Seven times a charm?

[nick.johnstone]

I literally bumped into Sarah just over 12 years ago - one of those great serendipitous meetings which changes your life by introducing you to a person you instantly connect with on the deepest of levels. She was happily married, and our friendship was open and appropriate...though with daily communication and regular meeting we quickly became close. Too close perhaps for her husband who after a year of our friendship said he wasn't happy with me. She told me and I suggested we end our friendship...the last thing I wanted was to cause problems in her marriage....and anyway I had realised I was in love with her so probably for the best.

 

After 12 months NC she suddenly emailed, said she was missing me; we continued where we left off albeit she hadn't told her husband about me so we had an illicit platonic friendship becoming even closer and spending even more time together...now much to the annoyance of whichever girl I was going out with! We spent two years in this state until one summer's evening - her husband was out of town with work and we arranged to meet for a picnic after work which continued late into the evening...a magical hot balmy evening, too much champagne and a kiss. Back to her place. The best sex either of us had ever had. My telling her I loved her....her telling me she had always loved me.

 

Then came 8 years of the following:

1 - We start a full on intense meeting for sex regularly affair.

2 - She starts to feel guilty (usually after 3 months)

3 - She starts to get angry with me...pick and find fault with me.

4 - She breaks up with me - (anything between 3 months and 2 years)

5 - She comes back....go back to step 1.

 

Sometimes I was single and sometimes I was seeing someone when we were having our affairs. Everytime she broke up with me I let her go - to be honest I enjoyed having her in my live...loved her but had no expectations. We did the above cycle 6 times in 8 years...the final break-up her telling me she was pregnant (by her husband) and didn't want to have an affair any more.

 

Must say at this point her husband is a really nice guy who though doesn't "connect" with Sarah on a mental, emotional, or physical level like I do loves her as much as I do and would do anything for her. Have to admit though I wish she was with me I'm glad she has a good man to take care of her.

 

Anyway...she came back after 2 years. Wanted to catch up as we ended so abruptly - one dinner then NC. I ageed. Go to step 1. It lasted 3 months but was different this time - I wasn't happy...I wanted more. Perhaps i was older and the though of sneaking about just didn't appeal or perhaps I was weary going through the cycle again. I told her so...and she assured me she didn't want to leave me again and she'd manage the situation. We even talked about out future...that she'd leave her husband whilst the child was young enough not to be effected as much. For the first time ever I stopped holding back. Relief that years of madness had paid off. A further 3 months of happiness.

 

Then she hit Step 2. And Step 3. And Step 4 and started to talk of breaking up. I told her I couldn't do this again so if she left me now I would never take her back. So she stayed however she was different - forever locked in Step 3 always angry at me...arguing constantly. Drifting - no longer involving me in personal aspects of her life.. Keeping me at bay - meeting once a month rather than 3 times a week. Still in my life but at a distance. Saying she was happy to stay but she wanted a platonic friendship. But still occasionally having sex. Slip ups she calls them. Getting angry if I ever became affectionate...told her I loved her etc but she would sometimes send me these long emails about how much she loves me but only wants a platonic friendship with the occasional slip up. So inconsistent. I keep telling her I didn't want a platonic friendship even if we have slip ups and she's happy to leave. Yet she refuses to leave...but still gets angry at me for not giving her a platonic friendship.

 

We've been in this miserable state for a year now. We argued the other day - I wanted to see her, she said she didn't want to see me. I asked her why she was still here if she didn't even want a close friendship with me anymore. That our current situation was making us both miserable - that we both want different things and are drifting. That she should either try and fix what we have or part ways. That must have annoyed her as she told me never to tell her what to do...and that every shred of friendship had now died. I tell her if thats the case she should leave...delete herself from the Mobile IM we use to talk and leave my life forever. She doesn't.

 

The next day I attempt to defuse the situation by being normal - sending her a message asking her about her plans for the day - she responds by saying she doesn't want to talk to me. I do something I've never done and ask for space...I know we're both angry and I assume we'd only do more damage if we talked.

