Why can't my sil understand my kids are no longer interested

[mopar crazy]

in going to their house all the time. When my kids were a few years younger they enjoyed going to my brother and sil to hang out with their cousins. Well, my daughter is now 15 and she has no interest in spending time with her 10 year old cousin anymore. As for my 16.5 year old son, he doesn't like going over there anymore either b/c his 17 yo cousin runs with a different crowd his friends call "band geeks." Sorry, I don't use the term, they do. It was used when I was in HS 25 years ago. They don't have much in common anymore and ds now has his own friends that he has more in common with. He would rather go hang out with his friends than go out to his cousins.

 

And tonight is no exception. My sil is freaked about the use of fireworks by teenagers. She allows the boys to do it but she is just a little too protective. I guess i'm more relaxed about it as long as they aren't pointing them at each other or anything else that is unsafe to them or other's I'm ok with. She just freaks about the littlest things.

 

My sil gets a little upset that my kids don't come over anymore. When they did come over it seemed my daughter was always expected to supervise her youngest cousin while my sil and the rest of the guest sat in the garage and partied. She put all the supervision on my daughter or her oldest son. That even happens when they have friends over with their own children, she ends up supervising them also. B/c of this, my daughter no longer wants to go over there.

 

Another thing, my 8 yo nephew whines about EVERYTHING! We can't sit and visit for even 10 minutes and he is whinning about something. It's worse when he comes out to my house. I love him to death but the child's attention span is about 10 minutes long then he complains he is bored or the older boys wont play what he wants to. B/c of this, my kids get tired of the whinning too.

 

Man, I'm just full of family bitching this weekend aren't I?

[Corporate]

Looking through your threads, this seems like a very small family issue compare to say, I don't know, your husband's cheating.

 

It's very obvious that he has cheated on you, but is he still cheating? Did you get tested for STDs?

Edited July 4, 2010 by Corporate

[Corporate]

Wait, your H physically abused you and your daughter too?

[Ronni_W]

Mopar,

It's the same solution as with Grandma and the cap -- stand up and speak out for your children. They are your children...one of your 'jobs' is to protect them. In this case, to protect them from having to babysit other people's kids, being subjected to their younger cousin's whining, and being forced to socialize with kids they don't want to socialize with.

 

It's about making your own children feel free and comfortable on this planet -- and nevermind if Grandma or SiL or whomever else end up feeling "hurt" or uncomfortable.

 

What is preventing you from actively being in your own kids' corners? If not you, who can they count on, for that?

[mopar crazy]

Looking through your threads, this seems like a very small family issue compare to say, I don't know, your husband's cheating.

 

It's very obvious that he has cheated on you, but is he still cheating? Did you get tested for STDs?

 

That was seven years ago. I would rather not discuss this on this thread but will be happy to answer any questions you may have in a PM, k?

Thx

[threebyfate]

What is preventing you from actively being in your own kids' corners? If not you, who can they count on, for that?

This is what it boils down to, Mopar. Your kids are old enough to not be forced to visit. If your SIL bitches, tell her they have social lives of their own now.

[mopar crazy]

Mopar,

It's the same solution as with Grandma and the cap -- stand up and speak out for your children. They are your children...one of your 'jobs' is to protect them. In this case, to protect them from having to babysit other people's kids, being subjected to their younger cousin's whining, and being forced to socialize with kids they don't want to socialize with.

 

It's about making your own children feel free and comfortable on this planet -- and nevermind if Grandma or SiL or whomever else end up feeling "hurt" or uncomfortable.

 

What is preventing you from actively being in your own kids' corners? If not you, who can they count on, for that?

 

Thanks Ronnie for your advice. I have been told over and over again that my son should just deal w/ my 8 yo nephew and he should suck it up and play with him. It's been an issue. However, after last night my son is no longer allowed to go over there until his cousins graduation next year, my choice.

 

 

He really screwed up last night. We went over last night for fireworks. All parents were in the garage with the overhead door open so we could supervise w/o having to be directly right by their side. Everything was going well. Kids were doing kid fireworks and getting along great.

 

Well, then shyt happened and I took my son home right before we even started shooting off the main fireworks.

