Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. ~H.G. Wells

[donnamaybe]

Really - where? The posts are about children of various ages as "children" "teenagers" were specifically mentioned...I did see OWL say something about maturity and age dependency.

Teenagers and children are mentioned because AP's are trying to deflect this to a completely different topic.

 

This is the post which sparked this whole thing. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2899499&postcount=17

[sadintexas]

If I as an adult choose to have more than one sexual partner at a time (which often is the case with a WS), I might find that too much information for both my children and my parents.

 

 

I think you're minimizing a bit here. You're talking about voluntary revelation of your own personal choices as a single person.

 

We're talking about a BS who discovers they are indeed a BS. Telling can be a form of therapy, a form of revenge, a means to stopping the A by having the WS become accountable to those he's damaging through exposure.

 

Again, we're talking about two different things. You keep trying to compare it to you as a single person. It doesn't compare.

[xxoo]

Umm...Actually, EEG is correct. Ask any person husband/father who went through a VERY difficult divorce; there's a reason why there are attorneys who specialize in father's rights. Also, ANY family and marraige therapist/counselor will tell you that:

 

1. If the children are not already aware, it's better not to share the infidelity

2. If you do decide to tell, it should be when they are of an "adult" age so that they can understand the problems that infidelity can cause when they are better equipped emotionally to handle it.

 

 

Apparently, there is more than one school of thought on the topic. This is the view of Emily Brown, who has been referenced on LS as an authority on affairs:

 

 

Washington, D.C.: If infidelity led to the breakup of a marriage, should this information be shared with the children in response to their questions? Emily Brown: Yes, the children need some sort of explanation. Little kids don't know what an affair is - they might be told that Mom is spending so much time with Mr. X that Dad is upset. After about age 9 or 10, sometimes earlier, kids know what an affair is. They need honest information, ideally from both parents together, that gives just the basic fact of the affair, and lets the kids know the parents are working on their problems. Kids should not be used as confidantes about one parent's affair or to take sides against the parent having the affair, no matter how furious the betrayed parent is.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/national/infidelity0901.htm

[jennie-jennie]

You would have to ask her what her motives were as I can't speak for her. In my case, if my DD ever asked me and I decided to reveal (once she was an adult) it would only be to show her, by example, that we don't let people mistreat us no matter how much we love them. In a sense, I think she does deserve answers as to why her family broke apart when she was so young. On the other hand, there are other ways to convey the same messages, so I don't really know what I would personally do.

 

Completely different scenario if the child (adult or not) is the one posing the question. And I presume the child is posing the question to his/her own parent, not to the BS of the other involved party.

[complicatedlife]

Teenagers and children are mentioned because AP's are trying to deflect this to a completely different topic.

 

This is the post which sparked this whole thing. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2899499&postcount=17

 

Ok - didn't see that one.

[jennie-jennie]

I think you're minimizing a bit here. You're talking about voluntary revelation of your own personal choices as a single person.

 

We're talking about a BS who discovers they are indeed a BS. Telling can be a form of therapy, a form of revenge, a means to stopping the A by having the WS become accountable to those he's damaging through exposure.

 

Again, we're talking about two different things. You keep trying to compare it to you as a single person. It doesn't compare.

 

All the motivations you mentioned above of the BS seem to be centered around benefits for her/himself, not the benefit of those she/he is telling. Talk about lack of empathy.

[jennie-jennie]

Apparently, there is more than one school of thought on the topic. This is the view of Emily Brown, who has been referenced on LS as an authority on affairs:

 

 

Washington, D.C.: If infidelity led to the breakup of a marriage, should this information be shared with the children in response to their questions? Emily Brown: Yes, the children need some sort of explanation. Little kids don't know what an affair is - they might be told that Mom is spending so much time with Mr. X that Dad is upset. After about age 9 or 10, sometimes earlier, kids know what an affair is. They need honest information, ideally from both parents together, that gives just the basic fact of the affair, and lets the kids know the parents are working on their problems. Kids should not be used as confidantes about one parent's affair or to take sides against the parent having the affair, no matter how furious the betrayed parent is.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/national/infidelity0901.htm

 

Notice that it says "honest information, ideally from both parents together", not from the OW/OM or her/his BS.

