unconventional relationship

[TaraMaiden]

No, I'm afraid most psychologists and counsellors will tell you the opposite, and it has been shown to be so on this forum, too many times to mention:

Fear paralyses.

Fear prevents movement and progress. Fear keeps people stuck, and fear makes people irrational.

Poly has never been the answer to a broken relationship....but this relationship isn't broken.

Not according to VF.

But in the opinion of many on this thread, this is doomed.

Why do people say this?

 

Possibly because they bitterly resent somebody making a potential separation reversible, and see that far from being broken, it dares to venture outside the box, and continue to be successful, but in an altogether different direction.

It certainly would have been broken if all parties had given up on it and decided that there were only two possible solutions to this dilemma:

Reconciliation, or divorce.

This was the route taken by many who are raising their voices in objection, but I still wonder if these people had considered this an option with their exes, how many would actually have survived the disruption?

 

The fact that VF and his wife and her lover have chosen to diversify and seek a third, alternative option, begs the question:

 

The question is not so much why/how can they do it - but why/how can others not?

[Distant78]

The anger stage will show again and the "arrangement" will blow to pieces when one in the group decides that the plan isn't enough, as the guilt overshadows the rational part of their mind. Hopefully, it will be the BS in this situation. As another stated, I hope he doesn't drive her there either because that's asking for too much to drive your spouse to another lover's house as they stand on their porch waiting. Where treasure lies, there is trash. Increased STD, pregnancy, and divorce risks, coupled with the tiredness of mating with the same species will prevail over the premises.

[TaraMaiden]

"same species".....??

 

I'm sorry, that doesn't make any sense at all...

[LittleTiger]

What if he is?

And what if the other guy's driving her back?

What's your point?

 

I wish I really could understand just what it is about this set-up that you all find so objectionable.

VF has tried, time and again, to outline that in whichever way they've arranged this, it's working for them.

but folks is still coming in with the unfairness of it all, the impermanence, the subterfuge and hypocrisy...

But nobody who has objected has actually ever tried something like this and has any personal experience in such matters to be able to give objective and constructive advice.

All these objections stem from a position of prejudice and judgement, hypothesis and assumption.

 

For you guys, it couldn't possibly work, because it couldn't possibly work for you.

For you guys this is just a non-starter, because it's not anything any of you would ever start.

 

But why is it so difficult - nay, at times, impossible - for any of you to actually see this as a possibly successful venture and a working premise?

 

just because it's not for you, why pour cold water and pessimism on something that is obviously working for them?

Why presume it is doomed to failure, purely and simply because you're basing your assumptions on our own past?

Which, incidentally, is nothing like their present, in more ways than one?

 

What, about this arrangement, actually bothers you so much?

 

Anyone..?

 

I've just caught up on this entire thread which, I have to say, is pretty fascinating. It's a shame the OP seems to have disappeared though.

 

If it's working for them then who are we to make any comment about the rights and wrongs of it?

 

The one thing that bothers me personally,and I admit it is entirely to do with my own values and beliefs, is that the initial behaviour of VF's wife suggests a total lack of respect for his feelings.

 

I agree that humans are not naturally monogamous, however, we are naturally serial monogamists. We are, I believe, biologically progammed to pair off for a limited length of time for the sake of our offspring and I guess that could happen a number of times during our reproductive years. At the end of our reproductive years (ie women over 40) there are no biologically driven rules that I know of.

 

Obviously society has moved on since our 'primitive' days and we have created morals and rules which dictate that we 'should' attempt to stay married for life. However, these days, 'life' is a very, very long time in stable relationship terms - hence the increasing divorce rate. What keeps couples together long term, ie until death do us part, (I'm talking here about the elderly couples you see strolling on a beach holding hands and laughing together) is love and RESPECT. Very few couples make it happily into their old age, but the ones who do have this in common. They value each other, and their relationship, over and above everything else in their lives. Most of us don't stand a chance of living up to this ideal.

