Not looking to debate my questions... but rather responses to a specific question

[jennie-jennie]

Mmmm yes, that's it right there, NID. Now the BS is blamed for telling the truth about the situation? How about the MM own up to his own actions?

What should the BS have said? "Oh your Dad has found true love and while I don't know what this means for our family, we should be happy for him and do everything that we can to make his transition to his new life easier for him."

 

Perhaps the WS should be the one telling the children after Dday, or even better both parents together when things have calmed down. Appropriate information according to their age level of course.

[Spark1111]

Well, you're of course welcome to your opinion. In my case...there was no way to "hide" it from the kids...on d-day, when confronted, he purchased my wife tickets to fly to live with him. She initially made the choice to go. I told her that it was her choice...and she would be the one to discuss/explain to the kids as need be. When they got home from school that day, I went for a 5 mile walk to give her the time to do so, in her own words without me coloring the situation.

 

This is exactly what I did. They initiated a sit-down with him. I did not steer, nor use, nor dictate what was said. I was not there, either, and did not ask.

 

My kids weren't "used" for anything. They were old enough to hear from her what was going on, and make their own decisions on their interactions with her and with him (if it had gone that far).

 

My children too. This is good parenting, IMO. I did not use, nor influence, nor manipuate anyone for my own selfish purposes.

 

Hell, I told him to go get her (OW).

 

I told my adult children that if this is the woman your father decides to spend his life with, I expected all of you to treat her with respect.

 

Doubt he told her any of this. But it is the truth in my situation. I knew they have only one father, and despite his treatment of me, I WOULD NOT LET THAT BE AN ISSUE IN THEIR RELATIONSHIP with their father.

 

Nor did I run my wife down to my kids. On the contrary...I refused to allow THEM to be disrespectful of her, regardless of what she was doing at the time.

 

Same here, Owl. I encouraged compassion and understanding.

 

But I also didn't encourage them to accept her actions when clearly these actions were against every value that WE had taught them.

 

"Love the person, hate the action".

 

This is probably why our family was able to forgive each other and recover as well as we did, in the long run.

 

I agree. At the expense of hiding my own emotional pain, I still encouraged them to aspire to the best relationship they could with their father despite our marital uncertainty.

[jennie-jennie]

I see this as saying the dad basically shouldn't be in the affair as it would avoid both scenarios' date=' no?[/quote']

 

I have asked my MM for 5 years now to make a decision one way or the other, so yes. It is too bad that he doesn't feel bad enough about lying to his wife that he does something about it. Either end the affair or the marriage. I never expected to be the OW. I thought he would choose.

[Owl]

And the actions to stay? What does that teach them OWL?

 

(BTW, this is not in reference to my MM at this point...simple conversation/debate on fundamental differences)

 

No problem...the conversation/debate works for me. This isn't personal for me, nor is it meant to be any kind of personal judgement against you...fair enough?

 

What does that teach 2 young women? That the appearance of marriage, the picture is worth more than self respect. Yes, they lied... and again I am reaching to the long term affairs or multiple A's.... the BS also somehow believed they were not worth more.

 

Nope. This should teach young women (and young men for that matter) to be very careful about choosing their partners. It should teach them to respect their marital oaths (and not make or take them lightly). It should also teach them to safeguard their marriage by learning how to maintain it, and protect it by learning good emotional boundaries to prevent others from 'intruding on it'.

 

I ask my MM this just recently.... it was a lightbulb moment and one that he hasn't really answered.

Do you really want your children to put everyone first?

 

Nope. I want my kids to learn to make good decisions in everything that they do. I want them to develop good values and morals, and live by them. I do want them to be aware of how their actions impact and affect others, in EVERYTHING that they do. I want them to be RESPONSIBLE for how their choices impact others...just as I am.

 

Do you want your children to stay in a so-so marriage because it is "publicly accepted"?

 

Nope. I want my kids to stay in a marriage with a person that they love and respect...and who loves and respects them.

 

I don't expect them to stay in a marriage that doesn't fit this.

