Putting Dad in the backseat...

[giotto]

Vestigal,

 

We've had the talks.. you can read "Way too young to be in sexless marriage" to catch up on my entire, messed up situation but here's the cliff notes:

 

• we've had two big talks (1 a year ago, and the 2nd almost 2 months ago) - no changes, just more distance between us and frequent cold shoulders
  
• no matter how delicately I've tried to express my feelings about unmet needs w/out trying to blame her, she gets defensive and makes excuses instead of agreeing that it's a problem or expressing interest in changing
  
• she usually ignores my carefully crafted messages and tries to read between the lines and translates it as "you're an awful wife"
  
• she doesn't think sex is essential or an expression of love
  
• in her words, sex has "never done much for her" which I take to mean even before we had kids
  
• she doesn't miss sex when we don't have it
  
• my sex drive which used to be lamborgini high is falling by the day because when we do have sex 2-3 times a year, she lays there motionless only in missionary position only and lets me do 100% of the effort. I have to move her hand onto me if I want her to touch me.
  
• currently i'm trying to get her to go to counseling, but I've asked twice so far and she's said no both times
  
• i bought the "5 love languages book" but she put it away in my drawer and when I encourage her to read it because "i've read most of it and it's a pretty good book", I get excuses about her being busy
  
• i tell her affection is important to me and it's missing from our marriage and is a bad example for our kids, i'm told "my parents weren't affectionate and it's not easy for me".
  
• i think she might be depressed some
  
• she has a low image of her body; she hates it because it's slightly overweight although she hides the weight well and i think she still looks thin
  
• i think she doesn't like sex because it requires her to trust me and give up some control of her body to me (vulnerability), and she's a very protective, private person
  
• i ask her, "what's wrong? would you like to talk about it" and i'm told "nothing, i don't want to talk about it right now.. later" but later never happens
  
• i used to go out of my way to try to prop up her self esteem and show her affection, and praise her, only to get a lukewarm response but now i'm losing the will to do it because i've probably got one foot of our marriage at this point
  

Disclaimer: that's all of the ugly stuff and no it's not fair to her. She's actually a great person and a great mom and a mostly good wife. She cooks, cleans, and takes care of the kids more than I do because they just gravitate to her and she's a SAHM. She's a very smart, independent, strong woman. She's just selfish and is horrible with communication, intimacy, and affection.

 

So if you can fix all of that, call up Oprah and you may be the next Dr. Phil.

 

My wife used to be very much like yours, apart from the sex that, when we had it, she really enjoyed (mystery...). Unfortunately, you need to show her that you mean business. I had to pack my bag (twice!) to draw her attention. It's not a pleasant thing to do and she might even be happy about it (), but it seems to me that you've run out of options...

[Married_and_Lonely]

It appears you have a firm handle on trying to investigate and fix the issue. She won't agree to counseling...push it. Tell her you need her to help you. Trust maybe an issue. Do you know if abuse is part of her past? Just a thought. Would you consider going to counseling alone if you haven't already? If you want her and your family intact...you may have a fight on your hands. I hate to use the word force...but there has to be a way to get her into counseling.

 

Yes, I've gone to counseling alone twice so far. I wanted to scope it out (neither of us have gone before) and make sure I liked the counselor before I tried to get my wife there. But I've suspended my sessions until I can get my wife to go because I don't think much more progress can be made without her participation.

 

I'm thinking I may try the angle, "I'm worried about you. I think you might be depressed because you're sad alot. I really think you should go to this counselor I've been seeing and talk to her. I'll go with you or you can go alone at first - whichever you prefer." And I can tell you what her response will be - "You've been going to a counselor without telling me?!?"

[blossom0123]

My wife used to be very much like yours, apart from the sex that, when we had it, she really enjoyed (mystery...). Unfortunately, you need to show her that you mean business. I had to pack my bag (twice!) to draw her attention. It's not a pleasant thing to do and she might even be happy about it (), but it seems to me that you've run out of options...

