Doing what is "right"...

[Fallen Angel]

What commitment? He broke it. It no longer exists for him.

 

His commitment to his "family". When they decided to have children he feels he committed to being a fulltime father to them.

 

You cannot rightfully say he is committed to her when he is not.

 

You are right, he is not committed to her, but to "the family".

 

What I do NOT understand is, if the W knows, why doesn't she and the OW directly speak and make arrangements - after all, she knows and clearly doesn't care. Yet that never happens - just like in your case FA - why haven't you knocked on his front door? Or spoken directly to her?

IT seems very suspicious to me that the W knows, and everyone knows about you, but you cannot, especially after all these years, have an amicable lunch. Maybe you could babysit his kids while she dates?

 

First, their children are almost all grown. No need to babysit. Secondly, as I stated previously, there is a huge difference between knowing and wanting to have lunch with the OW.

 

And, last I heard, you hadn't met his kids yet (forgive me if I get you confused - been so long since and update from you). Why not (if Im wrong, then that's clearly not a valid question).

 

No, I have not met his children, as his child who is still underage at this time is the reason behind him staying in the family home and maintaining the appearance of "family". Introducing me to that child would be counterproductive for both his and her purpose of maintaining the picture of intact family, would it not?

 

See where I'm going? Its a non-sequitir in my book. Seems like it would be much easier to lay out the ground rules face-to-face ya know?

 

 

Again, knwoing does not mean she is thrilled about it, simply that she knows and has accepted that it is what it is.

 

I'm a divorced dad. Does your MM think I am NOT raising my children? That I have abandoned them in some way? That I am not living up to my obligation to raise them?

 

He feels as though it is okay for some people, but not for him. His job requires him to travel often, and be on call anytime to be sent away for sometimes weeks at a time. If he were to divorce today, it would be very difficult for him to have regularly scheduled visitation, just as it is nearly impossible for him to schedule in school events, sporting events, and even holidays. His time with his child is very limited at best now, and would be much more so were he not to live under the same roof, so that at least they have some down-time together occasionally.

 

I think that you would feel the same if your job required you to be able to make no planned visits with your children, and so only could have spur of the moment time with them, that would then be dictated as to if it was permissible or not by a former spouse.

 

This was a topic I spent more than a few IC session on, reading the literature (the long term studies comparing nuclear to non-nuclear households) - results of said studies: no statistical difference in the "success" of the children. Ask an IC or phone your local psychology dept (at a university) and I'm sure they would provide you studies too.

 

I happen to agree, but I do see his point and I am willing to maintain our relationship as it stands until such time as his child has graduated from highschool.

 

Because he broke the commitment. That's why. He changed it and didn't allow his W the luxury of the same. However, since she knows, there shouldn't be a problem of you two meeting. I alluded to it above FA, I wonder how much better it could be for everyone to have a sit down, hash out some rules and begin to cooperate - you know, so the W can have a life too (dating I mean).

 

He has said many times that his wife is free to date if she wishes, so long as she, too, keeps it from the eyes of the child who is still living at home. *shrug* He has said many times that he hopes she finds someone that she can be happy with, but from what I am told (by another source) she has no desire to date anyone. She simply wishes to continue on the way things are today. Perhaps if she meets someone she likes that will change.

[Fallen Angel]

I

 

i would never presume to understand how and what exactly you get that seems to make you happy.

 

the only thing that confuses me is the SHRUG at the end of your post. why shrug? most people who shrug are using it to contradict the info just revealed.

 

why this contradiction IF you are actually getting EVERYTHING you say you want/need?

 

A shrug is not, to me, an indicator of a contradiction. Perhaps we were raised in different cultures?

 

To me it simply means "So, why is this an issue?" in this context.

[califnan]

I can't believe you are so determined to break up this marriage.

 

By your accounts, his wife is just a decent woman - who is not even looking outside of her marriage for a husband relationship. This is not all about their remaining underage child.

[Fallen Angel]

I can't believe you are so determined to break up this marriage.

 

By your accounts, his wife is just a decent woman - who is not even looking outside of her marriage for a husband relationship. This is not all about their remaining underage child.

 

I am incapable of breaking up a marriage. They have jointly come to a place in their marriage where there was room for me in his life. They destroyed their own marriage. A strong and healthy marriage has no room for a third party.

