how do you do it?

[MizFit]

Ah ha! Now we're getting somewhere. You said "I theoretically understand what you're saying, but I do disagree and think it's taking the owness off the WS."

 

Exactly! My reference to "taking" was basically reiterating what FA's MM said. Theoretically MM would stay in their M's if the OW wasn't there providing them support to leave. That makes them (OW) the "takers" according to HIM! LOL So my question (intended to actually be somewhat rhetorical) posed in that particular post was basically "If what MM says is true, do you want to be the person with the power to leave his M intact or to get him out of it?"

Gotcha...I see now and I apologize for the initial misunderstanding on who was quoting what and where!

 

I would say NO! He's a grown man and needs to make his own choices. But isn't that what these A's are often about anyway? It's about their inability to make difficult choices to get out and/or do hard introspective work needed to actually make the M work, so they coast along in a manner that is most beneficial to them. Sure, it might all blow up on him one day and to the shock of most OW, they scramble to try to save their M's. And if the W makes the choice for them to end the M, then he still has OW to pick up the pieces.

Yup...you have just described what I think is just the nature of so very many people in this world to a T. I was a BS and heard the start of the promises and scrambling to get back into the M...to me that was the ultimate insult. The ultimate risk to a MM (mine anyways) was to lose it all and he did. When he chose to cheat on me he calculated his risks knowing I could well end it. To me that equates to him being prepared to end the M. If I jump out of a plane with a parachute I am going to calculate my risks and pray and hope and check every safety point going, but it is always a risk that I could plummet to my death. By jumping out of that plane I am assuming that could possibly happen and I must be prepared on some level to accept that and hope that the odds will be with me like they are with most people. Hope you're liking all of my comparisons and analogies!

 

So using the job analogy, if the guy stays in job #1 and only fantasizes about job #2, he's made a choice. If he leaves job #1 for job #2, he's made a choice. If he sneaks away from job #1 to do work on job #2, the only choice he's made is to not make a definitive commitment and to try to have the best of both worlds. He's losing nothing and getting paid by both! That was the only part left out of your analogy. And it's the only part that truly pertains to an A.

But he isn't going to leave the first without the secnod sorted...if something unexpected happens-layoffs (wife finding out and booting him out the door) then he may choose to try desperately to keep a job at the familiar spot, in any form it's offered, or he may then take the plunge. I think most of the people in the situation most MM are in would stay with the familiar. Yup...moonlighting is absolutely fine unless your employer has a policy against it and cans your backside. Then you are in the same situation as a WS who has been caught.

 

Similarly, in addiction do you think there's a reason why people have sponsers who have been sober for a while? People who have walked that path and have come out the other side? Think about that. Sure support is needed, but not from another recovering alcoholic that doesn't have the time, experience and recovery under his belt. That's like putting two alcoholics in a room with a bottle of whiskey and expecting them not to drink it.

That's why I made the comment about the bottle of vodka being the sponsor...in all honesty I have never been a supporter of the addiction theory. At least no more so in the context of an A than any other sort of 'love' relationship. I was just kind of making the point that there may need to be some support...if my MM were to tell me tomorrow that he was leaving his W I would say fine...limit contact to a couple of emails a week and no calls. No talking about the future...just how the kids are doing and if you're making progress-no details. I would not turn my back on him...if he made that decision to D with the idea of us being together there is not an iota of anything that says it would be common sense to go NC. If he was kicked out then that could well be different...it might be extra light contact (can you tell I diet a lot?)...but even then I wouldn't drop out of his life totally unless he wanted it. In my view NC is when you're at the point the relationship must end. It is unequivocal. If an MM is D'ing the relationship is not going to end...it may end...it may morph...it may fizzle and gradually end. I wouldn't go NC and assume in my mind it's going to end. I can pull myself together, keep my life going happily along going LC rather than NC.

 

Thank sad...answers in bold.

[Ellin]

Hi, Mybrowneyedgirl!