 

What happened was that the older boys went around to the side of camper where we could not see them. We were just getting ready to go outside for the firework show when my 8 year old nephew came into the garage crying. His mom asked him what was wrong and he said "B (my son) hit me with a firework." I made sure he was ok, and then I went outside and told my son to get in the car, I taking him home. My 17 yo nephew and their 16 yo friend said "C (my 8 yo nephew) was shooting them really close to B and B stood two feet away from him. It was only those little Champagne poppers" I told the boys that it was still unexcusable for my son to be shooting them towards C, even if it was Champagne bottle poppers. My son didn't agrue with me, he got in the car and we discussed it on the way home. He said what the boys told me. I asked him if he told C to stop doing that and he said like 2 or 3 times and he wouldn't stop so he aimed one in his direction from 2 feet away or so. Of course the no excuses speach, and he is old enough, blah blah blah.

 

I drop him off and go back to the party. My sil tells me it's ok, her son isn't hurt. I told her it wasn't ok. I told her I warned my son b4 we even got there if he caused any problems I would be taking him home immedailey and he pulled this crap! . Again, she said it's ok. As I walked past a friend she said "I would work three jobs to send him to Military school." WTH?

 

H told me that C came up to him while I was gone and did admit to shooting my son with the champagne poppers. He said it didn't hurt him when B did it, but it did scare him.

 

I guess this just closes the door to this problem where my son is concerned cause now he wont be going out there for awhile.

 

Now I just have to worry about when they come to our house once a week b/c that is even worse! My nephew will not sit but for 10 minutes playing a game or a toy and he comes and ask me for something else. He refuses to go downstairs to look for a toy, and when I go down to help him find something he plays with it for a short amount of time and wants another one. I spend more time finding him things to do than visiting with the adults! And no, the toys are not coming upstaris. There is no reason for them to be upstairs. He is lucky I haven't pitched them or gave them away. UGH! I dread having them over b/c of this.

[threebyfate]

I'm trying to understand the story but are having a bit of problem following it.

 

Your nephew was lighting firecrackers near your son and was told to stop. He refused to stop so your son lit some firecrackers near him. Your nephew came inside to fink. The older cousin and friend both told you the story but you still sided with the nephew. Your son substantiated the story in the car but you still gave him crap and left him at home.

 

You went back to the party and apologized to your SIL.

 

Your husband told you that your nephew even substantiated the story.

 

While I agree that your son deserved crap, nowhere do I see you defending him to any degree and making certain your SIL also makes her son accountable for his actions.

 

With this in mind, why would your SIL or nephew have any respect for your children and their time?

[SarahRose]

Kids need to be supervised at all times with fireworks. They were lucky they didn't put someone's eye out or blow off a finger.

 

Where were you and the other parents when they were doing this stuff?

 

It sounds to me you just don't like your sil for some reason?

[mopar crazy]

I'm trying to understand the story but are having a bit of problem following it.

 

Your nephew was lighting firecrackers near your son and was told to stop. He refused to stop so your son lit some firecrackers near him. Your nephew came inside to fink. The older cousin and friend both told you the story but you still sided with the nephew. Your son substantiated the story in the car but you still gave him crap and left him at home.

 

You went back to the party and apologized to your SIL.

 

Your husband told you that your nephew even substantiated the story.

 

While I agree that your son deserved crap, nowhere do I see you defending him to any degree and making certain your SIL also makes her son accountable for his actions.

 

With this in mind, why would your SIL or nephew have any respect for your children and their time?

 

You pretty much understood. The only part was that they weren't lighting the fireworks. They are those little Champagne poppers. The one's where you pull the string and little pieces of colored string come out. There is a little bit of gun powder in it to make it have that popping sound.

 

My nephew came into the garage screaming and crying like he was really hurt so my first reaction was to make sure he was ok and then deal w/ my own son, which I did.

I told him b4 we even got there about him causing any problems, if he did, he would be going home. He hit my nephew in the face w/ the Champagne popper and caused my nephew to cry. You wanna know WHY I honestly did what I did? B/c my sil and brother would have WANTED me to do that. When I left w/ ds everyone agreed that I did the right thing by taking him home. And yes, when I took him home I was so upset about the whole situation I just took him home. I wasn't just upset w/ my son making the poor choice he did, but for my nephew doing the same damn thing and not getting in trouble for it. He hardly gets into any trouble b/c of the things he does, but MY son does b/c he is older and should know better not to react the way he does.