 

I DO expect them to 'safeguard' their marriage as I'd mentioned earlier. I do want my kids to know how to maintain a strong marriage. I don't want them to stay in a 'failed' marriage...I would expect them to end that marriage...but I would NOT want them to end that marriage because they found someone to replace their spouse.

 

Do you want your kids ( right or wrong) to meet someone, fall in love and deny themselves that? Furthermore denying their mate to find the same?

 

I want my kids to fall in love...and maintain that loving relationship...with their spouse.

 

If that love or relationship fails...I would want them to end the relationship.

 

I would NOT want my kids to allow ANY other person into their marriage, into their hearts when they're still married to their spouse. See what I said earlier...if the marriage is broken, fix it or end it. Do NOT cheat. Honor or end your commitment, but do NOT violate it.

 

Is the appearance more important than really being honest and saying... I love you, but my heart is with another.

 

Appearances have NOTHING to do with anything that I've discussed. I don't care about appearances.

 

I expect them to give their heart to their spouse, and to protect that gift to the best of their ability. If the relationship fails...end it because the relationship fails...and don't pursue someone else until you're FREE to do so.

 

Do you want them to hide who they are for almost 25 years? He did, in very important areas.

 

Wouldn't you think that this would be a hugely contributing factor as to why his marriage failed to begin with? Because he was NEVER honest about who he was, what he wanted, etc..... How could his wife have ever POSSIBLY met his needs if she was never 'himself' with her????

 

Interesting side note...my kids are all adults now. And we've actually discussed this stuff a good bit, given the issues my wife and I had when they were young adults.

 

They'd read my response here and nod their heads...because this is exactly what they've been hearing from both my wife and I for years.

[NoIDidn't]

Perhaps the WS should be the one telling the children after Dday, or even better both parents together when things have calmed down. Appropriate information according to their age level of course.

 

I can't disagree with this.

[xxoo]

I have asked my MM for 5 years now to make a decision one way or the other, so yes. It is too bad that he doesn't feel bad enough about lying to his wife that he does something about it. Either end the affair or the marriage. I never expected to be the OW. I thought he would choose.

 

You choose to be the OW!

 

I don't say that with venom. I say that to remind you of your choice and your power!

[Spark1111]

And the actions to stay? What does that teach them OWL?

 

 

 

(BTW, this is not in reference to my MM at this point...simple conversation/debate on fundamental differences)

 

What does that teach 2 young women? That the appearance of marriage, the picture is worth more than self respect. Yes, they lied... and again I am reaching to the long term affairs or multiple A's.... the BS also somehow believed they were not worth more.

 

I ask my MM this just recently.... it was a lightbulb moment and one that he hasn't really answered.

 

 

Do you really want your children to put everyone first?

 

No, but I do expect them to honor their commitments. If the marriage is broke, fix it. If it can't be fixed, end it, before having a secret affair!

 

Do you want your children to stay in a so-so marriage because it is "publicly accepted"?

 

Never! Without love and commitment on both parts, it has a poor chance of success.

 

Do you want your kids ( right or wrong) to meet someone, fall in love and deny themselves that? Furthermore denying their mate to find the same?

 

Yes. If they have not exhausted all possibilities to improve the marital relationship and then ended it officially. Once they have done that, they can date and meet whomever they want, honestly and with integrity.

 

Is the appearance more important than really being honest and saying... I love you, but my heart is with another.

 

Could care less about appearances. Actually, my fWS is much more concerned with "appearances" than I am. As far as I can tell, my children are taking after me.

 

Do you want them to hide who they are for almost 25 years? He did, in very important areas.

 

That is his fault, IMHO. Especially if he never communicated that effectively to his spouse.

 

 

The bottom line: It is NOT developing feelings for another that destroys; it is LYING and DECEIVING to loved ones to fuel that relationship and keeping it a secret, that destroys families.

 

Everything else is smoke and mirrors and bull****.

[bentnotbroken]

That is his fault, IMHO. Especially if he never communicated that effectively to his spouse.

 

 

The bottom line: It is NOT developing feelings for another that destroys; it is LYING and DECEIVING to loved ones to fuel that relationship and keeping it a secret, that destroys families.

 

Everything else is smoke and mirrors and bull****.