 

I agree, give her an ultimatum. I got one the other day and it was really helpful in so many ways. She sounds like she's in some seriously depressed and bad state, and needs something really dramatic to happen to start pulling herself out of it.

 

I really appreciate that you want to save your marriage, but I think you are being too patient.

[Married_and_Lonely]

But an ultimatum would be meaningless without me being prepared to back it up and actually leave her and the kids- right? I'm not to that point yet.

 

Am I miserable? pretty much.

Have I given up? Almost.

Am I ready to drop the nuke and destroy our family? No.

 

How can I leave my potentially depressed wife when she needs me most? And my 5 year old daughter has very fragile feelings; I don't think she would cope well at all with daddy moving out. In her world, that's never even something that's entered her mind as a possibilty.

[Stung]

I did everything for her and our children, short of breastfeeding them myself! I tried very hard after their birth to recreate the spark, but I failed, because she wasn't interested! But it must have been my fault somehow... even getting up every night to feed the baby for 6 months (after she stopped breastfeeding) and sleeping next to them on the floor so she could have a rest wasn't enough...

 

 

Thank you Giotto, you proved my point.

 

The sex-depriving really has little or nothing to do with how much the husband does/does not help with child care.

 

 

In Giotto's case, it would appear not. In many others, it does.

[Married_and_Lonely]

Are you ready, willing and able to remain indefinitely in a sexless marriage?

 

Absolutely not. If it was just sex, and she found a way to enjoy it and be at least a little responsive, even it was infrequent - then maybe. But I'm 31 and I think about sex CONSTANTLY. It's not just the intercourse that's great - it's everything else that I'm missing out on. My primary love language is physical touch. I love kissing, holding hands, foreplay, cuddling, just touching each other, slow dancing, massaging, whispering in her ear and then kissing her on the neck. I don't think I can keep my sanity while being deprived of these things that I love.

 

"Under what set of conditions/contingencies am I willing to temporarily remain in a sexless marriage, and for how long?"

 

Okay, so not indefinitely. But if she's depressed, then maybe medication would help her alot. I have a friend who almost got divorced, but his wife started taking anti-depression medicine and it turned their marriage around. She wasn't such a pain the in the ass to be around anymore.

[hopeful1980]

Wow. My friend and I just had a similar conversation today. She just had a baby and I've got two toddlers and I'm currently pregnant with twins.

 

Anyway, her baby wasn't even born 2 weeks ago and her husband is already pestering her for sex. After pushing out a 7 pound boy, having your vag stitched up, and then having an infant literally attached to your boob 24/7, sex is the single last thing in her mind. She was almost insulted when he proposed it. He had the nerve to say, "You're not going to make me wait the whole six weeks are you?"

 

It's like some men just don't get it. I understand women don't get it either. When it comes to sex after kids, it's really a stalemate. I tried to explain to my friend that after a year of her being pregnant and barely getting any, her husband wants his wife back. Unfortunately, I don't think she's ever coming back - at least not the same as she was before.

 

It was very difficult for me to switch from "mommy-mode" to "wife-mode" when I had my first baby too. Not only did I have so many extra responsibilites that I didn't have when I was just a wife, I now didn't view my body in the same way. There were stretch marks where there weren't before. My breasts hurt and constantly leaked milk. I no longer saw my breasts as something sexual, but as something functional. My husband grabbing at them only turned me off, when prior to me having the baby it would have excited me. It was a difficult time because while I was trying to understand my new role as a mother, my husband only wanted the "old" me back. It seemed for him not much changed, but for me EVERYTHING changed.

 

I would say what changed for me was coming here and reading how essential sex is to a man in a marriage. How men don't really feel loved by their wives without it. After understanding that, withholding it seemed cruel to me. Another thing that helped me was the fact that my husband started taking care of me. While I was taking care of the baby, he was taking care of me. He stepped up to the plate and really participated in helping me and I appreciated it (I still do). He initiates in-house dates with me after the kids have gone to bed. He watches the show I want to watch, or he plays a board game with me. And after, he doesn't come over to me like he wants anything. It means alot to me that he enjoys my company without feeling like he is doing these things only to have sex after (even if he is, he doesn't act like it).