 

Please do not project your anger for your exhusband's wife at me. It is personally attacking and insulting.

[Snowflower]

 

 

Yes, he goes to his house, but she knows that his heart is elsewhere. It is more "it is all good because he is paying the bills,maintaining the appearance of a nuclear family unit and parenting his child" rather than "it's all good, because I know who they are coming home to/with tonight."

 

 

 

She knows that he is in a long term relationship with another woman. Yes. No. No. That depends on what you think "the motions of a being a good husband" are. He is part of a family unit, acts accordingly as father/grandfather etc.

 

There is a big difference between knowing that it is happening and wanting to sit down and discuss the details. My sweetheart and I are discreet enough as to not flaunt things and disrupt the "family" picture that is important to her to maintain for her child.

 

 

And maybe this BW, like many OW, simply wants to believe in the man who they love. Perhaps he has told her half-truths or has deliberately misled her.

 

I doubt that she is just hanging around for her almost grown child while her H gives his time, affection and resources to another woman. Gimme a break...there is more than meet the eye here.

[Fallen Angel]

And maybe this BW, like many OW, simply wants to believe in the man who they love. Perhaps he has told her half-truths or has deliberately misled her.

 

I doubt that she is just hanging around for her almost grown child while her H gives his time, affection and resources to another woman. Gimme a break...there is more than meet the eye here.

 

Let me again assert that she is fully aware of our relationship. I know this to be fact from sources other than him. I also know what she has said about knowing of our relationship and why she chooses to maintain the status quo for now so long as he is "discreet", again from sources other than him.

[Snowflower]

Let me again assert that she is fully aware of our relationship. I know this to be fact from sources other than him. I also know what she has said about knowing of our relationship and why she chooses to maintain the status quo for now so long as he is "discreet", again from sources other than him.

 

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for explaining; this makes more sense when told like this. This is an unusual "understanding" between spouses. I mean, it used to be that "boys would be boys" and the wife would look the other way but feminism seemed to change that to some extent.

 

I hope you eventually get everything that you want out of this relationship, FA. I mean that.

 

Have a good evening.

[Mimolicious]

Sounds kinda fiction'ish that his W is actually sitting around faking the funk for the kids. Wasting her life away, all under the knowledge that her H is waiting on the youngest to be of age, to basically leave.

 

WHO DOES THAT?????????? What's sad is that her children, in no time will all be adults and create families of their own. She will become secondary to them, yet she gave up on the chance to be in the type of R that every good woman deserves. Such a shame... (shaking my head)

 

You know FA, I am surprised that you don't feel bad enough for this lady and do something to set her free. I know.... the "kids".

 

After 100s of post about the same- the question of "Does she really know THE TRUTH?" lingers vaguely answered.

 

Yes, he goes to his house, but she knows that his heart is elsewhere. It is more "it is all good because he is paying the bills,maintaining the appearance of a nuclear family unit and parenting his child" rather than "it's all good, because I know who they are coming home to/with tonight."

 

It maybe a combination of all. At the end, life doesn't generate with where a heart may be. This is like punk'n yourself to live with the satisfaction of knowing where his "heart" is and giving up on where "he" should be. I give you credit, my friend. You are patient and selfless.

[D-Lish]

A shrug is not, to me, an indicator of a contradiction. Perhaps we were raised in different cultures?

 

To me it simply means "So, why is this an issue?" in this context.

 

See, your signature is your "*shrug*". You throw it around a lot, and it paints a picture for others about who you are. A shrug isn't an indicator of contradiction, it's a symbol of "I don't give a crap about what you're saying". It's a gesture of insensitivity.

 

Given your situation, I am not surprised that you have had to develop a strong back-bone on this forum. OW face a lot of crap to come out here and tell their story.

[Fallen Angel]

Sounds kinda fiction'ish that his W is actually sitting around faking the funk for the kids. Wasting her life away, all under the knowledge that her H is waiting on the youngest to be of age, to basically leave.

 

WHO DOES THAT?????????? What's sad is that her children, in no time will all be adults and create families of their own. She will become secondary to them, yet she gave up on the chance to be in the type of R that every good woman deserves. Such a shame... (shaking my head)

 

She lives a very full life. Is happy with the life she lives. She has friends, a career, her church, her children, her grandchildren etc etc. She has lived a life separate from her husband for most of their married life due to his career choices.