 

I guess I'm posting this because I'd like some advice about a few things -

a) How do you think she feels about me - and why the inconsistency?

b) Why won't she leave - I'm leaving the door open - why stay in this miserable situation?

c) How much "space" should I give us to cool down?

d) Should I just end things and walk away if she can't or is there any point staying?

 

I've told two people - my best friend and sister. Both say I'm being used as an emotional crutch which she's dependant on. My sister says I should sever ties permanently. My best friend says I should stop complaining and realise I'm lucky someone is offering me a friendship (albeit a distant one) with occasional sex. I guess he has a point!

[U2RockZz]

you both guys are really deserve each other,why not tell this entire story to her H...lets see what he thinks about it....try it....i don't think you have balls to do that...

 

this is too low and pathetic that you are using this guy for 8 f*****g years...i hope he finds out what kind of scum he is married to sooner rather than later

[nick.johnstone]

Hey I hate the infidelity and always have. To be honest I'd love to tell her husband - force her to choose me or him - but its not my place to do so.

 

And you're right...he does deserve better. But we're good people caught up in circumstance and acting selfishly. It doesn't justify anything...but it is the reality.

[U2RockZz]

oh,it's your place to f*** his wife...but it's not your place to tell the person he is been married to a cheating s****....

 

why not...you are having fun at his expense (time,money),it might serve your purpose....if you do not have the balls send him a anonymous mail or something...at least he doesn't have to waste his life any more on people like you.....

 

"we're good people "

 

ya, seems to be....

[NoIDidn't]

Nick, sounds like she plans to stay married and can't tell you straight up she just wants you on the side.

[U2RockZz]

Nick' date=' sounds like she plans to stay married and can't tell you straight up she just wants you on the side.[/quote']

 

don't you think he already knows it...i don't think he is a fool enough to expect more than that....and he said...he is fine with whatever comes along with the A....

[LucreziaBorgia]

a) How do you think she feels about me - and why the inconsistency?

b) Why won't she leave - I'm leaving the door open - why stay in this miserable situation?

c) How much "space" should I give us to cool down?

d) Should I just end things and walk away if she can't or is there any point staying?

 

1. She may have feelings for you but is invested in a life with her husband. It is easier for her to stay than to leave.

2. Why give up what she has: a stable, financially secure husband to keep the bills paid, and an OM to go to when she needs a 'pick me up'.

3. As much as you want. Things will continue as they always have for as long as you keep going back. No amount of NC changes anything if you go back. They just wait for you to get over whatever it is you are going through knowing you'll be back eventually.

4. There is no point being with another man's wife, unless you like the idea of living a half of a life with her, while she lives a life and a half with her husband.

[BB07]

From what I read....it sounds like she has no intention of leaving her husband and being with you. Why would she.......she has had both for a long time and she has gotten used to the way things are and you haven't really gave her an ultimatum. It also sounds like she is a very unhappy person......8 years of living a life like that couldn't have a good effect on a person.

[NoIDidn't]

don't you think he already knows it...i don't think he is a fool enough to expect more than that....and he said...he is fine with whatever comes along with the A....

 

I disagree that he's fine with the A. Read the below.

 

Hey I hate the infidelity and always have. To be honest I'd love to tell her husband - force her to choose me or him - but its not my place to do so.

 

He wants more, but that's not what she's offering.

 

Its pretty obvious that she wants to call the shots in this - AND stay married until it no longer suits her.

[U2RockZz]

"I should stop complaining and realise I'm lucky someone is offering me a friendship (albeit a distant one) with occasional sex. I guess he has a point"

 

i guess he has written this one also...come on he is not a fool....he is intelligent enough to depict her 8yrs behavior in 4 steps ....so he definitely knows what to expect, wht not to...on contrary her H needs a STD ,HIV ,DNA tests ASAP as a 8 yrs gift

[NoIDidn't]

"I should stop complaining and realise I'm lucky someone is offering me a friendship (albeit a distant one) with occasional sex. I guess he has a point"

 

i guess he has written this one also...come on he is not a fool....he is intelligent enough to depict her 8yrs behavior in 4 steps ....so he definitely knows what to expect, wht not to...on contrary her H needs a STD ,HIV ,DNA tests ASAP as a 8 yrs gift

 

But U2RockZz, no one ever stated or insinuated that the OP is a fool.