 

I'm pregnant now and we don't really have sex that often, but I know once I deliver and have healed up we will be back to 2/3x a week easily. I love him plain and simple, and I want him to be happy.

[Scrybe]

I don't get how you don't get it. Of course it's an act of love for my wife to bear my children. I can't do it but if I could I would share the burden. And for the record I'm not one of those husbands who leaves most of the child rearing to the woman. I was a single dad for several years before remarrying and I put in 50/50 with raising our children. My wife isn't one of those moms you see struggling with 2 or three children running around town on the weekends running errands while her hubby is out playing golf or tinkering in the garage. I took the kids off her hands on the weekends, I split cooking, cleaning and bed time duty with her 50/50. We both work full time jobs but she works from home so she around the kids more than I am but again...I make up for that on the weekends.

 

Having said that...

 

I totally get where some men are coming from. When my second wife had our first child it was like a switch went off in her head and I instantly became the least important person in her life.

 

It was a great and valid fear of mine that my wife would turn into one of those women who believes the husband/wife relationship would have to be put on hold for 18 years or more until SHE was done raising the kids.

 

I took a lot of work and dialogue and a little bit of therapy to smooth things out. I was a strong believer that you need to take care of yourself, your spouse and your family and you don't need to sacrifice one for the other. It's a cop out. Here what we learned:

 

1. Because of her upbringing she believed it was her role to sacrifice herself for her family...that included her time spent with me. For either of us to have any desires that didn't involve the children was initially viewed as selfish.
   
2. She was raised to believe that personal happiness is simply selfishness (as a result her mother was very bitter to her growing up. I didn't want that passed on to my kids)
   
3. Our families lived far away so we had no support system other than myself. She just didn't trust me to be there for her the way she needed me to.
   
4. I was completely unaware of her deep fears and the reasons she felt she had to do it all on her own
   
5. My constant whining and complaining made me look like just another child she had to deal with...sacrifice for.
   

The bottom line is that we worked it out. My fears and her fears were valid and as a couple we dealt with them gradually and over time. For you to simply dismiss it like it doesn't exist amazes me. Even my wife finally saw my point of view and understood. If you as a man can go 18 years without your wife's attention to the relationship then fine but most men don't want that. At least that isn't what I signed on for.

 

 

 

I really can't imagine how it's possible for a woman to show her husband more love than by gestating, giving birth to, and raising his children.

 

Seriously.

 

As a man/husband/father, how is it possible to interpret a woman's/wife's/mother's focus on the children as anything other but a form of love for the father of those children (as well as for the children themselves, of course)?

 

I was fortunate enough to assist my wife through three labors and observe what she went through, and give a little bit of encouragement and help while she was going through labor and giving birth.

 

Again, seriously: how is it possible for a woman to do more than that? I never have interpreted my wife's activities as a mother as somehow "depriving" me of her love in some way.

 

I guess maybe this all boils down to husbands/fathers feeling deprived of sex or something?

 

I just don't get this issue at all.

 

Guys, it's your own freaking children you're talking about, isn't it? Don't you want their mom taking care of them?

[Honorable_Venerable]

 

Having said that...

 

I totally get where some men are coming from. When my second wife had our first child it was like a switch went off in her head and I instantly became the least important person in her life.

 

It was a great and valid fear of mine that my wife would turn into one of those women who believes the husband/wife relationship would have to be put on hold for 18 years or more until SHE was done raising the kids.

 

 

1. Because of her upbringing she believed it was her role to sacrifice herself for her family...that included her time spent with me. For either of us to have any desires that didn't involve the children was initially viewed as selfish.
   

I think (based on my experience), there's quite a lot of this - once the children come along, the "marriage" is irrelevant to "the family", although without the former there never would have been the latter! If it isn't for the good of "the family" (i.e. the children) it's unnecessary, irrelevant, frivolous or self-indulgent. At by the time you wake up to the fact it isn't (necessarily) any of those things, it's too late.

