supplements question

[cyanide_catharsis]

i have recently gotten back into going to the gym fairly regularly (4-5 times a week), however, i've started to experiment with some supplements to see if they will give me better results.

 

i haven't been using anything that may be unsafe, i went to my local vitamin world and got some advice on what to take.

 

my situation is: i'm not too concerned with bulking up my muscles, i would rather just tone and lose fat. i run about 3 miles a day (roughly 40-45min) on the elliptical and do another mile (10 min or so) on the treadmill. then i use the ab machine (increasing resistance every week) and do 3 or 4 sets of 25 reps. i don't usually do much more weightlifting.

 

i have been taking Extreme Trim, a thermogenic compound from vitamin world to help burn more fat, and a supplement called syntha 6 to help my muscles recover and rebuild quicker. is there anything else i should be taking? should i stop taking either one of these? or is there something better to take that will help me to burn fat?

 

any advice will be greatly appreciated!

[Feelin Frisky]

Crank.

 

 

 

But seriously, you don't need that stuff if you eat properly for your routine. There are so many products on the market and they are expensive. You'd have to be an expert to glean the meaning of the differences in ingredients. The only supplements I take expressly related to my work outs are protein powder and creatine. I also think ZMA really works. It's taken at bed time and helps one get a deeper and more restorative sleep. I don't take any of those caffeine or guarana or ginseng infused fat burners. Just stay away from pleasure eating and alcohol--consume planned functional food and give up on eating spur of the moment pleasure food.

[USMCHokie]

You really should be thinking about increasing the weightlifting component of your fitness training...you will notice significantly quicker results in fat loss and toning if you completely dropped the elliptical and treadmill from your training and did just weightlifting...remember, tone = bigger muscles + less fat...

 

You should have no worry about getting "too bulky"...just a common misconception with people new to weight training...it takes years of hard work to get remotely close to bulky...

 

So to answer your question, you don't need any supplements right now given your current workout. You don't even need the Syntha-6 crap because you're not really taxing your muscles at all. But if you were to ramp up your weightlifting, I'd recommend a protein, creatine, and nitric oxide (NO made the biggest difference for me...). I would also recommend BCCAs if you are on the slimmer side.

Edited June 22, 2010 by USMCHokie

[cyanide_catharsis]

You really should be thinking about increasing the weightlifting component of your fitness training...you will notice significantly quicker results in fat loss and toning if you completely dropped the elliptical and treadmill from your training and did just weightlifting...remember, tone = bigger muscles + less fat...

 

You should have no worry about getting "too bulky"...just a common misconception with people new to weight training...it takes years of hard work to get remotely close to bulky...

 

So to answer your question, you don't need any supplements right now given your current workout. You don't even need the Syntha-6 crap because you're not really taxing your muscles at all. But if you were to ramp up your weightlifting, I'd recommend a protein, creatine, and nitric oxide (NO made the biggest difference for me...). I would also recommend BCCAs if you are on the slimmer side.

 

USMC,

Any suggestions as to what sort of weight lifting routine I should do? Duration? Number of sets/reps? Specific workouts. I'm not really too educated on any sort of weightlifting routine, so I could use some advice.

 

Thanks!

[USMCHokie]

USMC,

Any suggestions as to what sort of weight lifting routine I should do? Duration? Number of sets/reps? Specific workouts. I'm not really too educated on any sort of weightlifting routine, so I could use some advice.

 

Thanks!

 

 

You should take a look back at some of the threads in the Physical Fitness Forum...especially posts by tman. He has some great workout ideas and plans for beginning weight trainers. I have noticed that him and I have slightly different approaches and training styles, and I find that his routines are slightly more beginner friendly and will give better results for beginning trainers.

[tman666]

Personally, I think that most supplements out there are little more than snake oil. The supplements that I take daily are fish oil, whey protein (post workout), and vitamin d. In my opinion, the bottom line when it comes to supplements is that while some may work for some people, your results are going to be influenced immeasurably more by your training, daily nutrition, and your recovery. Supplements are only the cherry on top. If you put a cherry on top of a sh*t milkshake, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a sh*t milkshake. If your training, ability to recover, and your nutrition are out of order, supplements won't make any appreciable difference.