 

Since his retirement from the military he has chosen a second career that keeps him gone almost as much as his military career did. This separate life is one that seems to have worked for them, so the only thing that has really changed is the addition of me in his life. There were other "other women" before me, it is simply that this time he fell in love and quit looking elsewhere.

 

But the truth of the matter is that I think they have both known for a very long time that this was ineveitable. The career choice he made after his retirement is an indication of such and the fact that she allowed it, willingly and without complaint, after so many years of their marriage having already been spent apart indicates that she likes it just fine that way.

 

You know FA, I am surprised that you don't feel bad enough for this lady and do something to set her free. I know.... the "kids".

 

 

And how exactly would you propose I set her free? She wants to maintain the status quo for the sake of doing what both she and he feel is right for their child. She has been made fully aware of our relationship, and has stated that she will continue with the status quo until the child has graduated. *shrug* My only option is to walk away from a relationship that makes me happy, and that she is apparently okay with as long as it is discreet. Why would I do that when I am completely in love with the man?

 

My leaving him could force him to make a move, in fact I am confident that it would. However, he could in time come to resent the fact that he was unable to do what he considers is ultimately what is best for his child. That in turn could cause him to resent me for forcing it. It would be in essence me saying "it is me or your child." because his time with his child would become so limited by a divorce right now. That is not an ultimatum I am willing to give. I would not wish that on anyone, especially the man that I love, to be faced with having to choose between someone he is in love with and the time he has left to effectively "parent" his child. It is unfair, and I am unwilling to do that as a way of speeding up the inevitable.

 

After 100s of post about the same- the question of "Does she really know THE TRUTH?" lingers vaguely answered.

 

Not vague at all. I am saying with 100 percent certainty that she knows the truth.

 

 

It maybe a combination of all. At the end, life doesn't generate with where a heart may be. This is like punk'n yourself to live with the satisfaction of knowing where his "heart" is and giving up on where "he" should be. I give you credit, my friend. You are patient and selfless.

 

I wouldn't say selfless, I would say that my love for my own children has me fully aware of what I would be asking of him. I could ask for it, and would likely be granted it. But giving up full-time custody of my children is something that despite my love for him, I would be unwilling to do for him, so how can I in good conscience ask him to do it for me?

 

And I am not very patient. LOL. I am much more demanding of what I want and need and require of him than people here seem to think.

 

That whole ten character thing..

[Fallen Angel]

See, your signature is your "*shrug*". You throw it around a lot, and it paints a picture for others about who you are. A shrug isn't an indicator of contradiction, it's a symbol of "I don't give a crap about what you're saying". It's a gesture of insensitivity.

 

Given your situation, I am not surprised that you have had to develop a strong back-bone on this forum. OW face a lot of crap to come out here and tell their story.

 

I suppose it does show up more when I am frustrated by answering the same things over and over and being questioned on my authenticity.

 

It does often mean that I don't give a crap about what is being said AT me. (have you noticed that few speak to me, and many more speak at me? )

 

But in this case it really does indicate my saying "If things are the way I have stated, and I contend that they are, then why does this continue to be an issue?" (So why is this an issue?) But I admit there is a touch of frustration in it as well.

[Mimolicious]

FA- my bad, I was actually confusing you with another LS'er that the W is not aware. (long day).

 

I can relate about the parenting part. This is why I called you selfless. Even though you are happy with your arrangement (and who am I to say different) you are still giving up other things to be in this R. Also, doing the ultimate for your children, is selfless. Not many people are like this (i.e. xH).

 

[D-Lish]

I suppose it does show up more when I am frustrated by answering the same things over and over and being questioned on my authenticity.

 

It does often mean that I don't give a crap about what is being said AT me. (have you noticed that few speak to me, and many more speak at me? )

 

But in this case it really does indicate my saying "If things are the way I have stated, and I contend that they are, then why does this continue to be an issue?" (So why is this an issue?) But I admit there is a touch of frustration in it as well.

 

I hear you, I really do.

I think, that the times I have judged you have come down to the *shrug*. I might not have read everything I should have in a post, and just deemed the shrug to be a dismissive "who cares" about how my actions affect "a-b-c".