 

 

HERE....HERE! :bunny: And for many the lack choice.

[Ellin]

The bottom line: It is NOT developing feelings for another that destroys; it is LYING and DECEIVING to loved ones to fuel that relationship and keeping it a secret, that destroys families.

 

Everything else is smoke and mirrors and bull****.

Right, so developing feelings for another doesn't destroy a family? How's that?

 

Another thing is, when someone develops feelings for another it often means that something important is missing in the existing R.

[Spark1111]

Right, so developing feelings for another doesn't destroy a family? How's that?

 

Another thing is, when someone develops feelings for another it often means that something important is missing in the existing R.

 

Oh PULLEAZE!

 

Own your attractions and tell me! Own your choices and tell me! Own you actions like an adult and tell me!

 

So, my husband hid his secret affair and OW to SPARE MY FEELINGS? To protect his family from pain?

 

C'MON! It was to spare him the consequences of his cowardly actions! It had nothing to do with me or his OW.

 

Look, I am an adult. As much as it would have hurt to hear he had developed feelings for another, I would have had choices: WE would have choices; repair the marriage or not; get counseling; date others.

 

It would have been soooo much more respectful to me AND to his OW.

 

I hope you NEVER know the pain of someone you love and trust lying to you on a daily basis.

 

And yes, everything else is justifications, bs, and cowardly avoidance. I remain appalled by how many women believe this standard line of drivel.

[Silly_Girl]

Right, so developing feelings for another doesn't destroy a family? How's that?

 

Another thing is, when someone develops feelings for another it often means that something important is missing in the existing R.

 

Exactly. There are instances when a relationship is in such a poor state (your second point) that developing feelings for another (your first point) is just another factor. Not the straw that broke the camel's back or the most significant issue.

 

Most people understand that developing feelings for someone other than your spouse, whilst wrong, is not necessarily a difficult position to get in to. It's quite possible that at that stage things can be discussed or resolved and dealt with in a mature fashion.

 

But lying, cheating, gaslighting; conscious frequent actions which are destructive, hurtful and traumatic... It's often the fallout from THAT that becomes the main focus and is so hard to forgive/forget/process. It can cause such hostility and vitriol. And it shows the most enormous lack of respect.

 

I agree it's not the 'developing feelings' so much, it's the way the WS deals with things at that point.

[fooled once]

The assumption that the BW used the kids against the MM is what turned this thread into a fest on the role of children in a family.

 

I see nothing wrong with a BW telling her kids. Nothing at all, especially when they are old enough to know what it takes to have an affair and see the way it affected their family.

 

But the OW basically seeming to say to the BW that she was wrong to tell her own children who were affected by their father's deceit smacks of self-serving and not at all in the interest of those children either. The OW doesn't want the kids to know the role she played in the destruction of their family life. So the OW takes telling the kids as an affront to her potential R with them, but makes it about the MM somehow. At least this is my thought on it. Because if the kids hate her already, there is practically no chance in Hell that the MM is going to leave their mother for this particular OW.

 

I am always amused by people who don't have kids who seem to have answers on how to raise kids. I am amused at how 'easy' some try to make it look. If they only knew.

 

I sat my 6 year old son down and told him of his father and mine divorce. He asked questions, I answered them appropriately. His father was there - he never spoke a word.

 

I do not lie to my son about important things (I lied about Santa, the tooth fairy and the fact that Toys R Us was closed for restocking when he kept pestering me to go and buy a toy)

 

I read on here how the BS uses the children -- it is implied it is posted about here all the time. Can someone point that thread out to me? It seems to be a 'standard' answer that OW use when the children are told of the affair. I don't understand why it is to remain a secret from them. Heck I have seen on here OW say they don't want the kids to know they were involved with dad so they are trying to figure out ways and when to introduce daddy's new girlfriend right after the divorce. Is it better that a kid isn't told until they are 21 that dad cheated on mom instead of divorcing her? Is it better to wait until the kid is a college graduate or in their own marriage? When is the best time to tell the kid dad cheated on mom?