 

I was once in a similar situation. I was free, the man I loved was about to get D. I wanted him to tell me that we definitely had a future, but he didn't. Something went wrong between us and I didn't know what was going on, so I tried to contact him to find out, but he avoided me. When we finally spoke I didn't like the outcome and I moved on. I still loved him.

 

He tried to get in touch months later. I ignored him. He tried again and again some more months later. I ignored him again. The first time I still could have changed my mind but later it was too late, as I was pregnant.

 

Then I bumped into him. He saw me pregnant and looked shocked but he still wanted to maintain contact. I didn't.

 

A few years later I met him again. That time I was D, but he had moved on. When he heard I was available he seemed to feel regret about how things had turned out. Then I felt regret too. It was crushing.

 

I found out that he had tried to get in touch with me because he realised that I was the woman he wanted and when I wasn't replying he stayed single for 2 or 3 years (it was definitely over between him and his xW). But he believed I had moved on completely.

 

The pain of the whole thing is that I never really stopped loving him.

[Chrome Barracuda]

All her time her mbeg and been crying so hard to get this so called man's attention, focused solely on her affair and now after her ex has dumped her and is divorcing her because he deserves better than some cheating chick.

 

Now she acts like she doesnt want this MM? is she out of the fog, has she seen the MM's true colors? i dont get it.

 

All that pain, lying , cheating, destruction and upheaval, and what it was all for nothing?

[LucreziaBorgia]

so...do i write an email or do i just keep maintaining as usual? i read another's thread about her being scared he might think she had moved on completely and not approach her if he were to one day be available

 

I would simply forward each email back to him with the same message:

 

Are you divorced? No? We have nothing further to discuss. When you are divorced, email me. Otherwise, I have no other option but to move forward with my life without you.

 

That gets across the message that

 

a. The only way he gets to be with you is to be divorced

b. Should he choose to stay married, then you are choosing to move on

 

There really isn't room for much more discussion there.

Edited June 27, 2010 by LucreziaBorgia

[BB07]

I would simply forward each email back to him with the same message:

 

Are you divorced? No? We have nothing further to discuss. When you are divorced, email me. Otherwise, I have no other option but to move forward with my life without you.

 

That gets across the message that

 

a. The only way he gets to be with you is to be divorced

b. Should he choose to stay married, then you are choosing to move on

 

There really isn't room for much more discussion there.

 

 

I really like Lucrezia's advice........simple and to the point. Sometimes simple is best!

[GreenEyedLady]

so...do i write an email or do i just keep maintaining as usual? i read another's thread about her being scared he might think she had moved on completely and not approach her if he were to one day be available.

 

any thoughts?

 

I would have to say that you really don't love him and want to be with him. You just think you do.

 

Or you wouldn't leave him when he needs you most.

 

I really don't understand why OW do this. You tell the MM you can't stay with him until he's fully D and expect him to make a big leap that SHOWS he's serious. He has to be FULLY divorced. Hell, YOU ARE NOT EVEN fully divorced.

 

If you really loved him and thought he was the one for you, there is NO WAY you'd refrain from answering his emails. I think you should see your feelings for what they are: you've moved on.

 

Wild horses couldn't keep me and my H away from each other. A piece of paper (M) doesn't keep OW from seeing a MM. So why is that OTHER piece of paper (D) become so important?

 

GEL

[BB07]

I would have to say that you really don't love him and want to be with him. You just think you do.

 

Or you wouldn't leave him when he needs you most.

 

I really don't understand why OW do this. You tell the MM you can't stay with him until he's fully D and expect him to make a big leap that SHOWS he's serious. He has to be FULLY divorced. Hell, YOU ARE NOT EVEN fully divorced.

 

If you really loved him and thought he was the one for you, there is NO WAY you'd refrain from answering his emails. I think you should see your feelings for what they are: you've moved on.

 

Wild horses couldn't keep me and my H away from each other. A piece of paper (M) doesn't keep OW from seeing a MM. So why is that OTHER piece of paper (D) become so important?

