how do you do it?

[mybrowneyedgirl]

Hi to my old friends. I read this board regularly but dont post much.

 

I am well on my way to divorce. xMM still tries to contact me but in my heart i decided i will not speak with him until his divorce is final.

 

NC for me was not to prove a point or provide an ultimatum. it was about separating myself from the situation in an attempt to get over him. i simply one day came to the realization that even a little bit of contact was keeping my heart involved.

 

not to say that im not still very much in love with him or that i dont wish that he would one day be with me and only me.

 

my question is this. i stopped reading his emails because although they were on the right track to saying what i want to hear, there has yet to be a final "im divorced i want you" type of statement. i felt like reading the emails was just keeping the wounds open.

 

well now i think im ready for that ultimatum. i would like him to know that i might be willing to re-investigate a R with him once hes finally divorced. but at the same time, i dont want to give any hints to him that i still care or give the impression that im waiting around.

 

im certainly not waiting around. and he only has a small piece of my heart instead of the whole thing. i dont want him to be aware of this because i think that if he knew he still had a part of me, that he would use it to his advantage.

 

so...do i write an email or do i just keep maintaining as usual? i read another's thread about her being scared he might think she had moved on completely and not approach her if he were to one day be available.

 

any thoughts?

[sadintexas]

Well, I think he knows what you need and when that day comes that his D is final he'll probably be looking for you (which will still probably be too soon). I think emotionally you're better off keeping it as it is.

 

If you feel you must contact him to let him know that, just be careful not to get sucked back in. It doesn't take much to go backwards.

[whichwayisup]

You say he's emailed you. Have you been ignoring his emails or have you replied back at all? If you're in NC, stay in NC..

 

Deal with what's on your plate now. Divorcing and healing, going through that transition without exMM at all. He is an EX, keep it that way. No need to contact him to feel out the situation, his situation at home etc..

 

Last thing you need to deal with once divorced is, still being his OW while he's married!

 

well now i think im ready for that ultimatum. i would like him to know that i might be willing to re-investigate a R with him once hes finally divorced. but at the same time, i dont want to give any hints to him that i still care or give the impression that im waiting around.

 

Don't do anything. Once you both are divorced, then talk. He knows you're divorcing I assume? And in some sense, even though you aren't letting him know or want him to think you're waiting for him - You are. Please be honest with yourself..

 

Make no decisions. Be single. Grieve and heal, you've been through alot. Why think of exMM during this process? ALOT has happened, much of it painful and cruel, alot of heartache and games, affair dynamic.. once the dust has cleared you may not want him as your boyfriend/husband in the future. Keep that in mind, how he's been, with you, his wife and everything else.

[mybrowneyedgirl]

i have not responded to his emails. in fact, i have stopped reading them because in my own mind i feel that by reading them it was keeping me hanging on.

 

i wrote this tonight because there was another attempt at contact from him, which i didnt no acknowledge or respond to.

 

i no longer feel like i am waiting for him. i have distanced myself completely, focused on my life and moved on. hes only a thought when he contacts me, which of course brings back feelings and thoughts.

 

i am single. have no thoughts of dating anyone. i just dont feel it inside. not that im closed off to it, but im not actively looking and havent had an offer that i would consider accepting.

 

i do however feel and have always felt if that one day we were both single i would re-evaluate things. there has been much hurt, much distance and many many things that im not sure i could ever forgive or forget. i dont know how i would feel about him now if we were together. i have no clue and i think there would be too much baggage there for it to work. BUT....i cant say i wouldnt be willing to exploring it IF we both were single and healed from our M ending.

 

i guess im just curious as to how to relay this information to him. my gut says just to keep my feelings inside and not share them. but a part of me wonders if he might take my complete NC and lack of response to mean that im unopen to him (which at the moment i am). what if he sees it as me not being open to trying under certain circumstances and never tells me if he finally does get to the point i was looking for?

[anne1707]

MBEG

 

This past year has been such a tremendous battle for you and there is no quick fix to all the emotions/pain you have experienced. However NC really can be a powerful tool in that recovery - every time there is contact the wound is opened up again, kept fresh.

 

So much of your battle has been the confusion about what to do and what you want. It looks like you have gained some better understanding of this but you are still contradicting yourself. If you give him an ulimatum, that is very clearly sending out the message that he has much more than a small part of you and that you care, yet you say you don't want him to know this. You cannot do one without the other. It may also give him the sense of some control over the situation (and you) leading him to try and manipulate you again (as you know he has in hindsight). You need to be strong, confident and in control of your own life - put yourself first and not him.