 

Sometimes it helps to have someone state the obvious to you again.

 

He wants more, but all she wants is the occasional "slip up". Intentional slip up.

 

I doubt very seriously, though, that anyone in an affair knows what to expect - most never expected to be in affairs.

[U2RockZz]

may be you are overly compassionate to see the obvious

 

"that anyone in an affair knows what to expect - most never expected to be in affairs"

 

you mean to say people in affairs can not differentiate between right and wrong...sociopaths....if so, i might agree with you.

 

 

after having fun at others expense(H) for 8 yrs ....i think he definitely knows what to expect from it.....if he was so much frustrated either he would have stopped the affair or made her H see for what she is.....

 

no body in the right frame mind would go on for 8 yrs expecting full commitment from other person while she is married to the other guy.....

 

i hope this guy is not playing as a friend to her H....if there is any victim in this i.e her H alone.....but truth will come out one or otherway

[Silly_Girl]

Personally NJ, I think you've grown out of this situation and the right (and difficult) thing is to now walk away, for ever. There is no happy ending for anyone as things are, but there will be for you if you free yourself and go and live your OWN life and meet your OWN Sarah. I really feel for you.

[nick.johnstone]

I think you're right - I have grown out of the situation...to be honest I never found much enjoyment in the thrill of sneaking around and living a half life. I suppose I focussed on the positive - the enjoyment of her company (someone who gets you) and the hope of a future together.

 

I haven't however grown out of her - I'm not a romantic or desperately loyal as previous girlfriends, friends and family would testify my having severed ties with countless people for less. However it doesn't matter what she does, how inconsistent she is, how much of a bitch she can become when suffering turmoil, or how much time we spend apart (two years NC?) nothing seems to change what I feel about her. She's still the person I want to talk to in the morning, last thing at night and the first person I want to share aspects of my life with.

 

Perhaps U2RockZz is right and I am a fool....!

 

You are right though - I'll never be able to move on unless we sever ties forever...especially as "platonic friendship with slip ups" just keeps us both here. But how do you ensure its forever? We managed it for two years in which we both had happy lives and separate relationships and it took one email to start the cycle again. And the reality is

 

What I don't want to do....what I can't do (to myself) is go through this cycle again. But the reality is if she ever broke NC and asked to meet etc I know I'd never be able to say no. How can you say no to someone you love?

[HurtinginTexas]

Read my posts from HurtinginTexas if you think YOU have it bad. Back and forth 10 times in 3.5 years. She divorced him finally after 25 years marriage. He stayed with me 11 months, then disappeared and I havent heard from him in 33 days. I saw in his emails he was begging her back. Im a mess too

[Silly_Girl]

I think you're right - I have grown out of the situation...to be honest I never found much enjoyment in the thrill of sneaking around and living a half life. I suppose I focussed on the positive - the enjoyment of her company (someone who gets you) and the hope of a future together.

 

I haven't however grown out of her - I'm not a romantic or desperately loyal as previous girlfriends, friends and family would testify my having severed ties with countless people for less. However it doesn't matter what she does, how inconsistent she is, how much of a bitch she can become when suffering turmoil, or how much time we spend apart (two years NC?) nothing seems to change what I feel about her. She's still the person I want to talk to in the morning, last thing at night and the first person I want to share aspects of my life with.

 

Perhaps U2RockZz is right and I am a fool....!

 

You are right though - I'll never be able to move on unless we sever ties forever...especially as "platonic friendship with slip ups" just keeps us both here. But how do you ensure its forever? We managed it for two years in which we both had happy lives and separate relationships and it took one email to start the cycle again. And the reality is

 

What I don't want to do....what I can't do (to myself) is go through this cycle again. But the reality is if she ever broke NC and asked to meet etc I know I'd never be able to say no. How can you say no to someone you love?

