Not looking to debate my questions... but rather responses to a specific question

[NoIDidn't]

The assumption that the BW used the kids against the MM is what turned this thread into a fest on the role of children in a family.

 

I see nothing wrong with a BW telling her kids. Nothing at all, especially when they are old enough to know what it takes to have an affair and see the way it affected their family.

 

But the OW basically seeming to say to the BW that she was wrong to tell her own children who were affected by their father's deceit smacks of self-serving and not at all in the interest of those children either. The OW doesn't want the kids to know the role she played in the destruction of their family life. So the OW takes telling the kids as an affront to her potential R with them, but makes it about the MM somehow. At least this is my thought on it. Because if the kids hate her already, there is practically no chance in Hell that the MM is going to leave their mother for this particular OW.

[Myowntwofeet]

No offense Jennie, but they may see you having a secret relationship with a man who never commits full-time to you, who has a wife and family kept in the dark about the realtionship.

 

I am glad you are truthful, though.

 

But his children? What would his children think of their father to discover his secret relationship with a woman not their mother?

 

Because this happened very close to my extended family, and two things happened.

 

The wife was relevated to cannonhood before she died, and she stays there today.

 

The OW is despised as the trashy intoloper, and always will be.

 

The MM? Tolerated, but still cared for by his adult children. But respected? No, absolutely not. He will NEVER enjoy the same respect and admiration from his family, friends and children as he had pre-long-term affair DDAY.

 

And in all of that, the OW really sort of tarnished her halo. He likes her enough, there is still contact, but from what it had been? Uh uh. So, on some leve, he sort of scratches his head and blames her? Maybe a little?

 

That is interesting spark, and brings to light the fundamental differences I have with people, in general.

 

Why do they see the OW as the trash?

 

Why do they judge their parent for a relationship he failed at with another person, other than themselves?

 

This IS my big big issue. Why is it that people think they have the right ( family, brother, sisters, daughters, co-workers) on and on.... to actually judge someone by their relationship with others?

 

I won't have that. The people in my life love me for me, they really do and honestly, I think it is the old mentality that keeps SO MANY stuck.

 

I want the children in my life to live, to make mistakes and to own them as a human - I do NOT want them to feel judged, less than or make them believe they have to live up to some pre-conceived idea I created.

 

Who am I to tell someone what they shouldn't and shouldn't do.... and that goes for the people/family in my life I love.

 

To me, living your best means being open to the human fact that people make mistakes, that people grow and at times grow apart. That is LIFE.

 

Some will say a WS cheats on his family - I can only speak for mine. He loves his daughters, they did not suffer or have scheduled altered because of our affair and they did not feel unloved while he was in his affair - they simply didn't.

 

The only one that can "judge" is his/her W/H and the truth ... enforcing their thoughts, feeling or suggesting others judge for actions against them is malicious and only to feed the "poor me" self that we all have. It is the need to hear " ah, you poor thing...that's ok Mom/Dad... I love you".

[Snowflower]

What I hear in the "tone" of a lot BS's on LS and in my life, the kids get used as tools to take sides against that horrible, corrupted, not worthy of anything WS. I also just heard from somewhere (I think my daughter) concerning a sitch of this nature that BSO (betrayed significant other), that they did not want the AP around their kids....

 

I understand you're speaking from your experience but I think this is a common stereotype regarding the BS.

 

Also, there seems to be the assumption that the children involved are all innocent 5 years olds who should be shielded from the reality. If the children are little like that, I agree. But what about older teenagers or young adults? Should they be protected from the harsh truth about their parents, as well? More likely, they will intuit themselves!

 

I'm not advocating telling a child of any age the gory details about the affair, but I don't advocate lying to them either.

 

 

My mother and father kept me protected from their mess, certainly they did not do everything the right way (no parent is going to), although they did the best they could for me. I was taught not to be up in other peoples business, and that has served me greatly throughout the years.

 

That's good that your parents were able to do that.