[jennie-jennie]

If I as an adult choose to have more than one sexual partner at a time (which often is the case with a WS), I might find that too much information for both my children and my parents.

 

My adult daughter is very sensitive when it comes to discussing my and her father's former relationship. She doesn't want to get involved in any discussions about it. And I certainly am not talking about sexual details here. You should never impose a discussion on a child (whether adult or not) about their parents' relationships.

 

I am not intentionally trying to confuse any issue. In my opinion you are intentionally trying to confuse the issue by saying that I am doing that very thing.

 

I think you're minimizing a bit here. You're talking about voluntary revelation of your own personal choices as a single person.

 

We're talking about a BS who discovers they are indeed a BS. Telling can be a form of therapy, a form of revenge, a means to stopping the A by having the WS become accountable to those he's damaging through exposure.

 

Again, we're talking about two different things. You keep trying to compare it to you as a single person. It doesn't compare.

 

Okay, guess I wasn't making myself clear here. If I as a single person can find that I do not consider it in the best interest of my child's well-being to learn about my personal choices regarding relationships or sexual partners through me, then I certainly do not find it to be in the best interest of my child that someone else (who in this case doesn't even know the adult child) tells her/him.

[sadintexas]

Perhaps the BS does not want her relatives and friends to know she has been betrayed. This could be a way for the OW to get revenge on the BS. I would have been very ashamed if the other women in my exSO's cases would have informed my parents.

 

So the BS needs the additional help of society to destroy the extramarital relationship since obviously the love the WS has for her is not enough in and by itself?

 

It's certainly a possibility. I personally couldn't do that. I intruded on their marriage. She didn't bring me in. To take revenge against the BS would be, IMO, a bit crazy. But, it could certainly happen...has happened. Those are the ones that are frequently referred to as "bunny boilers".

 

MP in an A typically aren't held accountable until the A is exposed. I think if the love was so strong in an A, it wouldn't continue to be an A. Ever heard of interventions? It's to help a person realize they have a problem and help break an addiction. An addiction that is usually formed because the person addicted doesn't have the capability to cope with life as normal people do (mentally/emotionally healthy people that is). It is the same with A's. People in A's avoid conflict. They turn to outside sources instead of dealing with their issues head on. I think AP's in most cases are just that. Nothing more, nothing less.

[jennie-jennie]

Okay, guess I wasn't making myself clear here. If I as a single person can find that I do not consider it in the best interest of my child's well-being to learn about my personal choices regarding relationships or sexual partners through me, then I certainly do not find it to be in the best interest of my child that someone else (who in this case doesn't even know the adult child) tells her/him.

 

Tried to edit, but it was too late:

 

It should not read "single person", because the above applies whether I am single or not. This is how it should have read:

 

Okay, guess I wasn't making myself clear here. If I can find that I do not consider it in the best interest of my child's well-being to learn about my personal choices regarding relationships or sexual partners through me, then I certainly do not find it to be in the best interest of my child that someone else (who in this case doesn't even know the adult child) tells her/him.

[Owl]

So...in an attempt to return this to being on-topic...

 

Was the "moral indignation" felt here about the subject of the affair being brought up to others including family and children of the WS an example of "jealousy" or "empathy"...or both to some degree?

[jennie-jennie]

It's certainly a possibility. I personally couldn't do that. I intruded on their marriage. She didn't bring me in. To take revenge against the BS would be, IMO, a bit crazy. But, it could certainly happen...has happened. Those are the ones that are frequently referred to as "bunny boilers".

 

MP in an A typically aren't held accountable until the A is exposed. I think if the love was so strong in an A, it wouldn't continue to be an A. Ever heard of interventions? It's to help a person realize they have a problem and help break an addiction. An addiction that is usually formed because the person addicted doesn't have the capability to cope with life as normal people do (mentally/emotionally healthy people that is). It is the same with A's. People in A's avoid conflict. They turn to outside sources instead of dealing with their issues head on. I think AP's in most cases are just that. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

What are you saying here, that an AP is an addiction?