 

If he really wants you, he should respect your NC decision. Once he is divorced and if he truly wants you then he will do his best to find you. He is the one who has to prove himself and he should be able to do that without being told.

[cavedweller]

mybrowneyedgirl,

 

I disagree with the NC thing..

 

I would e-mail him and say something like this:

 

I still have srong feelings for you..Contact me when your divorce is final.

[Fallen Angel]

mybrowneyedgirl,

 

I disagree with the NC thing..

 

I would e-mail him and say something like this:

 

I still have srong feelings for you..Contact me when your divorce is final.

 

I agree whole-heartedly.

 

I have spoken to my sweetheart about the board, and asked him questions about different topics we discuss to try to get the "male perspective" and even more importantly, the "MM perspective" on the things we speak about. NC is one of the topics we have discussed.

 

I asked him if I were to say I had enough, and to contact me when he was divorced and then went NC, how that would make him feel, would it hurt or hinder him in doing what he needed to do to get divorced, would it make him question my love for him etc.

 

His answer was that he could see how NC was valuable to someone who wanted to end their relationship. He could see how it would help the healing. He could also see how NC would provide clarity for someone about what their true priorities are. And he could see the value of NC in helping someone who wasn't sure if they wanted to try again in their marriage, how it would give them a chance to try without the other person in the picture. He said at that point you would be forced to either really try and succeed, or you would figure out that you couldn't be without that other person in your life and decide to leave.

 

But, and here is what is important for you I think, he said that once the MP decided to divorce, continuation of NC could backfire on the OP. He said that for someone who was taking that big leap from the "safety" of their marriage, that not knowing that the other person still loved and valued them could be heartwrenching to the point that they could decide not to leave the marriage. A big part of why so many men stay in a bad marriage is simply because it is easier than the alternative. it is easier to share financial obligations, it is easier to share parenting obligations, it is easier to not have to tear apart a family, hurt the kids, split the dishes, split the friend group. it is easier to stay miserably married than to get a divorce. Simple truth for most men. It is easier on everyone involved, especially the kids, and it is better financialy.

 

Without the OP most of them would never leave. Not because they are happy and in love in the marriage, but it is easier on everyone involved. He said that LC is appropriate during that time, but keeping the MM in the dark as to any hope of a future may make him second guess his decissions. Not because he doesn't love the OP but because he will think, "Well, I have lost the woman I love. She doesn't love me or want to be with me anymore, so what is the point of destroying the family?" My sweetheart said that he would suggest you write to your MM and let him know that you are still interested in a fuure. That doesn't mean you make yourself available for him all the time, or that you just pick up where you left off, but that you let him know that you still love him, that you still are available for a full-time committed relationship (once your divorces are both final) and that you will not wait forever. He suggests you tell your MM that you are moving forward with your life, that you very much want him to move forward with you, but that you are still committed to moving forward, with or without him by your side.

 

In that way, you motivate him to stay on the right path. To make haste in continuing with his divorce, and yet you allow him to know that if he chooses not to do what he has to do, you are okay with moving on without him.

 

Anyway, hope it helps. hope you make whatever decisions work for you, and that you get your happily ever after. (Even if it is without this man.)

 

((hugs))

[lolapalooza]

Unless your MM has some sort of brain damage or learning disability, I'm sure he knows he can look you up once he's divorced. He's not a child. He was a big enough boy to have an affair. Surely he's big enough to give you a ring once he's free of obligations.

 

Or are you afraid he'll move on without you?

[bestplayer]

i have not responded to his emails. in fact, i have stopped reading them because in my own mind i feel that by reading them it was keeping me hanging on.

 

i wrote this tonight because there was another attempt at contact from him, which i didnt no acknowledge or respond to.

 

i no longer feel like i am waiting for him. i have distanced myself completely, focused on my life and moved on. hes only a thought when he contacts me, which of course brings back feelings and thoughts.

 

i am single. have no thoughts of dating anyone. i just dont feel it inside. not that im closed off to it, but im not actively looking and havent had an offer that i would consider accepting.

 

i do however feel and have always felt if that one day we were both single i would re-evaluate things. there has been much hurt, much distance and many many things that im not sure i could ever forgive or forget. i dont know how i would feel about him now if we were together. i have no clue and i think there would be too much baggage there for it to work. BUT....i cant say i wouldnt be willing to exploring it IF we both were single and healed from our M ending.