 

When my own failed marriage hit the rocks a few years back we discussed a number of unconventional ideas to try and make it work, including living next door to each other, open marriage etc. It didn't pan out that way and eventually he left, but even our post separation and divorce relationship is unconventional. He works overseas now but when he was home in July he came to stay with me for a week (spare room). We went hiking together, watched TV together, talked about our failed marriage and our new partners. He even took me out to dinner and we had a lovely evening. I've lost count of the number of people who tell me you can't stay friends with an ex - BS! We've been friends for nearly 40 yrs, so why should a divorce change that?

 

When one spouse cheats or walks out (or whatever), there's obviously a whole range of emotions but essentially what's lost it trust and respect and that's usually what destoys the marriage. Trust and respect are essential in any good relationship, romantic or otherwise.

 

So, for me, the lack of respect on his wife's part is the thing that bothers me (plus the inequality as Gorilla has mentioned). VF says things are going well, but in the same breath he says he wouldn't tolerate this a second time, which suggests he isn't entirely happy with the situation - and his wife is well aware of his feelings.

 

That said, it is their relationship and not ours so it's VF's decision what he will accept and what he won't. I forgave my husband for being selfish and immature but not to the extent that I could still be married to him. If VF can forgive his wife for hurting him and disrepecting him, and he obviously has, then I wish them the best of luck. Those who are able to be most flexible in life are most likely to survive.

 

It's certainly not an easy situation for any of them and I really hope VF comes back to let us know how it's going in the future.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

about sex and if that is the thing keeping her connected between both males, what makes her so wonderful to juggle two men (if not sex), the children she leaves (obviously with Taramaiden's blessing) 3 days a week with VF and the fact she is so unstable she got fired from her job, which means VF supports financially too her decision.

 

As said I stayed off this thread for weeks and only jumped in asking these questions and have got no answers.

 

I have been very adamant in my thinking that if VF wasn't getting a happy wife and lots of sex, she'd be out...

[TinaniT]

No, I'm afraid most psychologists and counsellors will tell you the opposite, and it has been shown to be so on this forum, too many times to mention:

Fear paralyses.

Fear prevents movement and progress. Fear keeps people stuck, and fear makes people irrational.

Poly has never been the answer to a broken relationship....but this relationship isn't broken.

Not according to VF.

But in the opinion of many on this thread, this is doomed.

Why do people say this?

 

Possibly because they bitterly resent somebody making a potential separation reversible, and see that far from being broken, it dares to venture outside the box, and continue to be successful, but in an altogether different direction.

It certainly would have been broken if all parties had given up on it and decided that there were only two possible solutions to this dilemma:

Reconciliation, or divorce.

This was the route taken by many who are raising their voices in objection, but I still wonder if these people had considered this an option with their exes, how many would actually have survived the disruption?

 

The fact that VF and his wife and her lover have chosen to diversify and seek a third, alternative option, begs the question:

 

The question is not so much why/how can they do it - but why/how can others not?

 

Huh, weird how I mentioned I had a situation start in much the same way, felt I had to convince myself I was okay with it, and still have some scars to deal with as a result, but that means no one has any insight on what possibly (not definitely, for sure) be going on here...

[xxoo]

I have been very adamant in my thinking that if VF wasn't getting a happy wife and lots of sex, she'd be out...

 

Well, but he IS getting that (for the moment....I'm not convinced that will remain long term....). And he wasn't getting that before this arrangement. So, if the "cost" is adding a man/losing 3 days, and the "benefit" is 4 days of happy wife and lots of sex, maybe it is simply worth it to VF.

 

I dunno. It wouldn't be worth it for me, especially under the circumstances of emotional infidelity and coercion. But I'm not VF. Maybe it really is worth it to him? Or maybe he is selling himself short, and doesn't believe he could have a peaceful home and loving sex partner without sharing her with another man if he stood up for himself.

[InceptorsRule]

Well, but he IS getting that (for the moment....I'm not convinced that will remain long term....). And he wasn't getting that before this arrangement. So, if the "cost" is adding a man/losing 3 days, and the "benefit" is 4 days of happy wife and lots of sex, maybe it is simply worth it to VF.