 

I think you two have accepted this as your norm. You're co-conspirators in that way. You were happy without each other for two years, yet you can't say No to her? It's not HER you're saying No to. If she were available to be yours, and she turned up on your doorstep with a big bow round her neck saying 'I'm All Yours!' and you shut the door on her, THAT'S you saying No to someone you love.

 

You're not saying No to her, you're saying no to this unfulfilling pattern. You're choosing to opt for a full life, the real deal, and not this pretend, fantasy stuff that keeps happening. You're not rejecting her, you're choosing YOU.

 

Tell her, if she wants to be with you, to be with you. Otherwise, it's off. For ever. And you have to mean it. I don't believe for one minute your life is so empty or your esteem so low that you need this woman to validate you or to give you 'reason to live'. So, you don't need her. But if you get back on the merry-go-round you could be back here in 8 years time wishing you'd done the tough stuff, got her out of your head, and invested in a relationship with the real chance of a future. Look ahead 8 years - where do you want to be? Because if you keep putting the same in to this, nothing will change.

[nick.johnstone]

Well thats the irony - neither of our lives are empty and nor do we rely on each other for validation; I view myself to be incredibly fortunate having loving friends and family, a job I love and no real problem finding girlfriends. I know she is happy in her marriage and equally happy with her life. Its something which we've often laughed about as neither of us need or want to be in an affair situation yet its something we always end up in....regardless of any effort to be platonic or any duration of NC.

 

But you're right - I have to accept that she's never leave her husband, and she'll always feel guilt and anger when in an affair situation, and we'll never manage to be platonic friends, and if we don't change things we'll just argue constantly, and if we take breaks we'll just get back together. It really is a case of accepting that we have to leave each other's lives and never never never contact each other again...forever

 

I'm logical and pragmatic enough to understand this. The execution however seems more difficult....not the asking for NC but what happens aftewards. As I said we had NC for two years and not a day went by I didn't wish she was back in my life...there was no way I was going to say no when she suggested we meet.

 

As stupid as it sounds I hope after a year of arguing and our friendship drifting she hates me and doesn't come back!

 

One things for sure having been reading posts on this forum it seems this is a common problem...maintaining NC and not falling into the cycle again. Thats reassuring I suppose.

 

How do you maintain NC and not take them back if they return after years of NC when all you remember is the good and none of the bad?

Edited June 29, 2010 by nick.johnstone

[fooled once]

From what I read....it sounds like she has no intention of leaving her husband and being with you. Why would she.......she has had both for a long time and she has gotten used to the way things are and you haven't really gave her an ultimatum. It also sounds like she is a very unhappy person......8 years of living a life like that couldn't have a good effect on a person.

 

I agree. Walk away.

[Posh Polly]

It's just really sad that you have missed out on 8 years of building a foundation with someone that's all yours.

[nick.johnstone]

Regrets are a waste of time...and call me delusional but when I look back I only remember the good bits; damn these rose tinted glasses of mine. This is what really infuriates me - I'm usually a calm, rational, pragmatic man relatively sensible in the actions and choices I make but she has always been my one weakness so I've always forgiven her behaviour. This means even if I know that things are only good between us 25% of the time and the other 75% is spent arguing or in NC I focus only focus on the positive....but to be fair its a bloody good 25%.

 

The sad truth is I don't think I've given any other girlfriend a chance or have unfairly compared them to Sarah and found them lacking. My fault not theirs. The reality is I don't think I'll be able to get on with my life unless I fall out of love with her...how I do that I'm not sure. NC didn't work. Lobotomy perhaps!

[Silly_Girl]

Regrets are a waste of time...and call me delusional but when I look back I only remember the good bits; damn these rose tinted glasses of mine. This is what really infuriates me - I'm usually a calm, rational, pragmatic man relatively sensible in the actions and choices I make but she has always been my one weakness so I've always forgiven her behaviour. This means even if I know that things are only good between us 25% of the time and the other 75% is spent arguing or in NC I focus only focus on the positive....but to be fair its a bloody good 25%.