 

And my friends comment about sending him to military school? WTF? I didn't need that right then either.

[mopar crazy]

Kids need to be supervised at all times with fireworks. They were lucky they didn't put someone's eye out or blow off a finger.

 

Where were you and the other parents when they were doing this stuff?

 

It sounds to me you just don't like your sil for some reason?

 

 

I agree with you about the supervision. We were in the garage w/ the overhead door open. They were right outside the garage where we could see them. Actually, my sil's back was turned towards the door so she couldn't see anything but I could.

 

Right b4 we were going to shoot off the main ones they went to the other side of the camper. I got up to go check on them and that is when my nephew came in crying. So, they weren't out of my eyesight very long. My son is almost 17, he doesn't need as much supervision as an 8 year old and no, not one of his parents were out there supervising him at all when this took place. They just sit in the garage and party and leave watching the kids up to their older son who is 17. It always happens that way. They leave him up to supervising.

 

I do like my sil, we are like BF, but I'm tired of her thinking that whatever happens her children are not at fault. My nephew did not get into trouble at all for his part in it.

[Corporate]

That was seven years ago. I would rather not discuss this on this thread but will be happy to answer any questions you may have in a PM, k?

Thx

 

I don't have PM privilege because I am not an "established member."

[mopar crazy]

I don't have PM privilege because I am not an "established member."

 

Well, that just bites. Sorry. You maybe able to as soon as you have a certain amount of post but I'm not sure. I've been here for so long that I have forgot about that part.

[threebyfate]

You wanna know WHY I honestly did what I did? B/c my sil and brother would have WANTED me to do that. When I left w/ ds everyone agreed that I did the right thing by taking him home. And yes, when I took him home I was so upset about the whole situation I just took him home. I wasn't just upset w/ my son making the poor choice he did, but for my nephew doing the same damn thing and not getting in trouble for it. He hardly gets into any trouble b/c of the things he does, but MY son does b/c he is older and should know better not to react the way he does.

 

And my friends comment about sending him to military school? WTF? I didn't need that right then either.

Forget what other people WANT you to do. Support your son. Rock the boat so he knows you're behind him.

[mopar crazy]

Forget what other people WANT you to do. Support your son. Rock the boat so he knows you're behind him.

 

I would have gotten a lecture by my sil and brother if I wouldn't have taken him home and I wasn't really in the mood for it. They would have said "You should have taken him home for doing something like that" or whatever.

 

My kid is a teenage boy who does stupid crap like break curfew all the time, and yes he gets grounded for it. He has been caught drinking beer, grounded. Caught chewing (DISGUSTING) grounded! I did that (besides chewing, it was smoking) when I was his age and when I got caught, I got grounded. I broke curfew all the time and got grounded for it.

 

My sister was A LOT worse than I was. I didn't do anything to hurt anyone. I just did what most teenage kids do at that age. Right or wrong.

 

B/c of this my brother and sil think my kid is a bad kid. They haven't said it, but they sure say things to make it sound as if he is.

 

Their 17 yo does no wrong. He is a good kid, he is. But I think once he gets to college and is out of his parents home he is going to let loose b/c he lives such a sheltered life half the time. Most of the time when he is gone is b/c he is doing band activities. He does go out w/ friends but not a lot. Most of his times is with the band activities. Oh, I guess he did get into trouble once for going online and looking at porn and also ordering pay perview porn also. That is the most he has done that is unacceptable behavior. I think that is normal for teenage boys too. Not right but normal.

[Ronni_W]

I would have gotten a lecture by my sil and brother if I wouldn't have taken him home and I wasn't really in the mood for it. They would have said "You should have taken him home for doing something like that" or whatever.

Mopar,

You are WELL past the age to get "lectured" by anyone! That's just a ridiculous notion.

 

The thing is, when it's about you standing up for your children who are being treated unfairly, your "mood" or personal comfort doesn't enter into it...you get in the mood, and you do it because that's what parenting is all about.

 

His other misdeeds and transgressions have nothing to do with it; nothing at all to do with him being able to count on you to defend and protect him when he needs that from you.

 

How his cousins or other sibling(s) behave also has nothing to do with it.

 

Your fear of your in-laws, and your desire to put your own comfort ahead of your child's needs are...not very good for his self-esteem and feelings of worth. You are treating him as if he is faulty and always at fault. It's a terrible message to get from one's mother.