[bentnotbroken]

What I hear in the "tone" of a lot BS's on LS and in my life, the kids get used as tools to take sides against that horrible, corrupted, not worthy of anything WS. I also just heard from somewhere (I think my daughter) concerning a sitch of this nature that BSO (betrayed significant other), that they did not want the AP around their kids....

 

 

"BNB says.....I can say honestly, this is me"

 

 

My mother and father kept me protected from their mess, certainly they did not do everything the right way (no parent is going to), although they did the best they could for me. I was taught not to be up in other peoples business, and that has served me greatly throughout the years.

 

BNB says...I did protect my kids from the abuse that was between me and Mr. Messy. He didn't protect them from his last affair. He was careless and was seen with the ow by the oldest and he used the youngest to cover some of his meetings with ow. We both messed up.

 

 

Concerning my kids, I did not run their fathers down...at the first opportunity their fathers ran me down.

 

BNB says....During my most angry moments, I probably did say some pretty nasty stuff about him, some I regret, some I don't. But cheating so publically was running me, his children, his God and his family down with every action to keep the affair(s) going.

 

 

 

I encouraged a R with their fathers even though they weren't seeing their kids and flat out refused to pay any child support...I didn't care about the money (though do have to say that spoke volumns). No matter how bad the parent is, they are still the kids parent.

 

BNB says...on this we absolutely agree. And I told them that there was a certain level of respect afforded to all God's creatures...that included their father. But at no point does that include any type of relationship with the ow(s).

 

ExDM and his exW let the kids in all their business, even the sex life:sick:. Those kids are really messed up because they were privy to adult matters when it didn't concern them. They are up in everybodies business and can be extremely rude at times. They are unable to carry themselves well at all...it's sad and now they have kids that are worse than them.

 

 

BNB says.....while the children weren't involved in our sex lives, sex was an open, honest conversation that we had regularly. That may have included examples of the mistakes we made in our teen years with sex and protection.

 

I am curious though, if an A is catagorized as more than sex by AP, why is it reduced to only a sex life when the BS speaks of it with there children? I mean if the WS speaks of it trying to explain to the children about their "new relationship" why isn't it reduced to just sex? But if it is spoken of by the BS, they are discussing the sex life of one of the parents, not the "new relationship"? Seems kind of funky to me.

 

 

 

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[Myowntwofeet]

The assumption that the BW used the kids against the MM is what turned this thread into a fest on the role of children in a family.

 

I see nothing wrong with a BW telling her kids. Nothing at all, especially when they are old enough to know what it takes to have an affair and see the way it affected their family.

 

But the OW basically seeming to say to the BW that she was wrong to tell her own children who were affected by their father's deceit smacks of self-serving and not at all in the interest of those children either. The OW doesn't want the kids to know the role she played in the destruction of their family life. So the OW takes telling the kids as an affront to her potential R with them, but makes it about the MM somehow. At least this is my thought on it. Because if the kids hate her already, there is practically no chance in Hell that the MM is going to leave their mother for this particular OW.

 

I guess those that are self serving would see that.

 

I actually feel incredibly sorry for their girls. I clearly remember the challenges I had in my teens, first loves- first relationships, picking universities, the changing dynamics of your childhood friends.

 

They do not need to be the band-aid that holds a marriage together... sorry, NID... they don't.

 

But hey..... let's make sure it is as difficult for him to leave me as humanely possible... because feels so much better going to bed at night:rolleyes:

 

That is a lesson I would love to teach my children. Your Mom/Dad loved another woman and had an affair for over a year.... he went out of our marriage for over 10 years.... "bad man".... But hey... it's ok, I love him.... so I will put up with it.... BUT, don't you do that.

 

Really..... a much better option.

[Owl]

That is interesting spark, and brings to light the fundamental differences I have with people, in general.

 

Why do they see the OW as the trash?

 

Because the OW/OM was an active participant in the destruction of their parent's marriage, and ultimately participated in the potential destruction of their family and home life as they know it.

 

Why do they judge their parent for a relationship he failed at with another person, other than themselves?