 

What's your age, sex and weight? Don't be shy. I'm just interested to see what kind of training advice you get based on those parameters.

 

-------------------------------

 

Hokie! I thought we were on the exact same page when it came to training! Just kidding around of course, but I am interested in how, in your opinion, our training philosophies differ, and how mine are more "beginner friendly". I'm not calling you out or anything like that, but I am curious as to what differences you speak of.

[USMCHokie]

Hokie! I thought we were on the exact same page when it came to training! Just kidding around of course, but I am interested in how, in your opinion, our training philosophies differ, and how mine are more "beginner friendly". I'm not calling you out or anything like that, but I am curious as to what differences you speak of.

 

 

Heheh, no worries. Well, in the grand scheme of things, yes, I'd say our general training philosophy is identical. But given what I've seen from your recommended workout routines, exercises, and advice, I'd say that you are more of the powerlifter that favors bigger lifts and more total body exercises that build strength, whereas I tend to work out more from a bodybuilder's standpoint. I only very recently learned of the differences and nuances between the two after talking with a powerlifter at my gym. It's something I definitely want to try for a few months. Even the form of certain exercises is different (barbell bench press comes to mind) for the two training approaches.

 

Also, some of the exercises that I do tend to work better for more experienced trainers who have a solid basis of strength and balance. I like to add difficulty through instability, increased range of motion, and just strangeness (hahah, last night I did pullups with my brother that included throwing a 15 lb medicine ball as hard as you could at the person's stomach after each repetition while they were in the dead hang position...that was hella fun! ) instead of pure weight.

 

But I honestly believe that the total body exercises that you generally recommend (and that I don't do enough of) will be more effective for beginners since it gets more muscles working and creates a better muscle balance as opposed to more isolated workouts.

 

But please correct me if I'm wrong...

Edited June 22, 2010 by USMCHokie

[cyanide_catharsis]

 

What's your age, sex and weight? Don't be shy. I'm just interested to see what kind of training advice you get based on those parameters.

 

 

tman,

i'm a male, 24 years old, i currently weigh 184 lbs. i'm pretty much satisfied with my body, just would like to tone up my arms a bit, and i'm a little chubby around the midsection/abdominal area, i would really like to get rid of that.

 

suggestions? i've heard that cardio is the best for this?

[USMCHokie]

tman,

suggestions? i've heard that cardio is the best for this?

 

 

No, it isn't. I know Tman will agree with me on this, but you can probably completely ditch the cardio for now...except for maybe some High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) (i.e., sprint training) maybe once or twice a week...and replace it with heavy weight training...

[tman666]

Hokie, You're not wrong at all! That's pretty much spot on, actually. I wouldn't go as far to identify myself as a member of the powerlifting community, but I can see where my training philosophies (especially total body training methods) would put me more in line with them. This isn't to say that I don't use various bodybuilding principles in my own training. (Who doesn't like having big guns and calves?)

[tman666]

Cyanide,

 

Just as Hokie said, weights + HIIT is the answer you're looking for.

 

It doesn't have to be complicated either. 40 yard wind sprints are probably the most simple form of HIIT that you can do. The nice thing about sprints (as opposed to steady state cardio) is that they are generally muscle sparing and even anabolic (muscle building). Also, the intensity at which they are performed will ramp up your metabolism so high that you'll continue to burn fat for a long time after you're done working out. Another plus is that you can get an entire sprint workout done in less than 15 minutes...

 

With regards to weights, I recommend total body training for most beginners. With your volume (total number of reps) being fairly low, this allows you to train each muscle more often at higher intensity. Intensity, for the purposes of lifting weights, is defined by the load being lifted, but is also correlated to the amount of "stimulation" you're putting on yourself. I.E., shorter rest periods, heavier weights, faster sets.