[candymoon]

What the PP said.

 

Plus, I'd add I see a lot of comparison between your children and your SIL's children. And that's not from them but from YOU! Stop comparing your kids to their cousins. It's not right. It's not fair. It's apples and oranges. So what that the nephew got busted with porn and all the other things he does right and wrong. Worry about your kids and less about making other people happy about your parenting choices.

 

And perhaps, it comes down to how you worry about how people feel about YOU as a mother and the decisions you make in that capacity. That shows your self esteem is really in the toilet when it comes to feeling secure about your parenting skills.

 

Let it rest.

 

As far as the 8 yo nephew---he is 8! Some eight year olds just dont have an attention span. It's more about his personality type than anything else. Deal with it or get the balls to say to your SIL, "hey come deal with your son." It really is that simple.

[mopar crazy]

Mopar,

You are WELL past the age to get "lectured" by anyone! That's just a ridiculous notion.

 

The thing is, when it's about you standing up for your children who are being treated unfairly, your "mood" or personal comfort doesn't enter into it...you get in the mood, and you do it because that's what parenting is all about.

 

His other misdeeds and transgressions have nothing to do with it; nothing at all to do with him being able to count on you to defend and protect him when he needs that from you.

 

How his cousins or other sibling(s) behave also has nothing to do with it.

 

Your fear of your in-laws, and your desire to put your own comfort ahead of your child's needs are...not very good for his self-esteem and feelings of worth. You are treating him as if he is faulty and always at fault. It's a terrible message to get from one's mother.

 

Ronni, you are right. I guess when you hear the things we talk about they make it sound as if we are bad parents. H even got upset once and asked my sil: "Are you saying we are bad parents?" I guess who have to be there in the conversation to know what I'm saying.

 

So, how am I suppose to take the comment from everyone who said I did the right thing by taking him home? How do I take the comment from a friend who said "I would work two jobs to pay Military school."

[threebyfate]

So, how am I suppose to take the comment from everyone who said I did the right thing by taking him home? How do I take the comment from a friend who said "I would work two jobs to pay Military school."

You should have taken him home but also, should have stood your ground about your nephew deserving equal punishment.

 

As for the other comments, they wouldn't have happened had you backed up your son. People will shut up if they know you'll take them to task.

[mopar crazy]

What the PP said.

 

Plus, I'd add I see a lot of comparison between your children and your SIL's children. And that's not from them but from YOU! Stop comparing your kids to their cousins. It's not right. It's not fair. It's apples and oranges. So what that the nephew got busted with porn and all the other things he does right and wrong. Worry about your kids and less about making other people happy about your parenting choices.

 

And perhaps, it comes down to how you worry about how people feel about YOU as a mother and the decisions you make in that capacity. That shows your self esteem is really in the toilet when it comes to feeling secure about your parenting skills.

 

Let it rest.

 

As far as the 8 yo nephew---he is 8! Some eight year olds just dont have an attention span. It's more about his personality type than anything else. Deal with it or get the balls to say to your SIL, "hey come deal with your son." It really is that simple.

 

candy, I understand what you are saying. I guess I put that out there (comparing) is b/c my sil feels her kids do no wrong. That they are perfect, especially her younger one's. And when my child does something they don't agree with I get told how they would have handled it, like I made the incorrect choices. Believe me, I have told her time and time again I choose to discipline they way I want to, their my kids. She may not agree with it, she may not do the same thing, but she has no right to say how I should do things.

 

While there hasn't been any real issues with her daughter (10) there has always been issues with her youngest (8).

When my children were going over there more there was always fights between my son and my nephew. My nephew likes my son, looks up to him, but he shows this affection but picking on him, teasing him, etc. My son has never, ever been a tattle tale. I raised him to say stop, walk away, etc. I get sick of any child tattling on another when they need to learn to stick up for themselves. There is a time for telling on another child and this isn't one of them. Even after all that my nephew would continue to pick on and tease. It gets a little old to hear my son (at the time) complain about him. How is my sil to know to tend to her son when she doesn't know about it? I don't say a damn thing b/c she will bring this back on my kids.