 

Sure, I have heard about and seen documentaries about interventions, having been the SO of an alcoholic. I personally find them kind of icky.

[complicatedlife]

Apparently, there is more than one school of thought on the topic. This is the view of Emily Brown, who has been referenced on LS as an authority on affairs:

 

 

Washington, D.C.: If infidelity led to the breakup of a marriage, should this information be shared with the children in response to their questions? Emily Brown: Yes, the children need some sort of explanation. Little kids don't know what an affair is - they might be told that Mom is spending so much time with Mr. X that Dad is upset. After about age 9 or 10, sometimes earlier, kids know what an affair is. They need honest information, ideally from both parents together, that gives just the basic fact of the affair, and lets the kids know the parents are working on their problems. Kids should not be used as confidantes about one parent's affair or to take sides against the parent having the affair, no matter how furious the betrayed parent is.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/national/infidelity0901.htm

 

Hmm...not fond of therapy or advice from social workers as my personal preference for therapy is from a clinical psychologist, a Psy D, or an MFT (marriage and family therapist) if it's specifically marriage/family related...I rate LCSWs a little higher; I THINK Emily Brown is an LCSW- but her specialty is between the marriage partners, particularly with infidelity, not with children. She is also the person who categorizes affairs, not big on that, either - an affair is an affair and I don't think you can categorize male or female affair partners in such guidelines...just my opinion. Here's some info in regards to what I was saying from Sonia Rahel-Ahmadzai, an MFT:

 

" Just how do you talk to children about infidelity if it has happened in your family? It starts with the age of your children and assessing what they know. If children truly are unaware of the infidelity, there is no need for them to know, said Sonia Rahel-Ahmadzai, a licensed marriage and family therapist in Rocklin, Calif. If the children are aware of it they saw it, overheard their parents arguing about it it’s important for parents to sit down and talk about the mistake that was made,” she said."

 

http://www.projo.com/lifebeat/content/lb_kids_and_infidelity_05-03-10_37I9Q1R_v6.289944e.html

[sadintexas]

All the motivations you mentioned above of the BS seem to be centered around benefits for her/himself, not the benefit of those she/he is telling. Talk about lack of empathy.

 

Not necessarily. She's obviously working from an angle of preserving her marriage, but most likely not just for herself. There are children usually involved as well. You're taking someone who has invested her LIFE with this man. She has much more to lose than an OP does.

 

What angle is the OP working from? We lack empathy for the BS, the children from the very beginning by geting involved with a WS for purely selfish reasons.

[jennie-jennie]

So...in an attempt to return this to being on-topic...

 

Was the "moral indignation" felt here about the subject of the affair being brought up to others including family and children of the WS an example of "jealousy" or "empathy"...or both to some degree?

 

OK, so I was trying to sort this out. Is it moral indignation I am feeling? Is it moral indignation when you react to what could be seen as the BS' revenge and selfishness by doing what is hurtful to others?

 

If that is the case, moral indignation in this case obviously isn't about jealousy. It sounds more like empathy with those unnecessary involved to me.

[sadintexas]

What are you saying here, that an AP is an addiction?

 

Sure, I have heard about and seen documentaries about interventions, having been the SO of an alcoholic. I personally find them kind of icky.

 

Yes I think to a large degree the A is an addiction (and I've been an AP so I'm not judging). I think it has less to do with actual love than it does "good feelings" and the ability for the WS to bury his head in the sand regarding issues at home.

[complicatedlife]

...I wouldn't quote an atheist as I think our views on what's moral/immoral may be slightly different. Is that bad?

[donnamaybe]

Notice that it says "honest information, ideally from both parents together", not from the OW/OM or her/his BS.

IDEALLY, which means that is preferred but not necessary, and expecting to get honesty from the guy is a stretch. How many MM/MW tell their spouse they're cheating so they can find someone for themselves and quit wasting their time on a sham of a marriage? Honesty. Yeah.

