Doing what is "right"...

[BB07]

I think it is so wrong to assume anything about anyone in the triangle concerning their motives, their intentions or why they choose to stay or choose to leave unless all parties sit down and discuss it as Spark suggested and hey how often is that gonna happen?

 

I sure have had the occasion to learn that even truths can be taken and swayed to suit the purpose of the person telling them to show themselves in a more favorable light. It's just human nature and all of us are guilty of it to a certain extent.

[Mimolicious]

The phrasing of your OP implies that you are looking for objective, universal answers to questions that will always have morally relative, highly-charged answers that will be completely dependent on what horse a particular person has in the race.

 

To some OW, a BW that stays in the marriage is pathetic - because it helps them to minimize the BW, and because the BW stands in the way of what the OW wants.

 

To other BS, that same BW who stays in the marriage is "taking one for the team" in trying to keep the family together for the kids, because they have empathy, having been in that same situation.

 

To some OW, the MM who stays "for the kids" is honoring a "commitment" (this seems to be your premise, yes?) because it helps them see him in a positive way, even as he is clearly betraying another commitment he made on the very same day he was married.

 

To other OW, that same MM who stays "for the kids" is a weakling, who is lying about staying for the kids, because he simply refuses to commit to the OW and leave his BW.

 

Does it really "floor" you that everyone sees things through a filter that allows them to perceive the story of the world around them in a way that gives them what they want or need? Is it really a surprise that virtually nobody can step back and see the world completely objectively, detached from their own personal experiences, biases, and wounds?

 

Good post!

 

There are millions of people who would take a strong stance on their perception in ANY subject, even if it doesn't pertain to their personal life. What may not seem to be logical to one person it is perfectly fit for the next. That's life... not one size fits all.

 

If we all shared the same ideas and principals then the world would be very dull.

 

So if your MM is doing what's "right" and his W is doing what is "right". Is there anyone doing anything wrong in this scenario, then?

 

You sweetheart is depriving his W of finding real happiness with someone that can make her feel like a woman and loved. Just like you feel with you MM. Before being a mother she had this (I hope) and a mother is not all is intended to be. Doesn't she deserve that chance?

 

He is depriving you of being in a stable, healthy and solely exclusive relationship with the person you love. Don't you deserve that?

 

He is depriving his children of transparency because as real as it may seem to be at home, it's an illusion of the home they really deserve to have. I don't know from Adams and I am not saying that they don't function as a real family day and day out because I am not there. Logically and coming from the details that you have shared would you call it "whole" while he is investing himself outside of his family circle?

 

Why is your MM such a powerful force to mandate what is "right" for so many people around him?

 

IMO- if this was my H (and it was once upon a time) F what he thinks is right. If his W does know, obviously her definition of "right" is glued to scriptures, so sad that she is wasting her years. You- you honestly get the best piece of the pie. You know most of the truth and at the end you are the one that has the best shot at making the "right" choices. <=== but that "right" is what is "right" in my eyes. I am just one mind in this universe with a set of principles, yet every mind is a different world.

 

BNB name could have been removed from the quote. Looks like she is being singled out for her opinion. I'm just saying...

[Mimolicious]

My father "did what was right" and stayed in the M until the kids were grown, before leaving to M the woman he loved.

 

It was misguided, but he felt it was right.

 

I wish he hadn't.

 

(hug) This is exactly what I was talking about on my post. Offering children tranparency and not being a FRAUD!

 

How convenient to look like "super dad" and the greatest role model for a child, yet you have your separate agenda as a man. Some may think that they both don't need to interwind, ok... fool yourselves! Then you have children who grow to feel like OWoman. At the end, your imagine, courage, loyalty, etc is shattered rather than chipped.

 

A men's worth is measured by what he does when no one is watching- It's even a passage to bound by honor in the military.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

His marriage is sacrificing, his chilfren are sacrificing, you are sacrificing and even your own children are, to meet this man's agenda.

 

I'm unsure though how you know what his wife knows,thinks and feels.

 

But to answer your question, it is considered DIShonorable because it involves lying, and hurting others in order to achieve his FALSE sense of honor. If you don't believe me ask his wife.

[donnamaybe]

Any activity that involves lying and sneaking around holds nothing even remotely close to honor.

[JustJoe]

FA, With all due respect, I know of no marriage vows that mention children. The marriage compact is between two adults. In your case, the BS is abiding by ALL of the vows she made, but your MM is only abiding by those parts that suit him. He has broken his word to his wife, lied, and betrayed, yet you think he is somehow "noble and honorable",because he still is willing to be a parent? Adolf Hitler loved animals, does that make him more honorable? Broken vows are signs of moral failure, you may not want to believe it, but it's true.

