Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. ~H.G. Wells

[GreenEyedLady]

See...that's where I have the break down with this quote.

 

 

If I'm "morally indignant"...how does that mean I'm jealous?

 

I'm a very "empathic" person. Especially for a guy. It's easy for me to pause, "put myself in the other guy's shoes", and picture what they must be feeling, what they're side must be like.

 

I absolutely did this during my wife's affair after d-day...trying to understand both her and OM's 'sides' of all of this.

 

That doesn't mean I AGREE with their choices or actions...but it helps me to understand what motivated to make those choices and take those actions.

 

My advice so many times to OW and OM on this forum is to end the affair and get it out of it.

 

It's not done because I'm jealous for them. It's because I know that the situation is hurting them...and hurting others.

 

Empathy...not jealousy.

 

I think that the meaning of the quote is actually this:

 

Those who believe themselves perfect, aren't.

 

End of story.

 

GEL

[Mimolicious]

So if I dont celebrate something that to my standards is morally wrong, I am basically a "Hater"? NICE!

 

Originally Posted by TOWinNYC

I love this quote because personally, I think there is truth to this statement.

 

Anyone agree with that? Disagree? And why?

 

What is the "truth" in it? From your POV.

 

Originally Posted by TOWinNYC

To be honest, I don't know exactly what Wells was referring to in the above quote but I was thinking of the quote in terms of Happiness.

 

I think what I was trying to get at - is that there are people out there who LOVE to negate people's successes and stomp on their happiness. Whether it's a job promotion (he got the job because of his father) or a new love interest (she's with him for the money not love) or something else.

 

I think people say things like this because they themselves, are unhappy - and by looking into other peoples gardens and picking it apart allows them to not think of their OWN life (and fixing it or changing it).

 

When you’re happy, truly happy, you’re not focusing on other people and their actions or decisions. When you’re happy, you’re focused on yourself and all the blessings your life holds.

 

What does being happy and focusing on your own life has to do with ignoring things that are not morally right? Indignation is rightous anger at something considered unjust.

 

So because you are truly happy with your life, you don't see injustice going on around you? i.e. Child abuse, child porn. etc...

 

Maybe you're not understanding your own post?

 

Why is this on this on the OM/OW forum?

Edited July 22, 2010 by Mimolicious

[Fight4Me]

H.G. Wells married his cousin then left her shortly thereafter for one of his female students whom he also eventually married. From there, he had several affairs and fathered more than a few children from his liaisons.

 

That's just a very brief synopsis of his biography and might shed light on the inspiration behind the quote.

[Fieldsofgold]

So if I dont celebrate something that to my standards is morally wrong, I am basically a "Hater"? NICE!

 

 

 

What is the "truth" in it? From your POV.

 

 

 

What does being happy and focusing on your own life has to do with ignoring things that are not morally right? Indignation is rightous anger at something considered unjust.

 

So because you are truly happy with your life, you don't see injustice going on around you? i.e. Child abuse, child porn. etc...

 

Maybe you're not understanding your own post?

 

Why is this on this on the OM/OW forum?

 

I agree with this, and many of the othe posts.

 

Regardless of how happy I am in my personal life, I hope and pray that I am never complacent and am always indignant and quick to speak out against moral wrongs inflicted on innocent others.

 

I think this was submitted on this forum because it might have been intended to be about BS's, both former and current, being "morally indignant" i.e. "jealous" when an OW gets her MM and seems to "live happily ever after."

 

Of course, I see an equal amount of gnashing of teeth when MM dumps the OW to stay wih the BS.

 

Having been a BW, yes, it is vey hurtful to think that the man I loved, lied to me, and left me for another. And yes, for a while I was jealous. But I believe an affair is still morally wrong, regardless of whether I am hurt or jealous or not.

 

I certainly cannot imagine being jealous of another person because they seem to have momentarily "gotten by with," or temporarily seem to have profited from doing wrong, because I believe in a Power greater than all of us, Who knows the secret thoughts and intents of our hearts, and Who will judge and reward everyone according to his/her works. I believe we reap what we sow, both in this life, and the one we enter when we die. Just because I haven't "reaped yet" does not mean I have gotten by with anything. I definitely believe in a payday, someday. So no, I am not jealous because a moral wrong has been committed and seemingly gotten by with.