 

Anyway, you may want to check out the thread called "Current workout/diet" or something to that effect by Sivok. I went through my own TBT training with him so he could see what I mean by total body training.

 

All in all, learning this stuff requires patience, hard work, and time under the barbell. Enjoy it as a journey and as a lifestyle. Don't view it as a "phase", or your successes will most likely be mediocre at best.

[Gold Pile]

If you increase the resistance on your ab work, you will be making them grow. Odd that you would only want to grow them. Some of us (me anyway) only tone the abs (no resistance adding) so as to have a slimmer waist. Won't win me a body builder contest but it looks good in daily life.

 

Adding some weight training is a great idea...you'll be burning calories even while you're resting and you'll get "cut" (highly toned) when combined with your cardio work. Protein is a must for the builder and you could get it from meals instead of supplements. I tried creatine and it did help lots, but I stopped because there is a SMALL group of experts that think it's risky. As you can see we have healthly looking creatine users here and they have a majority of experts backing them up. Over caution is just my way.

[tman666]

Creatine monohydrate is probably one of the most studied supplements available. It is safe to use. The only word of caution is that since it causes one to retain water, they may end up having a "puffier" appearance whilst fully loaded.

[cyanide_catharsis]

If you increase the resistance on your ab work, you will be making them grow. Odd that you would only want to grow them. Some of us (me anyway) only tone the abs (no resistance adding) so as to have a slimmer waist. Won't win me a body builder contest but it looks good in daily life.

 

 

gold,

i guess what i'm after is more what you are describing. not really trying to "grow" them, just have a small layer of fat on top of them that i would like to get rid of. i guess "toning" is what i'm going for.

 

any workouts that you perform to help get you decent results?

[USMCHokie]

gold,

i guess what i'm after is more what you are describing. not really trying to "grow" them, just have a small layer of fat on top of them that i would like to get rid of. i guess "toning" is what i'm going for.

 

any workouts that you perform to help get you decent results?

 

 

Remember, toning = bigger muscle + less fat...

 

So if you decide to achieve the toned look without increasing muscle mass, you will only achieve the skinny defined look...I have a pretty good idea of what you're looking for, and that requires you to increase the mass of your abnominal muscle in addition to losing the fat...

[Lecturer]

I agree with these guys on supplements. Most of the marketed, hyped, catchy-named products are just snake-oil. There is no magic product that will give you a dream body - just the dietary basics that will ensure you have the building blocks to do what you want.

 

Protein: We currently live in a carb-culture, as I call it, where refined carbs are cheap and everywhere. Consuming a surplus of carbs beyond those used to max out your liver and muscle glycol stores becomes body fat. Pretty much any person that wants to improve their body will need to increase their protein intake and decrease their carb intake. Protein supplements are a way to achieve the former. You could also start eating piles of lean meat. Some people do both, since protein is not all the same - it has different amino acid chains which do different things. Personally, I consume 1 scoop (about 30g) of ISO Whey Protein per day, since my regular diet lacks sufficient protein.

 

Creatine: Research shows it is safe. Like protein, creatine is a naturally occurring substance found in meat. Taking it as a supplement will generally do 1 of 2 possible things: it will do nothing at all, or it will cause your muscles to retain more water, making your muscles slightly larger (the puffier look hokie mentioned) AND increasing the amount of work your muscles can do, potentially leading to better workouts. I don't use creatine myself, but that is because I'm too cheap and because I want something sustainable... the improved results from creatine only last as long as you use it, and going off it can be unpleasant and bad for motivation.

