Not looking to debate my questions... but rather responses to a specific question

[Myowntwofeet]

I haven't posted in a while. We blew up via boiling emotions for about 5 weeks ago and since then it is like the lid came off and we are all dealing with it in such an adult way.

 

I am not looking to hear how bad we are for being in contact. Simple fact - ALL parties are well aware. His W knows we are meeting about once a week, his therapist - her therapist and mine.... we are all here voluntarily - by choice and for the time being - we are all paddling forward but in our own boats.

 

We were at dinner last night and talking about our individual progress in therapy, some of our stumbling blocks and our own relationship.

 

There are things I will not let him sugarcoat and of course things I have to own - we are working on getting through the pain we caused each other ( we did that in spades) and taking baby steps forward. If that means moving apart - that is exactly what it means.... no expectations on any side and that is the truth. If it means opening the door again - that will only happen if he is out of the house, period.

 

Last night we were talking and one of our "agree to disagree's" is that staying was easier (for him) because he does love his wife, doesn't want to disappoint his girls and has serious parent issues ( would rather die than have his mom dissappoint in his choices and has never felt worthy... that is just unraveling and I won't go into details... but serious issues).

 

Regardless,

 

Two things we were friendly debating ..... That moving out, being on his own ( without either woman), paying his own bills, sleeping in his own bed, making decisions, walking through the realizations that some will judge him,others will not but at the end of the day accepting himself and simply learning how to be on his own ( he has never lived alone) is not the same as as he says "being alone".... as he feels he was when the fire was at its highest. He thinks he already found that " independence" that I am referring too.... I believe he cannot find that independence when he is with either one of us.

 

I also believe that is the only way of ever knowing ( for the woman) that he truly did the right thing. We both know he loves the other... and we have both come to accept that ( yes, she has as well)..... and we also both have shared the insecurities in walking through this triangle.

 

I believe if he was truly alone, without either woman... he would either find his way back to the one he could truly commit too or find out neither are the right one and alone or with someone all together different is the right answer.

 

So can you really understand that self independence if you are still physically in the family home, haven't own up to the important people ( parent's, co-workers in his case, etc)?

 

What does it take to really know which road to take? I personally believe time alone, independence and finding yourself is the only answer..... but very interest if others hold the view that many MC's hold and that is "don't leave the house"

Edited July 16, 2010 by Myowntwofeet

[Tayla]

all i can say is that was the longest introduction to wanting only an answer to a question that took five paragraphs to find.

My answer though is: IT takes what it takes.

[Myowntwofeet]

all i can say is that was the longest introduction to wanting only an answer to a question that took five paragraphs to find.

My answer though is: IT takes what it takes.

 

 

TOO TRUE!

 

I felt the need to write a catch up as to what has happened to avoid the "but weren't you two...yada yada..

 

There was drama.... there is none now and I wanted to focus ( poorly perhaps) on the question as we are friendly opposing each.

 

I like your response though.... true in many ways

[jennie-jennie]

I haven't posted in a while. We blew up via boiling emotions for about 5 weeks ago and since then it is like the lid came off and we are all dealing with it in such an adult way.

 

I am not looking to hear how bad we are for being in contact. Simple fact - ALL parties are well aware. His W knows we are meeting about once a week, his therapist - her therapist and mine.... we are all here voluntarily - by choice and for the time being - we are all paddling forward but in our own boats.

 

We were at dinner last night and talking about our individual progress in therapy, some of our stumbling blocks and our own relationship.

 

There are things I will not let him sugarcoat and of course things I have to own - we are working on getting through the pain we caused each other ( we did that in spades) and taking baby steps forward. If that means moving apart - that is exactly what it means.... no expectations on any side and that is the truth. If it means opening the door again - that will only happen if he is out of the house, period.

 

Last night we were talking and one of our "agree to disagree's" is that staying was easier (for him) because he does love his wife, doesn't want to disappoint his girls and has serious parent issues ( would rather die than have his mom dissappoint in his choices and has never felt worthy... that is just unraveling and I won't go into details... but serious issues).

 

Regardless,

 

Two things we were friendly debating ..... That moving out, being on his own ( without either woman), paying his own bills, sleeping in his own bed, making decisions, walking through the realizations that some will judge him,others will not but at the end of the day accepting himself and simply learning how to be on his own ( he has never lived alone) is not the same as as he says "being alone".... as he feels he was when the fire was at its highest. He thinks he already found that " independence" that I am referring too.... I believe he cannot find that independence when he is with either one of us.