 

i guess im just curious as to how to relay this information to him. my gut says just to keep my feelings inside and not share them. but a part of me wonders if he might take my complete NC and lack of response to mean that im unopen to him (which at the moment i am). what if he sees it as me not being open to trying under certain circumstances and never tells me if he finally does get to the point i was looking for?

 

well you should certainly let him know that you are open to him , especially when you have finally decided to dump your husband for him .

[White Flower]

mybrowneyedgirl,

 

I disagree with the NC thing..

 

I would e-mail him and say something like this:

 

I still have srong feelings for you..Contact me when your divorce is final.

 

And perhaps add that you will be pursuing love when D is final and if he's D'd and available you would consider pursuing it with HIM then and only then.

[sadintexas]

But, and here is what is important for you I think, he said that once the MP decided to divorce, continuation of NC could backfire on the OP. He said that for someone who was taking that big leap from the "safety" of their marriage, that not knowing that the other person still loved and valued them could be heartwrenching to the point that they could decide not to leave the marriage.

 

 

People get divorced every day without a built in safety net. While this sounds oh so logical and well thought out, it still reeks of selfishness. It shows his inability to stand on his own and do the hard thing because it's the RIGHT thing.

 

And do you really want to be the person that "takes" a man away from his family? If he would stay otherwise, do you really want to be that woman?

[sadintexas]

my gut says just to keep my feelings inside and not share them. but a part of me wonders if he might take my complete NC and lack of response to mean that im unopen to him (which at the moment i am). what if he sees it as me not being open to trying under certain circumstances and never tells me if he finally does get to the point i was looking for?

 

I think in your heart you already know what you want to do, or what you feel is the right thing. While the only "right" answer here is the one that is best for you and determined by you, part of me feels there's still that "what if" scenario playing in your mind. You're afraid a chance might slip by. I think you have to ask yourself, a chance at what? Your feelings about him and a future are mixed at best right now. Can you even tell him wholeheartedly that you would like to try if all things work out as they should? Or can you just offer a possibility of trying it?

 

You've been doing well at moving on, and contact by him is what drags you back into this. Keep moving forward with your life. When contacting him is the right thing for you, I don't think you'll question it.

[mybrowneyedgirl]

thanks for the advice from both sides. everyone has some very valid points. i guess there is no safe way to play this. keep talking! you are all giving me some great things to think about.

[anne1707]

True - there is always a risk in life (which is why it can be so good).

 

You need to figure out what risks you are prepared to take

 

1 Give him the ultimatum - it may give him the hope/motivation to be with you and make that effort or he may "use" this to his advantage to play you

 

2 Not give him the ultimatum - you may risk losing him but you could be stronger, more able to cope with the future and what it has to offer because you are finding yourself again through NC

 

Nobody can tell you what to do - only you can decide whether he is worth the risk or not. Whatever you do decide to do, put yourself first at the moment. He needs to prove himself and that he is genuine before you do otherwise.

[Fallen Angel]

People get divorced every day without a built in safety net. While this sounds oh so logical and well thought out, it still reeks of selfishness. It shows his inability to stand on his own and do the hard thing because it's the RIGHT thing.

 

And do you really want to be the person that "takes" a man away from his family? If he would stay otherwise, do you really want to be that woman?

 

People do get divorced every day without a safety net, and many people stay everyday in an unhappy marriage that is unhealthy and unhappy for both partners, simply because it is the easy choice.

 

For someone who struggles with breaking up a family, even though they are very unhappy, knowing that the person they love is there and still loving them could/would be the motivation to do the tough work that divorce is. Just saying..

[mybrowneyedgirl]

i think for now i'll just keep my mouth shut when it comes to him and press on. its all i can do...

[MizFit]

People get divorced every day without a built in safety net. While this sounds oh so logical and well thought out, it still reeks of selfishness. It shows his inability to stand on his own and do the hard thing because it's the RIGHT thing.

 

And do you really want to be the person that "takes" a man away from his family? If he would stay otherwise, do you really want to be that woman?

 

People ARE selfish...men in particular. I know very few men who would say they weren't selfish and very few that have been, or are in, Ms that would want to be alone when it ended. Every day of our lives, in every aspect of our lives we run into people who are making decisions by not making decisions. In all honesty that is selfish because they will never have to be held accountable for their decisions.

