If he's a happily MM, then why is he with me?

[White Flower]

What you are describing are feelings. True love and true intimacy come from healthy, thoughtful choices, and grow with time (and consistency).

 

"in love" feelings and the alleged intimacy that goes with it isn't even really love at all, but simple chemistry designed 2 propagate the species.

 

-ol' 2long

Oh 2long I've been around long enough to know the difference between feelings and true intimacy. I will agree that it grows with time and consistency but who's to say that an A can be a healthier R than a M? Come on now.

 

One of the many reasons a person gets a D is in order to find or be with someone who they can share that kind of intimacy with. Usually, this is well after propagation, romantic love, and plain old feelings as we tend to go through all that with our first spouses.

[White Flower]

Good, we agree!

 

Yay!

Yes. In cases of infidelity, however, (and, sadly, based on my own experience), the "fear" is definitely in the mind of the beholder, and that goes for both the WS and the BS (or the sig others, if they're not married but in an otherwise committed relationship). Judging and blaming are unfor2nately things that people do when they feel hurt or attacked, as a na2ral tendency 2 lash back.

 

Very true and yes very sad. Unfortunately at this stage it is too late to build the intimacy that is desired by one or both parties in the M. At this stage, of course there is going to be blaming and finger-pointing--it is only natural!

 

Intimacy is the ability to bare your soul entirely without fear of losing the other person.

 

I'm starting 2 lose lock here. True intimacy requires being more than a little vulnerable. We don't own our partners, they're free 2 come and go as they please. This is true of marriage as well (though my W insisted it wasn't, when she was trying 2 justify her affair, followed by her desire 2 stay in contact with Rat Meat after it ended). Obviously, it's easier 2 be vulnerable with someone you trust, in addition 2 loving them. Maybe someone who was willing 2 make promises 2 you in front of family and friends, for instance?

I think we actually agree here. I got a little lost when you ever-so-slightly changed the subject about trust in M but that's ok. I like the nickname you picked for the OM!

Intimacy is love. Promises and documents are promises and documents. Separate things. But they don't have 2 be mu2ually exclusive.

Agreed.

When my W and I decided 2 get married, we talked at length about this. She asked me "why do we need a piece of paper 2 be married? Why do we need a wedding, even?" The truth is that we didn't need those things (and it has been argued that they "obviously" made no difference because she had an affair in spite of them), but I told her that I loved her and was perfectly willing and desirous of telling our friends and family that I wanted 2 commit myself 2 her (2 share myself with her, not 2 own her or let her own me). I suppose it's like a dog pissing on his fire hydrant 2 some people, and maybe it started out that way for humans in general.

I don't see M that way at all. In fact, I'm all for it. What I was trying to convey was that intimacy is a very powerful thing and does not need the law to back it up. It just is. If MM and I never saw each other again I know he would be affected by thoughts of me until the day he died. My exH? Not so much. We just didn't have that connection.

 

Stated this way, it sounds like you are saying that it exists in defiance of the "constraints" and legalities.

Maybe I am? It can meekly accompany those blessed restraints and legalities but it can also exist beautifully on its own.

 

Me neither!

Whew! We agree again!

 

 

I don't think we're being illogical at all. Intimacy also requires an ability 2 empathize with others, does it not? Neither the MM or the OW are thinking much about how their selfish behavior is affecting those they promised 2 forsake each other for, are they?

 

-ol' 2long

 

No, he is not being empathetic toward his W even if he thinks he is by staying with her. If she knew the depth of intimacy we shared, and the love he felt/feels for me she may not agree that he is being empathetic by 'choosing to stay'.

 

I felt I displayed a level of empathy toward my exH. Even though our M was failing already we were still living together when I met MM. When my heart became involved, I filed for D. Things were complicated enough and I just couldn't play it out any other way, I had to set him free.

 

I don't believe we can always keep promises like that 2long. I think we should constantly renegotiate our vows and make amendments along the way. I swear if I ever get M again I will put it in writing that our M will be renegotiated yearly or bi-annually because people change, their needs change, and it just makes more sense.

 

Having stated that, I feel it is possible to have intimacy even if we lack empathy for certain people in our lives. I'm sure you empathize with your kids but not neccessarily your neighbor or the clerk at the store. Yes, a spouse is special but oftentimes we just don't have those special feelings for them let alone true intimacy. That level of intimacy is really meant for one other person in your life.

 

My apologies to the OP, it seems we have taken over your thread.

[jennie-jennie]

I have to recycle a previous post of mine.

