Monogamy...a controversial POV

[Woggle]

I am starting to believe that it does not work in modern day society.

[theodora]

Sexual non-monogamy with emotional monogamy is something that is contrary to the western model of romantic love.

 

Ah yes. The Western model is exactly what I am questionning though.

 

The truth is that sex with another person doesn't have to be a betrayal. But because we think of it as such, it becomes surrounded by lies and secrecy, wherein lies the true betrayal.

 

I'm a very loyal person. And I'm a pretty level headed person. But in my experience, and from what I see of people and the world around me, when it comes to sex we are all driven by forces which feel very hard to control.

 

And as for this....

 

I guess you haven't met the man who rocks your world then! GEL

 

 

Yeah I have actually. And he's married to someone else. And his W never found out about me and him, and it ended with her never finding out because he never wanted her to, and I never wanted her to. He said he'd never leave her, and he was true to his word. It just left me wondering why it was that he felt the need to lie to her, and cheat on her, when actually he really loves her and wants to be with her. And that made me think, well maybe monogamy isn't the truest and only expression of love and isn't the only medium through which to find security.

 

I dont know. I guess I'm coming at this from a weird angle....

[Chrome Barracuda]

If YOU don't want to be monogamous and faithful than tell your boyfriend or girlfriend and give them the choice, which most people want cause they want their cake and eat it too.

 

Seen it happen too many times here on this damn website.

[YellowShark]

I'm a very loyal person. And I'm a pretty level headed person. But in my experience, and from what I see of people and the world around me, when it comes to sex we are all driven by forces which feel very hard to control.

 

That is where intellect and morality come into play. I have the intellect and morality to stay faithful to my partner. In fact I take pride in it. Chivalry is not dead to me, that is why I find swingers/infidelity abhorrent.

Edited August 3, 2010 by YellowShark
spelling

[LovelyDaze]

That is where intellect and morality come into play. I have the intellect and morality to stay faithful to my partner. In fact I take pride in it. Chivalry is not dead to me, that is why I find swingers/infidelity abhorrent.

 

That's the key. We all have "demons" whether it is alcohol, gambling, hell-even eating too much. No one is going to be able to control their demons but the person themselves. They have to WANT to commit to their SO. They have to WANT to examine the consequences of their actions.

 

I think a lot of people just enjoy "the moment." The heat, the passion, the forbidden fruit is like a high. Then...the come down. They have to deal with the hurt and pain that they help cause later and the operative word is later.

[John Bigboote]

That is where intellect and morality come into play. I have the intellect and morality to stay faithful to my partner. In fact I take pride in it. Chivalry is not dead to me, that is why I find swingers/infidelity abhorrent.

 

I have the intellect to know that your "western model of love" doesn't work for me at all, and the morality to put my actual feelings, needs, and desires (and those of my partner) far above such arbitrary models. I have the morality not to see anyone romantically who subscribes to the model of strict monogamy. And thus my relationships are fully consensual and completely fulfilling, and responsibly nonmonogamous. It's not cheating, because we don't play your game.

[YellowShark]

I have the intellect to know that your "western model of love" doesn't work for me at all, and the morality to put my actual feelings, needs, and desires (and those of my partner) far above such arbitrary models. I have the morality not to see anyone romantically who subscribes to the model of strict monogamy. And thus my relationships are fully consensual and completely fulfilling, and responsibly nonmonogamous. It's not cheating, because we don't play your game.

 

So then sex for you is a mechanistic team sport. That's cool with me. I will never tell you what's right for you. I simply prefer sex to be with someone I love, to be something special and intimate. Guess I am old fashioned that way.

[donnamaybe]

I have the intellect to know that your "western model of love" doesn't work for me at all, and the morality to put my actual feelings, needs, and desires (and those of my partner) far above such arbitrary models. I have the morality not to see anyone romantically who subscribes to the model of strict monogamy. And thus my relationships are fully consensual and completely fulfilling, and responsibly nonmonogamous. It's not cheating, because we don't play your game.