[In_Repair]

In my case the BW knows of the affair. Knows it is ongoing, and also chooses to maintain the marriage for now.

 

 

Then your affair is over. She now allows her husband an "open" marriage, and overlooks his woman on the side. Maybe she thinks like every other fan of open marriages: "it's all good, because I know who they are coming home to/with tonight."

[Owl]

Then your affair is over. She now allows her husband an "open" marriage, and overlooks his woman on the side. Maybe she thinks like every other fan of open marriages: "it's all good, because I know who they are coming home to/with tonight."

 

That was my thought as well.

 

If she really and truly knows about the affair...and intentionally does nothing about it...it may well be that she IS ok with it. She's comfortable that he's not going anywhere, and comfortable with the idea of an "open marriage".

 

Granted...it's not a common response for MOST BS's...but it fits FA's description of her lack of response to the affair.

[BB07]

In my case the BW knows of the affair. Knows it is ongoing, and also chooses to maintain the marriage for now.

 

She is doing what she feels is "right", he is doing what he feels is right by maintaining the marriage relationship. How is that any different? Both know the marriage is unhelathy and unhappy, both maintain it for the same reason, because they have a child that is still in the family home and not of legal age.

 

And who said that the BW in the original story that the post came from was "working towards fixing" anything? It was simply stated that she knows of the ongoing affair and stays in the marriage. I think perhaps you are presuming much here.

 

Edited to add that I am not a "spare" anything, and to refer to me as such is insulting, please do not do it again. Thanks.

 

FA......I'm curious and of course you can decline to answer my questions.

 

What exactly does she know? Does she really know the whole story, that he is loving you and just staying with her for the kids sake? Or is it some watered down version of that, that he thinks would be less hurtful to her? Do they share a bed? Does he go through the motions of being a good husband with her when he is there?

 

If she really does know the whole story, then why not everyone get together and bring it out in the open?

[JustJoe]

Very well said, BBo7. If everyone knows everything, then where is there any issue(s)?

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Does she also know that some part of their income goes toward paying some of your bills, buying gifts for your children, and helping you financially, even if you don't "ask for help"?

[lolalove]

I'm a divorced dad. Does your MM think I am NOT raising my children? That I have abandoned them in some way? That I am not living up to my obligation to raise them?

 

Thank you for this. I find divorced dads that raise their children without any secrets to be more honorable than married dads who prefer children have the illusion of a faithful husband.

[awkward]

Does she really know or do you think she should know? Two different things.

 

If he still lies to her about you then one can assume that he is trying to convince her otherwise. If she really knows then it seems more like an open marriage.

 

Either she really knows that your relationship continues or she doesn't really know because he's convinced her it is over. How do you know for sure what she knows if she isn't the one telling you?

 

 

My sweetheart stays in his marriage because he feels he is obligated to see through the raising of all of his children. He is doing what he considers right and honorable by seeing through that commitment despite what he really wants to do. Why is that not also considered honorable?

 

IMO it's because he is your sweetheart. Does he consider it right and honorable to cheat on his spouse?

Edited August 2, 2010 by awkward

[Mimolicious]

Thank you for this. I find divorced dads that raise their children without any secrets to be more honorable than married dads who prefer children have the illusion of a faithful husband.

 

You know, this actually hits home for me.

My son is asking his dad questions, now that he is getting older and realizes what has happened. My xH continues to tell him lie after lie because he shouldn't be told the truth. This past weekend my son asked him a question that he chose to complete fabricate a huge lie. My boy is far from stupid and called him out on it. Told him to stop being such a liar and to tell him the truth. That he wanted and deserves to know the truth but from him. Broke my heart to see how sad and upset this made my boy. I would give anything in life to spare his little heart this kind of feeling. I can just imagine how betrayed he also feels.

Next thing, my phone rang with my xH talking extra saying that I was putting my son up to it. CLASSIC!

If that would be the case, then my son wouldn't be asking for the truth.

 

Sorry to t/j. Sometimes even way after the charade is over, the drama is really not. FML!

[lolalove]

You know, this actually hits home for me.

My son is asking his dad questions, now that he is getting older and realizes what has happened. My xH continues to tell him lie after lie because he shouldn't be told the truth. This past weekend my son asked him a question that he chose to complete fabricate a huge lie. My boy is far from stupid and called him out on it. Told him to stop being such a liar and to tell him the truth. That he wanted and deserves to know the truth but from him. Broke my heart to see how sad and upset this made my boy. I would give anything in life to spare his little heart this kind of feeling. I can just imagine how betrayed he also feels.