 

How can OW say that the affair didn't interfere with the family? Remember, these are all great dads, so why wasn't dad with kid instead of off having sex with the OW? We see on here all the time about how much time dad and OW spend on the phone and on the computer ... why isn't dad spending that time with the kid? I mean, kids are only young for so long .. why is dad spending that valuable time missing the kids upbringing by spending hours upon hours on the phone with OW? If they are such great dads...shouldn't the daylight hours be devoted to being a dad?

 

 

I guess those that are self serving would see that.

 

I actually feel incredibly sorry for their girls. I clearly remember the challenges I had in my teens, first loves- first relationships, picking universities, the changing dynamics of your childhood friends.

 

They do not need to be the band-aid that holds a marriage together... sorry, NID... they don't.

 

But hey..... let's make sure it is as difficult for him to leave me as humanely possible... because feels so much better going to bed at night:rolleyes:

 

That is a lesson I would love to teach my children. Your Mom/Dad loved another woman and had an affair for over a year.... he went out of our marriage for over 10 years.... "bad man".... But hey... it's ok, I love him.... so I will put up with it.... BUT, don't you do that.

 

Really..... a much better option.

 

Are you a parent MOTF?

 

How do you know what is told to these kids? Are you there? Are you hearing "his" version of it?

 

How about dad divorce mom and then date? How about dad show his kids about honoring commitments and if it doesn't work out (and it DOES happen - things don't work out) that it is better to man up and discuss it with his partner instead of slinking away on the side to get some? How about dad teach morals and values to his child? Do you think any kid wants to stand up in class when it is his/her turn to share about their parent and announce "Daddy wasn't happy with mommy so he found someone new to play with but he didn't tell mommy". Don't we teach our kids not to lie, not to make promises, to apologize when they do something wrong? Aren't we the adults to be the role models for our kids? What happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and owning your mistakes? Is it the MM way to blame others?

 

I mean, parents discipline their kids for crappy behavior - not being nice to others, not hurting others, not lying to others. We teach our children the golden rule "Treat others as you want to be treated". Why is it something we instill in our kids, but it doesn't apply to the adults in their life.

 

How can you condemn someone else (a wife) for how she chooses to tell her children of their fathers indiscretion? Should she have consulted you prior to telling her kids?

 

I think most people would agree that there is NO REASON for the BS to lie to her kids especially right after their father has blown her world apart. She shouldn't have to protect HIM or the OW. Her job is to now pick up the pieces of her family -- because as we all know, most times the MOM is the one who will be raising the children while dad has his weekend visits. She will be the one answering their questions and comforting them for years to come. She will be the one to reassure them that what their father did wasn't because of them or even because of her - it will be because of HIM and no one else. There is no way the wife should have to take on his actions too -- she has enough on her plate.

 

When divorce happens, there is a ton of stress and yep, things get said in the heat of the moment. Even though I wanted my divorce, there were times I was overwhelmed with raising my son, trying to stretch the pennies and doing both MOM AND DAD things and then my ex would call and yet again cancel visitation. I was left with telling our son, who was sitting and looking out the window for his dad. I would tell our son "dad canceled because he has to clean his house <his actual excuse as to why he wasn't picking him up>". I was the one who held our son while he cried and asked "does daddy still love me". I was the one who dealt with it. So before you start saying how the wife/mom does all these wrong things - LIVE it first. It isn't nearly as easy as you like to make it out to be.

 

Because the OW/OM was an active participant in the destruction of their parent's marriage, and ultimately participated in the potential destruction of their family and home life as they know it.

 

Because they use their parent's relationships as a role model for their own. Because they know that these relationships reflect the character of the people who participate in them. They reflect the values and morals of their parents...and impact the child's values and morals as a result.

 

Because these ACTIONS reflect the true morals and true values that are reflected in how the treat other people. They judge because they're aware that in order to establish these relationships, lies were told, deceptions pulled off, and that they laid aside the impacts to the BS and the family impacted in order to conduct these relationships...usually in direct conflict with the "public" values and morals that these people profressed to have prior to (and often during) the affair.

 

Excellent post Owl, as usual!

