Great husband, amazing father but...

[TaraMaiden]

Please forgive TM; I was referring to your post, the fairly obvious deceleration of acceptance and the clarity of your Godless viewpoint.

Nothing wrong with a godless viewpoint. it is as legitimately held as any other. I don't believe in God, and that's my right. And I am equally entitled to have a viewpoint.

 

Anyone can be an intellectual giant if they're allowed to make the rules as they go.

Could you clarify where I have indicated that people are allowed to make the rules as they go? What rules?

 

You thinking and reasoning is based on a 'me first' attitude,

Again, I'm going to have to ask you to give me a concrete example of where I have indicated that.

while every marriage study (church based or otherwise) ever published concludes that marriage is utterly dependent on each spouse giving more than they're taking

 

Whilst I consider such studies to be correct, (read that again...) I'd appreciate it if you backed your statement with a link to both a church-based study and a non-church based one.

 

If that be true, please tell me where your advice fits in?

Which specific bit of advice have I given that doesn't fit according to you?

if you read my posts - I haven't actually given any advice, anywhere. I've mainly recounted my own experience.

 

I'm not here to convince or convert anyone TM, just a respondent. I didn't invent the concept of right and wrong, but I do believe it exists.

 

as do I. I'm not sure I'm getting your point here.

 

Here's another truth to ponder; there are no atheists in foxholes.

Actually, there are. Or there were five I knew of.

One grandfather and four uncles.

All fought in wars and doubtless found themselves in foxholes at one point or another, and none had a belief in God.

Your point being?

Edited July 16, 2010 by TaraMaiden

[rootbeer]

Again, thank you all. Tara, you did touch on a lot of the things I am feeling and going through at this moment. I completely agree that a marriage takes work and that everyday isn't going to be *perfect*. We have always been best friends and an amazing team but somewhere along the way the spark fizzled and the my heart drifted away.

 

Religion is not at all a factor in my decision to stay married or not. We were married in a civil ceremony and are not religious.

 

Blossom, I will keep you in my thoughts. This is certainly a long and winding road we are on. (((hugs)))

[sumdude]

I completely agree that a marriage takes work and that everyday isn't going to be *perfect*. We have always been best friends and an amazing team but somewhere along the way the spark fizzled and the my heart drifted away.

 

So how did you or he change in a way that lost it? This is really about sex right?

[Steadfast]

Tera, the last time I posted a link it was tagged by the admin. It is not difficult to find marriage studies on the internet! There are thousands.

 

As for posting, are you trying to say you only relate personal experiences? Excuse me for assuming, but what you wrote was clearly validating to me. The summary; fell out of love with husband, mistakenly put if off, but now both you and your ex are the better for it. That's supporting/encouraging a decision to leave the marriage TM, whether you like to admit it or not.

 

If I am mistaken, I apologize.

 

My point is simply this; for those who feel that butterfly romance, extreme passion or any other emotion that tells us we're 'in love' be in place at all times during marriage, a large pitfall awaits. Through the course of time, life's unattractive elements are sure to pop up, and those things -the number being almost unlimited- are attraction killers. What about an injury or illness that takes away someone's ability to sexually perform? These things must (and evidently, they can) be fought through to reach a place of deeper understanding. I am amazed and flabbergasted that people TAKE VOWS to do exactly this, then somehow later in life decide that it simply doesn't apply to them anymore?!? Where is the integrity? Where is the conviction behind one's words? Where is strength the of one's promise?

 

The only way to justify it is; what I want, when I want it. Does that sound like a formula for happiness, peacefulness or contentment to you? What of value was ever built using such a foundation? Isn't weakness...weak?

 

TM, I'll conclude this by saying that I don't think you realize the power of your own words. If *all of this* just occurred by happenstance, then there is truly no foundational element for a belief system. Freeforall. Yet, even those who believe that continue to selectively demand justice; as long as it does not interfere with their 'right' to decide on other, 'more personal' issues. Sorry to say that your 'right' to believe is indeed a God given one, made possible because our creator does not force anything on anyone.

 

And neither can we, ultimately.