 

A while ago I bought an "AMAZING" pair of Diamond earrings, I wear them all the time but one thing I would not do is ever ever wear a pair of Cubic Zirconia-Mimo.

 

JJ- you have a special story or at this point I just heart you. Let's not get it twisted here though. This is not the case here. I don't think this MM found "amazing" he's found the flavor of the month. It's obvious that some people play games in A's and dont give a ish about their MM, Kids, W or anyone else involved. Complete waste of effort...

 

I haven't read the entire thread, so you might very well be correct that the OP's situation is different than mine. I object however to the statement that my story in any way would be some kind of "special story". In fact one reason I enjoy reading LS is because it enables me to see the many patterns in which my relationship is similar to other extramarital relationships, especially those which also are relationships with a deep level of connection. It helps me understand my MM and my situation better, so by providing information about my relationship I hope to help others do the same.

Edited August 2, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie do you have a link to these studies or an article about it?

 

I`d be very interested as I seem to be in one of these relationships but have always read that the neurology of romantic love was a temporary thing.

 

I`ve always wondered about this.

 

It is the anthropologist Helen Fisher who has done the studies about brain chemistry and romantic love that I read about.

 

Video Streaming Software

Edited August 2, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[2long]

What I was trying to convey was that intimacy is a very powerful thing and does not need the law to back it up.

 

I agree with this part.

 

It just is.

 

but I can't agree with this part, because intimacy is definitely created between 2 people. If it "just happens" it isn't "real" in the sense that it's feelings-based, rather than being based in making healthy, thoughtful choices.

 

If MM and I never saw each other again I know he would be affected by thoughts of me until the day he died. My exH? Not so much. We just didn't have that connection.

 

Perhaps true. I obviously don't know you or the MM or your xH, but I suspect, based on my own experiences again, that some of why you said what you said is based on how you feel about your relationships now, and some of it is "revisionist his2ry" about your former relationship with your xH. I distinctly remember my W telling me (after d-day, of course) that she never really loved me, we got married 2 young, RM was really the first person she was attracted 2. Now, she'd be truly appalled at those statements.

 

i.e., if she never loved me, why did we get married in the first place? And if she was attracted 2 RM, why didn't she divorce me before starting a relationship with him? ..oh, he was married and unwilling 2 leave his family 2! And why were they unwilling 2 "correct" their mistakes of marrying their spouses in the first place? ...incidentally, RM is divorced, but not of his own choosing. xMrs Meat had enough of him and divorced him 6 years ago. She's still dragging his sorry carcass in2 court over spousal support and therapy for their daughter even 2 this day.

 

This is simple, but not easy: As Dr Phil says "Before you can start another relationship, you have 2 finish this one first". And just as intimacy can exist with or without marriage, following simple common sense "rules" like that can apply 2 treating everyone with respect, whether it's respect for a marriage or a just a couple dating.

 

No, he is not being empathetic toward his W even if he thinks he is by staying with her. If she knew the depth of intimacy we shared, and the love he felt/feels for me she may not agree that he is being empathetic by 'choosing to stay'.

 

Why doesn't she know? Why don't you tell her if he won't? Where's your empathy for her?

 

I felt I displayed a level of empathy toward my exH. Even though our M was failing already we were still living together when I met MM. When my heart became involved, I filed for D. Things were complicated enough and I just couldn't play it out any other way, I had to set him free.

 

I'm glad you did that, though it might have been better for your own emotional well-being if you'd not let yourself get involved with the MM until you and he were divorced from your spouses.

 

I don't believe we can always keep promises like that 2long. I think we should constantly renegotiate our vows and make amendments along the way. I swear if I ever get M again I will put it in writing that our M will be renegotiated yearly or bi-annually because people change, their needs change, and it just makes more sense.

 

I agree with most of this, I think. But I've felt for quite a while now that if I were 2 divorce, I wouldn't get married again. I'm not sure that renegotiating vows and making amendments is a good idea, though. It's changing a contract. Why have a contract if you never intended 2 follow it? People put 2 much emphasis on "needs". Emotional needs not being met are often "blamed" for people having affairs. Nonsense. People have affairs because they don't protect their marriage and their loved ones from their own susceptibility 2 temptation. Attributing infidelity 2 unmet needs is an excuse, not a reason.

 

Yes, a spouse is special but oftentimes we just don't have those special feelings for them let alone true intimacy.