 

Because they use their parent's relationships as a role model for their own. Because they know that these relationships reflect the character of the people who participate in them. They reflect the values and morals of their parents...and impact the child's values and morals as a result.

 

This IS my big big issue. Why is it that people think they have the right ( family, brother, sisters, daughters, co-workers) on and on.... to actually judge someone by their relationship with others?

 

Because these ACTIONS reflect the true morals and true values that are reflected in how the treat other people. They judge because they're aware that in order to establish these relationships, lies were told, deceptions pulled off, and that they laid aside the impacts to the BS and the family impacted in order to conduct these relationships...usually in direct conflict with the "public" values and morals that these people profressed to have prior to (and often during) the affair.

[Myowntwofeet]

I'm not advocating telling a child of any age the gory details about the affair, but I don't advocate lying to them either.

 

 

Very important... however it is already lost as it is assumed I said don't tell them anything.

 

I agree Snowflower.... I never said don't tell them there were issues, there is no need for the details...and sadly, they got almost all.

[jennie-jennie]

No offense Jennie, but they may see you having a secret relationship with a man who never commits full-time to you, who has a wife and family kept in the dark about the realtionship.

 

I am glad you are truthful, though.

 

But his children? What would his children think of their father to discover his secret relationship with a woman not their mother?

 

Because this happened very close to my extended family, and two things happened.

 

The wife was relevated to cannonhood before she died, and she stays there today.

 

The OW is despised as the trashy intoloper, and always will be.

 

The MM? Tolerated, but still cared for by his adult children. But respected? No, absolutely not. He will NEVER enjoy the same respect and admiration from his family, friends and children as he had pre-long-term affair DDAY.

 

And in all of that, the OW really sort of tarnished her halo. He likes her enough, there is still contact, but from what it had been? Uh uh. So, on some leve, he sort of scratches his head and blames her? Maybe a little?

 

I believe the problem is when you let the kids believe you as a parent are indeed Superman or Superwoman. If the kids understand that adults too are human beings who make mistakes and try to live their lives as best they can, then the fall is not that great on Dday.

[bentnotbroken]

That is interesting spark, and brings to light the fundamental differences I have with people, in general.

 

Why do they see the OW as the trash?

 

Why do they judge their parent for a relationship he failed at with another person, other than themselves?

 

This IS my big big issue. Why is it that people think they have the right ( family, brother, sisters, daughters, co-workers) on and on.... to actually judge someone by their relationship with others?

 

I won't have that. The people in my life love me for me, they really do and honestly, I think it is the old mentality that keeps SO MANY stuck.

 

I want the children in my life to live, to make mistakes and to own them as a human - I do NOT want them to feel judged, less than or make them believe they have to live up to some pre-conceived idea I created.

 

Who am I to tell someone what they shouldn't and shouldn't do.... and that goes for the people/family in my life I love.

 

To me, living your best means being open to the human fact that people make mistakes, that people grow and at times grow apart. That is LIFE.

 

Some will say a WS cheats on his family - I can only speak for mine. He loves his daughters, they did not suffer or have scheduled altered because of our affair and they did not feel unloved while he was in his affair - they simply didn't.

 

The only one that can "judge" is his/her W/H and the truth ... enforcing their thoughts, feeling or suggesting others judge for actions against them is malicious and only to feed the "poor me" self that we all have. It is the need to hear " ah, you poor thing...that's ok Mom/Dad... I love you".

 

 

Then that must be the difference in reverence for the family as a unit. The actions of all affect all. Saying you are wrong and I don't have to support it has absolutely nothing to do with loving that person. If it did, your assertion of loving a lying man would be moot. Since a child, sibling, parent can love someone and still call them on their crap is a testiment to love does indeed hold a high prirority in the family dynamic.

 

My kids may turn into the worse criminals the world has every known(not without me azz whipping somebody)but at no point would that disappointment stop me from loving them. Just as the relatives I have who have cheated....love them...tell them they are wrong....two separate courses of action.

[jennie-jennie]

As for his children. imo, and only imo - It is a very fine line between honest with your children and making them a part of the MARRIAGE.