 

I do appreciate your intellect TM, and your politeness in presenting your viewpoint. No doubt you are a pleasant, well spoken person. Ultimately, this poster will decide for herself and then learn...like the rest of us.

[quercus.robur]

But I know, from first-hand experience, that once that kind of passionate kick has gone, you can never get it back, because all attempts are contrived and you feel false and as if you're living a lie.

I went approximately the last 15 years without having sex with my ex-husband. after a marriage of 23 years, we knocked it on the head, both having agreed that the relationship had, in essence, completely gone total belly-up, about 12 years previously.

TM,

do you suggest that you should have split up 15/12 years back?

[linwood]

Here's another truth to ponder; there are no atheists in foxholes.

 

Your cliched statement above obviously holds no "Truth".

 

....responding to religious overtones at the funeral, his younger brother Rich stated that "Pat isn't with God. He's ****ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's ****ing dead."[7] Another article quotes him as having told then-general manager of the Seattle Seahawks Bob Ferguson in December 2003 "you know I'm not religious."[8]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman#Religious_and_political_beliefs

[blossom0123]

Rootbeer, have you had a proper discussion with your husband yet? I really recommend it. It's full drama and really painful at ours, but definitely needed to get this going to move the process on...

[TaraMaiden]

TM,

do you suggest that you should have split up 15/12 years back?

No, I suggest that our relationship had actually irreversibly altered 12/15 years previously. we stayed together for a further decade+ because of convenience. But we both realised that, and knew that there was nothing between us, other than a mutual companionable bond, of support and parenthood.

Both my ex- and I used to work closely with an organisation called Marriage Care.

They run a full counselling service, but also run pre-marriage workshops for the Roman catholic church.

Both of us were with them as workshop assistants (and organisers) for 3 years, and I personally had commenced training as a relationship counsellor, but had to interrupt this due to a family move abroad.

My ex- and I learnt invaluable communication skills and how to support the dynamics of a relationship. so he and I were more privileged than most couples are, when it came to effective communication.

This is what made our separation so mutually acceptable and facilitated a smooth break between us.

It was no less a disappointment and sad situation. But we faced it, because in spite of all attempts, on both sides, to Make It Work - we couldn't find a way through the fact that the intimately emotional side of the relationship had run completely dry.

I hope this helps to construct a more "complete" picture of 'where I'm coming from'....

 

Tera, the last time I posted a link it was tagged by the admin. It is not difficult to find marriage studies on the internet! There are thousands.

I take your point. It's true, it is made difficult on here to try to elaborate and clarify using reference links. I can see their reasoning, but it is frustrating....

 

As for posting, are you trying to say you only relate personal experiences? Excuse me for assuming, but what you wrote was clearly validating to me. The summary; fell out of love with husband, mistakenly put if off,

no, not 'mistakenly'. I hope my post above clarifies the matter more fully. But I risked threadjacking, in saying too much for fear of making the thread sound 'about me'.

but now both you and your ex are the better for it. That's supporting/encouraging a decision to leave the marriage TM, whether you like to admit it or not.

I was attempting, in as full a way as I could, to illustrate that I could equate with the OP fully. I think it has been confirmed that my contribution has not been far off the mark at all. but as with everyone and anything else, ultimately, the OP of any thread, beset by so many points of view and advice, must make the decision of what they do, for themselves.

I ran a thread some time ago about a personal difficulty I was experiencing in my relationship at the time. many people advised me to end it.

I could see the sense in their advice, and could follow their reasoning.

But I am still with my partner.

So you see, everyone has to go their own way, ultimately.

 

If I am mistaken, I apologize.

I would not say you are mistaken. I would say that this is merely the way you have read matters, and that is your perception, which I cannot and will not contradict. Not because I believe you to be right, but because everyone sees things from a different facet.

And that's ok.

 

My point is simply this; for those who feel that butterfly romance, extreme passion or any other emotion that tells us we're 'in love' be in place at all times during marriage, a large pitfall awaits. Through the course of time, life's unattractive elements are sure to pop up, and those things -the number being almost unlimited- are attraction killers. What about an injury or illness that takes away someone's ability to sexually perform? These things must (and evidently, they can) be fought through to reach a place of deeper understanding. I am amazed and flabbergasted that people TAKE VOWS to do exactly this, then somehow later in life decide that it simply doesn't apply to them anymore?!? Where is the integrity? Where is the conviction behind one's words? Where is strength the of one's promise?