 

GEL

 

GEL......I think it's unique to each situation. I'm not familiar with MBEG's situation, but a lot of OW....feel as if they are being strung along and they begin to doubt the MM's word in that he says he will leave. A person can only allow themselves so much false hope before there comes a time when you need some proof, some action that it's really going to happen. It's also about our own personal pain, how much is too much before you have to walk the other way.

 

I think MBEG.....is struggling with wanting the MM to know that she is leaving the door open a crack, but yet she wants him to know that he has to be the one to really open the door, and that he is the only one who has the key to open it all the way up.

 

It's a very difficult position to be in, of course we want to love and support the person that we care about, but yet there has to be something there to make us believe that there is a reason. Blind faith can only go so far.

 

[BB07]

Just wanted to add this to my thoughts.....when my stbdmm and I begin seeing each other again, he was several months into the separation. I thought.....great, most of the bad stuff is behind him. Wrong:(.......in fact most of the difficult stuff was in front of us, but I have chosen to stick with him and by him and I will continue to do so, but the difference between way back then and now is I'm sure that I am part of his future. If I didn't feel sure about it......I couldn't do it. At this point in my life it would be too great of a risk and too painful and I just could not put myself through that agony again.

[GreenEyedLady]

GEL......I think it's unique to each situation. I'm not familiar with MBEG's situation, but a lot of OW....feel as if they are being strung along and they begin to doubt the MM's word in that he says he will leave. A person can only allow themselves so much false hope before there comes a time when you need some proof, some action that it's really going to happen. It's also about our own personal pain, how much is too much before you have to walk the other way.

 

I think MBEG.....is struggling with wanting the MM to know that she is leaving the door open a crack, but yet she wants him to know that he has to be the one to really open the door, and that he is the only one who has the key to open it all the way up.

 

It's a very difficult position to be in, of course we want to love and support the person that we care about, but yet there has to be something there to make us believe that there is a reason. Blind faith can only go so far.

 

 

If you can't trust the person, you shouldn't be with him, period.

 

I think MBEG's situation is different in that she too is getting divorced. I think her uncertainty is with HER, though. Not necessarily about MM.

 

Also, what do you think his W is saying? "Look, she doesn't care about you, she's not standing by you the way I have stood by you all these years. You threw our M away for someone who didn't even want you."

 

What do actions show? Desertion, abandonment. Evidence in what the W says.

 

And who's he still dealing with? His W. Who is still there.

 

I think it's pretty clear. And why more MM don't leave. They don't want to look like idiots to their friends and families that they gave up their "perfect" life to be dumped by the OW.

 

GEL

[flutterbykiss]

I think MBEG.....is struggling with wanting the MM to know that she is leaving the door open a crack, but yet she wants him to know that he has to be the one to really open the door, and that he is the only one who has the key to open it all the way up.

 

 

That feeling isn't unique to OP. I think anyone in any problematic relationship struggles to communicate this idea to the person that has hurt them. In the past I have wasted so much energy on attempts to communicate how I felt by my actions and it always failed miserably. The only way for MBEG to guarantee that the MM knows how she feels is to tell him. By all means back your words up with your actions (if you say NC then NC but only say it if you means it 100%) but, in my experience, any and ALL attempts to hint or manipulate backfire big time because you can never predict how another individual will interpret anything

[BB07]

If you can't trust the person, you shouldn't be with him, period.

 

I think MBEG's situation is different in that she too is getting divorced. I think her uncertainty is with HER, though. Not necessarily about MM.

 

Also, what do you think his W is saying? "Look, she doesn't care about you, she's not standing by you the way I have stood by you all these years. You threw our M away for someone who didn't even want you."

 

What do actions show? Desertion, abandonment. Evidence in what the W says.

 

And who's he still dealing with? His W. Who is still there.

 

I think it's pretty clear. And why more MM don't leave. They don't want to look like idiots to their friends and families that they gave up their "perfect" life to be dumped by the OW.