 

I guess I forget that you aren't just dealing with OW in this forum- it's open, so it's not always a safe place for you to vent freely. I'm not surprised you've developed the defence mechanism that you have.

 

I'm sure you've gotten to that point where admitting any vulnerability on this forum leaves you open to attacks.

[Fallen Angel]

FA- my bad, I was actually confusing you with another LS'er that the W is not aware. (long day).

 

I can relate about the parenting part. This is why I called you selfless. Even though you are happy with your arrangement (and who am I to say different) you are still giving up other things to be in this R. Also, doing the ultimate for your children, is selfless. Not many people are like this (i.e. xH).

 

 

My children have a father who has chosen to have no interaction with them at all since our divorce. He won legal custody by default because I could not travel half a country away for three days to attend the hearing and the judge waited until only couple of days prior to inform me that I would not be able to participate telephonically as I had in all of the temporary custody hearings and pretrial hearings. (who knew things like that happened to good parents? )

 

As soon as he won he moved and changed his phone number. He has had zero contact with his own children since. But, he doesn't have to pay child support which was his ultimate goal, and I gladly pay the court ordered support to him each month so long as he leaves me and my children alone.

 

My sweetheart is a good man, despite what people here may think of his character, and he very much loves his children. I love mine with all my heart and would do anything I had to do for their happiness. So, I can understand his desire to do the same for his. To expect him to do anything less would be to expect him to be less of the wonderful man I know him to be. Why should I lower my expectations of him, simply to please other people?

 

If I would be unwilling to give up my children for him (which I am unwilling to do, though he would NEVER ask that of me), then why should the same not be expected of him?

 

I see here all the time that women are told to force their hand with their MM. That the true test of his love is if he is willing to divorce for them. I do not happen to agree. There are some men who are capable of being wonderful divorced dads. But there are other men for whom this is not so easily done, so I propose that any woman who is willing to use whether a man is willing to give up being a fulltime parent for them as a litmus test of true love, should be willing to hand over physical custody of their own children to their ex as a sign of their love for their MM as well.

 

As we all know, the courts are much more open to shared custody these days, and a man is very unlikely to not get shared custody, but a woman most generally will get the family home (the home in which the children have been living) and physical custody of the children, at least during the school year. With the father getting every other weekend and assorted holidays. I propose that that simply is insufficient for ME as a parent, and therefore I must find that it is equally insufficient for my sweetheart as a parent as well.

 

Of course there are exceptions to this (as I am one, at least legally), but as stated I believe this type of ,Mother with more custodial time, type of arrangement is most often the case in the United States.

[Fallen Angel]

I hear you, I really do.

I think, that the times I have judged you have come down to the *shrug*. I might not have read everything I should have in a post, and just deemed the shrug to be a dismissive "who cares" about how my actions affect "a-b-c".

 

I guess I forget that you aren't just dealing with OW in this forum- it's open, so it's not always a safe place for you to vent freely. I'm not surprised you've developed the defence mechanism that you have.

 

I'm sure you've gotten to that point where admitting any vulnerability on this forum leaves you open to attacks.

 

Absolutely!! In fact, as an unapologetic OW if I were to come here and post that I was having a "trying" day with my sweetheart and just needed to vent about my relationship being momentarily unhappy, I would get slammed with posts about how I should initiate immediate and permanent NC!!

 

Because after all, an affair relationship is so unlike every other relationship in the world that one bad day is proof of everything he has ever said being a lie, of me being "gaslighted", of him simply being a cake-eater and me being a side piece of a$$.. etc etc ad nauseum.

 

I would be expected to forget three years of wonderful love given to me by this man who is an intregal part of my life. A man who has been my best friend, confidante, partner, lover. I should throw him away because of a small argument, a missed date (because of work), or the fact that he didn't take the garbage out on his way out to work in the morning. Such is the life of an unapologetic OW.

 

I have never seen such suggestions given to a BW who is having a bad day during her attempt at reconciling with her fWH.

 

Fortunately I have made plenty of friends here in whom I can confide privately when I am having just such a day, and they are not of a mind to tell me to throw the baby out with the bath water. But they allow me to vent, and are angry or sad with me, and then are happy with me when my moment has passed and all is right with the world again.