Next thing, my phone rang with my xH talking extra saying that I was putting my son up to it. CLASSIC!

If that would be the case, then my son wouldn't be asking for the truth.

 

Sorry to t/j. Sometimes even way after the charade is over, the drama is really not. FML!

 

You're so right. Kids aren't stupid. They certaintly don't deserve to be lied to and betrayed. I'm sorry you're going through this, and I'm sorry you have see your son's heart broken. There is no worse feeling.

[GreenEyedLady]

That was my thought as well.

 

If she really and truly knows about the affair...and intentionally does nothing about it...it may well be that she IS ok with it. She's comfortable that he's not going anywhere, and comfortable with the idea of an "open marriage".

 

Granted...it's not a common response for MOST BS's...but it fits FA's description of her lack of response to the affair.

 

Well then, if the BS is "all good with it," then perhaps those at LS should get off FA's back about her relationship with MM.

 

Then what is dishonorable about it at all? It's perfectly honorable for all parties.

 

Right?

 

GEL

[GreenEyedLady]

He is doing what he considers right and honorable by seeing through that commitment despite what he really wants to do. Why is that not also considered honorable?

 

I think that the quote does have validity. And I don't know anyone who is perfect. Most people are just doing the best that they can. Some people have coping skills that end up hurting others. Some are scared.

 

And some are faced with a situation and they pick what they perceive to be best decision for the moment.

 

But honor is subjective. If a man or woman has committed adultery, does that mean that they are forever without honor? If their spouse forgives them, should not everyone else? If they cure cancer or do other good works, are they still dishonorable?

 

I believe that all people fall short. All people can be redeemed. I don't think that anyone thinks that infidelity is fun and harmless.

 

I don't think that anyone else's opinion matters as much as those we love. So who really cares if someone thinks your sweetheart is dishonorable? There are plenty of posts that "dishonor" certain posters by the words and spite they spew. And it comes from a place of hurt and bitterness. Is that honorable?

 

And some posters may be right. But it doesn't matter because what is "right" for one person, is not right for another.

 

Infidelity happens. It is a fact of life. And whether or not it's honorable or not, isn't going to stop it.

 

GEL

[SidLyon]

Well then, if the BS is "all good with it," then perhaps those at LS should get off FA's back about her relationship with MM.

 

Then what is dishonorable about it at all? It's perfectly honorable for all parties.

 

Right?

 

GEL

 

I think you would be correct GEL if the BS is really OK with it.

 

The problem is that FA gives ambiguous and mixed messages about this and is sometimes evasive about it. On the one hand FA says the BW knows about the A, but when pressed she admits that the husband continues to gaslight the BW and deny.

 

We can only go by what is posted here and the conclusion many of us have drawn is that the MM is behaving dishonorably and continues to deceive his wife. FA seems to think that the BW has enough info and ought to know. As I know myself from sad experience, it is easy even for an intelligent woman to be gaslighted by her husband. Especially when he professed to love and care for me.

[SidLyon]

I think that the quote does have validity. And I don't know anyone who is perfect. Most people are just doing the best that they can. Some people have coping skills that end up hurting others. Some are scared.

 

And some are faced with a situation and they pick what they perceive to be best decision for the moment.

 

But honor is subjective. If a man or woman has committed adultery, does that mean that they are forever without honor? If their spouse forgives them, should not everyone else? If they cure cancer or do other good works, are they still dishonorable?

 

I believe that all people fall short. All people can be redeemed. I don't think that anyone thinks that infidelity is fun and harmless.

 

I don't think that anyone else's opinion matters as much as those we love. So who really cares if someone thinks your sweetheart is dishonorable? There are plenty of posts that "dishonor" certain posters by the words and spite they spew. And it comes from a place of hurt and bitterness. Is that honorable?

 

And some posters may be right. But it doesn't matter because what is "right" for one person, is not right for another.

 

Infidelity happens. It is a fact of life. And whether or not it's honorable or not, isn't going to stop it.

 

GEL

 

I agree the "dishonourable" label is one which people should be able to shed. It shouldn't be a badge of dishonour forever.

 

However while one is engaging in the said dishonourable behaviour it's much harder for anyone to perceive honour especially if the dishonourable and supposed honourable behaviour are so closely linked. When one is both deceiving the family but also staying in an unhappy marriage for the sake of the family it is really hard to ignore the dishonourable behavior while focusing solely on the honourable behaviour.

 

As an insider looking in I see that F/Angel really wants to see the good in her MM and it appears that she struggles with the dishonourable aspects of what he does. I assume that if only we (ie LS posters) could see it too then she would feel much more comfortable with it.