 

1. She was raised to believe that personal happiness is simply selfishness
   

This I think is more common still. I don't know where it comes from, but this horrible, pernicious view that wanting to be happy and fulfilled for yourself, rather than for the rest of the world, is so wrong, is probably at the back of so many failed relationships. It's as if you are expected to believe that your life is meaningless unless it's lived entirely in the service of others.

[xxoo]

If it isn't for the good of "the family" (i.e. the children) it's unnecessary, irrelevant, frivolous or self-indulgent. At by the time you wake up to the fact it isn't (necessarily) any of those things, it's too late.

 

My take on this, as a mother:

 

What an awful burden to put on your kids, being the compete focus of your attention and happiness. I'm talking kids here--not babies.

 

Children need role models. That includes modeling a healthy relationship, healthy balance, and healthy self care.

 

Kids also need some relief from the micromanagement of helicopter parenting. It does kids NO GOOD to be micromanaged. Kids need to be given the space to try and fail if they are ever to try and succeed. These overinvolved, well intentioned mothers are hurting more than their marriages. They are hurting their kids!

 

Balance is good for the kids and the marriage.

[Nikki Sahagin]

Some women find that being a mother and bearing children is the ultimate experience and purpose of their existances. I'm not personally maternal, but I have a best friend who is OBSESSED with the idea of being a mother; she'd have been pregnant at 13 if she could have gotten away with it. For her its not the relationship or the man, but the baby. I think SOME women do prioritise the child ahead of the man from the start, as in that is their hidden agenda. But I don't think thats true of most women, I think for most women they just find this role forced on them or fall into it because of course traditionally the father works and the mother raises the children, only whereas the 9-5 grind stops, the child will still be demanding more and more. I remember a man at work complaining because his wife rang him to ask if he could come home and help with their two children when he wanted to go to the pub after work, as an example.

 

I actually think we need to re-evaluate parenthood and work. I think the western world is too obsessed with work and long hours making fathers distant and ineffectual in most cases. Also parents are expected to cater to every whim in a society that makes them feel guilty or like failures if there childrens wants rather than needs aren't catered for and so many parents spoil and pander to their childs every whim and for all their time, effort, energy and money, they aren't really raising kids with any integrity, morals or balance.

 

This isn't true of all parents, but I think the preoccupation with work, greed and keeping up with the neighbours makes dads work too much and mothers pander too often. I also don't think most parents are on the same page with parenting, either the mother takes over (as is the case with one friend I have) and belittles or undervalues what the father can offer, or the father checks himself out of the situation and focuses more on work and friends.

 

I think people tend to fit their life's around their children, whereas realistically, the children have to fit into the parents life's and marriage. Of course sacrifice and compromise must occur but children should be encouraged to persue friendships, hobbies, learning, independence etc and be part of the family rather than the centre that the family revolves around.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Nikki Sahagin

[SarahRose]

Married and Lonely, I can very much identify with your original post. I have kind of asked the same question on the opposite side. It seemed to me once my husband and I got married his job became priority in his life. This was a second marriage for us both, we had custody of 4 children and it seemed I became the instant main parent role. Trying to get him to engage was nearly impossible......I asked him what he wanted to do with the kids as far as disapline, we'd agree on the way to handle the situation and then he woudl not come thru on his part. We later had a child of our own and I did still very much try to keep my husband involved and I would say he was more involved with our youngest. But what did happen is I was home the most, husband's job had him out of town at times so I knew what was going on in the home. When husband was home he seemed disconnected and soon to avoid arguements I found myself doing more with the kids and just doing everything that needed to be done without asking for his help. I think that made him resentful but I was tired of the games that's seemed to be going on, he was not communicating well. I don't know if any of this helps you. It would be my guess that your wife probably did not seek this but ratehr it just happened and I wonder what part your wife feels you play in what has lead up to your sitaution. Of my friends and even my adult chidlren who have their own families now, I do see for the most aprt the women seem to be more involved with the children than the men tend to be. My husband was glad when the kids started moving out, for me it was sad, I had spent so much of my time and my life involved in them. Today, my oldest is 29, I am still the one more engaged with our adult children and grandchildren. My hsuband seems to ahve more fun with his buddies than spending time with family.