 

Whether I am jealous that you took my husband or not, does not matter. Adultery is still a sin and how G-d sees it is all that matters. If the two A partners end up getting married, that does not make the A any less of a sin. The marriage does not automatically make it all ok. There will still be consequences suffered as a result of the A. Adultery is forgiveable. But there are still consequences. In order for any sin to be forgiven, there has to be a realization and admission of wrongdoing. There has to be genuine remorse and repentance, a turning away from the sin. Then it is forgiven, and the people can go on and live without condemnation. But until there is true repentance, there is no forgiveness.

 

This is my belief, based on what I believe the Bible says.

 

So whether my moral indignation is really just jealousy or not, does not matter. The only thing that matters is how the "Power greater than all of us" judges it. The very real righteous indignation of G-d is all you really have to worry about.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[NancyBotwin]

Hi FieldsofGold, I love your post, but... Most people that buy into this quote most likely don't believe in God. HG Wells was a confirmed atheist.

[NoIDidn't]

H.G. Wells married his cousin then left her shortly thereafter for one of his female students whom he also eventually married. From there, he had several affairs and fathered more than a few children from his liaisons.

 

That's just a very brief synopsis of his biography and might shed light on the inspiration behind the quote.

 

So maybe this quote was directed at both his exWs, current W, AND the OWs that he left behind?

 

They were apparently jealous of him,at least in his mind, as he couldn't help that he was sooooo irresistible.

[jennie-jennie]

Hmm ... I informed the OW's adult son of her affair with my husband. I used no rude or obscene words and did not call her any names. I merely told him that she and my husband used to spend their lunctimes having sex. She sent me an e-mail expressing moral indignation that I contacted her son. "Indecent" was the word she used.

 

I guess that you would think it means she's very jealous of me?

 

Personally I don't agree with either you or HG Wells.

 

You what?!!! Why did you consider it your duty to inform anybody who is not the BS about an adult person's sex life? If someone had found it their duty to inform me about any of my parents' sex life:

[jennie-jennie]

I think that the meaning of the quote is actually this:

 

Those who believe themselves perfect, aren't.

 

End of story.

 

GEL

 

Exactly.

.

[SidLyon]

You what?!!! Why did you consider it your duty to inform anybody who is not the BS about an adult person's sex life? If someone had found it their duty to inform me about any of my parents' sex life:

 

You read correctly.

 

The OW's sons were both betrayed too by their mother. The older son was a child at the time of the affair and she had the affair with my H while she was pregnant with her younger son, and after he was born he was present on a number of occasions while they were conducting their affair. Do I hear your moral indignation about this Jennie?

 

Their father (her BH) then died and she invited my H to his funeral and also to the graveside. Do you have any moral indignation about this too?

 

I didn't discover the A until after her BH's death. I informed her oldest son who by then was an adult and also the BH's parents (in the absence of a BH by that time) . The parents were very sympathetic towards me and very unflattering about their newly widowed daughter-in-law. I think it confirmed their view of her as an unpleasant person.

 

Why do I think that you will reserve your own moral indignation for only my actions in this very tragic situation?

 

And what is it you would have done if someone had informed you about your parent's sex life? What he did was take up with his mother her betrayal of her husband and children - not with me the mere messenger, and victim of her disgraceful actions.

Edited July 23, 2010 by SidLyon

[donnamaybe]

H.G. Wells married his cousin then left her shortly thereafter for one of his female students whom he also eventually married. From there, he had several affairs and fathered more than a few children from his liaisons.

 

That's just a very brief synopsis of his biography and might shed light on the inspiration behind the quote.

Ah, got it. So this quote wasn't borne by any exceptional insight but merely a defense mechanism to his own personal shortcomings.

[Fieldsofgold]

Ah, got it. So this quote wasn't borne by any exceptional insight but merely a defense mechanism to his own personal shortcomings.

 

Yes, and after reading his biography, I realize he had quite a few "shortcomings," (OW), while his second wife endured it for 30 years. Seems he even named one of his several "affair children" after his wife. Interestingly, after his wife died, he never re-married.