 

Once a BW has an inkling that there is something going on (infidelity-wise) then the WH really does have to work that much harder to persuade the BW that an A is not happening. Blind trust is no longer there. It is almost certain that F/Angel's MM tries to convince his wife that he loves only her.

 

The alternative is that the BW now accepts the status quo (ie the A with F/Angel) in which case there seems no obvious reason to keep it secret from the BW especially as it seems everyone else knows. From what F/Angel has written it doesn't seem this is the case though. I'm not sure as I haven't been keeping up.

[2sunny]

so in this case the MM and BS both know the cheating is out on the table...

 

so it seems YOU are the only one being short changed here, hmmmm.

 

they are doing exactly what they both want and will only change it when it's convenient for them. how is that at all helpful to you - in the long run?

[lolalove]

I think that the quote does have validity. And I don't know anyone who is perfect. Most people are just doing the best that they can. Some people have coping skills that end up hurting others. Some are scared.

 

And some are faced with a situation and they pick what they perceive to be best decision for the moment.

 

But honor is subjective. If a man or woman has committed adultery, does that mean that they are forever without honor? If their spouse forgives them, should not everyone else? If they cure cancer or do other good works, are they still dishonorable?

 

I believe that all people fall short. All people can be redeemed. I don't think that anyone thinks that infidelity is fun and harmless.

 

I don't think that anyone else's opinion matters as much as those we love. So who really cares if someone thinks your sweetheart is dishonorable? There are plenty of posts that "dishonor" certain posters by the words and spite they spew. And it comes from a place of hurt and bitterness. Is that honorable?

 

And some posters may be right. But it doesn't matter because what is "right" for one person, is not right for another.

 

Infidelity happens. It is a fact of life. And whether or not it's honorable or not, isn't going to stop it.

 

GEL

 

Sounds like a bunch of excuses for not being honorable. I don't think honor is subjective. You honor your spouse by keeping your vows when you got married. The dishonor in cheating on your spouse shoudn't be compared to spewing words in a discussion forum. Hardly the same. I agree with you that just because someone does something dishonorable doesn't mean they are that way forever. As soon as they stop being dishonorable, they can choose to be honorable.

[donnamaybe]

Well then, if the BS is "all good with it," then perhaps those at LS should get off FA's back about her relationship with MM.

Who knows if she is "all good with it?" It's not even certain she knows the sneaking around that's going on behind her back. It's a mere assumption.

[Spark1111]

I will say this over and over and over again.

 

Developing feelings for another, while painful, is a fact of human existence.

 

Forget the vows.....

 

Lying and deceiving another to act on those feeling, in secret, is what is so dishonorable.

 

Children, finances, next year, blah, blah, blah, are all cowardly justifications to engage the object of your affections to KEEP the relationship secret from another.

 

You aid and abet in the lie for your own selfish gain, whether it be love, passion, less loneliness, the promise of a future together.

 

And by doing so, you too are less than honorable, IMHO.

[Fallen Angel]

Am I the only one to smell the reek of hypocrisy on this thread? Participating in an affair is not honorable, period. So before one shines a light of "dishonerability" on someone, perhaps they should first shine it upon themselves.

 

I will say this over and over and over again.

 

Developing feelings for another, while painful, is a fact of human existence.

 

Forget the vows.....

 

Lying and deceiving another to act on those feeling, in secret, is what is so dishonorable.

 

Children, finances, next year, blah, blah, blah, are all cowardly justifications to engage the object of your affections to KEEP the relationship secret from another.

 

You aid and abet in the lie for your own selfish gain, whether it be love, passion, less loneliness, the promise of a future together.

 

And by doing so, you too are less than honorable, IMHO.

 

I did not ask either of you if you thought I was being honourable or not, so this would fall under the category of being a personal attack. I will ignore this as well, as you both, too, are capable of much more rational thought.

 

My father "did what was right" and stayed in the M until the kids were grown, before leaving to M the woman he loved.

 

It was misguided, but he felt it was right.

 

I wish he hadn't.

 

I am sorry that you were hurt by this as a child. I have spoken to my sweetheart about how this will eventually affect his children when it comes out and how much more angry and hurt they will be than if he were to simply divorce now. But he is convinced that he is doing the right thing. *shrug*

 

Ive seen it. A BS who is aware of cheating and stays. And it is often for the same reason that the WS stays. For the kids, for the family.