 

Adults/parents are entitled to a life. But when you CHOOSE to bring children into this world, it is your job as a parent to put your needs aside and parent/teach your children. Your needs come after theirs. I can't stand hearing how one person should be above another person in terms of priorities - the priority is the family.

 

If Dad isn't getting his needs met by his wife - DIVORCE her or separate from her. Don't cheat on her. Don't disrespect her and his kids by sneaking around and leading a double life. I don't understand how hard that is to grasp

[Spark1111]

Exactly. There are instances when a relationship is in such a poor state (your second point) that developing feelings for another (your first point) is just another factor. Not the straw that broke the camel's back or the most significant issue.

 

Most people understand that developing feelings for someone other than your spouse, whilst wrong, is not necessarily a difficult position to get in to. It's quite possible that at that stage things can be discussed or resolved and dealt with in a mature fashion.

 

But lying, cheating, gaslighting; conscious frequent actions which are destructive, hurtful and traumatic... It's often the fallout from THAT that becomes the main focus and is so hard to forgive/forget/process. It can cause such hostility and vitriol. And it shows the most enormous lack of respect.

 

I agree it's not the 'developing feelings' so much, it's the way the WS deals with things at that point.

 

On this, we most definitely agree!

[bentnotbroken]

You know it's not true that the OW is ALWAYS seen as an interloper or trash.

 

She is by the BS and his/her supporters.

 

But everyone else either doesn't care or gets over it. Including the children of the marriage. Life is too short for most people to hold a grudge forever.

 

It's just more propaganda that the MM and OW will never be able to live it down to get them to end the R.

 

 

You're right....isn't true. Not all BS or the supporters of honesty see an ow as trash. There are a lot of things I think of the ow in my situation...trash isn't one of them.

 

I also don't know what kind of family relationships you are exposed to as it is clear you don't know the kind some BS are exposed to. NOT only do others care about the BS, they care about the covenient of marriage, and some children don't just get over it. They adjust. But having the image of a parent changed isn't easy for most people to take...child or adult.

 

Grudges are what petty people deal in. For those of us who choose not to let certain people in our lives again has very little to do with grudges and more to do with self perservation.

 

And I guess propaganda is in the eye of the beholder...that's what most the bitter, can't get over it, holding on to some lame azz man at any cost BS mantra represents....propaganda.

[Spark1111]

That is interesting spark, and brings to light the fundamental differences I have with people, in general.

 

Why do they see the OW as the trash?

 

Why do they judge their parent for a relationship he failed at with another person, other than themselves?

 

This IS my big big issue. Why is it that people think they have the right ( family, brother, sisters, daughters, co-workers) on and on.... to actually judge someone by their relationship with others?

 

I won't have that. The people in my life love me for me, they really do and honestly, I think it is the old mentality that keeps SO MANY stuck.

 

I want the children in my life to live, to make mistakes and to own them as a human - I do NOT want them to feel judged, less than or make them believe they have to live up to some pre-conceived idea I created.

 

Who am I to tell someone what they shouldn't and shouldn't do.... and that goes for the people/family in my life I love.

 

To me, living your best means being open to the human fact that people make mistakes, that people grow and at times grow apart. That is LIFE.

 

Some will say a WS cheats on his family - I can only speak for mine. He loves his daughters, they did not suffer or have scheduled altered because of our affair and they did not feel unloved while he was in his affair - they simply didn't.

 

The only one that can "judge" is his/her W/H and the truth ... enforcing their thoughts, feeling or suggesting others judge for actions against them is malicious and only to feed the "poor me" self that we all have. It is the need to hear " ah, you poor thing...that's ok Mom/Dad... I love you".

 

Sorry, MOTF....I missed this.

 

I think in a family such as ours, we were raised to "always tell the truth," no matter what the mistake was we made.

 

We were taught to have honor and integrity, humility in all of our accomplishments, and the courage of our convictions, and we had better be able to defend them.

 

So, when you see a very honorable man, a pillar of the community and a wonderfully devoted family man, not only hide his affair but his OW too, like some errant school boy,...well, judgements were harsh towards both him and her.

 

Because it was the ONLY thing hidden in an open and transparent life, as if he knew it was wrong; as if he knew if would tarnish all he had acheived.