 

GEL

 

I didn't realize that MBEG's situation was as complicated as it is. I get his hesitation if she isn't free and clear herself.

[sadintexas]

I think it's pretty clear. And why more MM don't leave. They don't want to look like idiots to their friends and families that they gave up their "perfect" life to be dumped by the OW.

 

GEL

 

I agree they don't want to look like idiots and fear of the unknown can be a large factor into making the decision not the leave the M. But realistically, how much time should an OW give a MM to make the decision to leave?

 

I've read stories here over and again (and been one myself) where much time was given by an OW to a man who hasn't even inched a toe out of his front door as far as leaving the M. Not months, years. This is accurate in most cases. While it did work out for you, you have to admit that you are pretty much the exception to the rule here.

 

So how much time is too much time in that regard? When does it stop being classified as supportive and start being classified as her being used or giving up potential happiness she could have with a single man in order to get bits and pieces from someone who's commited to someone else? She's actually at more risk of having "egg on her face" in the end don't you think?

 

Regardless, if MM won't leave his M because he is uncertain about OW and their future, you are just reiterating that MM would remain in the M if the OW wasn't providing a secure, soft place to land. It makes me think that these M's are not nearly as broken as MM would have you think.

[bestplayer]

I would have to say that you really don't love him and want to be with him. You just think you do.

 

Or you wouldn't leave him when he needs you most.

 

I really don't understand why OW do this. You tell the MM you can't stay with him until he's fully D and expect him to make a big leap that SHOWS he's serious. He has to be FULLY divorced. Hell, YOU ARE NOT EVEN fully divorced.

 

If you really loved him and thought he was the one for you, there is NO WAY you'd refrain from answering his emails. I think you should see your feelings for what they are: you've moved on.

 

Wild horses couldn't keep me and my H away from each other. A piece of paper (M) doesn't keep OW from seeing a MM. So why is that OTHER piece of paper (D) become so important?

 

GEL

 

I think you wrong here , if she didn't love her MM she wouldn't have dumped her husband .

[White Flower]

I think you wrong here , if she didn't love her MM she wouldn't have dumped her husband .

 

 

But remember that women tend to take bigger risks for love than men do, while men tend to take bigger risks on achievements such as climbing the corporate ladder and keeping families together (an achievement, whether love is involved or not).

 

MBEG's guy would look like a fool, in a man's world, if he took that risk for love and she wasn't there for him. She should answer the emails and let him know she'll wait if he takes the risk.

[anne1707]

She should answer the emails and let him know she'll wait if he takes the risk.

 

I think he is actually in the middle of getting divorced after initially trying to reconcile with his wife. However I don't know whether the decision to divorce was his or his wife's.

[wheelwright]

i have not responded to his emails. in fact, i have stopped reading them because in my own mind i feel that by reading them it was keeping me hanging on.

 

i wrote this tonight because there was another attempt at contact from him, which i didnt no acknowledge or respond to.

 

i no longer feel like i am waiting for him. i have distanced myself completely, focused on my life and moved on. hes only a thought when he contacts me, which of course brings back feelings and thoughts.

 

i am single. have no thoughts of dating anyone. i just dont feel it inside. not that im closed off to it, but im not actively looking and havent had an offer that i would consider accepting.

 

i do however feel and have always felt if that one day we were both single i would re-evaluate things. there has been much hurt, much distance and many many things that im not sure i could ever forgive or forget. i dont know how i would feel about him now if we were together. i have no clue and i think there would be too much baggage there for it to work. BUT....i cant say i wouldnt be willing to exploring it IF we both were single and healed from our M ending.

 

i guess im just curious as to how to relay this information to him. my gut says just to keep my feelings inside and not share them. but a part of me wonders if he might take my complete NC and lack of response to mean that im unopen to him (which at the moment i am). what if he sees it as me not being open to trying under certain circumstances and never tells me if he finally does get to the point i was looking for?

