Men Adopting Female Behaviours

[sally4sara]

My family does not represent every family either but from what I observe what happened to my father is what often happens to men who marry feminists and try to have an equal relationship.

 

So you are suggesting that your life's experience is more accurate than another.

 

Well there is no point in arguing with THAT logic.

[Chicago_Guy]

I'll break it down for you, including the stoicism:

• Over-emotionalism.
  
• Whining.
  
• A lack of initiative.
  
• Irrational thinking.
  
• Mirroring.
  
• Next in a bitchy rather than shoulder shrugging way.
  
• Victim attitude.
  
• Disney princess expectations.
  
• Can't stand fat women but wants to be accepted for all of their flaws.
  
• Wants to be taken care of and protected.
  

AND worst of all:

• Passivity.
  

 

What do you mean by "mirroring"?

[Woggle]

So you are suggesting that your life's experience is more accurate than another.

 

Well there is no point in arguing with THAT logic.

 

I never said it was more accurate but I have yet to see a man who tried to have a successful marriage with a militant feminist and it turned out great. The Alan Alda types got it the worst from the misandrists. It seems that if a man is willing to stand up to the misandrists they will at least respect him if not like him.

[silverfish]

What do you mean by "mirroring"?

 

Not sure - is it something like :

 

Me: I'd really like to go to the market tomorrow, I feel like buying some cushion covers

Him: Yeah me too! Cushion covers...sounds like a cool day out

Me: Maybe we could go to that place that does the snail casserole for lunch

Him: Sure! I haven't been there since I got that projectile vomiting thing - that was a fun day out

 

*this is a work of fiction and in no way relects my actual life*

[kdark]

 

You can't really learn this from anyone, you learn behaviours growing up that are useful or not but you don't have to adopt them all, otherwise we'd all be having the same relationship as our parents, grandparents and so on

 

In an intimate relationship you are yourself completely, no need to act anyway at all, if you put on an act that'll show up pretty quickly. Of course your past shapes you to an extent, but at some point you make your own way.

 

I'm sure you don't say things like that to potential dates, but it's not just about words, it's attitude as well. If believe what you are saying, it doesn't sound as though anything is about to change within you, it sounds like you're stuck in the past (not saying you are btw)

 

I understand. I was just giving an example from my past that I had to overcome to illustrate a point.

 

And I agree that at some point, a person needs to stop blaming themselves and take some responsibility for what is wrong with your life.

[silverfish]

I never said it was more accurate but I have yet to see a man who tried to have a successful marriage with a militant feminist and it turned out great. The Alan Alda types got it the worst from the misandrists. It seems that if a man is willing to stand up to the misandrists they will at least respect him if not like him.

 

If a man is willing to stand up to women SOME will respect him if not like him. Same goes for the reverse, except men tend to equate respect with like more than women.

[Kamille]

TBF, could you explain how you came to the conclusion that the list of traits you posted are specifically "female"?

[threebyfate]

TBF, could you explain how you came to the conclusion that the list of traits you posted are specifically "female"?

Nope, not worth the grief Kamille.

[Taramere]

I'll break it down for you, including the stoicism:

• Over-emotionalism.
  
• Whining.
  
• A lack of initiative.
  
• Irrational thinking.
  
• Mirroring.
  
• Next in a bitchy rather than shoulder shrugging way.
  
• Victim attitude.
  
• Disney princess expectations.
  
• Can't stand fat women but wants to be accepted for all of their flaws.
  
• Wants to be taken care of and protected.
  

AND worst of all:

• Passivity.
  

 

I think these are traits that are often ascribed to women, but that in reality you're just as likely to see in men. Narcissism, cowardice, dishonesty, passive aggression. The less noble aspects of humanity that we can all be inclined towards in our weaker moments. People tend to be quicker to excuse emotional behaviour and weakness in women (or, at least, take the "what did you expect from a woman?" approach), but are far less forgiving of them in men. I suppose because there's still that element of "a man should be able to fight to protect his territory and his family" thinking.

 

I had a long lived relationship with a man who didn't operate like that, and I can safely say it was the most destructive and unhappy experience of my life. I come from a family of physically strong men who don't kowtow to other men. This guy, on the other hand, wasn't particularly strong physically - and he didn't exude malenes in the company of other men. He exuded mild fear covered up with pretentiousness and bravado. I wilfully filtered that out as much as I could, because I wanted him to be some sort of hero, even though he patently wasn't anything close to being a stereotypically virile, "blokey" guy. I thought I could turn him into a man...but all that happened was that he sensed I was trying to idealise him into something he wasn't, and could never be. He even said once "I'm not that man, Taramere. I can't be."