 

I understand your point completely.

I am of the opinion that we have two possible issues at stake:

 

Either marriage has to be classified as an outdated, archaic, redundant ceremony, because the time for such ritual is past (remember that certain aspects of the marriage ceremony have already been altered to fit in with current social taste and convention: The bride may have someone other than her father to give her away, if at all, or the groom may have a female 'best man' should he so wish.... the word 'obey' has been removed, there is no dowry, the couple normally pay for most of it themselves, whereas once it was definitively the bride's father/parents who paid....)

 

OR:

 

People need to be taught more acutely, and over a period of time, that Marriage is one hell of a commitment and that it is being taken far too lightly and flippantly. Pre-marriage workshops should last two months, not two days....

(similarly, I think more parents should have pre-parenting courses...but I digress....)

 

But as I previously said, I don't personally know of any couple who enter into a marriage, considering that it will end prematurely, or that one (or both) of them will be unfaithful.

Who amongst those married, can forget the slight shiver of nerves, when the officiator asks "if there be anyone who knows of any lawful impediment why these two should not be joined together, let him speak now, or forever hold his peace."? couples hate and dread that question!

They are completely serious, committed and sincere at that point,, and absolutely determined to cleave to that person, for as long as they both shall live.

 

The only way to justify it is; what I want, when I want it. Does that sound like a formula for happiness, peacefulness or contentment to you? What of value was ever built using such a foundation? Isn't weakness...weak?

This is perhaps where we differ.

Why is 'falling out of love' weak? Why are tastes and principles that change, weak? What is weak about something that has no guarantees and is in all and every way, impermanent? Why, when we change everything else about ourselves throughout life, is this change perceived as weakness? Why is this natural evolution of sentiments, tastes, values and desires, seen as unacceptable, when a person changes every single day?

This change is not deliberate. It is not voluntary. it is not predictable or foreseeable. It has no definitive time-span, or limitations. And much as we try, it is not something that can be always reversed or ignored.

So why is it weak?

 

TM, I'll conclude this by saying that I don't think you realize the power of your own words. If *all of this* just occurred by happenstance, then there is truly no foundational element for a belief system. Freeforall. Yet, even those who believe that continue to selectively demand justice; as long as it does not interfere with their 'right' to decide on other, 'more personal' issues. Sorry to say that your 'right' to believe is indeed a God given one, made possible because our creator does not force anything on anyone.

I will not argue theology with you, because I am not agnostic, (that is, I am not living in uncertainty of a Godly existence.) Neither am I an atheist (outright denying the existence of a God) I am a non-Theist. That is to say, I really don't care one way or the other, to speculate. It is pure speculation, and cannot be determined for sure, one way or the other. Therefore it is a pointless exercise.

I run my own thinking, and cannot, and will not credit it to anything or anyone else, because it's pointless to ruminate on this.

 

And neither can we, ultimately.

I completely agree.

 

I do appreciate your intellect TM, and your politeness in presenting your viewpoint. No doubt you are a pleasant, well spoken person. Ultimately, this poster will decide for herself and then learn...like the rest of us.

I completely agree, and actually made that clear earlier in my post.

Thank you fo having the perseverance to read this far - if indeed, you have!

[Steadfast]

 

Nothing wrong with a godless viewpoint. it is as legitimately held as any other. I don't believe in God, and that's my right. And I am equally entitled to have a viewpoint.

 

 

 

 

I will not argue theology with you, because I am not agnostic, (that is, I am not living in uncertainty of a Godly existence.) Neither am I an atheist (outright denying the existence of a God) I am a non-Theist.

 

 

Tera...

 

Like this poster and all of us here, I deeply and profoundly wish for you a continued path of enlightenment. I can sense your ability to deeply love and understand. We're all held to certain standards; these things will not evolve away. Cold is cold, hot burns, gravity works, the sun comes up, the sun goes down...

 

Life does not come with a manual! But if it did, how many people would read it?