 

No woman 'takes' a man from his family. Every time he steps out the door to see the OW, every phone call he makes, every text he sends, every thought he sends her way is a conscious choice. He 'leaves' his family for that length of time. He takes a risk and in his mind he calculates it and moves forward on that assessment. He may well not have a real clue the fallout of what he is doing, but the bottom line is that somewhere in his mind he looks at it like - if I go and spend this time with OW and get caught then W could find out and that could be the end of things. Fog...whatever...the risks are still there and if they weren't concerned about risks they wouldn't be hiding it. If OW were a ONS or a hooker he would be 'leaving' for that time as well...the common denominator he is choosing to seek something else for whatever the reasons and he is aware of the risks in doing so.

 

MBEG can not take a person that has not made a conscious decision to go with her.

[sadintexas]

Apparently you've missed the point of my post. First, it wasn't aimed at MBEG, it was in response to FA's MM's opinion on the subject.

 

I thought it was quite ironic that the words came straight from a horse's mouth on the subject. It was basically, "I'm going to do what's most comfortable for ME. I can leave my W as long as OW is there to comfort me and pick up the pieces, but if she won't, then I may very well cowar back into my M because I'm not strong enough to do it on my own." Of course, it was not that pointed but the message is clearly there.

 

So to me, if a MM would stay put in his M without the interference of an OW, then OW is by all rights "taking" from his family. Without her, he would stay in his family.

 

It is the same selfish "it's all about me and my comfort and what I need" attitude that makes them cheaters in the first place. People who don't cheat, who have failed marriages, divorce and move on. They don't waffle in this indefinite indecision and game playing (even if it's subconcious) that affects both the family and the OW.

 

Of course MM is taking a calculated risk in participating in an A. That's irrelevant and an entire topic that can be debated on its own merits.

[MizFit]

Apparently you've missed the point of my post. First, it wasn't aimed at MBEG, it was in response to FA's MM's opinion on the subject.

 

I thought it was quite ironic that the words came straight from a horse's mouth on the subject. It was basically, "I'm going to do what's most comfortable for ME. I can leave my W as long as OW is there to comfort me and pick up the pieces, but if she won't, then I may very well cowar back into my M because I'm not strong enough to do it on my own." Of course, it was not that pointed but the message is clearly there.

I'm assuming you're speaking of me in this instance...if that isn't the case then disregard. This horse's mouth had a husband that cheated on her...we were madly in love (so I thought) and we had a 3 year old child...he cheated on me and I ended the marriage. Would he have waffled...without a doubt in my mind because he was already begging me to forgive him and take him back and to make sure the next time the sun came up it was purple. He would never have made a choice...one of us would have had to make it for him. In an ideal world we all would be strong enough to do just that in every instance of our lives, but we're not. Your message was loud and clear and that is exactly why I responded.

 

So to me, if a MM would stay put in his M without the interference of an OW, then OW is by all rights "taking" from his family. Without her, he would stay in his family.

How is that 'taking'? If she is interfering it is because he is allowing it. He is making a conscious decision in every step he takes in the A, just as he is the M, just as he is every other aspect of his life. No one has the ability to take a person. I can't imagine there isn't anyone who can't resist the interference of an OW if they are truly looking to save their family. At the end of the day she can email or call or text and all he has to do is change contact info and do the right things. Once again it's about the MM, not the OW. The only time I disagree with that is when there are stalker, bunny boilers on the front and then it becomes legal (or war).

 

It is the same selfish "it's all about me and my comfort and what I need" attitude that makes them cheaters in the first place. People who don't cheat, who have failed marriages, divorce and move on. They don't waffle in this indefinite indecision and game playing (even if it's subconcious) that affects both the family and the OW.

I agree with you it makes them cheaters, but it also makes them human. We may have this idealistic view that we are all paragons of strength, but we're not. More people than not tend to look for the easy way out of things...in all aspects of life.

 

Of course MM is taking a calculated risk in participating in an A. That's irrelevant and an entire topic that can be debated on its own merits.

I beg to differ, but on the comments I made it was completely relevent...to the full thread probably not so much.

I do agree it would be an interesting thread on it's own.

 

I do apologize...I thought you were responding to MBEG, but it does not change my thoughts and opinion.

 

My responses to individual comments above in bold.