 

I get the impression that a lot a men really don't care about marriage and children other than what they get out of it or how it makes them look.

 

They conveniently find jobs where they have to be away a lot or work very long hours. It's avoidance. Raising kids is hard work and they want the status it brings without having to do anything. Same with marriage. They think marriage is built in cook and maid and regular sex. They don't want to participate or give to any of it so they make excuses to stay away.

[giotto]

I get the impression that a lot a men really don't care about marriage and children other than what they get out of it or how it makes them look.

 

They conveniently find jobs where they have to be away a lot or work very long hours. It's avoidance. Raising kids is hard work and they want the status it brings without having to do anything. Same with marriage. They think marriage is built in cook and maid and regular sex. They don't want to participate or give to any of it so they make excuses to stay away.

 

 

all of my friends are fathers very much involved with their family and children, are good providers, work hard, love their children, do their share of chores at home and cook well for wives and kids... you have a very bleak view of men or you've met the wrong ones...

[blossom0123]

But an ultimatum would be meaningless without me being prepared to back it up and actually leave her and the kids- right? I'm not to that point yet.

 

Am I miserable? pretty much.

Have I given up? Almost.

Am I ready to drop the nuke and destroy our family? No.

 

How can I leave my potentially depressed wife when she needs me most? And my 5 year old daughter has very fragile feelings; I don't think she would cope well at all with daddy moving out. In her world, that's never even something that's entered her mind as a possibilty.

 

Sure, I see that and the general point was more that something drastic seems to be needed to snap her out of her state. But you could give her an ultimatum with a time line, i.e. not packing your bags tomorrow, but saying something along the lines of I want to give our marriage one more year / x moths (insert whatever time frame you think suitable) to try and work things out, but if x, y, z doesn't change I can't stay with the way things are now - and then outline some of the things both of you have to do to improve the situation.

 

That would give her what she doesn't have now (ie having to face consequences/her part of the responsibility of the state of affairs) but at the same time doesn't mean that you wil be abandoning her now when she is in a vulnerable state.

[Married_and_Lonely]

Raising kids is hard work and they want the status it brings without having to do anything. Same with marriage. They think marriage is built in cook and maid and regular sex. They don't want to participate or give to any of it so they make excuses to stay away.

 

 

I have one of those "conveniently demanding" jobs that made me work until 8:30 pm all week bringing home the bread for the family so they can have a nice big house, new clothes, and a good lifestyle. And this weekend? I've helped with toilet training our 3 yr old, bathed the kids, took my wife on a dinner date last night and made extra effort to lead an engaging conversation with her and tell her she looked pretty, made lunch for the kids, read books to them at night time, watching them this afternoon while mom goes to a movie with her friend (my idea for her to do this since i worked late last week and she needed a break) and I've been playing on the floor with them alot. So try not to be so jaded just because you've had a run of bad luck with men in your life. There are good men out there.

 

Not all dad's willingly jump in the backseat and check out of the family time. And the guys at my work.. most of them do just as much as me at home, probably more actually.

[Married_and_Lonely]

something drastic seems to be needed to snap her out of her state. But you could give her an ultimatum with a time line, i.e. not packing your bags tomorrow, but saying something along the lines of I want to give our marriage one more year / x moths (insert whatever time frame you think suitable) to try and work things out.

 

I get your point, and appreciate you taking time to offer me advice. Relationships aren't easy - just look at the high rate of failure for evidence of that!

 

I'll think about it and see if there's something like what you've proposed that I can say (and plan to follow through on). I plan to probably have this convo with her tonight. didn't want to do it on friday and then face a whole weekend of confrontation.

[blossom0123]

I get your point, and appreciate you taking time to offer me advice. Relationships aren't easy - just look at the high rate of failure for evidence of that!

