***the end game***

[sadintexas]

I don't think they're reported on here frequently and accurately.

 

I read a poll at SI where the question was asked how many M ended in R (reconciliation) and during that week the posts reflected at about 10%; whereas here at LS, it is 'very rare' that As end up in M.

 

In conclusion, compare the D rate with the A rate and do your own math. Don't let a bunch of strangers on the internet tell you the reality of the end game.

 

 

I've been on that site as well when I was a BS and look at how many of them TRY to reconcile after an A. Many aren't successful long term, but they still try. They still pick the M over the AP way more often than not. And when it does eventually fail, it is usually the BS that pulls the plug. So, I don't think the numbers are as skewed as one might like to believe.

 

Where are the MP who don't even let it get as far as a D-day? The ones who know what they want and make a choice before it is made for them? Maybe there's a whole world full of them and they're so happy and troublefree that no one ever knows about them, but I doubt that's very likely. Certainly not enough to balance the scales here.

[Angel1111]

Alas your soon-to-be EX falls into the "holding the bag" category while she awaits MM to leave his family.

 

And then what typically happens is that the tables slowly turn. Since the affair has taken the edge off of a marriage that was probably full of problems, and the MM/MW was emotionally absent (and maybe somewhat phsycally absent) from the marriage during the affair, they begin to forget the bad stuff and at some point remember why they married their spouse in the first place. Then remorse sets in for betraying that person, and they realize how much they value their spouse and family. Suddenly, the BS looks like the innocent party and the OW looks like the enemy. In the meantime, the OW/OM has lost patience with the married person and reality is starting to set in. So they break it off. MM/MW starts spending lots of time with spouse and family again and then, lo and behold, the same old issues and problems arise. Six mos later, the MW/MM is contacting the OW/OM again.... and so the cycle typically goes.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Angel1111

[woinlove]

The new relationship has absolutely nothing to do with the betrayed spouse. I am unsure as to what morphing you are referring to? The morphing of a relationship from an affair to an open one?

 

The BS comes in if one isn't being open and honest with everyone. For example, if one alters the "how we met & got together" story for the children, unless the BS goes along with this, the children are likely to find out they weren't being told the truth.

 

Yes, the morphing is moving from an A based on secrecy and deception (e.g. the "just friends" or "just co-workers") to an open R and the comments were regarding the level of openness and honesty, say compared to a couple who got together when they were both single.

[HappyAtLast]

The BS comes in if one isn't being open and honest with everyone. For example, if one alters the "how we met & got together" story for the children, unless the BS goes along with this, the children are likely to find out they weren't being told the truth.

 

Yes, the morphing is moving from an A based on secrecy and deception (e.g. the "just friends" or "just co-workers") to an open R and the comments were regarding the level of openness and honesty, say compared to a couple who got together when they were both single.

 

I think I understand. I suppose it is nothing that I really gave much thought to since my children were young adults when their mother and I separated. Maybe this morphing is really more relevant when there are children involved. Or, I was not in an affair long enough for it to have been established as one thing needing to morph into another.

[Gfkr2]

A healthy and open relationship takes work. Cultivating a long term relationship between former affair partners is no different than the new relationship that needs to be cultivated between a betrayed spouse and the wandering spouse.

 

The new relationship has absolutely nothing to do with the betrayed spouse. I am unsure as to what morphing you are referring to? The morphing of a relationship from an affair to an open one?

 

Disagree. The tendancy to lie and deceive the BS is indicative of a character flaw that survives divorce. I don't see the lies that

resulted in a marital breakdown being in a seperate little box that closes when a new R with the AP begins.

[Confused4Now]

And then what typically happens is that the tables slowly turn. Since the affair has taken the edge off of a marriage that was probably full of problems, and the MM/MW was emotionally absent (and maybe somewhat phsycally absent) from the marriage during the affair, they begin to forget the bad stuff and at some point remember why they married their spouse in the first place. Then remorse sets in for betraying that person, and they realize how much they value their spouse and family. Suddenly, the BS looks like the innocent party and the OW looks like the enemy. In the meantime, the OW/OM has lost patience with the married person and reality is starting to set in. So they break it off. MM/MW starts spending lots of time with spouse and family again and then, lo and behold, the same old issues and problems arise. Six mos later, the MW/MM is contacting the OW/OM again.... and so the cycle typically goes.

AMEN to this....I 100% agree with this...what is sad is if BS is a abuser...she/he charms their way back and it even gets harder for MM/MW to leave....

[YellowShark]

The tendancy to lie and deceive the BS is indicative of a character flaw that survives divorce. I don't see the lies that resulted in a marital breakdown being in a seperate little box that closes when a new R with the AP begins.

 

I agree. A leopard doesn't change it's spots just because it moves on. Eventually the personality traits that made the person cheat, have an affair, and be deceptive to their BS will reappear.

[jennie-jennie]

In defense of TNYC, she seems to have one of those one-of-a-kind situations. Where her MM is someone from her past, they reunited but now he is M. Correct? I can see the connection, I can see where she is coming from. It may be the case that her MM's nature is not as the average cake eater and may not continue the cycle once he is no longer in his M and in an exclusive R with her. Who knows...