 

I also believe that is the only way of ever knowing ( for the woman) that he truly did the right thing. We both know he loves the other... and we have both come to accept that ( yes, she has as well)..... and we also both have shared the insecurities in walking through this triangle.

 

I believe if he was truly alone, without either woman... he would either find his way back to the one he could truly commit too or find out neither are the right one and alone or with someone all together different is the right answer.

 

So can you really understand that self independence if you are still physically in the family home, haven't own up to the important people ( parent's, co-workers in his case, etc)?

 

What does it take to really know which road to take? I personally believe time alone, independence and finding yourself is the only answer..... but very interest if others hold the view that many MC's hold and that is "don't leave the house"

 

Well, "don't leave the house" is a biased answer constructed to preserve the marriage.

[Myowntwofeet]

Well, "don't leave the house" is a biased answer constructed to preserve the marriage.

 

 

Jeannie, I tend to agree with you and while common bases in Marriage Counseling - I seldom agree with it.

 

I am thankful that they are not in MC rather all are currently doing IC and honestly impressed with how we have all come to a healthy handling of the situation.

 

The bottom line - NC wasn't working - it wasn't working for him and it wasn't working for me. He had anger with my decision to email his W in January, I had anger with the reasons that led me to do it and the truth... no one was moving on - we were actually in our own corners ruminating with the same intense emotions.

 

I told him right off the bat - get honest about being in contact or don't bother me and he has right down to handing me his IC's number and saying... go see him for an appt if you wish....call him to confirm he knows...whatever you wish - no strings attached, but just so you know.

 

His IC's take on him telling him we would no longer be in "no contact" was - Ok - you are strong enough to make that decision - and he was supportive of his decision based on continuing to be honest with his W regarding our contact and to continue to not string me or her along for any selfish benefit.

 

I have to admit - it feels good to be dealing with our feelings, and our relationship in an adult manner - but it is going to be a LONG road and no one knows what that will bring...friendship, acceptance, revisiting the relationship, completely moving on....no one can honestly say - but we love each other, so to me.... it's worth the work.

[norajane]

He thinks he already found that " independence" that I am referring too.... I believe he cannot find that independence when he is with either one of us.

 

Maybe he's found as much independence as he wants, or is ready for.

 

And maybe his ideal level of independence does not match your idea of what level and kind of independence he should have.

[Myowntwofeet]

Maybe he's found as much independence as he wants, or is ready for.

 

And maybe his ideal level of independence does not match your idea of what level and kind of independence he should have.

 

You know, I admit I would be quicker to agree with that IF... he wasn't still struggling with two relationships and two women.

[fooled once]

I agree with Nora and he is in 2 relationships with 2 women because both seem to accept it.

 

She is his wife, who he goes home to and things are 'ok'. You are the mistress.

 

He likes it the way it is and seems to have no desire to change it.

 

You can accept it or not.

 

He likes his version of independence because he gets to keep both.

[Myowntwofeet]

I agree with Nora and he is in 2 relationships with 2 women because both seem to accept it.

 

She is his wife, who he goes home to and things are 'ok'. You are the mistress.

 

He likes it the way it is and seems to have no desire to change it.

 

You can accept it or not.

 

He likes his version of independence because he gets to keep both.

 

Well not sure about her, but he sure isn't getting lucky over here:rolleyes:

 

Believe it or not.... we are not in a " affair relationship".... but we valued each other enough to find a more healthy forward.

 

Call us separated..... that is a far more real statement... in fact - I just said to him a week or so ago...... I got the cat, you got so and so ( a mutual friend)

 

And yes, I know most don't believe "ow" are entitled to consider their relationship real.... I always did and always will respect ours as much as anyone else's.

[jwi71]

Farce.

 

How can you possibly say that what he "needs" is time w/o either woman when you have already made it perfectly clear you won't let him do that.

 

The bottom line - NC wasn't working - it wasn't working for him and it wasn't working for me

 

You already know you "can't" stay away.

And he obviously doesn't want you "away".

 

So your whole point about independence is moot - its a farce.

 

He can't achieve it because you won't let him. You already "can't stay away"...