 

So no, the quote was not borne out of a great spiritual revelation - more likely it was in defense of his incessant philandering and child-fathering.

[Owl]

I think that the meaning of the quote is actually this:

 

Those who believe themselves perfect, aren't.

 

End of story.

 

GEL

 

If that were the quote...then I wouldn't have an issue with it.

 

But that's not what it says. That might be the author's INTENT...but that's not what it SAYS.

 

What it sounds like is that the author is trying to say that there is something wrong with people who are "morally offended" by others. That they're just jealous that they didn't get to play.

 

I don't buy that at all.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Owl

[Owl]

You read correctly.

 

The OW's sons were both betrayed too by their mother. The older son was a child at the time of the affair and she had the affair with my H while she was pregnant with her younger son, and after he was born he was present on a number of occasions while they were conducting their affair. Do I hear your moral indignation about this Jennie?

 

Their father (her BH) then died and she invited my H to his funeral and also to the graveside. Do you have any moral indignation about this too?

 

I didn't discover the A until after her BH's death. I informed her oldest son who by then was an adult and also the BH's parents (in the absence of a BH by that time) . The parents were very sympathetic towards me and very unflattering about their newly widowed daughter-in-law. I think it confirmed their view of her as an unpleasant person.

 

Why do I think that you will reserve your own moral indignation for only my actions in this very tragic situation?

 

And what is it you would have done if someone had informed you about your parent's sex life? What he did was take up with his mother her betrayal of her husband and children - not with me the mere messenger, and victim of her disgraceful actions.

 

Actually, this raises an interesting point.

 

The "focus" isn't on the parent's "sex life"...

 

The "focus" was really on the betrayal perpetrated by one parent against the other.

 

Trying to CHANGE that "focus" to being about the parent's sex life is just deflection of the REAL ISSUE being brought forward.

[jennie-jennie]

You read correctly.

 

The OW's sons were both betrayed too by their mother. The older son was a child at the time of the affair and she had the affair with my H while she was pregnant with her younger son, and after he was born he was present on a number of occasions while they were conducting their affair. Do I hear your moral indignation about this Jennie?

 

Their father (her BH) then died and she invited my H to his funeral and also to the graveside. Do you have any moral indignation about this too?

 

I didn't discover the A until after her BH's death. I informed her oldest son who by then was an adult and also the BH's parents (in the absence of a BH by that time) . The parents were very sympathetic towards me and very unflattering about their newly widowed daughter-in-law. I think it confirmed their view of her as an unpleasant person.

 

Why do I think that you will reserve your own moral indignation for only my actions in this very tragic situation?

 

And what is it you would have done if someone had informed you about your parent's sex life? What he did was take up with his mother her betrayal of her husband and children - not with me the mere messenger, and victim of her disgraceful actions.

 

I don't know whether it is morals or not, but generally children (whether adult or not) are more or less disgusted to hear details about their parents' sex life. I think this is to protect us against incest. We do not want to consider our parents to be sexual beings. And as parents we do not really want to consider our children (adult or not) as sexual beings either.

 

Is this morals? Perhaps. Since it is a moral issue that we do not conduct incest.

 

I know it is recommended on some pro-marriage sites to reveal the affair to everybody. For the BS to reveal because she has a need for support from her friends and relatives is one thing. But for the BS to reveal it, as you did, to people you do not know? What purpose did it serve to you to reveal it to the parents-in-law? Didn't this just burden them? To learn that their newly diseased son had also been betrayed for years by his wife? What child wants to know the details of his parents' sex life?

 

And then the question who was betrayed. A child is not betrayed by his mother's infidelity. She had not promised to be sexually exclusive to her child. If she had, that would have been incestuous.

 

Call it moral indignation if you want, but my opinion is that neither a child nor a parent should be involved in knowing anything about an adult's sex life without the adult himself/herself expressively saying so.

[NoIDidn't]

Trying to CHANGE that "focus" to being about the parent's sex life is just deflection of the REAL ISSUE being brought forward.

 

Yeah, and it sounds like they are basically saying that you are "jealous" that they are having sex with someone else.