 

Vitamins, etc: If you might be deficient in anything, taking supplemental vitamins is recommended. It is not uncommon for people to modify their diets to get the best physical results possible, but then realize their new diet lacks certain things. Vitamin C is actually a common deficiency when people try to re-balance their carb : protein ratios, since they are usually cutting out fruits and juices containing vitamin C. That said, if your diet remains a sufficient source of all basic vitamins and minerals, there is no need to take these supplements.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Lecturer

[USMCHokie]

Creatine: Research shows it is safe. Like protein, creatine is a naturally occurring substance found in meat. Taking it as a supplement will generally do 1 of 2 possible things: it will do nothing at all, or it will cause your muscles to retain more water, making your muscles slightly larger (the puffier look hokie mentioned) AND increasing the amount of work your muscles can do, potentially leading to better workouts. I don't use creatine myself, but that is because I'm too cheap and because I want something sustainable... the improved results from creatine only last as long as you use it, and going off it can be unpleasant and bad for motivation.

 

 

I agree with everything you've said, but I just wanted to make a few comments regarding creatine. First, credit goes to Tman for the "puffy look" statement. Second, creatine works. It allows your muscles to lift heavier weight sooner and more often, which in turn will naturally increase muscle mass. It also increases water retention which will make your muscles appear larger, albeit puffy. But the progress gained by supplementing with creatine is sustainable...you will never lose your gains in lean muscle mass and strength (although you may experience a temporary drop for the first week or two after coming off of it).

 

I think what you're thinking of in your last couple sentences is nitric oxide, which often includes creatine. And yes, I agree that it can be a bottomless pit once you start taking it. I will admit that I don't think I could ever get off of it, as my workouts would surely suffer. I've become a little too dependent on it for that jolt of energy it gives me just before a workout; but the results are there...

[tman666]

I agree with everything you've said, but I just wanted to make a few comments regarding creatine. First, credit goes to Tman for the "puffy look" statement. Second, creatine works. It allows your muscles to lift heavier weight sooner and more often, which in turn will naturally increase muscle mass. It also increases water retention which will make your muscles appear larger, albeit puffy. But the progress gained by supplementing with creatine is sustainable...you will never lose your gains in lean muscle mass and strength (although you may experience a temporary drop for the first week or two after coming off of it).

 

I think what you're thinking of in your last couple sentences is nitric oxide, which often includes creatine. And yes, I agree that it can be a bottomless pit once you start taking it. I will admit that I don't think I could ever get off of it, as my workouts would surely suffer. I've become a little too dependent on it for that jolt of energy it gives me just before a workout; but the results are there...

 

What brand of NO do you use? How long do you feel the effects afterward? Since I train in the evenings, I want to avoid something that would keep me up when I need to be racked. I've never used it, but you've piqued my interest.

 

I wish creatine worked for me . I personally never noticed any difference when I was on or off. Maybe a placebo "psychological" effect for the first couple of workouts, then nothing.

 

For me, as long as the metal is blaring, I can usually hold out the intensity long enough to get it done. By the time I'm done training and I have my post workout shake, I'm the friendliest dude on the planet. Before training though, it helps to go to that dark place within us all and think about all the illogical things that piss you off.

[Lecturer]

Yes, Hokie, it does WORK.. when it works . Tman seems to be exactly what I was talking about.. for some people it just doesn't seem to do anything. It's luck of the draw, but I think more people than not get good results.

 

I was speaking of Creatine - I'm actually not that well versed in Nitric Oxide. The situation of having a bad result (mostly psychological) when you go off creatine is only from what I've read and researched. Like I said, I haven't used creatine myself, so I can't say first hand. Basically, its not like you are worse than before you started.. you just get used to the added ability, and when you stop using it, you lose that extra benefit... and that sucks and when combined with a visible reduction in muscle size it can be de-motivational.

[USMCHokie]

What brand of NO do you use? How long do you feel the effects afterward? Since I train in the evenings, I want to avoid something that would keep me up when I need to be racked. I've never used it, but you've piqued my interest.

 

For all supplements, I never stick with one brand for very long, so I usually cycle through a few different brands. But with NO, I've been using USPLabs Jack3d lately, and it's my favorite of the bunch. I also use Gaspari SuperPump250, but Jack3d seems to be a bit better for me (more tingly feelings...hahah...). And yes, the caffeine loaded in NO cocktails will definitely keep you up for a few hours...I usually train around 7 PM, but I'm a night owl, so I'm downing Mountain Dew at night anyway...