 

The feelings come and go, yes. Sometimes they're more intense than others, yes. In a marriage, this is where the "for better or for worse" kicks in. In a long-term marriage, one can know that the feelings can re2rn (and do) and that they grow with time, making the relationship more solid and less susceptible 2 interference by others.

 

That level of intimacy is really meant for one other person in your life.

 

But intimacy can be created at any time with anyone (provided one is willing 2 be a little vulnerable 2 make it happen). It just isn't smart 2 let it happen when it's not appropriate (like when one of the partners is in a committed relationship with someone else).

 

My apologies to the OP, it seems we have taken over your thread.

 

I'm hoping she can find something useful in this discussion!

 

-ol' 2long

[donnamaybe]

It is not within the power of the OW/OM to set the married person's spouse free. If it was, you can be sure she/he had done it long ago.

It is within your power, and you know it. Tell her. I dare you. But you won't, and you and I both know why.

 

I so wish you would feel good enough to dump him. How can it feel good to have one little piece of him, knowing you aren't the one he would choose?

[donnamaybe]

It turned out he hadn't realized how much there was to be had in a relationship until he experienced it with me. When you know there is so much more out there, it is difficult to be satisfied without it.

So satisfied that he refuses to leave his wife for you? After 5 years?!

[donnamaybe]

When people say, 'he may just be a selfish man' as you state under number 1, they are attaching a quick label that everybody understands as well as waves off. They are dismissed, the subject is dismissed, and there are no real solutions offered except to dump the person. You can believe in wall-crashing all you want, but as long as I live I will hope to find solutions to everything including people who want to change their lives when it seems impossible. This include addicts of every kind, not just SA. If you had no hope for alcoholics then I'm sure you'd be protesting AA meetings in your neighborhood.

 

I know what I'm talking about here.

 

In number 2 you suggest MM seeks to fulfil a self-serving nature. But what is at the core of that nature? What provokes him to overstep the boundaries he knows are there and risks losing everything he has? There is a reason for that, don't just dismiss it. Dismissing it hurts him AND the person who does the dismissing. Typically, addiction is at the core; unless there is a medical diagnosis that makes the person fearless.

 

As for number 3, you ask what makes me think he'll stop cheating if he finds true intimacy? I'll quote Patrick Carnes, PhD, expert on SA, and author of Out of the Shadows:

 

"Intimacy distrupts the addictive cycle".

 

The reason this is brought up in SA books as opposed to books on AA and other addictions is because sex is natural; it is good for us. Therefore, it makes it difficult for the SA to know when he's having sex for the emotional connection or for the fix. If he has found true intimacy, he can tell the difference.

And why is it the OP's job to "fix" this MM? So he gets "fixed" and then realizes he really does love his wife.

 

What a waste of time.

[jennie-jennie]

It is within your power, and you know it. Tell her. I dare you. But you won't, and you and I both know why.

 

I so wish you would feel good enough to dump him. How can it feel good to have one little piece of him, knowing you aren't the one he would choose?

 

I could inform the BS of the extramarital affair, but I can't set her free. The dynamics of the marriage are not within the reach of my power.

 

You are assuming things in your post that I do not agree with. I don't know that my MM would not choose me. In the event of a Dday I think he would try to keep us both since he is not ready to choose and a Dday would not make him ready. If he really had to choose, I do not know who he would choose. I believe it is very, very difficult for him to live without me, but also very, very difficult for him to not live with his family intact.

[JustJoe]

Jen, I love you a lot, but you're wrong. D-days solve ALL affairs, though not to the satisfaction of everyone involved. Somebody is going to be odd-man/woman-out. People can avoid it for years sometimes, but all AP'S know that if they really want to end the A, all they have to do is come clean, and there will be some kind of reckoning. This OP has a history of EMA'S, and so should not be surprised that the WH isn't going to leave his M. With respect, her confusion seems to be self inflicted and a result of the deception and wishful thinking that many OM/OW's fall prey to.

[donnamaybe]

You are assuming things in your post that I do not agree with. I don't know that my MM would not choose me.

You HOPE your MM would choose you because that's what you want. I totally get that. But you are too close to the situation to see it objectively. I see a man who has had five long years to make a decision and has not. That tells me he's happy with the status quo. It also tells me he would stay in his M if forced to choose.

 

I would like for you to receive all that you wish for. I just think you're wishing down the wrong wishing well.

[2sure]

I believe it is very, very difficult for him to live without me, but also very, very difficult for him to not live with his family intact.