 

I dunno. It wouldn't be worth it for me, especially under the circumstances of emotional infidelity and coercion. But I'm not VF. Maybe it really is worth it to him? Or maybe he is selling himself short, and doesn't believe he could have a peaceful home and loving sex partner without sharing her with another man if he stood up for himself.

 

 

Actually the entire problem with the entire situation as described in the thread at least in terms of having a discussion of it, is vodka's insistence that it is he, rather than his wife, that is calling the shots.

 

Poly, whatever, is not as important as vodka being able to come to grips with the fact that he is NOT calling the shots. His wife clearly is.

 

He threatened to divorce her when he found out about the affair. But then he claims she begged him to come back. So HE deliberately set terms of reconciliation in which she would be banging some other dude for three days?

 

What's the point of that?

 

The only other thing that might be going on is that vodka actually has some kind of ulterior motive in all this that he hasn't chosen to disclose. Such as, a long-term plan in which he does want to get divorced, but first wants to be sure his wife sufficiently "attaches" to the next man/next "sucker" so as to diminish the likelihood that he will have to pay alimony/spousal support?

 

Listen, what if you've decided you're through with a marriage, want to get rid of the wife, but want to make ABSOLUTELY SURE you're completely rid of her, with the added bonus of minimizing your support obligations?

 

Wouldn't it be practical to try to ensure that she's ALREADY involved in a serious LTR with the next man?

 

Yes it's very cold blooded, it's sort of like something out of a Peter Schaeffer play, but nothing else really makes sense about vodka's situation.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Well, but he IS getting that (for the moment....I'm not convinced that will remain long term....). And he wasn't getting that before this arrangement. So, if the "cost" is adding a man/losing 3 days, and the "benefit" is 4 days of happy wife and lots of sex, maybe it is simply worth it to VF.

 

I dunno. It wouldn't be worth it for me, especially under the circumstances of emotional infidelity and coercion. But I'm not VF. Maybe it really is worth it to him? Or maybe he is selling himself short, and doesn't believe he could have a peaceful home and loving sex partner without sharing her with another man if he stood up for himself.

 

She won't be happy forever (or could she???), and the sex won't be as plentiful and then kids will start demanding more and then we'll see how long it lasts.....

 

I just thought of more..... I take it too, that when she is gone, he is maintaining the house, cleaning up, cooking and probably has it immaculate when she gets back, all to get her in the mood;):laugh:.....

[Distant78]

Actually the entire problem with the entire situation as described in the thread at least in terms of having a discussion of it, is vodka's insistence that it is he, rather than his wife, that is calling the shots.

 

Poly, whatever, is not as important as vodka being able to come to grips with the fact that he is NOT calling the shots. His wife clearly is.

 

He threatened to divorce her when he found out about the affair. But then he claims she begged him to come back. So HE deliberately set terms of reconciliation in which she would be banging some other dude for three days?

 

What's the point of that?

 

The only other thing that might be going on is that vodka actually has some kind of ulterior motive in all this that he hasn't chosen to disclose. Such as, a long-term plan in which he does want to get divorced, but first wants to be sure his wife sufficiently "attaches" to the next man/next "sucker" so as to diminish the likelihood that he will have to pay alimony/spousal support?

 

Listen, what if you've decided you're through with a marriage, want to get rid of the wife, but want to make ABSOLUTELY SURE you're completely rid of her, with the added bonus of minimizing your support obligations?

 

Wouldn't it be practical to try to ensure that she's ALREADY involved in a serious LTR with the next man?

 

Yes it's very cold blooded, it's sort of like something out of a Peter Schaeffer play, but nothing else really makes sense about vodka's situation.

 

Exactly. He shouldn't have to sacrifice himself so that his wife can have her cake and eat it. No wife is better than half a wife. IMO, it will stop soon. There is already evidence from OP that he's getting angry and impatient with this "arrangement."

[vodkafan]

Hmm, lots to read. I haven't disappeared, I just don't come here during my four days, I am kinda busy. Going to read up a little, may return later tonight.

[vodkafan]

about sex and if that is the thing keeping her connected between both males, what makes her so wonderful to juggle two men (if not sex), the children she leaves (obviously with Taramaiden's blessing) 3 days a week with VF and the fact she is so unstable she got fired from her job, which means VF supports financially too her decision.