 

I haven't read all the replies yet, but had a gut reaction I felt I wanted to write down.

 

It's like you are asking two very different questions.

 

Firstly, is the hurt to the R with xMM irreversible?

 

Second, what on earth do you do with the C when you feel you need NC (and perhaps a small piece of you wants C)?

 

I think in this case it would be sensible to wait until both Ds are final, then restore LC to see what you think about the first question. This is perhaps what you want to do?

 

I don't see the harm in letting him know if this is how you feel - in a one off communication. Especially letting him know he shouldn't invest a great deal of hope in it all (That's only fair here). He may have hurt the R too much. But maybe you want to punish him back right now.

 

That's how I read it up to here. I'll read the rest now!

[GreenEyedLady]

I agree they don't want to look like idiots and fear of the unknown can be a large factor into making the decision not the leave the M. But realistically, how much time should an OW give a MM to make the decision to leave?

 

I've read stories here over and again (and been one myself) where much time was given by an OW to a man who hasn't even inched a toe out of his front door as far as leaving the M. Not months, years. This is accurate in most cases. While it did work out for you, you have to admit that you are pretty much the exception to the rule here.

 

So how much time is too much time in that regard? When does it stop being classified as supportive and start being classified as her being used or giving up potential happiness she could have with a single man in order to get bits and pieces from someone who's commited to someone else? She's actually at more risk of having "egg on her face" in the end don't you think?

 

Regardless, if MM won't leave his M because he is uncertain about OW and their future, you are just reiterating that MM would remain in the M if the OW wasn't providing a secure, soft place to land. It makes me think that these M's are not nearly as broken as MM would have you think.

 

I think it depends on whether he is waffling or not. If he does what he says that is one thing. If he goes back and forth quite another. Then cut off all contact and move on. Change email addresses, etc. That didn't happen in my case. When he said he was leaving he got his own checking account,n switched direct deposit, and started looking for a place to live. He was around me as much as work schedule allowed and was around my family. He never said he wasn't ready, he needed time, needed to stay for kids, money etc. When he was serious he did it. And I was right there with him.

 

It worked out for me because he was serious about leaving. However, if we had never met, he certainly wouldn't have left, no matter how unhappy he was. He made his schedule so that he RARELY if EVER was at home, due to his job. He didn't have to go home at all if he didn't want to and could work overtime to his heart's content. Didn't mean that the M would be less broken. He was married on paper only. People don't usually make a change until they meet someone or are forced to.

 

And let's face it, these type of marriages exist. Two people can coexist without a great love tying them together. Sometimes it's kids or finances or friendship that keep a couple together. M's of convenience. As long as both partners are getting some kind of benefit, it works for them. It is not a M I would ever want to be in but that is my own personal opinion.

 

People who want to get divorced, do. And if you're with one of them, you know it, by their actions. It ceases to be MM and OW and it becomes us and the future.

 

But the OP is not even divorced herself, although on the way, according to her post. I don't understand her feelings toward him and not answering emails, if she loves him. Why would be honest about her feelings be breaking no contact here? What does she really risk? He will tire of the rejection. If she loves him and wants to be with him, why not be honest about it? From the OP, it sounded like he was going to get a D. Why does he have to prove his love and she does not?

 

Furthermore, she asked for thoughts, and I gave them. Whenever the MM is actually going to D, the standard advice is go NC wait until he is D. Well, I have personal experience on this and I think that is rotten advice. If you love someone, you don't leave them when they need you most.

 

And believe me, I was NOT a soft place to land.

 

GEL

[GreenEyedLady]

I think you wrong here , if she didn't love her MM she wouldn't have dumped her husband .

 

You are assuming she dumped her H because she loved MM. I don't know that that is the case. She would have to answer that.