You're right. That is NOT cheating, because everyone's on board. Unfortunately, that's not what normally goes on. In affairs, there is a LOT of lying and sneaking around. Lots of integrity involved in that. NOT!

[John Bigboote]

So then sex for you is a mechanistic team sport. That's cool with me. I will never tell you what's right for you. I simply prefer sex to be with someone I love, to be something special and intimate. Guess I am old fashioned that way.

 

It can be a team sport, but it can also be something special with someone I love, or a bond between friends, or pretty much anything in between.

 

Thank you for promising not to tell me how to conduct my relationships, but that is essentially what you did when you said that you have the morality to remain faithful during a discussion on alternatives to strict monogamy. Morality is a very loaded word. It's possible and fun to be responsible and considerate of one's partner(s) and also nonmonogamous.

[donnamaybe]

It's possible and fun to be responsible and considerate of one's partner(s) and also nonmonogamous.

You're right. It is possible. However, if you read the opening post of this thread you'll see the premise is that the fault behind cheating is not in a person making a promise they don't intend to keep but in the mere fact of the relationship's existence. Hogwash.

 

See, you have chosen the type of relationship you want and have been honest with your partner about it. Nothing wrong with that. You aren't lying to anyone.

[John Bigboote]

You're right. That is NOT cheating, because everyone's on board. Unfortunately, that's not what normally goes on. In affairs, there is a LOT of lying and sneaking around. Lots of integrity involved in that. NOT!

 

Agreed. Illicit affairs suck. Sneaking around sucks.

[YellowShark]

It can be a team sport, but it can also be something special with someone I love, or a bond between friends, or pretty much anything in between.

 

All I am saying is this philosophy/morality is not for me. I am not a "machine" or an "animal" that bangs friends, strangers, or anything else that walks through the door. I relish the intimacy of having one partner at a time and making that experience unique rather than a physical activity like jogging.

[donnamaybe]

All I am saying is this philosophy/morality is not for me. I am not a "machine" or an "animal" that bangs friends, strangers, or anything else that walks through the door. I relish the intimacy of having one partner at a time and making that experience unique rather than a physical activity like jogging.

 

Well, it's not for me either, but we don't have to insult people who have other lifestyles by calling them a machine or an animal.

[YellowShark]

Well, it's not for me either, but we don't have to insult people who have other lifestyles by calling them a machine or an animal.

 

No insult intended. I just think if you're into a lifestyle where sex is just a physical activity like jogging, then you are reducing sex to a mechanistic or animalistic behaviour. That's just my opinion.

[John Bigboote]

However, if you read the opening post of this thread you'll see the premise is that the fault behind cheating is not in a person making a promise they don't intend to keep but in the mere fact of the relationship's existence. Hogwash.

 

I didn't read it that way at all, and probably wouldn't have bothered to respond if I had. I think it's pretty clear that the OP is bemoaning the state of affairs where the only socially accepted form of relationship (or "model of love"... I actually kind of like that phrase!) is strict monogamy, while she recognizes that she herself is not monogamous and doesn't really want to be.

 

The problem is that society condemns all love models that don't include strict monogamy. So she has the choice of either denying who she is, probably making herself and her partner miserable in the process, or defying society. Defying society is scary, and monogamy so ingrained in it that most people don't even realize that there are a myriad of alternatives. If we could discuss possible alternatives openly, then people like the OP might be able to choose different love models that suit them better personally, which would reduce the amount of cheating in the universe by removing the cultural necessity of nonmonogamous people promising monogamy.

[John Bigboote]

No insult intended. I just think if you're into a lifestyle where sex is just a physical activity like jogging, then you are reducing sex to a mechanistic or animalistic behaviour. That's just my opinion.

 

Is jogging a mechanistic or animalistic behaviour?