 

I have had to develop a thick skin, which makes me somewhat sad, as I would like to be free to share more of my journey safely here, as sharing one of my bad moments may be helpful to someone else, but such is life.

[Butterfly11]

If I would be unwilling to give up my children for him (which I am unwilling to do, though he would NEVER ask that of me), then why should the same not be expected of him?

 

I see here all the time that women are told to force their hand with their MM. That the true test of his love is if he is willing to divorce for them. I do not happen to agree. There are some men who are capable of being wonderful divorced dads. But there are other men for whom this is not so easily done, so I propose that any woman who is willing to use whether a man is willing to give up being a fulltime parent for them as a litmus test of true love, should be willing to hand over physical custody of their own children to their ex as a sign of their love for their MM as well.

 

 

My SO will tell you it is very difficult to be a divorced dad. He has the standard one day a week and every other weekend but he travels a lot so it is not enough. His kids were the only thing that held him back from getting a D from his then W. I was really surprised when he did leave, granted the A had been discovered, but she was willing to take him back. He reminded me once that he gave up everything for me...his girls, his life as he knew it, his home, his reputation and all for me. He said it in a way like "See, this is how much I love you". I know I couldn't give up the time I spend with my son, but it doesn't make my love any less.

[BB07]

Ahhhhh FA, I do not condemn you, but I can't say I understand it, but yet again I don't have to understand it. It is your life, your choices. I just hope you are not compromising yourself and your wants and needs, that is most important. If you can live with it......then we should accept it.

 

Hugs....

 

BB

[lolalove]

"His time with his child is very limited at best now, and would be much more so were he not to live under the same roof, so that at least they have some down-time together occasionally." -FA

 

FA,

This confuses me. Not assuming anything, just curious. Does the time he spends with you take away the time he could be spending with his child?

I was just thinking about how most dads have a hard enough time spending time with their kids without also giving time to an OW. Maybe your situation is unique. I hope that's the case.

[alexandria35]

Since his retirement from the military he has chosen a second career that keeps him gone almost as much as his military career did. This separate life is one that seems to have worked for them, so the only thing that has really changed is the addition of me in his life. There were other "other women" before me, it is simply that this time he fell in love and quit looking elsewhere.

 

So many contradictions. The whole premise of your affair has been that it has to be this way because your MM simply couldn't bear to be seperated from his child, but from you words above it sounds as though he has been an absent husband and father for much of the marriage anyways, and now he has to spend even more time away from home in order to maintain the affair. Why would it be so difficult to see his child if he lived in a different home? He could move right into the same neighborhood so that he could easily go get his kid whenever he had time. Since the wife apparently knows all and since he is away all the time anyways, it sounds more and more like the only reason he is not divoricing is simply because he doesn't want to.

[Fallen Angel]

"His time with his child is very limited at best now, and would be much more so were he not to live under the same roof, so that at least they have some down-time together occasionally." -FA

 

FA,

This confuses me. Not assuming anything, just curious. Does the time he spends with you take away the time he could be spending with his child?

I was just thinking about how most dads have a hard enough time spending time with their kids without also giving time to an OW. Maybe your situation is unique. I hope that's the case.

 

Yes, sometimes his time with me comes at the expense of time that could be spent with his child. However it is not even remotely the same as the time with his child that would be lost were he to live in a separate household.

 

So many contradictions. The whole premise of your affair has been that it has to be this way because your MM simply couldn't bear to be seperated from his child, but from you words above it sounds as though he has been an absent husband and father for much of the marriage anyways, and now he has to spend even more time away from home in order to maintain the affair. Why would it be so difficult to see his child if he lived in a different home? He could move right into the same neighborhood so that he could easily go get his kid whenever he had time. Since the wife apparently knows all and since he is away all the time anyways, it sounds more and more like the only reason he is not divoricing is simply because he doesn't want to.

 

Or perhaps knowing his wife like he does he knows that were he to burst the bubble of the perception of "happy family" that is so valuable to her things would not be nearly so amicable as far as time she would allow with the child and his schedule (or lack thereof) is such that it would make adhereing to a rigid schedule of visitation next to impossible.

 

But I am sure that no one else in the world has ever experienced anything similar with an ex, right?