[Owl]

Call it moral indignation if you want, but my opinion is that neither a child nor a parent should be involved in knowing anything about an adult's sex life without the adult himself/herself expressively saying so.

 

It sounds to me like you're confusing (or trying to confuse) the difference between being aware that one parent is cheating on/betraying another, and "details" around parental sexuality.

 

I don't think anyone is talking about details or graphic descriptions here, Jennie.

 

Again...the 'focus' is the fact that one parent BETRAYED another.

 

Not graphic details around the actual event of sex.

[NoIDidn't]

I don't know whether it is morals or not, but generally children (whether adult or not) are more or less disgusted to hear details about their parents' sex life. I think this is to protect us against incest. We do not want to consider our parents to be sexual beings. And as parents we do not really want to consider our children (adult or not) as sexual beings either.

 

Is this morals? Perhaps. Since it is a moral issue that we do not conduct incest.

 

I know it is recommended on some pro-marriage sites to reveal the affair to everybody. For the BS to reveal because she has a need for support from her friends and relatives is one thing. But for the BS to reveal it, as you did, to people you do not know? What purpose did it serve to you to reveal it to the parents-in-law? Didn't this just burden them? To learn that their newly diseased son had also been betrayed for years by his wife? What child wants to know the details of his parents' sex life?

 

And then the question who was betrayed. A child is not betrayed by his mother's infidelity. She had not promised to be sexually exclusive to her child. If she had, that would have been incestuous.

 

Call it moral indignation if you want, but my opinion is that neither a child nor a parent should be involved in knowing anything about an adult's sex life without the adult himself/herself expressively saying so.

 

I can't agree with anything said here. Once a person knows about basic reproductive biology, they are well aware of a "sex life". Parents or not. I don't know why you attempt to make a moral argument bringing "incest" into this. Incest isn't just from parent to child. Its sisters and brothers, as well. And that doesn't support your moral argument at all.

 

Its true that no child wants to know the "details" of their parents' sex life. But most are aware of WHO it is that their parent is having sex with when they are married. That was a nice attempt to change the argument/deflect the real issue.

 

And regarding that no one should know about another's sex life without the adult telling them, will it be considered knowing about your child's sex life when she gets pregnant one day (nothing bad, just saying that sexually active people do get pregnant)? I didn't tell my parents a thing about my sex life, yet the existence of my children let's them know that I have one.

 

There is a HUGE difference between knowing the intimate "details" of a person's sex life and knowing that they actually have one. Knowing who the person they are having sex with is NOT a "detail" in the sense that its being used.

[NoIDidn't]

It sounds to me like you're confusing (or trying to confuse) the difference between being aware that one parent is cheating on/betraying another, and "details" around parental sexuality.

 

I don't think anyone is talking about details or graphic descriptions here, Jennie.

 

Again...the 'focus' is the fact that one parent BETRAYED another.

 

Not graphic details around the actual event of sex.

 

Cross posted, but this is exactly what I was saying.

 

I think the attempt to confuse the issue is intentional. It changes the thrust of all arguments to something that IS morally wrong for a parent to do: tell a child about sexual details. And that's not at all what is being spoken about here.

[xxoo]

Call it moral indignation if you want, but my opinion is that neither a child nor a parent should be involved in knowing anything about an adult's sex life without the adult himself/herself expressively saying so.

 

No one wants to know the details of a parent or child's sex acts, but it is normally accepted and expected that we acknowledge our intimate relationships. An expectation of secrecy seems unrealistic and inappropriate.

 

If you don't want your children to know about your intimate partner--what does that say about the choices you are making?

[sadintexas]

Call it moral indignation if you want, but my opinion is that neither a child nor a parent should be involved in knowing anything about an adult's sex life without the adult himself/herself expressively saying so.

 

Ideally you don't share details of anyone's sex life with others, but in an A situation, the rules change. They changed when you guys decided to have an A. When you decide to become a part of someone else's M (and you DO by getting involved with their spouse) then the third person has rights as well. Public outing and embarrassment is just a risk you to take to be with your "love". People being given the opportunity to see your and the WS's true colors (since it's all been a secret before) is just par for the course. Being an unoplogectic OW, I wouldn't think ANYONE knowing of the "love" in an A would be an issue for you.