[donnamaybe]

I didn't read it that way at all, and probably wouldn't have bothered to respond if I had. I think it's pretty clear that the OP is bemoaning the state of affairs where the only socially accepted form of relationship (or "model of love"... I actually kind of like that phrase!) is strict monogamy, while she recognizes that she herself is not monogamous and doesn't really want to be.

 

The problem is that society condemns all love models that don't include strict monogamy. So she has the choice of either denying who she is, probably making herself and her partner miserable in the process, or defying society. Defying society is scary, and monogamy so ingrained in it that most people don't even realize that there are a myriad of alternatives. If we could discuss possible alternatives openly, then people like the OP might be able to choose different love models that suit them better personally, which would reduce the amount of cheating in the universe by removing the cultural necessity of nonmonogamous people promising monogamy.

Oh, I don't think cheaters cheat because they wouldn't mind sharing their spouse. I think they want their partner aaaalllllll to themselves while screwing around behind their backs.

 

In case you hadn't noticed, the sexual revoluation began in the '60s.

[YellowShark]

Is jogging a mechanistic or animalistic behaviour?

 

No. What I said was "a physical activity like jogging." Key words are "a physical activity."

 

What you said was:

 

It can be a team sport, but it can also be something special with someone I love, or a bond between friends, or pretty much anything in between.

 

Therefore if I read you correctly you can have sex without intimacy and simply make it a "a physical activity" like going out for a jog. I am simply wired differently when it comes to sex.

[theodora]

the fault behind cheating is not in a person making a promise they don't intend to keep but in the mere fact of the relationship's existence. Hogwash.

 

 

To be fair to me, I don't think this is quite what I said.

 

I think I mean monogamy is the norm. I mean, I suppose, that it's always been MY expectation. I've felt like I needed it, in order to feel loved.

 

And now I wonder why that is? And I wonder if it's true?

 

And I feel that it isn't necessarily true. I think it might just be part of my social conditioning, that I've been taught to expect fidelity - meaning sexual fidelity - and taught that I should be happy with one man.

 

When now I feel much more like monogamy is simply a convention which I have been conditioned to expect. I've been told it will make me happy. Yet for so many people, that expectation seems to cause the opposite effect.

 

I just mean maybe to be monogamous isn't our natural state?

 

I believe it is intrinsic to the human condition to love, and to have compassion, and to construct societies on moral laws. But the details of those laws can and have changed over the centuries.

 

We live in a somewhat puritanical age when it comes to sex, despite all the internet porn etc.

 

But ...what's internet porn? What's porn? Isn't it just the acceptable face of infidelity?

 

It makes me angry that I live in a world which promotes monogamy, and also condones pornography. That seems to be the greatest of hypocrisies.

[donnamaybe]

To be fair to me, I don't think this is quite what I said.

 

I think I mean monogamy is the norm. I mean, I suppose, that it's always been MY expectation. I've felt like I needed it, in order to feel loved.

 

And now I wonder why that is? And I wonder if it's true?

 

And I feel that it isn't necessarily true. I think it might just be part of my social conditioning, that I've been taught to expect fidelity - meaning sexual fidelity - and taught that I should be happy with one man.

 

When now I feel much more like monogamy is simply a convention which I have been conditioned to expect. I've been told it will make me happy. Yet for so many people, that expectation seems to cause the opposite effect.

 

I just mean maybe to be monogamous isn't our natural state?

 

I believe it is intrinsic to the human condition to love, and to have compassion, and to construct societies on moral laws. But the details of those laws can and have changed over the centuries.

 

We live in a somewhat puritanical age when it comes to sex, despite all the internet porn etc.

 

But ...what's internet porn? What's porn? Isn't it just the acceptable face of infidelity?

 

It makes me angry that I live in a world which promotes monogamy, and also condones pornography. That seems to be the greatest of hypocrisies.

But you blamed CHEATING (not the confines of monogomy) on the expectations of people that their partner be faithful. There is nothing wrong with a person choosing their own path. The difference between a cheater and a person with an alternative lifestyle is that THE CHEATER IS A LYING SNEAK!