 

An 8 yo should have an attention span of more than 10 minutes. A normal attention span for an 8 year old is about 20 to 40 minutes. 40 is a little on the high side of course. Normal is about 20 minutes. Maybe his attention span is longer while at home, or school, but when he's at my house, I'm lucky if he stays on a task for 10 minutes w/o getting bored and coming to me to find him something to do. My sil do anything? HA! She wont do anything but say "GO find something to do!" Ten minutes later he is back, bored and whining. She doesn't want to get up to deal with it, she expects her other children to tend to him. I see it every single time I go there or she comes out here and I go there once a week on average to hang out.

[Ronni_W]

So, how am I suppose to take the comment from everyone who said I did the right thing by taking him home? How do I take the comment from a friend who said "I would work two jobs to pay Military school."

Mopar,

You don't HAVE to "take" any comments from anybody -- you can decide to...you are entitled to just leave their crap with them, and to not take it on board for yourself. Doesn't matter WHO is making the comments. You're NOT "supposed" to take it, at all.

(If it will help, try visualizing yourself in a protective transparent 'bubble' and just let their stupid, ignorant crap bounce off of that and NOT come into your mind, heart or spirit. Stand there looking at the 'words' as they just bounce right back at the freak who is uttering them. Don't listen to the words, just observe them bouncing all around you but outside of you. Practice doing this when watching TV or whatever.)

 

Outwardly. You can decide on some standard response that you give to EVERYBODY who sticks their nose into your family's private business. "Thank you for your concern. We are doing the best we can..." and/or "...doing what we believe to be in our own children's best interests." And just keep repeating that until they get tired of hearing it.

You can also just say, "Get the fick OFF!!! That is none of your business and I'll appreciate you staying out of it from now on." And just keep repeating that until they get tired of hearing it.

 

You DO have the right, the power and the authority to tell people when and where to get the hell off. You honestly do.

 

candymoon also offered some very valuable info/insight, mopar. It does sound that you're not terribly confident in your own parenting skills, and are thus incredibly vulnerable to everything that "comes in" to you from the outside.

Take parenting courses, read books, watch shows like 'SuperNanny'. Do whatEVER you gotta do to feel confident and capable as a mom. Once you gift that to yourself, you will not be vulnerable to their ignorant, unwanted, unsolicited remarks and "advice"; they will not be able to trigger your own feelings and self-judgment that you're an incompetent, inadequate parent.

 

As much as it pisses you off that Grandma cares so much about how OTHER people are going to perceive your son and his cap, YOU care even more about how SiL and Friend and Grandma and WhomeverElse perceive you...and your children...and likely your husband, too.

It's not their effin' business, and they have no real power or authority to judge and comment the way they do -- it's only that, thus far, you have GIVEN AWAY your own power to them.

 

I know it's difficult. I know you're dealing with a host of what have become, for you, coping mechanisms. They are, unfortunately, maladaptive -- they no longer serve you or your kids very well at all. For this, a psychotherapist can help you work through all of it. It has NOTHING to do with your son, or MiL, or SiL, or anybody else. All of it is asking you to start doing some self-examination so that you can stop the stuff that's not working for you or your kids, and adopt some new attitudes and behaviours that will support your own family's mental, emotional and spiritual health and well-being.

 

I know it's tough, mopar. Big hugs.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Ronni_W
spelling & clarification

[mopar crazy]

You should have taken him home but also, should have stood your ground about your nephew deserving equal punishment.

 

As for the other comments, they wouldn't have happened had you backed up your son. People will shut up if they know you'll take them to task.

 

HA HA!! That is too funny! Me say anything about equal punishment? It would have just been the usual "He is 8, you son is almost 17, he should have known better than do it back."

 

I'm half tempted to call or text that friend and telling her I didn't appreciate the comment about military school but ya know what, I'm going to do as candy suggest, let it go. I'm only replying to this thread b/c ppl are still doing so.

 

I'll learn the next time (hopefully there is no next time) to stick up for my son IN FRONT of ppl instead of just to my son. I stood up for him when were disussing this situation on the way home. He knows how I felt about it, my nephew not receiving any punishment for his share in it or doing it in the first place. If my nephew wouldn't have been hitting my son with fireworks my son would have never done it back. Regardless, my son shouldn't have done it back, no, but my nephew shouldn't have been doing it either. Just b/c he is 8 doesn't give him the right to hurt other ppl w/o consequences to his actions.