[Fieldsofgold]

I'm goin to try to write this post as tastefully as possible, so as not to be deleted by those who don't like what I say.

 

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that I am an OW, and I am involved and deeply in love with a man who has a wife and young children. I love this man, and I wish with all my might that he would leave his wife and children for me. If I should be lucky(?) enough for my dream to come true, those kids would certainly know that Daddy is gone because he had an affair with OW. FURTHERMORE, on visitation weekends, said children would be expected to visit, and be nice and polite and obedient to said AP.

 

This scenario happens probably a thousand times a day, all over the world.

 

So . . . If minor kids can be told, and forced to visit with and be polite to the OW, what is so "morally indignant" about telling a grown man about his father?

 

What makes it so awful?

Edited July 23, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[pureinheart]

You read correctly.

 

The OW's sons were both betrayed too by their mother. The older son was a child at the time of the affair and she had the affair with my H while she was pregnant with her younger son, and after he was born he was present on a number of occasions while they were conducting their affair. Do I hear your moral indignation about this Jennie?

 

Their father (her BH) then died and she invited my H to his funeral and also to the graveside. Do you have any moral indignation about this too?

 

I didn't discover the A until after her BH's death. I informed her oldest son who by then was an adult and also the BH's parents (in the absence of a BH by that time) . The parents were very sympathetic towards me and very unflattering about their newly widowed daughter-in-law. I think it confirmed their view of her as an unpleasant person.

 

Why do I think that you will reserve your own moral indignation for only my actions in this very tragic situation?

 

And what is it you would have done if someone had informed you about your parent's sex life? What he did was take up with his mother her betrayal of her husband and children - not with me the mere messenger, and victim of her disgraceful actions.

 

 

So, what was gained by this information? Did anyone benefit?

 

IMO, some things are better left unsaid...I'm sure you had your reasons, although I can't see where this info would benefit anyone.

[Owl]

Where did this come from?

 

JJ's kids do know her intimate partner.

 

And it is wrong (and quite frankly gross) to tell children about your sexual relationship. Also, teenagers don't even want to THINK about their parents having sex.

 

I can't imagine a responsible parent sharing sexual escapades with a child or teenager for that matter. It is inappropriate and they are not developmentally ready for it.

 

Adult issues should remain between adults. They are the only ones capable of handling them.

 

It says that you are making the right choice to not involve children with every issue in your life.

 

EEG

 

Again...this isn't about telling DETAILS about parental sexuality.

 

It's about revealing the fact that one spouse is BETRAYING the other....that one PARENT is betraying the other.

 

And it would be great if adult issues could remain between adults. But see...the flaw in your logic is that it's not only the adults that are impacted by these decisions.

 

I'd agree that a parent shouldn't say "daddy boffed "sheila" in the back of the van". But telling your kids the reason that you're seperating/divorcing is because Daddy was unfaithful to Mommy is a whole different thing.

[Owl]

You're right. It is a different thing.

 

It's called parental alienation. And if the couple divorces and a parent can prove that another parent tried to alienate their R with the child, the custodial parent can lose custody.

 

Telling the children such things has one goal: to turn the children against the other parent.

 

If the adult cannot deal with the infidelity, why in the world would you want to throw that on a child?

 

EEG

 

Hmmm....good luck with that.

 

So you'd rather lie to you children, and let them potentially find out later not only did one spouse betray the other, but that you participated in the deception against them too? Yep...they'll appreciate that alot.

 

I've been posting here (and other sites) for a good few years now...I've not yet once seen anyone mention being successfully charged with parental alienation for stating things like I'd mentioned above. Done WITHOUT going into the graphic details or with any kind of inults or deragatory comments about the other parent...nothing wrong with it.

 

And telling the children the truth about what has happened can ABSOLUTELY have the goal of raising them to be honest adults...hey...maybe even ones who learn to value fidelity and safeguard their own marriages?

 

Remember too...all of this is OF COURSE dependent upon age/maturity levels of the kids involved.

[Owl]

If the adult cannot deal with the infidelity, why in the world would you want to throw that on a child?

 

EEG

 

Excellent point...perhaps a great question to ask the spouse who cheated, ya know?