 

You want him to be independent....ok....here's what you do:

 

Go away.

 

You heard me. Leave. NC.

 

Because you are influencing him. Stop it.

 

Tell him what you want then go away. He knows how to find you.

 

You do this, I PROMISE he will choose this independence or not.

He must learn to decide, and choose and live on his own. Independent of you. Of his Wife. Of his family. You, least of all, can help him in this. In fact, the ONLY way to help him is to go away. That first step must come from him...let him work through it ALONE (actually all steps must come from him)

 

Then, finally, he will have to think and choose on his own. You can't hold his hand. You can't guide him. You can't teach him.

 

So, do what's best for EVERYONE, have a goodbye dinner and walk away. One day, he either shows up with D papers in hand...or not.

[Myowntwofeet]

Farce.

 

How can you possibly say that what he "needs" is time w/o either woman when you have already made it perfectly clear you won't let him do that.

 

 

 

You already know you "can't" stay away.

And he obviously doesn't want you "away".

 

So, do what's best for EVERYONE, have a goodbye dinner and walk away. One day, he either shows up with D papers in hand...or not.

 

Do what's best for everyone or do whats best for his W? No offense, I think I get the jest, however as you yourself stated... he doesn't want me to "go away" either. She is aware -fully that we are talking ---I have gone away for 6 months... and yet through that NC.... here we are.

 

That clearly didn't work...but god forbid anyone suggest he step away from his W or step away from both and spend some time on his self. That clearly won't work for the masses or the percentages.

[SidLyon]

Do what's best for everyone or do whats best for his W? No offense, I think I get the jest, however as you yourself stated... he doesn't want me to "go away" either. She is aware -fully that we are talking ---I have gone away for 6 months... and yet through that NC.... here we are.

 

That clearly didn't work...but god forbid anyone suggest he step away from his W or step away from both and spend some time on his self. That clearly won't work for the masses or the percentages.

 

You seem to be suggesting that he take time away from both his wife and you, but you are unwilling to step away from him unless his wife does too. Conversely you are willing to let him step away from you, but only if he steps away from his wife too.

 

You say you are all behaving like adults but is seems like some weird game to me.

 

Frankly it sounds like you are all on a hiding to nowhere. But if you are genuine/sincere I suggest you need to behave like adults and reach an agreement with his wife about what you are both willing to do. Otherwise it's just a farce IMO.

 

Now what was your question again?

[2sunny]

Let the man decide what HE wants. YOU need to decide what you are and aren't willing to put up with. Decide what your boundary is and stick to it. He is obviously doing what he wants, that doesn't mean you need to go along with it.

[bentnotbroken]

"What does it take to really know which road to take? "

 

 

Hopefully one that takes him somewhere to find out what makes it okay for him to treat his wife that way. Maybe a road that will show him it is okay to act like a mature adult. And somewhere that will help him to figure out how to be a better example of a man who can show his children how women should be treated.

[norajane]

Do what's best for everyone or do whats best for his W? No offense, I think I get the jest, however as you yourself stated... he doesn't want me to "go away" either. She is aware -fully that we are talking ---I have gone away for 6 months... and yet through that NC.... here we are.

 

That clearly didn't work...but god forbid anyone suggest he step away from his W or step away from both and spend some time on his self. That clearly won't work for the masses or the percentages.

 

It doesn't matter what we suggest or what works for the masses or the percentages.

 

The reality is, HE is not choosing not to step away from his W, and HE is not choosing to step away from both you and his wife and spend time on his self.

 

He had 6 months of NC with you, and at the end of that, he is STILL choosing to have you both. And both you and his wife are STILL playing along with that and choosing to stay with him.

 

He doesn't HAVE to do anything different to have both of you, which is what he has wanted all along, and which is what he is STILL choosing since he isn't doing anything different.

[cavedweller]

Myowntwofeet,

 

Do you want to be with him?---No problem..Give him one week (7 days) to move out and file for a divorce...Don't play his games anymore..

[jj33]

What NoraJane said. He had NC and he didnt leave.

 

You have your answer you just dont like it.

 

I have to say this is a very troubling situation. Had this not been posted in the OW section it almost sounds as if you are talking about someone who is not a competent adult.

 

"We" dont decide what is best for him. HE does and indeed he is. His feet are firmly planted at HIS house (that he shares with his W).