 

I'll think about it and see if there's something like what you've proposed that I can say (and plan to follow through on). I plan to probably have this convo with her tonight. didn't want to do it on friday and then face a whole weekend of confrontation.

 

Good luck!

[xxoo]

None of my comments are directed at you, M&L....

 

Don't let ANYONE--on this thread, your w, or yourself--make you feel guilty for working hard to make money to support your family. That's your primary function--"the provider."

 

Every family is different. It is not true that every father's primary function is "provider". Regardless, women will usually be dissatified with a man who is ONLY a "provider". It takes more to be a good father and partner.

 

When you turn yourself into a second/subordinate/ stand-in for "mom", then yeah you do jump into the back seat.

 

 

Why would your wife want to have sex with a "mom"? She wants a husband/lover in the bedroom. Not another "mom."

 

No, we don't want a "stand in mom". We want you to BE a DAD. Fathering is super hot

[Honorable_Venerable]

None of my comments are directed at you, M&L....

 

 

 

Every family is different. It is not true that every father's primary function is "provider". Regardless, women will usually be dissatified with a man who is ONLY a "provider". It takes more to be a good father and partner.

 

No, we don't want a "stand in mom". We want you to BE a DAD. Fathering is super hot

Whilst I don't entirely disagree with you, my own experience, and what gets posted here suggests many women define dad as "provider, worker, source of money and labour, target for insults and abuse, NOT a partner".

[Honorable_Venerable]

 

LOL, everything's supposed to be "equal," yet YOU are still expected to take HER out on DATES. Why? If you buy her a nice dinner then she will have sex with you? Is that the reasoning?

 

Don't you work hard every day? Why didn't SHE take YOU out on a date? Why didn't you take EACH OTHER on a date?

 

This is not mere semantics. It sounds like your wife has a sense of entitlement.

A lot of women do have just that. She doesn't have to take you on a date. She's married you, she doesn't have to chase. She's had your child - she doesn't have to prove how much she cares about you EVER AGAIN. You, on the other hand...

 

Frankly it sounds like you work so hard at your job that what REALLY should be happening is when you get home you get to eat a nice quiet dinner drink a cold beer and your wife keeps the kids out of your hair.

 

This is part of the trope that no matter how hard a person works outside the home, anyone staying at home with children is working harder and longer. It's become so ingrained as a "truth" that you could spend twelve hours digging coal and still be told that you haven't worked as hard as the person who looks after the children. Looking after children is hard work, but it does NOT have ther monopoly on effort.

 

 

No wonder you are having trouble with your wife. You have her way up on a pedestal. You're working your rear off for this woman and your family and she has zero appreciation for you. She takes YOU for granted--not the other way around. Did she make an effort to tell you that you look handsome? No? Why not?

See above. This is another trope - you have to put your wife on a pedestal, because if you don't, if you expect her to make an effort and be equal, you're mistreating her. What you deserve doesn't matter - it isn't about you.

 

WTF??? Why does she need to go to a movie with a "friend" while you watch the kids? Don't you get to go to the movies with a friend? Or if she wants to go to the movies why not hire a babysitter for a few hours and YOU go WITH HER???

 

Why does she need to be away from you? In any case whatever the reason, letting her go to the movies is not going to get you sex! How absurd. You're acting like the freaking nanny/babysitter.

 

There seems to be this view that somehow if you do certain things, you get more sex. This is, in fact, a myth. The amount, frequency and quality of sex is fixed at an upper limit - it can go down, but not up. Failure to do some of these things may move the frequency down, but nothing you do will move it up.

 

If you make romantic gestures, your wife will have sex with you. Wrong. Romantic gestures are an expectation. If you fail to deliver, you will get even less sex.

 

If you help around the house, you'll get more sex. Wrong. You're now not a sex partner, you're a skivvy. Failure to help will reduce the frequency, doing it won't increase it.

 

If you complement her, you'll get more sex. This is very wrong, because you're obviously only doing to get sex, and this will set off the "you only think about one thing" timebomb.

 

 

 

You worked late but SHE needed the break. What is wrong with this picture?