 

And, unfortunately, it did. She was the polar opposite of the woman he had married; uneducated, unpolished, unpopular with a penchant for really garrish and suggestive clothing and spending his money at every opportunity.

 

So those who loved him, who still talk to him, forgave him for his "temporary insanity." His children tolerate him, but no one speaks to her.

 

And is that unfair? Yes, I think so. But if you allow yourself to be kept like a dirty little secret, than unfortuantely, people will think less of you.

 

And they did, sadly.

 

So, if we all lived in a perfect world, yes, people who love would/should forgive my mistakes and allow me to be who I am and love whom I want.

 

I do not disagree with this. But sadly, people are very judgemental. As a successfully reconciled fBS, I too am judged negatively many times, for taking him back. It's a Catch-22.

 

But we both know it is not the feelings of love that is wrong, per se. It is in keeping those feelings secret that devastates families, especially children, IMHO.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the proper disclosing and handling of those feelings is paramount to success of ALL future relationships; with a spouse or xspouse, children, family, friends and acquainances.

 

It is just the way it is.

[Spark1111]

oh...and the wife was adored, absolutely adored, and credited for every success he had attained.

 

He had publicly proclaimed that on many, many occasions.

 

So it is also true that no one truly knows what goes on in a marriage, or what he told his OW regarding his marriage.

 

But for all that knew them, publicly and privately, he did seem to "have it all." Until his secret life was revealed, somewhat accidentally, by grown daughters who intuited something "not right," and pressed and pressed until they discovered the truth (not from him.)

 

Go figure.

[Myowntwofeet]

oh...and the wife was adored, absolutely adored, and credited for every success he had attained.

 

He had publicly proclaimed that on many, many occasions.

 

So it is also true that no one truly knows what goes on in a marriage, or what he told his OW regarding his marriage.

 

But for all that knew them, publicly and privately, he did seem to "have it all." Until his secret life was revealed, somewhat accidentally, by grown daughters who intuited something "not right," and pressed and pressed until they discovered the truth (not from him.)

 

Go figure.

 

Spark, thanks for the post(s).... I think we agree more than we would ever admit:p

 

I just quickly wanted to stop by and say I haven't opened a can of worms and left!

 

I am incredibly busy for the next day or so with work.... I "played" here a little longer this morning than I should have and then was completely absorbed with my duties.

 

I appreciate the open discussion and I am sure I will have responses once I have a chance to sit and read them.

 

In the meantime this girl has got to get some sleep, long past her bedtime and an early day ahead tomorrow.

 

Back later....but in the meantime... carry on!

[pureinheart]

Well, you're of course welcome to your opinion. In my case...there was no way to "hide" it from the kids...on d-day, when confronted, he purchased my wife tickets to fly to live with him. She initially made the choice to go. I told her that it was her choice...and she would be the one to discuss/explain to the kids as need be. When they got home from school that day, I went for a 5 mile walk to give her the time to do so, in her own words without me coloring the situation.

 

My kids weren't "used" for anything. They were old enough to hear from her what was going on, and make their own decisions on their interactions with her and with him (if it had gone that far).

 

 

 

 

 

Nor did I run my wife down to my kids. On the contrary...I refused to allow THEM to be disrespectful of her, regardless of what she was doing at the time.

 

But I also didn't encourage them to accept her actions when clearly these actions were against every value that WE had taught them.

 

"Love the person, hate the action".

 

This is probably why our family was able to forgive each other and recover as well as we did, in the long run.

 

The assumption that the BW used the kids against the MM is what turned this thread into a fest on the role of children in a family.

 

I see nothing wrong with a BW telling her kids. Nothing at all, especially when they are old enough to know what it takes to have an affair and see the way it affected their family.

 

But the OW basically seeming to say to the BW that she was wrong to tell her own children who were affected by their father's deceit smacks of self-serving and not at all in the interest of those children either. The OW doesn't want the kids to know the role she played in the destruction of their family life. So the OW takes telling the kids as an affront to her potential R with them, but makes it about the MM somehow. At least this is my thought on it. Because if the kids hate her already, there is practically no chance in Hell that the MM is going to leave their mother for this particular OW.