 

Absolutely, and he believes it too...probably because it is true. Thats the definition of cake eater. Wants, needs Both.

 

But doesnt want anyone else to have both. And thats OK, as far it goes...but it is the ultimate in selfishness. Which is also fine...but you have to admit its quite a bit more selfish than most people.

 

And hey, if you are ok with that..it works. But...it should be obvious that this type of person when making decisions is never going to consider more than what is best for HIM. I cannot imagine a circumstance that would make a person like this actively choose to give up anything at all.

[jennie-jennie]

Jen, I love you a lot, but you're wrong. D-days solve ALL affairs, though not to the satisfaction of everyone involved. Somebody is going to be odd-man/woman-out. People can avoid it for years sometimes, but all AP'S know that if they really want to end the A, all they have to do is come clean, and there will be some kind of reckoning. This OP has a history of EMA'S, and so should not be surprised that the WH isn't going to leave his M. With respect, her confusion seems to be self inflicted and a result of the deception and wishful thinking that many OM/OW's fall prey to.

 

Joe, I love you too, but I just don't agree with you. In your case you were strong and applied NC, perhaps that is why your strategy worked. I am a member of another OW/OM board, and you would not believe the high number of affairs there where there have been Ddays, and multiple Ddays, and still the extramarital relationship continues as soon as things have calmed down at home.

[jennie-jennie]

You HOPE your MM would choose you because that's what you want. I totally get that. But you are too close to the situation to see it objectively. I see a man who has had five long years to make a decision and has not. That tells me he's happy with the status quo. It also tells me he would stay in his M if forced to choose.

 

I would like for you to receive all that you wish for. I just think you're wishing down the wrong wishing well.

 

I do understand that my MM might not, and perhaps even is likely to, never leave his marriage. But that isn't going to keep me from enjoying our relationship as long as I wish to. The day it does not give me pleasure I will be gone. And that would have been true even if I was married to him. I only stay as long as a man is my primary love interest.

[JustJoe]

I agree with you, sweetie, but after D-day, the deception ends. If the affair(s) continue, at least the BS knows about it. True?

[JustJoe]

BTW, after I forced D-day, I wasn't all that f**king strong, as the A continued off and on for a couple more months, until I had had enough.

[Owl]

BTW, after I forced D-day, I wasn't all that f**king strong, as the A continued off and on for a couple more months, until I had had enough.

 

Exactly.

 

After our d-day, it took about six weeks for NC to completely be established.

 

And I struggled between being strong and being a doormat myself during that time. Somethings I was able to set some serious boundaries and enforced the heck out of them.

 

BUT...it wasn't until I KNEW for sure what I was dealing with that I was able to actually do anything about it. In my case, I got IM logs that 'outed' them. I "suspected" for several weeks, but wanted to trust my wife. There was a couple of 'straws' that finally broke the camel's back for me and resulted in me taking action to get those logs.

 

Jen, from where you're at right now, there's no way at all for you to predict how MM's W would take d-day. She might do nothing...or she might suddenly lay down some serious boundaries and force change one way or another.

 

Sadly...she's deprived of that opportunity until something finally gives her the final straw she needs to have a d-day and take action. Or until someone 'fesses up, and tells her the truth about what's going on.

[Dexter Morgan]

I have been involved with single men, available men, only to be completely disappointed.

 

well when you said that you aren't a bad person, I agreed and said as long as you don't do a repeat later.

 

Then you say this as if it were some justification to be with a married man.

[jennie-jennie]

I agree with you, sweetie, but after D-day, the deception ends. If the affair(s) continue, at least the BS knows about it. True?

 

Often the affair just goes deeper underground, so while the BS is aware that there has been an affair, she/he usually does not know that it is still ongoing.

 

BTW, after I forced D-day, I wasn't all that f**king strong, as the A continued off and on for a couple more months, until I had had enough.

 

What?! I know your MW kept trying to contact you, but I thought you kept your part of NC. Not correct?

 

Oh, I think I get it. It took you a couple of months before you enforced NC? Still, I admire you, very strong of you. I can't see myself being that persistent. When we went NC, I contacted my MM within 24 hours.

[2sunny]

Oh 2long I've been around long enough to know the difference between feelings and true intimacy. I will agree that it grows with time and consistency but who's to say that an A can be a healthier R than a M? Come on now.

 

One of the many reasons a person gets a D is in order to find or be with someone who they can share that kind of intimacy with. Usually, this is well after propagation, romantic love, and plain old feelings as we tend to go through all that with our first spouses.