[sadintexas]

Still reading, but no the horse's mouth was FA's MM which is what that response you initially quoted was based on.

[sadintexas]

It won't let me quote since you responded in a quote of mine so I'll have to try to answer by memory.

 

Go back and read post #7 by Fallen Angel. This is what my follow up post (the one you initially quoted) was in response to. It is her recounting her MM's opinion on NC. Although he sounds intelligent, his opinion is still very biased, promoting the comfort of the MM. I think it is ironic that the MM is basically admitting that it is about him and how it works best for HIM.

 

He basically says that NC getting a MM to the point of D can be a good thing for a number of reasons, but once he wants to D, the OW not contacting or supporting him can backfire. In essense, if OW is not there taking care of MM, he will cowar back into his M. Why? Because he will choose the path of least resistance. He will choose safety and comfort so OW has to be available and prepared to provide that in order for him to leave.

 

People that are not as self centered as cheaters make the decision to end marriages every day. They do it alone, many without any comfort or safety on the horizon. But they do it because it is the best thing given whatever circumstances they find themselves in.

 

Your experience in your M was much like mine. I didn't end my M right away from the cheating, but I did end it. I didn't have anyone waiting (and I don't think you did but won't make assumptions). I had the support of my friends and family, but not another man. I actually found it quite impossible to entertain the idea of even dating for over a year after I left my H.

 

But back to the point, you're right in that the MM is as culpable, actually more so, than OW in destroying his M and/or family. An OW can't "take" him kicking and screaming from his home, no. However; she can "take" him in the sense that without her, the marriage would remain together.

 

I suppose this is somewhat irrelevant anyway because in most cases MM aren't going to truly consider divorcing their spouses. It was just entertaining for me to read the words coming directly from a MM. While I can see it sounding logical to people involved in the A, now being on the outside of one, I can see it for what it is.

[silverplanets]

Hi to my old friends. I read this board regularly but dont post much.

 

I am well on my way to divorce. xMM still tries to contact me but in my heart i decided i will not speak with him until his divorce is final.

 

NC for me was not to prove a point or provide an ultimatum. it was about separating myself from the situation in an attempt to get over him. i simply one day came to the realization that even a little bit of contact was keeping my heart involved.

 

not to say that im not still very much in love with him or that i dont wish that he would one day be with me and only me.

 

my question is this. i stopped reading his emails because although they were on the right track to saying what i want to hear, there has yet to be a final "im divorced i want you" type of statement. i felt like reading the emails was just keeping the wounds open.

 

well now i think im ready for that ultimatum. i would like him to know that i might be willing to re-investigate a R with him once hes finally divorced. but at the same time, i dont want to give any hints to him that i still care or give the impression that im waiting around.

 

im certainly not waiting around. and he only has a small piece of my heart instead of the whole thing. i dont want him to be aware of this because i think that if he knew he still had a part of me, that he would use it to his advantage.

 

so...do i write an email or do i just keep maintaining as usual? i read another's thread about her being scared he might think she had moved on completely and not approach her if he were to one day be available.

 

any thoughts?

 

MBEG ..

 

IMHO you don't do it.

 

His marriage, his life is HIS responsibility.

 

Going back/re-opening communications will only stall your journey of healing.

 

I am sure he knows where you are and IF he does become single then nothing in the world will stop him contacing you if he wants to.

 

You don't owe him anything at this stage ..., he OWE's you, himself and his wife something ... he owe's you all to behave as an adult and make choices (for himself !!!) and see them through.

 

That's what being an adult is ! And your job is not to save him from that.

 

This is not a question of him knowing if you love him ... this is a question of does he love you and is he a decent person.

 

If so, then imho, he will want to be with you and won't want to make another person's life (his wife's) a lie .... so he will do what is necessary.

 

If he doesn't love you enough to take that risk then how much is his love really worth?

 

NC also shows him that you have integrity, are not willing to play that game any more and are a decent person ... again, he will work that out for himself.

 

In my experience of NC urges like this came and went, but after each one I was more distant from them ... so the urge was almost like a last pang of one more stage of letting go.

 

At 9 months NC I fully recognise that nothing, other than them , has ever been in the way of them getting a divorce, becoming single and making an HONEST approach to me.

 

And, to be honest, I value myself enough now to know I deserve honest approaches. :)

 

Be safe

Chris

[silverplanets]

I agree whole-heartedly.