 

.......................................................................................................

 

I was the BS keeping the kids away from the knowledge of their fathers EMA's...I didn't want them run down in any way...agree to disagree as I don't feel it's a good idea...I saw what worked for me and how I was grateful not to be put in that position as a kid, for the mostpart got to be a kid and a teenager without those types of pressures, and it is pressure to them.

 

From seeing most of your guys posts, I would say you guys are good parents, just a difference of opinion/child/teen rearing.

 

Actually none of you guys were the LSers I was refering to, can't remember their screen names, although I have seen a lot of them pass through.

 

Owl, I should have bolded what I was refering to with your reply...my bad, I did make it sound like the reply was meant for you in it's entirety.

 

 

NID...in this case the kids could be having a lot of help with the hating, which is the case in most cases...at least the ones I know of.

 

BNB...wow, we are from a different generation...in no way shape or form would I discuss my sex life with my kids...now concerning exDM and his exW, they were raunchy in their verbage concerning sex...extremely vulgar...I know you wouldn't approve of that.

 

Actually, I've never discussed my sex life with anyone ever, call me what ever, although I think that is something privite.

[Ellin]

Oh PULLEAZE!

 

Own your attractions and tell me! Own your choices and tell me! Own you actions like an adult and tell me!

 

So, my husband hid his secret affair and OW to SPARE MY FEELINGS? To protect his family from pain?

 

C'MON! It was to spare him the consequences of his cowardly actions! It had nothing to do with me or his OW.

 

Look, I am an adult. As much as it would have hurt to hear he had developed feelings for another, I would have had choices: WE would have choices; repair the marriage or not; get counseling; date others.

 

It would have been soooo much more respectful to me AND to his OW.

I never said any of what you are above implying.

 

First of all, I didn't realise you were talking about your personal situation - I'm not familiar with it and your post sounded like a general observation.

 

Show me where I ever tried to excuse lies and secrets. I said nothing about that at all.

 

 

I hope you NEVER know the pain of someone you love and trust lying to you on a daily basis.

I know it all too well, but thanks for being so sympathetic.

And yes, everything else is justifications, bs, and cowardly avoidance. I remain appalled by how many women believe this standard line of drivel.

 

I don't know what standard line of drivel you're talking about and if you regard me one of those women who appall you so much.

 

The only thing I disagreed with you on is that developing feelings for someone other than spouse is not something that is harmless and will never destroy a family, even if communicated openly.

 

And I still stand by my opinion that, as any relationship is a two-way street, some harm is likely to have been done to it prior to one partner starting to have feelings for someone else. I'm speaking generally and not about your personal life. It could be as "little" as taking someone for granted. There are always two sides to every story and every situation is more or less different.

[Spark1111]

I never said any of what you are above implying.

 

First of all, I didn't realise you were talking about your personal situation - I'm not familiar with it and your post sounded like a general observation.

 

Show me where I ever tried to excuse lies and secrets. I said nothing about that at all.

 

 

I know it all too well, but thanks for being so sympathetic.

 

 

I don't know what standard line of drivel you're talking about and if you regard me one of those women who appall you so much.

 

The only thing I disagreed with you on is that developing feelings for someone other than spouse is not something that is harmless and will never destroy a family, even if communicated openly.

 

And I still stand by my opinion that, as any relationship is a two-way street, some harm is likely to have been done to it prior to one partner starting to have feelings for someone else. I'm speaking generally and not about your personal life. It could be as "little" as taking someone for granted. There are always two sides to every story and every situation is more or less different.

 

Ellin, on this we agree!

 

HE and I were each 50% responsible for the marriage.

 

But HE and she were 100% responsible for their affair.

 

I cannot be responsible for choices and actions made outside the scope of my knowledge. I am also not responsible for the lies he told me; her; her belief in them; and the lies he told himself to justify his deception!

 

I was NEVER given an opportunity to fix what was broken; he never communicated it to me! Just criticized, complained, grew arrogant and disdainful at home while allowing her to think I no longer loved him.

 

The truth?

 

That would have set us all (WS, OW, BS) free, but it wouldn't have allowed him to keep his cake and eat it too.