 

As said I stayed off this thread for weeks and only jumped in asking these questions and have got no answers.

 

I have been very adamant in my thinking that if VF wasn't getting a happy wife and lots of sex, she'd be out...

 

Tood,

Taramaiden was right in surmising that I wanted to leave the children out of this discussion as much as possible. But I don't understand why you keep asking about sex and exactly what it is you want to know?

Sex is sex. She has sex with me as much as I want, and she has sex with him. That's it. It is an integral part of a marriage for me. Doubtless this statement will get twisted up all ways.

And why is she worth sharing? That is a subjective thing I guess.

When I started this I did not know what would happen. I keep stressing that. I couldn't know the future. Everything is fluid. Nobody owns anyone. I don't have everything I had before, but if she had been unhappy for some time, how long had I just been fooling myself anyway, living a lie?

Maybe I have enough for now. Every week has been different. I watch and wait.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Tood,

Taramaiden was right in surmising that I wanted to leave the children out of this discussion as much as possible. But I don't understand why you keep asking about sex and exactly what it is you want to know?

Sex is sex. She has sex with me as much as I want, and she has sex with him. That's it. It is an integral part of a marriage for me. Doubtless this statement will get twisted up all ways.

And why is she worth sharing? That is a subjective thing I guess.

When I started this I did not know what would happen. I keep stressing that. I couldn't know the future. Everything is fluid. Nobody owns anyone. I don't have everything I had before, but if she had been unhappy for some time, how long had I just been fooling myself anyway, living a lie?

Maybe I have enough for now. Every week has been different. I watch and wait.

 

Sorry, they should be the center of the discussion...... As for sex, I ask simply is that why you are okay with the relationship as it stands now????? The fact you are getting more then you can handle??? What if she says no or comes back from her 3 days in a bad mood that rubs off on you?

 

Are you happy now, because you are getting more sex???? I know that would go a long way in making me feel good..... You will say it is seeing her happy??? Well is that because you made her happy or the OM? Sorry could not live that way, but to each his own.

 

I ask simply because there are many men here complaining about sexless marriages and lamenting how much better all would be simply with some sex....

 

I really want to understand why you are okay with this? You have taken up the slack in parenting, the house and expenses so she can go off and live with another male half the week. Will she be able to keep up all this sex and great spirits having to give her heart to 2 men (forget the children)???

 

Because if it is not about the sex, then why are you still together and makes her so worth being with? What do you do and talk about when together? Probably the children and finances.....

Edited September 2, 2010 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Distant78]

Sorry, they should be the center of the discussion...... As for sex, I ask simply is that why you are okay with the relationship as it stands now????? The fact you are getting more then you can handle??? What if she says no or comes back from her 3 days in a bad mood that rubs off on you?

 

Are you happy now, because you are getting more sex???? I know that would go a long way in making me feel good..... You will say it is seeing her happy??? Well is that because you made her happy or the OM? Sorry could not live that way, but to each his own.

 

I ask simply because there are many men here complaining about sexless marriages and lamenting how much better all would be simply with some sex....

 

I really want to understand why you are okay with this? You have taken up the slack in parenting, the house and expenses so she can go off and live with another male half the week. Will she be able to keep up all this sex and great spirits having to give her heart to 2 men (forget the children)???

 

Because if it is not about the sex, then why are you still together and makes her so worth being with? What do you do and talk about when together? Probably the children and finances.....

 

Exactly. I don't think she'll be able to keep giving herself to two men for the next three years. This "arrangement" is all about sex and has been from day one. He's sacrificing his own happiness just to make his W happy so that she can have her cake and eat it. I know she had to have came home to one of them feeling tired. If I was staying over somone's house for three days having almost non-stop sex with them, then coming home to someone who needs sex for four days would have my body aching, especially if there is kids involved. Someone in this circle will crack soon, as others have hinted.

[vodkafan]

?

 

Are you happy now, because you are getting more sex???? I know that would go a long way in making me feel good..... You will say it is seeing her happy??? Well is that because you made her happy or the OM? Sorry could not live that way, but to each his own.