 

Your children are an integeral part of the family, they should not be held accountable, involved in or used to make the marriage managable.

 

Saying you are going through difficulties, is one thing, giving details to teenagers who are JUST going into their own first relationships is another, again imo.

 

It also scares me when poeple involve them to the extent they do. They need to know they are loved by MOM, by DAD and that that is not dependent on the MARRIAGE. It happens so often, divorce happens and children spend years thinking it was because they weren't loved enough by one of the parents.

 

Personally, how pathetic to put that on any child ( and yes, that gets me heated). Including your children in the family is very different than inviting them into your bedroom.

 

I actually think it is the insecurity of one or the other and is used deep down as a " see, that'll teach you"....Call it whatever you want... I will never agree with it.

 

Very well said.

[Myowntwofeet]

Because the OW/OM was an active participant in the destruction of their parent's marriage, and ultimately participated in the potential destruction of their family and home life as they know it.

 

 

 

Because they use their parent's relationships as a role model for their own. Because they know that these relationships reflect the character of the people who participate in them. They reflect the values and morals of their parents...and impact the child's values and morals as a result.

 

 

 

Because these ACTIONS reflect the true morals and true values that are reflected in how the treat other people. They judge because they're aware that in order to establish these relationships, lies were told, deceptions pulled off, and that they laid aside the impacts to the BS and the family impacted in order to conduct these relationships...usually in direct conflict with the "public" values and morals that these people profressed to have prior to (and often during) the affair.

 

And the actions to stay? What does that teach them OWL?

 

(BTW, this is not in reference to my MM at this point...simple conversation/debate on fundamental differences)

 

What does that teach 2 young women? That the appearance of marriage, the picture is worth more than self respect. Yes, they lied... and again I am reaching to the long term affairs or multiple A's.... the BS also somehow believed they were not worth more.

 

I ask my MM this just recently.... it was a lightbulb moment and one that he hasn't really answered.

 

 

Do you really want your children to put everyone first?

 

Do you want your children to stay in a so-so marriage because it is "publicly accepted"?

 

Do you want your kids ( right or wrong) to meet someone, fall in love and deny themselves that? Furthermore denying their mate to find the same?

 

Is the appearance more important than really being honest and saying... I love you, but my heart is with another.

 

Do you want them to hide who they are for almost 25 years? He did, in very important areas.

[bentnotbroken]

I guess those that are self serving would see that.

 

I actually feel incredibly sorry for their girls. I clearly remember the challenges I had in my teens, first loves- first relationships, picking universities, the changing dynamics of your childhood friends.

 

They do not need to be the band-aid that holds a marriage together... sorry, NID... they don't.

 

But hey..... let's make sure it is as difficult for him to leave me as humanely possible... because feels so much better going to bed at night:rolleyes:

 

That is a lesson I would love to teach my children. Your Mom/Dad loved another woman and had an affair for over a year.... he went out of our marriage for over 10 years.... "bad man".... But hey... it's ok, I love him.... so I will put up with it.... BUT, don't you do that.

 

Really..... a much better option.

 

It appears you can't separate loving a parent, spending time with a parent to the same as respecting a parent. It also appears you equate falling out of love and divorcing with lying and hiding a relationship instead of walking away. It just seems weird that you would put that on the same level as him accepting responsibility of telling the truth when you know you don't want to be with someone.

[Snowflower]

Very important... however it is already lost as it is assumed I said don't tell them anything.

 

I agree Snowflower.... I never said don't tell them there were issues, there is no need for the details...and sadly, they got almost all.

 

Okay, so how did the MM's kids find out about the affair?

 

(I apologize if you already explained this in one of your posts-it's just a long read)

[Myowntwofeet]

Okay, so how did the MM's kids find out about the affair?

 

(I apologize if you already explained this in one of your posts-it's just a long read)

 

The day after DDay.... she sat them down and told them all... including somethings I am still in shock that she shared.

 

He came home to a 16 year old at the curb screaming ' I hate you and you ruined my life'

[NoIDidn't]

I guess those that are self serving would see that.