 

See above. How long / hard you work is not relevant to this conversation.

Clearly you're a great dad. This has nothing to do with getting sex from your wife, unfortunately.

When you turn yourself into a second/subordinate/ stand-in for "mom", then yeah you do jump into the back seat.

 

Why would your wife want to have sex with a "mom"? She wants a husband/lover in the bedroom. Not another "mom."

Evidently she doesn't want ANYONE in the bedroom. She wants a handyman / au pair / nanny / line of credit outside the bedroom and at best a member of a silent celibate order in the bedroom.

[giotto]

I have one of those "conveniently demanding" jobs that made me work until 8:30 pm all week bringing home the bread for the family so they can have a nice big house, new clothes, and a good lifestyle. And this weekend? I've helped with toilet training our 3 yr old, bathed the kids, took my wife on a dinner date last night and made extra effort to lead an engaging conversation with her and tell her she looked pretty, made lunch for the kids, read books to them at night time, watching them this afternoon while mom goes to a movie with her friend (my idea for her to do this since i worked late last week and she needed a break) and I've been playing on the floor with them alot. So try not to be so jaded just because you've had a run of bad luck with men in your life. There are good men out there.

 

Not all dad's willingly jump in the backseat and check out of the family time. And the guys at my work.. most of them do just as much as me at home, probably more actually.

 

you are probably putting her even more off by being so "perfect"... honestly. She feels under pressure and bye bye sex...

[Married_and_Lonely]

VV and giotto,

 

Thanks for the spirited replies. I think I'm coming off as a bigger P&ssy on here than I really am. Yes, I got my turn to do something away from the house this weekend. I went to dinner with my buddy last night and then we hung out at his place drinking beer and such.

 

And yes, I bathed my kids once, but my wife bathed them probably the 3 times before that. And I called it "took her on a date" but, for the sake of toal disclosure, I was just trying to sound chivalrous to impress SarahRose because of her view that all men are lazy, selfish, sex-craved dogs.

 

I'm not doing these things to get sex - I know I'm probably not getting sex most nights since 2 -3 times in 365 days is not a good batting average. The goal isn't sex. I wanted to play with my kids this weekend because it's fun to play with them. I wanted to give my wife a break because it makes her a more patient mom with the kids and a happier person in general.

 

Anyways, I wanted to get that out and stick up for myself a little.

[Married_and_Lonely]

Good luck!

 

I talked to my W last night and she agreed to join me in MC without me having to threat moving out or a D, so that was good. I'm calling today to make the appointment I think this will be really good for us. Thanks again for the support.

[Married_and_Lonely]

you are probably putting her even more off by being so "perfect"... honestly. She feels under pressure and bye bye sex...

 

Maybe, but I think she just takes it all for granted. It's so hard for her to say thank you, that she says it under her breath and without eye contact. Those thank you's don't do much to make me feel appreciated.

 

Sorry, I think I hijacked my own thread. LOL! I think we were talking about backseats somewhere in here.

[Married_and_Lonely]

The second problem is, if your wife is NOT cheating, then apparently she believes that a no sex marriage is healthy/normal, she doesn't seem to perceive it as a problem, really. That's a matter for which she needs IC individual counseling. MC is not going to help if your wife goes into it insisting that the problem is that you want sex more than 2-3x a year, or that you are wrong to want more sex with her.

 

I SERIOUSLY don't think she's cheating; I'd be SHOCKED! She rode with the friend together from my house to and from the movie. The friend came into my house both before they left and when they got back, and they talked about the movie some. I just think my wife is a selfish prude that doesn't like sex because it's a bit gross to her maybe, she doesn't like her body so she doesn't like me seeing her naked, etc. She doesn't like how sex requires you to give up some control of your body to someone else. Even when I massage her shoulders I have to constantly tell her to relax because she subconsciously clinches her shoulders alot. And she doesn't think that our 2 -3x a year is that big of a deal. Yes, I know this doesn't sound right to most normal thinking adults. Maybe the affair warning signs are there, but I really don't think that's the case.