 

For that, you need a willing participant to believe his drivel that he is staying for the sake of his kids, his money, maybe next year, blah, blah, blah.....

 

That keeps the OW hooked and hopeful for a long time; it also ensures that the wife he claims is loveless, is not free to pursue the same romantic life he enjoys because he keeps her in the dark, therefore preventing her the same freedom he has.

 

Nice set up, dontcha think?

[Owl]

I don't agree with this.

 

50% is an F. Two F's still equal an F!

 

If both parties don't give 100% in the R, the R is not going to do so well.

 

What happens when people go to work and give 50%?

 

Yeah, they get fired.

 

EEG

 

I think you may want to go back and revisit mathematics again.

 

This isn't a grade we're talking about, but 'effort involved'.

 

The idea being that each partner is responsible for contributing their part to the whole of the marriage. (you know...half plus half equaling a whole)

 

And if ONE partner stops contributing (by having an affair)...then the marriage IS doomed to fail, regardless of the efforts of the other. (perhaps your 100%-50%= an F analogy might fit here now?)

[Ellin]

Ellin, on this we agree!

 

HE and I were each 50% responsible for the marriage.

 

But HE and she were 100% responsible for their affair.

 

I cannot be responsible for choices and actions made outside the scope of my knowledge. I am also not responsible for the lies he told me; her; her belief in them; and the lies he told himself to justify his deception!

 

I was NEVER given an opportunity to fix what was broken; he never communicated it to me! Just criticized, complained, grew arrogant and disdainful at home while allowing her to think I no longer loved him.

 

The truth?

 

That would have set us all (WS, OW, BS) free, but it wouldn't have allowed him to keep his cake and eat it too.

 

For that, you need a willing participant to believe his drivel that he is staying for the sake of his kids, his money, maybe next year, blah, blah, blah.....

 

That keeps the OW hooked and hopeful for a long time; it also ensures that the wife he claims is loveless, is not free to pursue the same romantic life he enjoys because he keeps her in the dark, therefore preventing her the same freedom he has.

 

Nice set up, dontcha think?

Ok Spark, I know what you're saying, but could you please, when replying to my post, stay ON TOPIC e.i. the statement of my post you're replying to.

 

Once again: the lying, cheating etc IS WRONG but what I said was that developing feelings for another can on its own destroy a family, even if communicated, which means without the lies and cheating. You had stated that it's not that, only the lies and cheating that destroys it. I disagreed.

 

Is that clear enough?

[jthorne]

I think you may want to go back and revisit mathematics again.

 

This isn't a grade we're talking about, but 'effort involved'.

 

The idea being that each partner is responsible for contributing their part to the whole of the marriage. (you know...half plus half equaling a whole)

 

And if ONE partner stops contributing (by having an affair)...then the marriage IS doomed to fail, regardless of the efforts of the other. (perhaps your 100%-50%= an F analogy might fit here now?)

I get what you are saying, Owl. A marriage is one thing, 100%. There are two people in a marriage, making two halves of the whole marriage. It's up to each partner to give 100% effort to make their half (50%) of the whole (100%) marriage.

[jennie-jennie]

Ok Spark, I know what you're saying, but could you please, when replying to my post, stay ON TOPIC e.i. the statement of my post you're replying to.

 

Once again: the lying, cheating etc IS WRONG but what I said was that developing feelings for another can on its own destroy a family, even if communicated, which means without the lies and cheating. You had stated that it's not that, only the lies and cheating that destroys it. I disagreed.

 

Is that clear enough?

 

I think it it is really hard for the BSs to understand that many OW actually think the lying and cheating is wrong. It seems they think we commend these actions

[NoIDidn't]

I think it it is really hard for the BSs to understand that many OW actually think the lying and cheating is wrong. It seems they think we commend these actions

 

How else does one know that a partner is lying to someone else and doesn't care about it because it isn't happening to them? Seems to me that the OW/OP commends the actions when they get them what they want.

 

Shame some people still think its only BSs that feel this way. Many former OPs feel this way having had their eyes open, and people that have NEVER even be in affairs feel the same.