 

The sad truth is I don't think I've given any other girlfriend a chance or have unfairly compared them to Sarah and found them lacking. My fault not theirs. The reality is I don't think I'll be able to get on with my life unless I fall out of love with her...how I do that I'm not sure. NC didn't work. Lobotomy perhaps!

 

The first bolded part - all of us reading your posts can see that a mile off. reread our replies to you with that in mind and you'll see it.

 

Second bolded... yes you can. You can CHOOSE to. Some guys have done it here and it's sooooo bloody hard. Gut-wrenchingly painful. But you do it, or you sit there in your bathchair, all on your lonesome, in your 85th year and wonder why YOU never settled down, where YOUR happy ever after is.... wistfully wondering how Sarah is because you two haven't spoken for a few years and you're kinda lonely....

[nick.johnstone]

Well that is truly a depressing picture you've painted...for one thing I'd have to buy a bath chair! You are right of course - and I think I know this too which is why it was different for me this time; perhaps now in my 30s I realise i don't want to waste anymore time on something which I know deep-down will never deliver.

 

Gut-wrenchingly painful doesn't sound pleasant though but I suppose less unpleasant than a lifetime of unfulfilling relationships with any girl I go out with.

 

For someone called Silly Girl you're actually pretty insightful...

[wheelwright]

Regrets are a waste of time...and call me delusional but when I look back I only remember the good bits; damn these rose tinted glasses of mine. This is what really infuriates me - I'm usually a calm, rational, pragmatic man relatively sensible in the actions and choices I make but she has always been my one weakness so I've always forgiven her behaviour. This means even if I know that things are only good between us 25% of the time and the other 75% is spent arguing or in NC I focus only focus on the positive....but to be fair its a bloody good 25%.

 

The sad truth is I don't think I've given any other girlfriend a chance or have unfairly compared them to Sarah and found them lacking. My fault not theirs. The reality is I don't think I'll be able to get on with my life unless I fall out of love with her...how I do that I'm not sure. NC didn't work. Lobotomy perhaps!

 

Bolded part is that million dollar question. I truly sympathise.

 

You can start by reflecting more on how she has treated you than on how wonderful it was that 25% of the time.

 

That magical connection that so many of us talk about here has to be put into context. She is cake-eating at 3 people's expense. That's not nice.

 

This shift in focus may be hard, and you may not be able to stick to it all the time, but it helps you fall out of love. When you remember the good times, you begin to see them in context.

 

I think as well, for what it's worth, that she has treated you very badly. Pushing you away but getting angry if you want a complete split. Can't you see the cruelty in this? This isn't a game where she gets to call the shots according to her sexual needs and guilt balance. Do your needs get appreciated, or is it all about her?

 

Assert your right for respect. If she can't meet it, then go NC.

 

Consider also why you are attracted to a R with 75% unfulfilling. Think about this instead of seeing yourself as attracted to the 25%. Is there a record of this in your younger life?

 

Shift your focus. To the 75%.

[nick.johnstone]

 

This shift in focus may be hard, and you may not be able to stick to it all the time, but it helps you fall out of love. When you remember the good times, you begin to see them in context.

 

I think as well, for what it's worth, that she has treated you very badly. Pushing you away but getting angry if you want a complete split. Can't you see the cruelty in this? This isn't a game where she gets to call the shots according to her sexual needs and guilt balance. Do your needs get appreciated, or is it all about her?

 

Assert your right for respect. If she can't meet it, then go NC.

 

 

The one question I have never been able to answer is - is she "calling the shots" according to her sexual needs and guilt balance ie having her cake and eating it...or is she simply suffering a mountain of turmoil herself and doing the best she can given the insanity of the situation.

 

Its so easy to paint her as the evil bitch (especially if I want to fall out of love with her) but the reality is I'm sure if she came on LS and wrote her story people would probably sympathise and say she's doing the best that she can to juggle the turmoil and keep a person she loves in her life (me) however she can given the constraints of reality.

 

And no, my needs aren't currently being met...but then I believe deep down if she could she would. And I can't hate someone for feeling guilty about having an affair / cheating on her husband who's a good man can I?