 

You cant cajole him out of his house. By continuing the dialogue you are simply feeding into his hands and his view of things.

 

This is not a negotiation unless you are happy to keep sharing him.

 

If you arent happy to keep sharing him you walk away - that doesnt benefit his W (this is not a beuaty pageant where you and his wife are the finalists) YOU benefit because you have stopped accepting a situation that you dont want to be in.

 

I appreciate that the outcome you want is for him to "decide" and hopefully decide he wants to be with you.

 

But you cant make him decide and you cant decide for him. Every single woman on this board who has gone down this road has been in a situation that ended in tears. This is not a "group" decision.

 

Hard as it is you need to step back. If you walk again and he doesnt make a change in his life in time, ultimately you will meet someone else.

 

I know its frustrating to hear someone tell you that they love you and to love them and not be able to influence the outcome but its really not yours to influence.

 

And everyone is different but if a man told me he had sufficient independence living in his Ws house I would RUN not walk RUN.

[Spark1111]

fBS here....

 

Well, I too disagree with the MC.

 

Who wants to be anyone's default choice, fercryin'outloud?

 

I think living at home does tend to preserve the marriage, and maybe with total independence from each other, either he or she or both, will decide it isn't worth it or it is.

 

Meanwhile, you are still in a wait and see position until some decision is made.

 

So instead of being in a holding pattern, make sure you are really living your life! Fill it to the brim!

 

What is often not realized in a triangle is that it may be the BS who decides the marriage as it stands is no longer worth it.

 

Or you might decide you no longer want to wait around.

 

I think he should move out and be alone. It often forces clarity of thinking, IMHO.

[torranceshipman]

I haven't posted in a while. We blew up via boiling emotions for about 5 weeks ago and since then it is like the lid came off and we are all dealing with it in such an adult way.

 

I am not looking to hear how bad we are for being in contact. Simple fact - ALL parties are well aware. His W knows we are meeting about once a week, his therapist - her therapist and mine.... we are all here voluntarily - by choice and for the time being - we are all paddling forward but in our own boats.

 

We were at dinner last night and talking about our individual progress in therapy, some of our stumbling blocks and our own relationship.

 

There are things I will not let him sugarcoat and of course things I have to own - we are working on getting through the pain we caused each other ( we did that in spades) and taking baby steps forward. If that means moving apart - that is exactly what it means.... no expectations on any side and that is the truth. If it means opening the door again - that will only happen if he is out of the house, period.

 

Last night we were talking and one of our "agree to disagree's" is that staying was easier (for him) because he does love his wife, doesn't want to disappoint his girls and has serious parent issues ( would rather die than have his mom dissappoint in his choices and has never felt worthy... that is just unraveling and I won't go into details... but serious issues).

 

Regardless,

 

Two things we were friendly debating ..... That moving out, being on his own ( without either woman), paying his own bills, sleeping in his own bed, making decisions, walking through the realizations that some will judge him,others will not but at the end of the day accepting himself and simply learning how to be on his own ( he has never lived alone) is not the same as as he says "being alone".... as he feels he was when the fire was at its highest. He thinks he already found that " independence" that I am referring too.... I believe he cannot find that independence when he is with either one of us.

 

I also believe that is the only way of ever knowing ( for the woman) that he truly did the right thing. We both know he loves the other... and we have both come to accept that ( yes, she has as well)..... and we also both have shared the insecurities in walking through this triangle.

 

I believe if he was truly alone, without either woman... he would either find his way back to the one he could truly commit too or find out neither are the right one and alone or with someone all together different is the right answer.

 

So can you really understand that self independence if you are still physically in the family home, haven't own up to the important people ( parent's, co-workers in his case, etc)?

 

What does it take to really know which road to take? I personally believe time alone, independence and finding yourself is the only answer..... but very interest if others hold the view that many MC's hold and that is "don't leave the house"

 

To me this sounds like 2 women still starry eyed over the MM, totally indulging him in his navel gazing. If this is over then you would have walked away, not stayed so invested in his thoughts, his independence, meeting him for dinner, wondering what actions he will take, thinking about whether he is correct in thinking what he thinks...wondering what road HE should take, paying for therapy so you can talk about him..you are still VERY involved with this guy.