 

I think all I really made him feel was shame and perhaps humiliation. Which was the last thing I wanted, but it's so difficult with men. Sometimes it feels as though unless we lie to them/tell them endless ego-boosting half truths about how we view them, they think we're evil castrators. Yet if we're not honest with them, they won't trust us. I suppose men feel exactly the same way when we look to them for validation in areas where they don't feel they can honestly give that validation.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Taramere

[Mr White]

I'll break it down for you, including the stoicism:

• Over-emotionalism.
  
• Whining.
  
• A lack of initiative.
  
• Irrational thinking.
  
• Mirroring.
  
• Next in a bitchy rather than shoulder shrugging way.
  
• Victim attitude.
  
• Disney princess expectations.
  
• Can't stand fat women but wants to be accepted for all of their flaws.
  
• Wants to be taken care of and protected.
  

AND worst of all:

• Passivity.
  

 

So, if PUAs suck because they adopt the above female traits, then all women suck by definition since these are well.. female traits? Genious . You are way ahead of the misandrsits crowd - you hate men AND yourself;).

[Mr White]

Those listed behaviors are rather annoying for both genders. Don't know why men are being hand-picked here. No one wants that in their significant other.

 

Word up....

[Mr White]

Can we also say that women who adopt male behaviors are a turn-off? If woman want men to be men again why can't they start being women? You can't ask men to be alpha again while at the sane time calling us sexist when we don't want some ballbusting feminist.

 

:lmao:I'll break it down for you:

 

- Calls herself "alpha"

- Loudmouthed

- Selfish

- Lacks empathy

- "my way, or the highway" state of mind

- "you're wrong, period" state of mind

 

Every time I see this type of woman, I want her to stomp on my face with her stilettos while I gently weep in bliss and hand her my credit card (and balls) .

[gamma1]

Should a guy with many of these traits just not bother dating then?

[gamma1]

I think these are traits that are often ascribed to women, but that in reality you're just as likely to see in men. Narcissism, cowardice, dishonesty, passive aggression. The less noble aspects of humanity that we can all be inclined towards in our weaker moments. People tend to be quicker to excuse emotional behaviour and weakness in women (or, at least, take the "what did you expect from a woman?" approach), but are far less forgiving of them in men. I suppose because there's still that element of "a man should be able to fight to protect his territory and his family" thinking.

 

I had a long lived relationship with a man who didn't operate like that, and I can safely say it was the most destructive and unhappy experience of my life. I come from a family of physically strong men who don't kowtow to other men. This guy, on the other hand, wasn't particularly strong physically - and he didn't exude malenes in the company of other men. He exuded mild fear covered up with pretentiousness and bravado. I wilfully filtered that out as much as I could, because I wanted him to be some sort of hero, even though he patently wasn't anything close to being a stereotypically virile, "blokey" guy. I thought I could turn him into a man...but all that happened was that he sensed I was trying to idealise him into something he wasn't, and could never be. He even said once "I'm not that man, Taramere. I can't be."

 

I think all I really made him feel was shame and perhaps humiliation. Which was the last thing I wanted, but it's so difficult with men. Sometimes it feels as though unless we lie to them/tell them endless ego-boosting half truths about how we view them, they think we're evil castrators. Yet if we're not honest with them, they won't trust us. I suppose men feel exactly the same way when we look to them for validation in areas where they don't feel they can honestly give that validation.

How can that be the worst experience of your life?

 

It seems like most women keep giving bad boys chance after chance. When it's a guy who isn't overly "manly" it's the worst experience of their life and of course would not dream of dating, befriending or possibly even to talking to such a guy again.

[Mr White]

Should a guy with many of these traits just not bother dating then?

 

Nah, just turn it on her. This is how you do it:

 

Over-emotionalism ==> "I don't feel appreciated, so either shape up or ship out"

Whining ==> "I don't like it when you do that, so either shape up, or ship out"

A lack of initiative ==> "It won't kill you if you change your own tire, pick a place to eat, or make plans for the weekend just fine every once in a while, so leave me alone."