 

Oh, you mean a rekindled relationship. Quite common actually in the world of extramarital relationships.

[HappyAtLast]

Disagree. The tendancy to lie and deceive the BS is indicative of a character flaw that survives divorce. I don't see the lies that

resulted in a marital breakdown being in a seperate little box that closes when a new R with the AP begins.

 

Some marital breakdowns have nothing to do with lies or character flaws and everything to do with the marriage itself. However, in the cases where one simply cheats to cheat, I would tend to agree with you. In those cases, though, the cheater rarely leaves, hence no new relationship is begun.

[HappyAtLast]

I agree. A leopard doesn't change it's spots just because it moves on. Eventually the personality traits that made the person cheat, have an affair, and be deceptive to their BS will reappear.

 

I have been remarried for nearly forty years. This leopard has not even considered cheating. Here's hoping I can continue to keep those personality traits under control .

[YellowShark]

I have been remarried for nearly forty years. This leopard has not even considered cheating. Here's hoping I can continue to keep those personality traits under control .

 

Were you a serial cheater or was your affair a one-off deal? IMHO I think if you were a serial cheater your story today might have been far different.

[woinlove]

I have been remarried for nearly forty years. This leopard has not even considered cheating. Here's hoping I can continue to keep those personality traits under control .

 

Wow, almost 40 years of fidelity and you still have an interest in an infidelity forum. Anyway, 40 years is a long time for any marriage and particularly a second one. Congratulations!

[wheelwright]

Exactly. Looking at it logically, people D every day. When AP give MP whatever it is they're seeking, the MP has no motivation to ever leave or fix the M. The ones who cheat are the ones that rarely leave because they have the best of both worlds. They don't have to suffer through a D and they don't have to suffer through lonliness, working on the M, WORKING ON THEMSELVES or any of the things they would be faced with were they not participating in an A.

 

It's irony at it's finest IMO. The OP wants the MP to leave so bad, but yet by their own actions (having the A) they almost assure the outcome is that they won't have the MP in an open relationship.

 

I'd bet, like myself, almost every person getting involved in an A (where "love" is the motive on the AP's part) believes that their story is different...their relationship with the MP is different. The end game in their minds is to eventually be together. That's why so many AP's make or buy into the MP's excuses like when the child is a little older, when they're in better financial positions, etc., to justify staying in the A. Because that still plays into their end game. Otherwise, they have to face the fact that it is what it is, an A...nothing more, nothing less. The real end game is that they walk away with nothing but heartache but it takes time for AP's to see that's the reality of the situation.

 

If more AP's would take a stand and stop buying into these excuses, more might actually get what they want in the long run. But the longer they stay in the A, the longer the MP stays in the M.

 

I have to say this view of APs speaks of their naivity - a naivity that on the whole is dissolved once one enters LS!

 

But most As happen when people have not been privvy to the woes of OW/OM on these boards.

 

So you fall in love big time. So the AP is (unhappily by all accounts) M. You know divorce isn't so hard these days. AP tells you they have fallen in love with you. That they are considering their options, i.e leaving the M.

 

It seemed crystal clear to me at the time. Unhappy M. Big time new love. It was a no brainer.

 

Unhappy M should have been enough in the first place.

 

We only are having these discussions because we have the hindsight of all the wonderful and hurt people on these boards.

 

Before we get cynical, i.e start seeing A love as a small part of the equation, we just believe in love, pure and simple. Naive, until LS.

 

THEN we find out that all these OTHER people did the soulmates, connection, pain of the under a bus thing. THEN we think oh my, I really went wrong here.

 

It's not about endgame. We know the dice hasn't fallen. But we believed the odds more in our favour, because we believed in love. (And often times we were gaslighted about the M).

[BB07]

Great post WW!

[sadintexas]

Some marital breakdowns have nothing to do with lies or character flaws and everything to do with the marriage itself. However, in the cases where one simply cheats to cheat, I would tend to agree with you. In those cases, though, the cheater rarely leaves, hence no new relationship is begun.

 

True enough...the breakdown of the M may have nothing to do with the A and pre-existed the A; however, the choice of the WS to have an A instead of leaving the M still shows character flaws. Lying and deception were still the choices of the WS despite the possible absence of those in the M prior to the A.

[pureinheart]

When my EX cheated on me I read nearly ever OM/OW thread at Loveshack seeking wisdom. So I thought I would start a thread on it.

 

The common theme I see is this.

 

So many people posting here who are engaged in an affair don't think about the end-game of their affair. They are near-sighted, selfish, and delusional. Either they end up getting hearbroken because the OM/OW cheats on them eventually, or the OM/OW goes back to their betrayed spouse and they are left holding the bag.

 

Then "they" act surprised when the cheating OM/OW - (that they are having the affair with) - betrays them!

 

What are your thoughts?

 

This can happen in any R IMO, all is needed is to take the A and OW/OM out and you have any R...