 

I ask simply because there are many men here complaining about sexless marriages and lamenting how much better all would be simply with some sex....

 

I really want to understand why you are okay with this? You have taken up the slack in parenting, the house and expenses so she can go off and live with another male half the week. Will she be able to keep up all this sex and great spirits having to give her heart to 2 men (forget the children)???

 

Because if it is not about the sex, then why are you still together and makes her so worth being with? What do you do and talk about when together? Probably the children and finances.....

 

She believes 100 % that she CAN give her heart to 2 men emotionally and physically. I didn't believe it, I gave her the chance because...rightly or wrongly I didn't see another way forward for US. I closed my mind off to the other guy.

Yet she seems to be settling into it and really working hard at it. She works hard at me in all ways and then I presume she works hard at him.

About the sex, it DOES go a long way to making me feel better. If she hated me and wanted to be away from me she wouldn't be able to keep that up. I know for a fact she gives me more sex than him because I need more. Simple as that. But it's not all about sex. No relationship is. I could go out and get sex from anybody, as Gorilla theater says.

The sex is not a competition.

About me taking over the house and parenting. I will be honest with you. I needed to. I was not a bad father before, but I could have been better. At the weekends on my three days working before I used to just come home and sleep. I felt like I was entitled to do that. I left everything to my wife. This has redressed the balance a lot. I know my kids more.

 

I am not 100 % happy. Thoughts and feelings come up all the time. I have to examine them and think: is this jealousy, is it hurt coming out, is it revenge? Or is it a genuine thing? Do we need to change something? I have plenty of time to think in my three days at work. I think about whether it is something I should bring up or something I can leave till another time. But if I am not happy about something I just bring it out.

We talk about everything. Sometimes she knows when not to talk.

 

When we are together.....we hardly ever talk about money. We do talk about the kids a lot. And each other. And the future. And sometimes a little about the other guy. Hope this helps you understand.

 

I am not a weirdo fetish person. Nor is my wife. She really hates the "open" or "swinging" idea. We are just ordinary people.

[GorillaTheater]

If you say this works for you, I'll take you at your word. But I hope that if this ever stops working for you, you'll face the situation squarely and make the necessary adjustments. Whatever they may be.

 

I think that regardless of the positions taken by the various posters on your thread, underlying all of it is a genuine concern for your well-being, wanting to make sure that your marriage is not so unhealthily important to you that you'd be willing to sacrifice your well-being and integrity to keep it alive. Not that you necessarily have based on your words, but at least on my part that concern is there nonetheless. There are far worse things than divorce (just throwing that out there).

[TaraMaiden]

....But it's not all about sex. No relationship is. I could go out and get sex from anybody, as Gorilla theater says.

 

 

well, just picking up on this bit...

First of all, it's not just GorillaTheater who's saying that.

 

And let me just say that we're not suggesting you 'could just go out and get sex from anybody'....

What we're suggesting is that it would be completely understandable, logical and wholly appropriate if at some point you were to meet another woman who floats your boat, in the same way this Other Guy floats your wife's boat - that you'd be perfectly entitled to consider engaging in a relationship with her, on the same footing and basis your wife has engaged in a relationship with the OG.

 

But I get the distinct impression that while you are actively, constructively and co-operatively working to maintain this situation on an even keel, it would be an anathema to you, to do the same thing in reverse, because for many reasons (I believe to be entrenched in social, familial and ethical conditioning) this is not something which would sit comfortably with you.

You can live with your wife's lifestyle choices, and even be a part of them.

 

It's not something that you yourself could do -

 

- Right now.

 

But as I previously pointed out, three years ago, you would never in a million years have considered this scenario to be a possibility.....

Edited September 2, 2010 by TaraMaiden

[GorillaTheater]

The fact that Tara can take what I say and make it sound, you know, articulate, is only one of many reasons why I think she totally rocks.

[WalkingOnEggs]

Battered women also think the relationship works. At least during the times they're not getting beaten up. If you were to ask them, they would tell you that things are fine, bu that the beatings were jusrt a one off thing. Every time.