 

You must have done a lot of reading in the past few days, to know my back story since you have only so very recently joined LS yet presume to know the "whole premise" of my relationship.

[silverfish]

My children have a father who has chosen to have no interaction with them at all since our divorce. He won legal custody by default because I could not travel half a country away for three days to attend the hearing and the judge waited until only couple of days prior to inform me that I would not be able to participate telephonically as I had in all of the temporary custody hearings and pretrial hearings. (who knew things like that happened to good parents? )

 

As soon as he won he moved and changed his phone number. He has had zero contact with his own children since. But, he doesn't have to pay child support which was his ultimate goal, and I gladly pay the court ordered support to him each month so long as he leaves me and my children alone.

 

My sweetheart is a good man, despite what people here may think of his character, and he very much loves his children. I love mine with all my heart and would do anything I had to do for their happiness. So, I can understand his desire to do the same for his. To expect him to do anything less would be to expect him to be less of the wonderful man I know him to be. Why should I lower my expectations of him, simply to please other people?

 

If I would be unwilling to give up my children for him (which I am unwilling to do, though he would NEVER ask that of me), then why should the same not be expected of him?

 

I see here all the time that women are told to force their hand with their MM. That the true test of his love is if he is willing to divorce for them. I do not happen to agree. There are some men who are capable of being wonderful divorced dads. But there are other men for whom this is not so easily done, so I propose that any woman who is willing to use whether a man is willing to give up being a fulltime parent for them as a litmus test of true love, should be willing to hand over physical custody of their own children to their ex as a sign of their love for their MM as well.

 

As we all know, the courts are much more open to shared custody these days, and a man is very unlikely to not get shared custody, but a woman most generally will get the family home (the home in which the children have been living) and physical custody of the children, at least during the school year. With the father getting every other weekend and assorted holidays. I propose that that simply is insufficient for ME as a parent, and therefore I must find that it is equally insufficient for my sweetheart as a parent as well.

 

Of course there are exceptions to this (as I am one, at least legally), but as stated I believe this type of ,Mother with more custodial time, type of arrangement is most often the case in the United States.

 

FA I understand where you are coming from with this completely, but we all face these dilemmas though when decide on our actions. It sticks in the craw for those of us that have dealt with the consequences of our actions (like you, and others here have).

 

By divorcing, and putting our children through a painful process, it seems unfair that someone can get away with, well, don't want to use the cake word but you get my drift.

 

As an aside....is that right that you pay your exH child support? Sorry if I misunderstood but that seems crazy!

[donnamaybe]

There is nothing ambiguous or assuming in what I say, I say she is fully aware of our relationship. It is you who are not reading what i am putting out there. ;)

 

I'm not questioning your veracity in making the statement that you believe she knows, but from the examples of "evidence" you have given it is VERY clear that you are making an assumption when you state your beliefs on the subject. I understand it makes it easier to believe that, however, so I can't say I blame you for clinging onto that belief.

[donnamaybe]

He has said many times that his wife is free to date if she wishes, so long as she, too, keeps it from the eyes of the child who is still living at home.

And you believe that? Oh, boy.

[Silly_Girl]

Yes, sometimes his time with me comes at the expense of time that could be spent with his child.

 

The thread is titled 'Doing what is "right"'.

 

The above is FAR from 'right'. I think he needs some help to unravel this priority business. Things are shades of grey, but I feel he is doing his best by NO ONE. Kids deserve better.

[donnamaybe]

My children have a father who has chosen to have no interaction with them at all since our divorce. He won legal custody by default because I could not travel half a country away for three days to attend the hearing and the judge waited until only couple of days prior to inform me that I would not be able to participate telephonically as I had in all of the temporary custody hearings and pretrial hearings. (who knew things like that happened to good parents? )

 

As soon as he won he moved and changed his phone number. He has had zero contact with his own children since. But, he doesn't have to pay child support which was his ultimate goal, and I gladly pay the court ordered support to him each month so long as he leaves me and my children alone.

Why doesn't your MM spend some of the money he spends on you to hire you a lawyer to get this taken care of? It would be SO easy and relatively inexpensive given that you have proof that the kids have resided with you all this time. It's just plain WRONG for this to be going on with your family. If not for the money, but for the plain fact of having you legally designated as THE one who takes care of them every day - because that IS what you do.