[jennie-jennie]

Yes I think to a large degree the A is an addiction (and I've been an AP so I'm not judging). I think it has less to do with actual love than it does "good feelings" and the ability for the WS to bury his head in the sand regarding issues at home.

 

You love the person that makes you feel good. (from the teachings of Alberoni) That is the difference between altruistic love and selfish love. That doesn't make it an addiction. That makes it the love that generally takes place between a man and a woman (if heterosexual).

[Owl]

OK, so I was trying to sort this out. Is it moral indignation I am feeling? Is it moral indignation when you react to what could be seen as the BS' revenge and selfishness by doing what is hurtful to others?

 

If that is the case, moral indignation in this case obviously isn't about jealousy. It sounds more like empathy with those unnecessary involved to me.

 

I would say that if you reacted out of a sense that you felt that telling was wrong because it could hurt the kids...but had no stake in the game at all personally...then it was moral indignation out of a sense of empathy for the kids.

 

Which is interesting, as it then disproves 'ole H.G Wells's quote that so many agreed with.

[jennie-jennie]

...I wouldn't quote an atheist as I think our views on what's moral/immoral may be slightly different. Is that bad?

 

Why? I am an atheist, but of course my morals seem to differ from most here. But then again, I have not always been an atheist, and still I had the same morals then as now.

[xxoo]

Notice that it says "honest information, ideally from both parents together", not from the OW/OM or her/his BS.

 

Yes, and I agree. The case in this thread of the BS telling was to an ADULT child, so not relevant to my linked reference.

 

My linked reference was in response to complicatedlife's post about the appropriateness of children knowing at all.

 

Hmm...not fond of therapy or advice from social workers as my personal preference for therapy is from a clinical psychologist, a Psy D, or an MFT (marriage and family therapist) if it's specifically marriage/family related...I rate LCSWs a little higher; I THINK Emily Brown is an LCSW- but her specialty is between the marriage partners, particularly with infidelity, not with children.

 

I chose the Emily Brown quote because I've seen her referenced here as an expert. I had reason to believe posters on this thread respect her opinion.

[sadintexas]

Okay, guess I wasn't making myself clear here. If I as a single person can find that I do not consider it in the best interest of my child's well-being to learn about my personal choices regarding relationships or sexual partners through me, then I certainly do not find it to be in the best interest of my child that someone else (who in this case doesn't even know the adult child) tells her/him.

 

Maybe not. Although I do find it a little hard to reconcile that with your "unapologetic" stance. But every choice we make in life has possible consequences. If we do something we don't want others to know about (children, parents, whomever) then perhaps we're choosing to do something we're ashamed of? Or we know that it will damage the image those particular people have of us?

 

Since my children are young, I will use my parents as examples. Say someone told my parents they knew I was sleeping with two different men. Or hell, that I'd had a threesome, or attended an orgy, or was into some kind of kinky fetish. So what? I'm an adult and can do what I choose to do. I'd have no problem with it (and neither would they). I'm not ashamed of that. I own my choices.

 

If someone told them I was having an A with a MM, I would be ashamed because I know that I made a wrong (in our case immoral) choice in doing so. But the difference is I don't promote myself as unapologetic. I don't want it exposed because I am ashamed that I was involved with a MM. I own that choice, but I don't want it revealed because I am ashamed.

[jennie-jennie]

I would say that if you reacted out of a sense that you felt that telling was wrong because it could hurt the kids...but had no stake in the game at all personally...then it was moral indignation out of a sense of empathy for the kids.

 

Which is interesting, as it then disproves 'ole H.G Wells's quote that so many agreed with.

 

I think Moral indignation is at times jealousy with a halo is more correct. To say it always is is a stretch, but so is to say it never is.

[jennie-jennie]

Yes, and I agree. The case in this thread of the BS telling was to an ADULT child, so not relevant to my linked reference.

 

My linked reference was in response to complicatedlife's post about the appropriateness of children knowing at all.

 

My opinion though is that even adult children should only be informed by their parents, either both or one of them, certainly not by the MOP's BS.