 

If I were you, I'd take my focus OFF him and place it on myself. It does also stand out that the W now has to know he is meeting an OW once a week - is this not killing her? I have to say that this seems like a heck of a lot of needless drama.

 

Also, you sounds like you are speaking about a child, not an adult. He is capable of making choices on his own and sounds like he already has - he says he loves his family and don't want to leave them, and I think you are doing all this rationalizing as an excuse to feel connected the whole situation somehow.

Edited July 17, 2010 by torranceshipman

[norajane]

Well, I too disagree with the MC.

 

MM and his W are not in MC. MC is not telling him to stay at home.

 

I am thankful that they are not in MC rather all are currently doing IC and honestly impressed with how we have all come to a healthy handling of the situation.

 

Whatever else he may be telling his IC, apparently moving out to find his independence isn't high on the list.

[sadintexas]

I agree with you OP. Being alone means being alone. He should take time for himself to reflect on what he really wants without carrying on an R with either woman (if he's so torn).

 

I think it's important for our self esteem and sense of self worth to be able to take care of ourselves. In part, for me, this means being able to live alone (I have young children now live with me post D, but that makes it even more challenging lol). I pay the bills,adhere to a budget I can live with (because there's no one to fall back on figuratively speaking) take care of the house, the kids, the home maintenance (either myself or have it done), the pets, I make all the decisions, etc.

 

The other part is being able to be happy with just myself. Being content in who I am, having fulfilling friendships and activities to partake in, etc,

 

If you find yourself in the position where you HAVE to have a partner to either fulfill you in some way physically, emotionally, financially, whatever, then you're setting yourself up for a co-dependent relationship.

 

Having the freedom to stay in a relationship because you want to and not because you have to is a great feeling. Having the ability to leave a relationship because it's not right for you and KNOWING you can take care of yourself just fine is very liberating.

[lolapalooza]

It doesn't matter what we suggest or what works for the masses or the percentages.

 

The reality is, HE is not choosing not to step away from his W, and HE is not choosing to step away from both you and his wife and spend time on his self.

 

He had 6 months of NC with you, and at the end of that, he is STILL choosing to have you both. And both you and his wife are STILL playing along with that and choosing to stay with him.

 

He doesn't HAVE to do anything different to have both of you, which is what he has wanted all along, and which is what he is STILL choosing since he isn't doing anything different.

I think that's the real point of this thread. 6 months of NC didn't make him choose her, supposedly because of the influence of an idiot therapist and a mean old wife.

 

She thinks that if she can get MM away from mean evil wife, she can manipulate MM to her advantage. She wants us to validate her idea.

 

Sounds good if the MM didn't have free will, but he does. And he's chosen to stay home. People never do everything the therapist says to do; blaming the therapist for MM staying home is rather ridiculous.

[Myowntwofeet]

I think that's the real point of this thread. 6 months of NC didn't make him choose her, supposedly because of the influence of an idiot therapist and a mean old wife.

 

She thinks that if she can get MM away from mean evil wife, she can manipulate MM to her advantage. She wants us to validate her idea.

 

Sounds good if the MM didn't have free will, but he does. And he's chosen to stay home. People never do everything the therapist says to do; blaming the therapist for MM staying home is rather ridiculous.

 

 

This is the second time I have really realized that opinions in cyber world are often just the continuous views of the person and can't possibly be based on the actual.

 

Truth, I can't possibly share all with you guys...so you take words, twist them to suit your opinions/views and throw a few kicks into the mix.

 

I thought I was pretty honest, that I simply wanted to discuss the question of being on your own verses being on "your own".

 

I am actually taking care of myself, enjoy myself for the first time in a long time without MM and without the damaging NC that so many think is necessary to inflict.

 

You can sit and bash me and say he hasn't picked me..... etc... but in truth - he hasn't fully committed to either - that is the truth so please spare me that I have "the answer", I don't and neither does his W.

 

We are friends.. if a friend was going through this... I would say "Go be alone!"... you can say I wouldn't ...and I don't care if you believe me - it's the truth.

 

We not dealing with a child here, but we are dealing with someone who IS working hard in IC, who IS trying to get his feet under himself and the post was simply a question regarding that.

 

I appreciate those that answered the question. For now - I am here and I will be here as long as I can honestly keep a healthy balance, support a person I LOVE and love myself above that.