 

I actually feel incredibly sorry for their girls. I clearly remember the challenges I had in my teens, first loves- first relationships, picking universities, the changing dynamics of your childhood friends.

 

They do not need to be the band-aid that holds a marriage together... sorry, NID... they don't.

 

But hey..... let's make sure it is as difficult for him to leave me as humanely possible... because feels so much better going to bed at night:rolleyes:

 

That is a lesson I would love to teach my children. Your Mom/Dad loved another woman and had an affair for over a year.... he went out of our marriage for over 10 years.... "bad man".... But hey... it's ok, I love him.... so I will put up with it.... BUT, don't you do that.

 

Really..... a much better option.

 

I really fail to understand the point you are making here. Are you being facetious? Because that's all I can take from this post.

 

I didn't call you self-serving, so I don't appreciate the snarky comment that "those that are self-serving would see that".

 

I get that you remember the challenges that you had as a teen. Do you think your challenges would have been made easier by your father having an affair during it, whether you knew about it or not?

 

The dynamics in that family changed because of this affair. At their ages, they deserved the truth, and their mother gave it to them. The amount of lying and abandonment that goes into cheating on their mother most definitely affected them. Feeling that he "ruined their lives" probably runs pretty deep and NOT because their mother told them, but because of what he DID. And that was going on whether they were told or not.

 

Interesting that the judgment is on her for telling, and not on him for doing the things told. That's why its self-serving, IMO, for the OW to even pass judgment if she's going to hold the actually guilty party innocent.

[Snowflower]

MOTF, I see two different issues emerging in your thread...and I want to be able to address the right one in my responses. Since it's your thread, please let posters know which issue you are trying to focus on:

 

1. Should children be used as a way to continue the marriage between the WS and the BS? (poorly worded, but I think you get the jist)

 

-or-

 

2. What should the children be told about the affair their parent(s) is involved in?

 

Thanks!

[2sure]

Some will say a WS cheats on his family - I can only speak for mine. He loves his daughters, they did not suffer or have scheduled altered because of our affair and they did not feel unloved while he was in his affair - they simply didn't.

 

I dont usually take personal issue with anyone else's relationship types or perspectives or values. Ive made many mistakes and am here to learn not judge, and maybe help if I'm asked.

 

But that statement above - to me - is grossly inaccurate , naive, and I honestly think I have to say something.

 

Infidelity, in many many cases is ABUSE. It isnt the secret relationship, it isnt the sex, its the complete and utter betrayal and emotional turmoil, false promises, fabricated accusations, the creation of self doubt, the depression, the confusion - all of those things are REAL CONSEQUENCES of infidelity. They affect an entire family. make no mistake.

Many many BS could put infidelity behind them much easier if it did not affect thier children as much as themselves. Period.

 

To say a man that cheats on his wife does not affect his relationship with his children is like saying the children of a man who beats their mother should still love and respect him.

 

Wake Up.

[Snowflower]

The dynamics in that family changed because of this affair. At their ages, they deserved the truth, and their mother gave it to them. The amount of lying and abandonment that goes into cheating on their mother most definitely affected them. Feeling that he "ruined their lives" probably runs pretty deep and NOT because their mother told them, but because of what he DID. And that was going on whether they were told or not.

 

Interesting that the judgment is on her for telling, and not on him for doing the things told. That's why its self-serving, IMO, for the OW to even pass judgment if she's going to hold the actually guilty party innocent.

 

 

Mmmm yes, that's it right there, NID. Now the BS is blamed for telling the truth about the situation? How about the MM own up to his own actions?

What should the BS have said? "Oh your Dad has found true love and while I don't know what this means for our family, we should be happy for him and do everything that we can to make his transition to his new life easier for him."

[Snowflower]

The day after DDay.... she sat them down and told them all... including somethings I am still in shock that she shared.

 

He came home to a 16 year old at the curb screaming ' I hate you and you ruined my life'

 

That is so sad for that teenager. As a mother of teens myself, my heart goes out to that girl.