 

I have spoken to my sweetheart about the board, and asked him questions about different topics we discuss to try to get the "male perspective" and even more importantly, the "MM perspective" on the things we speak about. NC is one of the topics we have discussed.

 

I asked him if I were to say I had enough, and to contact me when he was divorced and then went NC, how that would make him feel, would it hurt or hinder him in doing what he needed to do to get divorced, would it make him question my love for him etc.

 

His answer was that he could see how NC was valuable to someone who wanted to end their relationship. He could see how it would help the healing. He could also see how NC would provide clarity for someone about what their true priorities are. And he could see the value of NC in helping someone who wasn't sure if they wanted to try again in their marriage, how it would give them a chance to try without the other person in the picture. He said at that point you would be forced to either really try and succeed, or you would figure out that you couldn't be without that other person in your life and decide to leave.

 

But, and here is what is important for you I think, he said that once the MP decided to divorce, continuation of NC could backfire on the OP. He said that for someone who was taking that big leap from the "safety" of their marriage, that not knowing that the other person still loved and valued them could be heartwrenching to the point that they could decide not to leave the marriage. A big part of why so many men stay in a bad marriage is simply because it is easier than the alternative. it is easier to share financial obligations, it is easier to share parenting obligations, it is easier to not have to tear apart a family, hurt the kids, split the dishes, split the friend group. it is easier to stay miserably married than to get a divorce. Simple truth for most men. It is easier on everyone involved, especially the kids, and it is better financialy.

 

Without the OP most of them would never leave. Not because they are happy and in love in the marriage, but it is easier on everyone involved. He said that LC is appropriate during that time, but keeping the MM in the dark as to any hope of a future may make him second guess his decissions. Not because he doesn't love the OP but because he will think, "Well, I have lost the woman I love. She doesn't love me or want to be with me anymore, so what is the point of destroying the family?" My sweetheart said that he would suggest you write to your MM and let him know that you are still interested in a fuure. That doesn't mean you make yourself available for him all the time, or that you just pick up where you left off, but that you let him know that you still love him, that you still are available for a full-time committed relationship (once your divorces are both final) and that you will not wait forever. He suggests you tell your MM that you are moving forward with your life, that you very much want him to move forward with you, but that you are still committed to moving forward, with or without him by your side.

 

In that way, you motivate him to stay on the right path. To make haste in continuing with his divorce, and yet you allow him to know that if he chooses not to do what he has to do, you are okay with moving on without him.

 

Anyway, hope it helps. hope you make whatever decisions work for you, and that you get your happily ever after. (Even if it is without this man.)

 

((hugs))

 

FA - so that we may understand the context of his advice ...

 

Is he actually getting D'd? or is this conjecture about what he thinks he might feel???

 

It's just that, for me, this makes a huge difference to how much weight I would put on his words???

 

be safe

Chris

[MizFit]

It won't let me quote since you responded in a quote of mine so I'll have to try to answer by memory.

 

Go back and read post #7 by Fallen Angel. This is what my follow up post (the one you initially quoted) was in response to. It is her recounting her MM's opinion on NC. Although he sounds intelligent, his opinion is still very biased, promoting the comfort of the MM. I think it is ironic that the MM is basically admitting that it is about him and how it works best for HIM.

Apologies and I do see your point...however, whether or not he said it I think it is very much human nature. I do see where you were coming from though!

 

He basically says that NC getting a MM to the point of D can be a good thing for a number of reasons, but once he wants to D, the OW not contacting or supporting him can backfire. In essense, if OW is not there taking care of MM, he will cowar back into his M. Why? Because he will choose the path of least resistance. He will choose safety and comfort so OW has to be available and prepared to provide that in order for him to leave.

I agree with you, but I think that most people will choose that very same path and I agree that after putting the hurt and time into it I have no problem with the OW keeping LC and being some support. It is often said that an A is like an addiction...any addiction needs help to be able to kick. Even 12 step programs have sponsors to get you through the toughest of times...I know someone will come back and say isn't it like an alcoholic having a bottle of vodka as a sponsor? To a degree yes, but that's why I feel LC is perfectly acceptable.

 

People that are not as self centered as cheaters make the decision to end marriages every day. They do it alone, many without any comfort or safety on the horizon. But they do it because it is the best thing given whatever circumstances they find themselves in.