 

 

I wish creatine worked for me . I personally never noticed any difference when I was on or off. Maybe a placebo "psychological" effect for the first couple of workouts, then nothing.

 

Well, the thing about creatine is that it's not a magic formula that gives you active benefits. That's why I made that comment in response to Lecturer's post thinking he was referring to NO. You don't feel creatine working...it won't give you any tangible boost like NO is intended to do... I find that it's more of a behind the scenes player...but you're right, different people respond differently to supplements.

 

 

For me, as long as the metal is blaring, I can usually hold out the intensity long enough to get it done. By the time I'm done training and I have my post workout shake, I'm the friendliest dude on the planet. Before training though, it helps to go to that dark place within us all and think about all the illogical things that piss you off.

 

Heh, I'm more of the giggly and social trainer nowadays...

[USMCHokie]

Yes, Hokie, it does WORK.. when it works . Tman seems to be exactly what I was talking about.. for some people it just doesn't seem to do anything. It's luck of the draw, but I think more people than not get good results.

 

I was speaking of Creatine - I'm actually not that well versed in Nitric Oxide. The situation of having a bad result (mostly psychological) when you go off creatine is only from what I've read and researched. Like I said, I haven't used creatine myself, so I can't say first hand. Basically, its not like you are worse than before you started.. you just get used to the added ability, and when you stop using it, you lose that extra benefit... and that sucks and when combined with a visible reduction in muscle size it can be de-motivational.

 

 

Agreed, people respond differently to supplements. But in regards to creatine, as stated in my previous post, I don't look at it as "go-juice" that gives me a boost during my workout. To be honest, before I started on nitric oxide and was just using creatine and protein, I didn't feel sh*t when I took creatine. It didn't provide any tangible feeling that affected my workouts, but I definitely noticed vast improvements in strength, stamina, and muscle mass over time...

[tman666]

Well, the thing about creatine is that it's not a magic formula that gives you active benefits. That's why I made that comment in response to Lecturer's post thinking he was referring to NO. You don't feel creatine working...it won't give you any tangible boost like NO is intended to do... I find that it's more of a behind the scenes player...but you're right, different people respond differently to supplements.

 

Yeah, perhaps I should have been more descriptive. I guess what I was trying to say is that I didn't notice any physical changes whatsoever when I was using creatine. I didn't even gain any water weight. Of course, the last time I used any creatine was years ago, so perhaps my memory is fuzzy. I just don't recall being overly impressed with the "dollars spent" to "perceived gains" ratio that I personally experienced. Let's just say that I've gotten by just fine without it since then. That's not to say that one should not give it a go and see how it works for them.

[Chocolat]

Not everyone responds to creatine. I sure don't. But if you want to try it, go for the Creatine Ethyl Ester form (rather than monohydrate) as it is better absorbed and (possibly) leads to less fluid retention.

[Bike_Ride]

I would see a doctor and see if you are deficient in anything. I wouldn't take the advice of a person who runs "vitamin world" to the Holy Word. Taking random supplements may just do nothing and take your money at the same time.

I have started power riding(distance and marathon) again and I just take an all purpose vitamin along with a Omega-3 supplement along with good, thought out eating habits with an occasional treat like Arby's on Fridays lol

 

Do you have a trainer?... Follow their advice about supplements before advice given by someone at "vitamin world" They want to sell stuff...remember that and good luck.

[GrayClouds]

Agreed, people respond differently to supplements. But in regards to creatine, as stated in my previous post, I don't look at it as "go-juice" that gives me a boost during my workout. To be honest, before I started on nitric oxide and was just using creatine and protein, I didn't feel sh*t when I took creatine. It didn't provide any tangible feeling that affected my workouts, but I definitely noticed vast improvements in strength, stamina, and muscle mass over time...

 

Most research suggest that it is a combination of sugar, stimulants and placebo effect giving you that boost from NO products:

 

http://www.jissn.com/content/7/1/16