 

Or am I just being an apologist? Don't get me wrong it doesn't change my wanting to leave the situation...but it does make it harder to fall out of love with her.

[silverplanets]

I think you're right - I have grown out of the situation...to be honest I never found much enjoyment in the thrill of sneaking around and living a half life. I suppose I focussed on the positive - the enjoyment of her company (someone who gets you) and the hope of a future together.

 

I haven't however grown out of her - I'm not a romantic or desperately loyal as previous girlfriends, friends and family would testify my having severed ties with countless people for less. However it doesn't matter what she does, how inconsistent she is, how much of a bitch she can become when suffering turmoil, or how much time we spend apart (two years NC?) nothing seems to change what I feel about her. She's still the person I want to talk to in the morning, last thing at night and the first person I want to share aspects of my life with.

 

Perhaps U2RockZz is right and I am a fool....!

 

You are right though - I'll never be able to move on unless we sever ties forever...especially as "platonic friendship with slip ups" just keeps us both here. But how do you ensure its forever? We managed it for two years in which we both had happy lives and separate relationships and it took one email to start the cycle again. And the reality is

 

What I don't want to do....what I can't do (to myself) is go through this cycle again. But the reality is if she ever broke NC and asked to meet etc I know I'd never be able to say no. How can you say no to someone you love?

 

Hi Nick,

 

It's not about whether you love her or not, it's not about whether you're attacted to each other or not .... it's about whether she is able to meet your needs.

 

You sound like you have grown tired of the merry-go-round and believe that Nick deserves something better .... not someone better .. but something better ... where she is there for you all the time, where there is no guilt, no back and forth etc etc

 

That's an OK thing to want .. in fact it's entirely normal.

 

The issue here is she is not able to give that to you - not unless she divorces - and it doesn't sound like she is seriously considering it.

 

She's stating her needs loud and clear .. you on her terms.

 

Your needs seem different .. so the question is are you going to put your needs first or hers.

 

She has every "right" to tell you what her "conditions" are .. but then again YOU have every right to say that they do not meet up with your needs.

 

And THEN you have the right to just walk away.

 

I walked away from my xMW over 9 months ago, FOR GOOD, after around 13 years of a similar merry go round.

 

I'd done it before but this time I meant it. There were many final straws but one particular one was her willingness to stay with her H if she didn't think I was going to give her what she wanted. For an odd reason, the main thing that hit me about this was that she was willing to use him as a fall-back ... which I found revolting.

 

I got myself into counselling to look at why I'd let this go on so long, I kept myself busy and all the other zillion of things people do.

 

Right now I really am indifferent to her .. I really am. She holds no "power" over me any more ... and never will again.

 

I no longer see her in a rosy light .. I see her as a human being .... and, perhaps more importantly, I see me as a human being too.

 

 

She has tried to contact a number of times and maintaining NC has not really been a problem. I worked out my own needs and one was that I didn't want to be in a R with a married woman ..... she falls in that category so no matter what our past she no longer makes the cut in terms of my new "me focused" needs.

 

I've not particularly dated in 9 months as (selfishly) I felt deserved time to focus on me.

 

The key really is in deciding yourself that they are not able to meet your needs ... after that just stick to putting your needs first.

 

My xMW is always free to divorce, live by herself a bit and reflect/come to peace with the demise of her marriage ... and then see if I am free/am interested in seeing her.

 

If you go NC you will end up being angry with her .. once the rose tint dissapears and you realise that behind every "I love you" she muttered there was no serious intent to be with you ... when that hits you then boy is that a reality check on it.

 

The anger goes though ...

 

Right now, I don't care if she stays married not .. but what I would hope is that she chooses to reflect on what happened and decide that she doesn't want to be a person who lies and deceives.

 

If I found out on my death bed that (married or not) she'd decided to focus on helping others, being a better person and supporting and helping those less fortunate then I'd honestly be pleased for her.

 

It's her life though, and she needs to find her own peace in it.

 

Likewise do I.

 

be safe

Chris