 

We bring different views to the table - that goes both ways and I appreciate the tremendous growth we have done in the last 6 weeks.

 

Where will that lead? I don't know but apparently it was important enough to both of us to take that walk.

 

I don't sugar coat things for him, I am not there kissing his cuts and bruises - I am there asking him to be who I believe he can be. A strong man who makes the choices that are best for him and realizes that doing for the kids, the wife, the parents while comfortable and easy is not being his best.

 

I am ok. I know 100% that his wife is aware we get together and chat, that we are emailing and we are talking. NO secrets to anyone anymore and that was a huge stumbling block for me. If anyone is not ok with the current situation they are in control of thier choices.

 

I don't recall coming here whining that I choose this and I am not happy.

 

I am much happier with the current choice than I ever was with the NC and yes- I will support him through IC - because I do believe whatever his choice is - with hard work and support - it will be the best for all, regardless of whether that is or isn't me. No beauty pageant here believe it or not....simply 3 people who love each other, trying our best to do the best for all free of secrets and lies.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Myowntwofeet

[Myowntwofeet]

I think that's the real point of this thread. 6 months of NC didn't make him choose her, supposedly because of the influence of an idiot therapist and a mean old wife.

 

She thinks that if she can get MM away from mean evil wife, she can manipulate MM to her advantage. She wants us to validate her idea.

 

Sounds good if the MM didn't have free will, but he does. And he's chosen to stay home. People never do everything the therapist says to do; blaming the therapist for MM staying home is rather ridiculous.

 

I have read some of your posts, to be honest - I would prefer you choose to ignore mine.

 

I do not think his wife is EVIL and to be honest - I find it offensive beyond belief.

 

Please keep your extremely condescending and rather childish opinions to yourself.

 

As not ONE statement you made reflects what I said and questions if you read or just blanket all with the same drivel.

[Ellin]

This is the second time I have really realized that opinions in cyber world are often just the continuous views of the person and can't possibly be based on the actual.

 

Truth, I can't possibly share all with you guys...so you take words, twist them to suit your opinions/views and throw a few kicks into the mix.

 

I thought I was pretty honest, that I simply wanted to discuss the question of being on your own verses being on "your own".

 

I am actually taking care of myself, enjoy myself for the first time in a long time without MM and without the damaging NC that so many think is necessary to inflict.

 

You can sit and bash me and say he hasn't picked me..... etc... but in truth - he hasn't fully committed to either - that is the truth so please spare me that I have "the answer", I don't and neither does his W.

 

We are friends.. if a friend was going through this... I would say "Go be alone!"... you can say I wouldn't ...and I don't care if you believe me - it's the truth.

 

We not dealing with a child here, but we are dealing with someone who IS working hard in IC, who IS trying to get his feet under himself and the post was simply a question regarding that.

 

I appreciate those that answered the question. For now - I am here and I will be here as long as I can honestly keep a healthy balance, support a person I LOVE and love myself above that.

 

We bring different views to the table - that goes both ways and I appreciate the tremendous growth we have done in the last 6 weeks.

 

Where will that lead? I don't know but apparently it was important enough to both of us to take that walk.

 

I don't sugar coat things for him, I am not there kissing his cuts and bruises - I am there asking him to be who I believe he can be. A strong man who makes the choices that are best for him and realizes that doing for the kids, the wife, the parents while comfortable and easy is not being his best.

 

I am ok. I know 100% that his wife is aware we get together and chat, that we are emailing and we are talking. NO secrets to anyone anymore and that was a huge stumbling block for me. If anyone is not ok with the current situation they are in control of thier choices.

 

I don't recall coming here whining that I choose this and I am not happy.

 

I am much happier with the current choice than I ever was with the NC and yes- I will support him through IC - because I do believe whatever his choice is - with hard work and support - it will be the best for all, regardless of whether that is or isn't me. No beauty pageant here believe it or not....simply 3 people who love each other, trying our best to do the best for all free of secrets and lies.

 

Hi, Myowntwofeet.

 

I just wanted to say that I fully understand what you're saying and the best thing you can do is what you feel is right for you.

 

If NC didn't do you any good, then it didn't. It's your life and your feelings. You do what you're ready to do. You seem to be understanding yourself well and trying to move forward, which is good.

 

Take care.