 

But, it was really the MM's actions and decisions and not the telling by the BW, that did the damage.

[jennie-jennie]

That is a lesson I would love to teach my children. Your Mom/Dad loved another woman and had an affair for over a year.... he went out of our marriage for over 10 years.... "bad man".... But hey... it's ok, I love him.... so I will put up with it.... BUT, don't you do that.

 

Really..... a much better option.

 

See this is exactly what I think. By "protecting his children" through staying in the marriage although in an extramarital relationship, I believe my MM is teaching his children to become WS, BS and OW/OM.

[NoIDidn't]

I dont usually take personal issue with anyone else's relationship types or perspectives or values. Ive made many mistakes and am here to learn not judge, and maybe help if I'm asked.

 

But that statement above - to me - is grossly inaccurate , naive, and I honestly think I have to say something.

 

Infidelity, in many many cases is ABUSE. It isnt the secret relationship, it isnt the sex, its the complete and utter betrayal and emotional turmoil, false promises, fabricated accusations, the creation of self doubt, the depression, the confusion - all of those things are REAL CONSEQUENCES of infidelity. They affect an entire family. make no mistake.

Many many BS could put infidelity behind them much easier if it did not affect thier children as much as themselves. Period.

 

To say a man that cheats on his wife does not affect his relationship with his children is like saying the children of a man who beats their mother should still love and respect him.

 

Wake Up.

 

Agreed.

 

My father's serial cheating very much affected me AND my R with him. It was like he felt sex was more important than a R with his daughter. And it probably was, for many, many years.

 

Its a blindspot in the hearts and minds of the OPs when they deny the effects on the children - inside and outside of the family.

 

And the same OPs usually report having had crappy Rs with their own parents, but somehow think other children won't be as affected as they were in similar situations.

 

(Generally speaking, I have never seen MOTF speak about her R with her parents or her childhood, so this is not referencing her.)

[Myowntwofeet]

 

To say a man that cheats on his wife does not affect his relationship with his children is like saying the children of a man who beats their mother should still love and respect him.

 

Wake Up.

 

We can agree to disagree here... especially considering you used this as an example.

 

Not only do they more often than not continue to love/respect and actually want and need both back.... they OFTEN go on to the exact same relationship.

[bentnotbroken]

Mmmm yes, that's it right there, NID. Now the BS is blamed for telling the truth about the situation? How about the MM own up to his own actions?

 

What should the BS have said? "Oh your Dad has found true love and while I don't know what this means for our family, we should be happy for him and do everything that we can to make his transition to his new life easier for him."

 

 

For me...not only would that have been a lie(as since proven by the fact they aren't together)I would have rather set my own azz on fire while wearing gasoline drawers.

[NoIDidn't]

We can agree to disagree here... especially considering you used this as an example.

 

Not only do they more often than not continue to love/respect and actually want and need both back.... they OFTEN go on to the exact same relationship.

 

See this is exactly what I think. By "protecting his children" through staying in the marriage although in an extramarital relationship, I believe my MM is teaching his children to become WS, BS and OW/OM.

 

 

I see this as saying the dad basically shouldn't be in the affair as it would avoid both scenarios, no?

[bentnotbroken]

We can agree to disagree here... especially considering you used this as an example.

 

Not only do they more often than not continue to love/respect and actually want and need both back.... they OFTEN go on to the exact same relationship.

 

 

My children attended therapy with me and their father. The counselor told all of us that we would have to develop new relationships because the ones that we thought we knew had been changed. Some changes for the better and some for the worst. We needed to get to know each other and our feelings about all that had occured. There is no exact same relationship when the people have changed due to the circumstances. That isn't to say that a healthy relationship cannot and should not develope, but the existing relationship can not remain the same. The do more often than not continue to love both parents...but respect and trust has to be regained...earned by the party that the children are having the most agnst with. In OWoman's case, this would be with the the ex wife of her husband. She is the one that has added more strain to the children. In most cases of cheating, it is the WS that has that job.