 

GEL

[jwi71]

Just to clarify some facts as I remember them:

 

1) MBEG didn't file she got served by her BH

2) Her MM also got kicked out and served by his BW

3) Her MM tossed her under the bus more than once

 

My opinions:

 

Each actor here has so thoroughly betrayed each other and their spouses and families that there isn't a shred of trust left anywhere. Each still in pain from the A, each got kicked out, each mourning the loss, dealing with guilt and radical life changes. MBEG needs to spend however long she needs in intense IC to heal herself. Then and only then will she be ready for ANY R with ANYONE. She can barely get along with herself and her actions as it is.

 

NC or not is moot. There is zero trust and each has turned to the other because there is no one left. There is no future here but they will try anyway. And it will predictably go down in flames. All this does is prevent MBEG from healing herself.

 

Good luck...this doesn't end until you face YOURSELF w/o regard to your MM.

 

Block his email, block his phone, get new job and HEAL.

 

Contact with him isn't the promise of a better life (so easily you forget the underside of the bus he tossed you under several times) but a retardant to healing.

[U2RockZz]

I think you wrong here , if she didn't love her MM she wouldn't have dumped her husband .

 

her H dumped her not the other way

[bestplayer]

But remember that women tend to take bigger risks for love than men do, while men tend to take bigger risks on achievements such as climbing the corporate ladder and keeping families together (an achievement, whether love is involved or not).

 

MBEG's guy would look like a fool, in a man's world, if he took that risk for love and she wasn't there for him. She should answer the emails and let him know she'll wait if he takes the risk.

 

well I think it is because men try to make it work & dont dump their partner so easily , just to be with a woman who is more attractive & exciting . So keeping a happy & loving family together is definitely an achievement.

 

I agree women tend to take bigger risks , but I think risking a happy family life , hurting your kids & partner , just for your new found crush is simply selfish .

[bestplayer]

her H dumped her not the other way

ok i didn't know that . Thanks for clarifying

Edited June 27, 2010 by bestplayer

[Darth Vader]

All her time her mbeg and been crying so hard to get this so called man's attention, focused solely on her affair and now after her ex has dumped her and is divorcing her because he deserves better than some cheating chick.

 

At least her husband was smart enough to know a lost cause when he saw one! The same can be said about the MM's wife! The only one's I feel for are the BS's and the children involved, their world is totally ripped apart forever! They'll need counseling for that too, however, theyre gonna have to pay for that themselves out of their own pocket and they didn't even do anything wrong:sick:!

 

Now she acts like she doesnt want this MM? is she out of the fog, has she seen the MM's true colors? i dont get it.

 

No, she's apparently not out of the fog, not by a long shot! She still wants him.

 

All that pain, lying , cheating, destruction and upheaval, and what it was all for nothing?

 

 

Not for the WW's, they got to have all of that orgasmic sex and all the thrills of permanently hurting and destroying other people's hearts, emotions, self esteem, sanity, self worth, oh yeah man, the list goes on and on! But they can't face that! They can do NO wrong!

 

I can't wait for reality to come roaring in! When they wake up one morning and then it hits them, "OMG! What did I do to all of these people"! "How could've I done all of this"! Then they have to look in the mirror at themselves knowing the hell they put other people through!

 

Chrome, it's coming! However, for some people it never comes.

[White Flower]

well I think it is because men try to make it work & dont dump their partner so easily , just to be with a woman who is more attractive & exciting . So keeping a happy & loving family together is definitely an achievement.

 

I agree women tend to take bigger risks , but I think risking a happy family life , hurting your kids & partner , just for your new found crush is simply selfish .

Every story is different BP. Some men do the opposite of what you say as well as some women. I was speaking in generalities and not pointing fingers at anyone.

 

So, in general, although keeping a happy and loving family together IS an achievement who says all couples are happy and loving?

 

Further, I don't think anyone, women included, take risks on crushes. They take risks on the love of their life. They do the costs/benefits analysis like any smart business person. Even then, the best of entrepreneurs lose sometimes.

[Darth Vader]

Like I was trying to edit Chrome, if you read her posts, it's still all about her and her OM. There's no real guilt or remorse, at least not that I can see.