Irrational thinking ==> "Whatever, It's a family tradition."

Mirroring ==> "Stop and think about your reaction if I did the same to you"

Next in a bitchy rather than shoulder shrugging way. ==> "What?".

Victim attitude. ==> "Not applicable."

Disney princess expectations. ==> "Disney princesses can lick my balls".

Can't stand fat women but wants to be accepted for all of their flaws. ==> "You're entitled to no more flaws than I have (and preferably less)"

Wants to be taken care of and protected. ==> "You didn't show up in the hospital after my accident. Here are the divorce papers"

[Taramere]

How can that be the worst experience of your life?

 

Because he cheated on me, lied to me and finally came clean about it all in an extremely nasty manner...and when I was at my most vulnerable (at a particularly difficult time in my life, when I was a long way from home and my support network).

 

That's what weak people do. You can't trust them. They're such desperate people pleasers that they flit between personas like chameleons depending on the company they keep, telling lies in an effort to be everyone's pal, avoiding confrontation until all the lies catch up with them. Or until you're vulnerable, they smell blood and for once they get a chance to feel like the guy on top.

 

It seems like most women keep giving bad boys chance after chance. When it's a guy who isn't overly "manly" it's the worst experience of their life and of course would not dream of dating, befriending or possibly even to talking to such a guy again.

 

In my experience, the unmanly man is the bad boy. He's the bad boy because all his insecurities make him that way. He vents them by being emotionally abusive to other people in the hope that they'll end up feeling as crap about themselves as he does. If other people have different experiences of weak, somewhat effeminate men then that's good for them. Personally I don't trust them.

[You'reasian]

Mirroring ==> "Stop and think about your reaction if I did the same to you""

 

This line alone separates a good partner from a bad one. Women who are self aware and wanting great relationships usually do well in that area.

Edited July 11, 2010 by You'reasian

[Green]

Because he cheated on me, lied to me and finally came clean about it all in an extremely nasty manner...and when I was at my most vulnerable (at a particularly difficult time in my life, when I was a long way from home and my support network).

 

That's what weak people do. You can't trust them. They're such desperate people pleasers that they flit between personas like chameleons depending on the company they keep, telling lies in an effort to be everyone's pal, avoiding confrontation until all the lies catch up with them. Or until you're vulnerable, they smell blood and for once they get a chance to feel like the guy on top.

 

Weak people often do smell the blood and jump at the chance to feel on top switching their personalities.

 

In my experience, the unmanly man is the bad boy. He's the bad boy because all his insecurities make him that way. He vents them by being emotionally abusive to other people in the hope that they'll end up feeling as crap about themselves as he does. If other people have different experiences of weak, somewhat effeminate men then that's good for them. Personally I don't trust them.

 

I think there are many different versions of the bad boy. Some are definetly WEAK abusive people.

[gamma1]

Because he cheated on me, lied to me and finally came clean about it all in an extremely nasty manner...and when I was at my most vulnerable (at a particularly difficult time in my life, when I was a long way from home and my support network).

 

That's what weak people do. You can't trust them. They're such desperate people pleasers that they flit between personas like chameleons depending on the company they keep, telling lies in an effort to be everyone's pal, avoiding confrontation until all the lies catch up with them. Or until you're vulnerable, they smell blood and for once they get a chance to feel like the guy on top.

 

In my experience, the unmanly man is the bad boy. He's the bad boy because all his insecurities make him that way. He vents them by being emotionally abusive to other people in the hope that they'll end up feeling as crap about themselves as he does. If other people have different experiences of weak, somewhat effeminate men then that's good for them. Personally I don't trust them.

You never mentioned the cheating and lying and I really wonder why. I find cheating to be one of the most disgusting, pathetic things that someone can do.

 

How can you make such a generalization about "weak" people? Is it based on that one cheating ex only or based on a large number of people? I have to some degree many but not all of the charactistics from her list. Is it so terrible that I don't have huge muscles (I've barely average for a man) and choose to pick my battles rather than constatly looking for a fight? I'm honest with people and don't change personas. I don't cheat at all and am reliable. I feel that people like me get easily lumped in with people like your cheating ex. I'm also not sure what men would count as "somewhat effeminate".

 

Maybe your definition of weak is different than mine.