[desertmoon]

I thought about the "end game": I thought MM would tire of me and disappear and H would tire of his OWs and he and I would grow old as best friends. That did not happen. MM asked me to marry him. I freaked out and broke up with him,still he divorced his wife (divorce had nothing to do with me, you see). Then I told my H I wanted to divorce him (he has OWs, anyway) but he, instead, fought for me and gave up the OW. But I divorced him anyway. A year and half later-and boy, was that a journey!- dMM and I are back with each other...I now know how it is to be truly loved and I love him back!!

[OWoman]

I was responding to OWoman's assertion of having affairs without lies, hiding, part-time affection, etc. I was not implying anything about the relationship between the WS and AP. I was making an observation about an A and the interaction of its participants with the rest of the world, particularly with the BS and the children (if they exist and are old enough to be aware of time spent with parents). But, of course, this spills out into relatives, friends, coworkers and anyone who might inform the BS. Consequently, the "hiding" part.

 

There was none of that. My H did not lie to anyone - our R was perfectly open and I was very much part of his social and extended family life (as his partner). He and his xW lived very separate lives, albeit in the same house at that stage. His kids knew about me, and we communicated. The only one who didn't know was his xW - she told him nothing about her daily life, and he told her nothing about his, so there was no need to lie.

 

Sure, friends, relatives and colleagues knew me (as his partner) and yes, some people did try to tell her, but she chose not to believe them, as she chose not to believe him when he told her.

[Mimolicious]

There was none of that. My H did not lie to anyone - our R was perfectly open and I was very much part of his social and extended family life (as his partner). He and his xW lived very separate lives, albeit in the same house at that stage. His kids knew about me, and we communicated. The only one who didn't know was his xW - she told him nothing about her daily life, and he told her nothing about his, so there was no need to lie.

 

Sure, friends, relatives and colleagues knew me (as his partner) and yes, some people did try to tell her, but she chose not to believe them, as she chose not to believe him when he told her.

 

With all due respect OWoman- then what your H had with his xW was not a R, that was a joke! Sorry. I mean, who really does that? I see where you are coming from when you said there are no lies, calculations, etc in A's. Your scenario falls into the odd not much into the norm.

[HappyAtLast]

Were you a serial cheater or was your affair a one-off deal? IMHO I think if you were a serial cheater your story today might have been far different.

 

Absolutely agree with you on the serial cheater thing. Those folks are a different animal entirely. Most of my posts will disclaim applying to those who are serial cheaters. I had one and only affair in my first marriage.

[HappyAtLast]

True enough...the breakdown of the M may have nothing to do with the A and pre-existed the A; however, the choice of the WS to have an A instead of leaving the M still shows character flaws. Lying and deception were still the choices of the WS despite the possible absence of those in the M prior to the A.

 

I agree that the choice to have an affair prior to leaving a marriage is a bad one. But to say that it shows character flaws is not always true.

 

edited - I am not saying that I do not have character flaws, just that lying and deception are not among them.

[sadintexas]

I agree that the choice to have an affair prior to leaving a marriage is a bad one. But to say that it shows character flaws is not always true.

 

edited - I am not saying that I do not have character flaws, just that lying and deception are not among them.

 

I would tend to agree with you if it was a situation where the MP fell in love with the AP and made the decision to leave the M. Or even made the decision to end the A and work on the M. In most cases we see here though, the MP stays in the M to the detriment of the BS and the AP. They don't work to leave and they don't work to have a better M. They continue to operate in a manner that is deceptive and harmful to all involved until a choice is made for them.

 

ETA: I don't think that cheaters are bad people. They are usually good people that have made bad choices. But when they decide to make it a way of life, it fails to be a single bad decision and becomes more of a deceptive way of life.

Edited August 3, 2010 by sadintexas

[HappyAtLast]

I would tend to agree with you if it was a situation where the MP fell in love with the AP and made the decision to leave the M. Or even made the decision to end the A and work on the M. In most cases we see here though, the MP stays in the M to the detriment of the BS and the AP. They don't work to leave and they don't work to have a better M. They continue to operate in a manner that is deceptive and harmful to all involved until a choice is made for them.

 

ETA: I don't think that cheaters are bad people. They are usually good people that have made bad choices. But when they decide to make it a way of life, it fails to be a single bad decision and becomes more of a deceptive way of life.

 

My opiniont only refers to those who have ended the affair, not to those who continue on with both or whose who go on to engage in further affairs.

[White Flower]

With all due respect OWoman- then what your H had with his xW was not a R, that was a joke! Sorry. I mean, who really does that? I see where you are coming from when you said there are no lies, calculations, etc in A's. Your scenario falls into the odd not much into the norm.

I don't know if my sitch falls into the 'norm' but I didn't have to lie either. My then H and I were having trouble already and had decided soon after I met MM to sleep in another room. He may have sensed something going on, but there was deep trouble in the M already so he simply never asked. He hinted, but never outright asked me so I didn't have to lie.

[Mimolicious]

I don't know if my sitch falls into the 'norm' but I didn't have to lie either. My then H and I were having trouble already and had decided soon after I met MM to sleep in another room. He may have sensed something going on, but there was deep trouble in the M already so he simply never asked. He hinted, but never outright asked me so I didn't have to lie.

 

In order words, you basically had left your M. Not norm.