I agree, but stand firm in that many people (seems to be lots of men in particular) are not designed to be alone and they will stay comfortable rather than venture out alone unless there is a huge impetus for it to happen. I use the job situation...if someone has a job that is paying the bills, but they still dream about that 'other job' then they have a choice...find a way to get that other job and jump off the cliff by getting rid of the current job. I firmly think more people will stay where they are and happily pay their bills and always wonder. I'm in no way saying that all MM who have had an A end are sitting around daydreaming about the A or the OW...I am saying it about the job situation as a comparison.

 

Your experience in your M was much like mine. I didn't end my M right away from the cheating, but I did end it. I didn't have anyone waiting (and I don't think you did but won't make assumptions). I had the support of my friends and family, but not another man. I actually found it quite impossible to entertain the idea of even dating for over a year after I left my H.

You're absolutely correct...no one in my life and I was almost 3 years before I had a date. I always met men for lunch because my son was the priority and I wanted the time with him in the evening. I am not one of the people who sit around about jobs or relationships...if it's done or there is something that is truly important I will do it. It's taken me a lot of years and some very strange relationships and friendships to get me to realize not everyone lives to that standard I hold. And even more traumatic-I CAN'T CHANGE THEM! UGH...for a relative control freak that is horrifying!

 

But back to the point, you're right in that the MM is as culpable, actually more so, than OW in destroying his M and/or family. An OW can't "take" him kicking and screaming from his home, no. However; she can "take" him in the sense that without her, the marriage would remain together.

I will respectfully disagree with that. Either party can say 'enough' at any given time and it can end. He says no and she is no longer taking him. If anyone I was involved with acted like you're describing he would be...I'd be outta there. Oh yeah...it did happen and I was. I theoretically understand what you're saying, but I do disagree and think it's taking the owness off the WS.

 

I suppose this is somewhat irrelevant anyway because in most cases MM aren't going to truly consider divorcing their spouses. It was just entertaining for me to read the words coming directly from a MM. While I can see it sounding logical to people involved in the A, now being on the outside of one, I can see it for what it is.

I would imagine that most MM would say just those words and I also think they truly believe them...that is where they see themselves and what they would need. I don't think they are thinking deeply...as a friend of mine who was a WS many years ago...he wasn't going to leave his wife without having someone else there. He said he wouldn't move out of his house without another ready to move into and he wouldn't quit his job without another one lined up...why would he be any different with relationships? This from a man who did cheat and is still in a long happy marriage with his OW. Keep in mind that isn't what I would do, but at the end of the day many people do and it is truly that simple in their minds.

 

Thanks for the chat sad...I enjoy conversations like this. I'm always amazed at how much I take away with me.

[sadintexas]

Ah ha! Now we're getting somewhere. You said "I theoretically understand what you're saying, but I do disagree and think it's taking the owness off the WS."

 

Exactly! My reference to "taking" was basically reiterating what FA's MM said. Theoretically MM would stay in their M's if the OW wasn't there providing them support to leave. That makes them (OW) the "takers" according to HIM! LOL So my question (intended to actually be somewhat rhetorical) posed in that particular post was basically "If what MM says is true, do you want to be the person with the power to leave his M intact or to get him out of it?"

 

I would say NO! He's a grown man and needs to make his own choices. But isn't that what these A's are often about anyway? It's about their inability to make difficult choices to get out and/or do hard introspective work needed to actually make the M work, so they coast along in a manner that is most beneficial to them. Sure, it might all blow up on him one day and to the shock of most OW, they scramble to try to save their M's. And if the W makes the choice for them to end the M, then he still has OW to pick up the pieces.

 

So using the job analogy, if the guy stays in job #1 and only fantasizes about job #2, he's made a choice. If he leaves job #1 for job #2, he's made a choice. If he sneaks away from job #1 to do work on job #2, the only choice he's made is to not make a definitive commitment and to try to have the best of both worlds. He's losing nothing and getting paid by both! That was the only part left out of your analogy. And it's the only part that truly pertains to an A.

 

Similarly, in addiction do you think there's a reason why people have sponsers who have been sober for a while? People who have walked that path and have come out the other side? Think about that. Sure support is needed, but not from another recovering alcoholic that doesn't have the time, experience and recovery under his belt. That's like putting two alcoholics in a room with a bottle of whiskey and expecting them not to drink it.

 

I've enjoyed the chat as well. Always interesting to delve into these topics further. MBEG, I'm sorry if we've threadjacked here. I didn't intend to get so deep into this one

Edited June 27, 2010 by sadintexas