[You'reasian]

 

 

 

In my experience, the unmanly man is the bad boy. He's the bad boy because all his insecurities make him that way. He vents them by being emotionally abusive to other people in the hope that they'll end up feeling as crap about themselves as he does. If other people have different experiences of weak, somewhat effeminate men then that's good for them. Personally I don't trust them.

 

Your definition of the unmanly man is opposite of tbf's.

 

Can an unmanly man be tough?

[You'reasian]

The O.P is nothing but a baiter.... and biatch.

 

Can't even backup her list to Kamille.

 

I'm no manly man.

 

I do find baiting somewhat weak though.

[Mr White]

Weak people often do smell the blood and jump at the chance to feel on top switching their personalities.

 

I think there are many different versions of the bad boy. Some are definetly WEAK abusive people.

 

Weak people (particularly from a somewhat privileged background) also often feel compelled to educate everybody else how "only the strong survive and succeed". How could it be any other way .

[You'reasian]

Weak people (particularly from a somewhat privileged background) also often feel compelled to educate everybody else how "only the strong survive and succeed". How could it be any other way .

 

This comes from the old adage that money is power, I guess. It certainly isn't everything, gotta have attributes. I liked Green's thread on tenacity a while back. Good stuff!

[Taramere]

I think there are many different versions of the bad boy. Some are definetly WEAK abusive people.

 

Yes, I think weakness is by definition a negative and is often at the root of abusive behaviour.

 

You never mentioned the cheating and lying and I really wonder why.

 

Probably because I sickened myself of talking about it long ago.

 

How can you make such a generalization about "weak" people? Is it based on that one cheating ex only or based on a large number of people? I have to some degree many but not all of the charactistics from her list. Is it so terrible that I don't have huge muscles (I've barely average for a man) and choose to pick my battles rather than constatly looking for a fight? I'm honest with people and don't change personas. I don't cheat at all and am reliable. I feel that people like me get easily lumped in with people like your cheating ex. I'm also not sure what men would count as "somewhat effeminate".

 

Maybe your definition of weak is different than mine.

 

I think your definition of weak is somewhat different from mine.

 

As far as muscles go...subtle demonstrations of male strength are appealing, but that doesn't mean men who aren't physically strong are automatically unappealing. It just means that in one particular realm of manliness (eg strength) they're disadvantaged. Some men might compensate successfully for that by cultivating a skinny rock star type demeanour, or the starving artist in the attic look. The kind of image that often draws out women's mothering instincts.

 

My definition of human strength and character is really summed up by the poem If by Rudyard Kipling. The qualities outlined in that poem are about knowing yourself, having faith in yourself - and generally doing the right thing purely as part of being true to yourself, rather than for any rewards doing the right thing might bring you. I think it can apply to women as well as men, but it just so happens that the word "manly" tends often used with regard to strong character.

 

I think, Gamma, that we're all flawed and we all have a tendency to be the things TBF outlined in her list. Especially when we're at a low ebb or short on self confidence. When you read the list, it's a negative list...but many of those negatives could be the result of potentially positive traits being taken to unhealthy extremes.

 

I mentioned coming from a family of physically strong men. Emotionally? Every time he lost a pet dog or cat, my dad would cry. Without exception. He also visits neighbours when they're sick and frail. Will do favours for them - not expecting anything in return, but quite simply because although he has a volatile temper he's a fundamentally good guy who enjoys helping people. When he loses his temper or is in a bad mood, he can be whiny, over emotional and irrational...as can anyone. The good outweighs the bad, however. Like most real life people, he's a combination of the stereotypically masculine (noisy, blustering, physically strong) and the stereotypically feminine (emotional, quite nurturing).

 

I don't think it would be healthy for anyone to read down TBF's list and say "that's me! That defines me, and I'm just fine with that." The list is a negative one. If you think it defines you, then you're either judging yourself too harshly or you have some work to do in order to become a happier and more confident guy.

 

In your post, you've gone on to list some positives...so you see that there's far more to you than what's on TBF's list.

 

What do I mean by effeminate? I suppose I mean somewhat camp gestures which tend to strike me as pretentious and narcissistic. Men who spend a long time staring at themselves in the mirror, preening and fussing around with their hair. I mean I'm guessing that privately a lot of men do, but it's not something I enjoy witnessing.

[sally4sara]

Is it odd that I think this thread was inspired by a night of no sleep and a crying baby boy?