[threebyfate]

HA HA!! That is too funny! Me say anything about equal punishment? It would have just been the usual "He is 8, you son is almost 17, he should have known better than do it back."

My response to this is that "unless your son is retarded, at 8 years old he's fully capable of understanding that firecrackers are dangerous. It's high time you held him responsible for his actions. He's old enough now.".

 

I'm half tempted to call or text that friend and telling her I didn't appreciate the comment about military school but ya know what, I'm going to do as candy suggest, let it go. I'm only replying to this thread b/c ppl are still doing so.

I agree about letting it go. It's too late now.

I'll learn the next time (hopefully there is no next time) to stick up for my son IN FRONT of ppl instead of just to my son. I stood up for him when were disussing this situation on the way home. He knows how I felt about it, my nephew not receiving any punishment for his share in it or doing it in the first place. If my nephew wouldn't have been hitting my son with fireworks my son would have never done it back. Regardless, my son shouldn't have done it back, no, but my nephew shouldn't have been doing it either. Just b/c he is 8 doesn't give him the right to hurt other ppl w/o consequences to his actions.

Yes, yes, yes!! This is exactly the right attitude!!

[mopar crazy]

Ronni, a lot of my confidence with how I parent my children comes from THEM telling me what I should have done. Some times it's not worth grounding them over something I feel is no big deal. My brother and/or my sil say "What? You didn't ground him for that?!?" That is where I do come in and say I didn't feel it was that necessary to go that route. And my brother and/or sil just roll their eyes and say "Ok??? Whatever."

I should just let it slide off and tell them to shut the F up and deal w/ their own children and not worry about mine.

Sometimes I wonder if their attentions are good, yet sometimes I wonder if they just do it b/c they feel I'm not adequate to know how to discipline my children.

 

Teenagers are so much harder and stressful than when they were younger.

I get a lot of training in parenting/teaching classes for my job, just not any for teenagers, but Early Childhood.

[candymoon]

Teenagers are so much harder and stressful than when they were younger.

I get a lot of training in parenting/teaching classes for my job, just not any for teenagers, but Early Childhood.

 

OMG they get MORE stressful as teens? My DD is 4 and already a handful. Eeek!

 

You also said (sorry, havent figured out multiple quotes yet):

candy, I understand what you are saying. I guess I put that out there (comparing) is b/c my

sil

feels her kids do no wrong. That they are perfect, especially her younger one's. And when my child does something they don't agree with I get told how they would have handled it, like I made the incorrect choices. Believe me, I have told her time and time again I choose to discipline they way I want to, their my kids. She may not agree with it, she may not do the same thing, but she has no right to say how I should do things.

My MIL tried to tell me how to discipline my daughter once. I've been with her son for 20 years now and at the time DD was 3 (now 4). My response was quick, vicious, and immediate. At the time, she was trying to tell DD to not jump on her because her back hurt. Well DD did it again anyway, so I put my authoritative mommy tone on and told her "Time Out!" DD started sceaming, MIL's response was "oh no! Don't do that!" I let her have it about not telling me how to raise my kids. She was red-faced and practically in tears. I didn't care. I never apologized either when it was she who needed to.

 

As an aside--She was of the ilk that children should be free and not disciplined at all. Now she is dealing with the fallout of lazy, shiftless, ungrateful and disrespectful and feeling entitled adult children (including my H on some levels, tho he was more disciplined. They got lax as the other sibs were born).

 

She has never tried to tell me how to discipline again. In fact, she has patted us on the back and said how she NEVER had the guts to raise her kids like this and respects us for it and sees how wonderful DD is coming up--even with so many rules. Doh!

 

Anyhoo, I say just let your IL's crap go. And when they tell you how, give them an earful. You seem a bit afraid to stand up for yourself when it comes to them. The first time you do it, might win you some silence from them and their rowdy 8-year-old. As in, punishing you with no phone calls, visits, etc (but you could use a break right?). But in the end, they would RESPECT you as a parent and as a PERSON. Sounds like you let them run all over you and they have NO RESPECT for you, which is why they know they know they get away with those odd crappy remarks. And your kids sense this too.

 

People treat you as you allow them to treat you. Earn your respect back. Next time, tell them (in a very diplomatic way) to go F--k themselves.

 

You seem like a very sweet lady and I know things will be better when you put your foot down.