 

The WS feels that this phase will end and that its worth waiting for. The WS often feels that in the end things will turn out the way they are supposed too. The WS thinks that sacrificing this period of the marriage to keep her family together is worth it. They aren't fooling themselves and know its a risk. They are not necessarily being doormats either, just realistic. They may even know that despite this period, their spouse will not leave , and for whatever reason...they look the other way. And I didnt do it ...but I dont think a BS would stay, unless they KNEW what the end result would be.

 

It shows some integrity in that they are not lying to themselves. They make themselves happier in other ways. They are not betraying anyone.

 

In my opinion if they are staying in an unhappy marriage for the sake of their children, they are betraying someone. Themselves.

 

As to knowing what the end result will be, she knows the end result will be that her child will have an intact family unit until that child is of age.

 

Then your affair is over. She now allows her husband an "open" marriage, and overlooks his woman on the side. Maybe she thinks like every other fan of open marriages: "it's all good, because I know who they are coming home to/with tonight."

 

Yes, he goes to his house, but she knows that his heart is elsewhere. It is more "it is all good because he is paying the bills,maintaining the appearance of a nuclear family unit and parenting his child" rather than "it's all good, because I know who they are coming home to/with tonight."

 

FA......I'm curious and of course you can decline to answer my questions.

 

What exactly does she know? Does she really know the whole story, that he is loving you and just staying with her for the kids sake? Or is it some watered down version of that, that he thinks would be less hurtful to her? Do they share a bed? Does he go through the motions of being a good husband with her when he is there?

 

If she really does know the whole story, then why not everyone get together and bring it out in the open?

 

She knows that he is in a long term relationship with another woman. Yes. No. No. That depends on what you think "the motions of a being a good husband" are. He is part of a family unit, acts accordingly as father/grandfather etc.

 

There is a big difference between knowing that it is happening and wanting to sit down and discuss the details. My sweetheart and I are discreet enough as to not flaunt things and disrupt the "family" picture that is important to her to maintain for her child.

 

Does she also know that some part of their income goes toward paying some of your bills, buying gifts for your children, and helping you financially, even if you don't "ask for help"?

 

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

But so as not to be considered unwilling to answer questions and harrassed about it as another poster is experiencing on another thread, I would have to say that I assume that she is aware that he spends money on our relationship. She is certainly aware that he spends too much on his phone bill (he needs a better plan *shrug*) and one would assume that she would realize that he buys me gifts for ceratin occasions (birthday, Christmas, Valentine's Day etc.) as we are in a long term relationship and that is what people in long term relationships do.

 

I think you would be correct GEL if the BS is really OK with it.

 

The problem is that FA gives ambiguous and mixed messages about this and is sometimes evasive about it. On the one hand FA says the BW knows about the A, but when pressed she admits that the husband continues to gaslight the BW and deny.

 

We can only go by what is posted here and the conclusion many of us have drawn is that the MM is behaving dishonorably and continues to deceive his wife. FA seems to think that the BW has enough info and ought to know. As I know myself from sad experience, it is easy even for an intelligent woman to be gaslighted by her husband. Especially when he professed to love and care for me.

 

Who knows if she is "all good with it?" It's not even certain she knows the sneaking around that's going on behind her back. It's a mere assumption.

 

There is nothing ambiguous or assuming in what I say, I say she is fully aware of our relationship. It is you who are not reading what i am putting out there. ;)

 

Simply because I do not feel the need to indulge you in all the minutiae of my relationship or how it is unfolding does not mean that I am speaking halftruths or untruths.

 

so in this case the MM and BS both know the cheating is out on the table...

 

so it seems YOU are the only one being short changed here, hmmmm.

 

they are doing exactly what they both want and will only change it when it's convenient for them. how is that at all helpful to you - in the long run?

 

I am being shortchanged how exactly? I am getting what I want in my relationship. I am happy. He makes sure that I am getting what I want and need from him, and is also doing what he thinks is right in staying until his child is an adult. (Graduates Highschool) His wife is getting what she wants by being able to keep the family unit intact and holding out the appearance of a happy homelife for her child.

 

It seems to me we are all getting what we want and need. *shrug*

Edited August 5, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[2sunny]

I

am being shortchanged how exactly? I am getting what I want in my relationship. I am happy. He makes sure that I am getting what I want and need from him, and is also doing what he thinks is right in staying until his child is an adult. (Graduates Highschool) His wife is getting what she wants by being able to keep the family unit intact and holding out the appearance of a happy homelife for her child.

 

It seems to me we are all getting what we want and need. *shrug*

 

i would never presume to understand how and what exactly you get that seems to make you happy.

 

the only thing that confuses me is the SHRUG at the end of your post. why shrug? most people who shrug are using it to contradict the info just revealed.

 

why this contradiction IF you are actually getting EVERYTHING you say you want/need?