 

not necessarily true. many times a D happens because one of the spouses just gets sick enough of the crap at home. to understand where that boundary is for another person - is the million dollar question.

 

most stay and stay mainly because the good at least outweighs the bad... or a very firm boundary hasn't yet been crossed that would force it to end.

[2long]

Often the affair just goes deeper underground, so while the BS is aware that there has been an affair, she/he usually does not know that it is still ongoing.

 

This is where the WS and OP are more than just selfish, they're malicious.

 

I don't like judging people, preferring 2 judge behavior and give those behaving badly the benefit of the doubt that they can change their behavior for the better.

 

But this kind of post makes me wonder if some people really are just bad people.

 

-ol' 2long

[Bitterman24/7]

Often the affair just goes deeper underground, so while the BS is aware that there has been an affair, she/he usually does not know that it is still ongoing.

 

:lmao:

 

Please elaborate on this for me, because I don't understand how can an affair go "underground" if it has been exposed to the fullest. Yes, I know that an affair can still continue,but if a BS is aware that there has been an affair, most often they will know if NC has been broken, since BSs are usually on high alert. I just can't seem to grasp the concept that an affair can go "underground.":lmao::lmao:

[2sunny]

:lmao:

 

Please elaborate on this for me, because I don't understand how can an affair go "underground" if it has been exposed to the fullest. Yes, I know that an affair can still continue,but if a BS is aware that there has been an affair, most often they will know if NC has been broken, since BSs are usually on high alert. I just can't seem to grasp the concept that an affair can go "underground.":lmao::lmao:

 

they find alternate ways to communicate - often ones that haven't been used in the past or methods that aren't easily "traceable." they may meet while he has a "business trip." he may go early or extend it longer than it needs to be. at times he may pick a fight with his W before he leaves or return with gifts because he feels guilty for what she doesn't know. that is his guilt.

 

at times - the WS waits until the BS has more trust again - then using that trust to make contact again with the OM/OW. then relying on other means to communicate. other means meaning forms that the BS cannot see or find. they just try to get sneakier about it. try harder to cover their tracks.

 

that's why - often times - you see OW here popping in to say "why is my MM contacting me now?"

 

he has to. he has waited until "the coast is clear" then with the intention to resume his affair with the intention of his wife every finding out, again. he's always banking on his W never finding out.

 

does that help?

[Bitterman24/7]

they find alternate ways to communicate - often ones that haven't been used in the past or methods that aren't easily "traceable." they may meet while he has a "business trip." he may go early or extend it longer than it needs to be. at times he may pick a fight with his W before he leaves or return with gifts because he feels guilty for what she doesn't know. that is his guilt.

 

at times - the WS waits until the BS has more trust again - then using that trust to make contact again with the OM/OW. then relying on other means to communicate. other means meaning forms that the BS cannot see or find. they just try to get sneakier about it. try harder to cover their tracks.

 

that's why - often times - you see OW here popping in to say "why is my MM contacting me now?"

 

he has to. he has waited until "the coast is clear" then with the intention to resume his affair with the intention of his wife every finding out, again. he's always banking on his W never finding out.

 

does that help?

 

Helps a little, but I heard of BSs staying on top of their WSs like butter on bread, to the point of even getting on the same plane so that they could follow them on their "business trips," but hey who am I to ask, because I never took the pleasure of sticking around with my ex-ww, wondering if she's doing it again, since I kicked her to the curb!:lmao:

[Trimmer]

I could inform the BS of the extramarital affair, but I can't set her free. The dynamics of the marriage are not within the reach of my power.

Have you ever noticed that children up to a certain age, if they want to hide from you, they just close their eyes? They figure that if you close your eyes, others can't see you.

 

I agree with you that the act of informing the BS of the truth does not, in itself, free her - that her freedom would come as a result of her own processing of the information, a decision, and a fair amount of work on her part. But without the truth, she doesn't have all the information she deserves to make that informed decision, and in this, you and your MM are in collusion to continue a deception. You are most certainly a part of that dynamic.

 

So not telling her isn't because it's "not within the reach of your power" but because you just don't care. At least own that as a conscious choice, and don't make it sound like it's a choice that's been made for you.

 

The day it does not give me pleasure I will be gone. And that would have been true even if I was married to him. I only stay as long as a man is my primary love interest.

Too bad your MM doesn't have that same "strength" as you, as then he would have done the honorable thing to "set her free", instead of lying to her and withholding the information she could use to do it herself.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Trimmer