 

And yet despite all their friends and family trying to point out that they(re getting abused, they don't see it. In fact they sometimes get resentful and cut off the people pointing this out.

 

To a certain extent, this reminds me of that syndrome. I really do think you're suffering from a form of abuse. I don't know why you put up with it other than fear and maybe a touch of low self esteem mixed with guilt ("I was such a bad husband and a bad father").

 

Those feelings of jealousy and anger are normal and expected. You're being asked to take on the role of a poly guy against your will. I know you don't see it, but I get the feeling that more than one of us sees that.

[Chrome Barracuda]

If she hates the idea of open marriage why is she doing this?

 

If you are not truly happy with this situation why are you agreeing to it. How can you as a man just sit back and know another dude is plowing YOUR wife. You know that if you had teenagers they would look at you like a chump, for NOT standing up for yourself.

 

What if you meet another female and tell your wife you want to have sex with her, and make it a permanent thing. With your OW on the side and your wife has to take care of the kids?

 

What if your wife has unprotected sex and catches a serious STD from this guy or someone else. i mean if it's okay to have sex with this one man who's to say she wont do it with someone else? i mean you already agreed to open the door, who's to say she will be satisfied with just you two.

 

You know deep down inside what your doing is wrong! then why are you tolerating this crap!

 

There are so many things that can go wrong!!! Are you prepared for the inevitable? or possibility?

[Italian flower]

Hi, new here, (male, married 20 years, six children) definitely not a troll just been in a painful place and looking for information and advice. I may reveal more about myself later on when I get to trust people a bit, At the moment I am sick of thinking through my situation so don't want to go into it all. Looked but didn't see any topic that relates to my marriage situation.

 

Basically my wife is in love with me and another man. She has NOT had an affair with this man, apart from text messages. But it has torn her apart for three months. It has ALMOST but not quite wrecked us and our family. I accept that she does love this man, he is not a bad person and he is divorced.

In a last ditch effort to save our marriage we have agreed between the three of us a contract where she stays with me for 4 days a week and him for the other 3 days, when I work away anyway. There is no change in our marriage, we still have loving sex , she never refuses me. We all understand our marriage is the priority. There are rules we have worked out and put in place.

We have only just started this arrangement and I wonder if anybody has experience of this , can it work?

It has given us hope where last week there seemed none.

 

Life can be complex. The world will frown on this type of relationship but what does the world know? You have to do what's right for you. If you are happy with this situation and she is happy with the situation then I'd say go for it. The only concern would be for the kids. Does she watch them while she's with him and you are gone? If the kids are elsewhere then that should work. If not, then they may have a problem understanding and you really need a convincing cover story for them.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

 

But I get the distinct impression that while you are actively, constructively and co-operatively working to maintain this situation on an even keel, it would be an anathema to you, to do the same thing in reverse, because for many reasons (I believe to be entrenched in social, familial and ethical conditioning) this is not something which would sit comfortably with you.

You can live with your wife's lifestyle choices, and even be a part of them.

 

It's not something that you yourself could do -

 

- Right now.

 

But as I previously pointed out, three years ago, you would never in a million years have considered this scenario to be a possibility.....

 

He doesn't have the time to be looking for women to bang.....

 

Again VF forgets about the kids or the fact his wife was fired because frankly the OM was more important then her job...... Conveniently forgotten in the conversation.

[GorillaTheater]

Again VF forgets about the kids

 

The kids. You know, if I was in VF's place, I'd divorce my wife rather than share her. It wouldn't even be a question.

 

But I think both of us would be hard-pressed to argue that divorce would be better for the kids than the current arrangement. Equally bad, perhaps, but not better.

[Distant78]

The kids. You know, if I was in VF's place, I'd divorce my wife rather than share her. It wouldn't even be a question.

 

But I think both of us would be hard-pressed to argue that divorce would be better for the kids than the current arrangement. Equally bad, perhaps, but not better.

 

Only time will tell...

[TaraMaiden]

The fact that Tara can take what I say and make it sound, you know, articulate, is only one of many reasons why I think she totally rocks.

 

 

(()) back atcha GT....