 

As for porn, big deal. Unless someone is on the net communicating with a live person, porn is merely sexual entertainment. Hell, I watch porn WITH my sweety.

 

I know you know the difference between merely viewing porn (no physical involvement) and someone's partner who said they would "forsake all others" sneaking around, lying, and having sex with others.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I think I mean monogamy is the norm. I mean, I suppose, that it's always been MY expectation. I've felt like I needed it, in order to feel loved.

And now I wonder why that is? And I wonder if it's true?

And I feel that it isn't necessarily true. I think it might just be part of my social conditioning, that I've been taught to expect fidelity - meaning sexual fidelity - and taught that I should be happy with one man.

When now I feel much more like monogamy is simply a convention which I have been conditioned to expect. I've been told it will make me happy. Yet for so many people, that expectation seems to cause the opposite effect.

I just mean maybe to be monogamous isn't our natural state?

I believe it is intrinsic to the human condition to love, and to have compassion, and to construct societies on moral laws. But the details of those laws can and have changed over the centuries.

We live in a somewhat puritanical age when it comes to sex, despite all the internet porn etc.

But ...what's internet porn? What's porn? Isn't it just the acceptable face of infidelity?

It makes me angry that I live in a world which promotes monogamy, and also condones pornography. That seems to be the greatest of hypocrisies.

 

Your gripe with monogamy sounds to me more like your attempt to rationalize having an affair.

 

At some point your going to have to just look in the mirror and admit what you did was wrong, and that it hurt other people.

 

You can't blame monogamy for making you cheat with an abusive jerk anymore than I can blame the speedlimit for my choice to exceed it.

[donnamaybe]

You can't blame monogamy for making you cheat with an abusive jerk anymore than I can blame the speedlimit for my choice to exceed it.

 

Oooo, good analogy!

[theodora]

As for porn, big deal. Unless someone is on the net communicating with a live person, porn is merely sexual entertainment. Hell, I watch porn WITH my sweety.

 

I know you know the difference between merely viewing porn (no physical involvement) and someone's partner who said they would "forsake all others" sneaking around, lying, and having sex with others.

 

 

I hate the way women pretend they are "liberated" while promoting and supporting the sex industry.

 

I used to work in the sex industry. I have friends who were prostituted and forced to appear in porn.

 

It's not harmless when your arse pops inside out because you've been made to do so much anal that you have to go to hospital.

 

Or when you get gonhorrhoea.

 

Or when you have to support your income with escorting and prostitution.

 

Or when you have to have sex with the boss because it's in your contract.

 

Or when you look at yourself in the mirror and can't understand how you ended up in this place, having once been a young girl with real hopes and dreams!!

 

Yeah. Big deal.

 

I'm sorry in advance for the tone of this post. This stuff is off topic but it makes me so angry. And when I hear other women describe it as no big deal, I just feel complete despair.

[torranceshipman]

The more I think about it, the more I begin to feel like the whole concept of Monogamy is at fault for the existence of infidelity.

 

Since it is clearly true that as human beings we struggle to be sexually faithful as a species, why are individuals at fault when we fail to comply with this standard?

 

I think next time I get into a relationship with a man, I am going to make sure we become Swingers. I reckon Swingers have the right idea. You acknowledge the desire for multiple sexual partners, which we all have, as animals, and you explore it together.

 

Isn't that preferable to building a relationship on impossible expectations?

 

I know loads of people would think it's sad that I feel like monogamy is an impossible expectation. But it's not just experience which makes me think it. It's an instinct. I kind of just know that if I fall in love with a man, he is going to want to have sex with other people. And truthfully, so am I.

 

Why not do it together and save all this sneaking around behind people's backs? Wouldn't we all be happier?

 

Sex is so messed up in our society. Let's Swing!

 

Anyone have any thoughts as to why this is in fact a load of rubbish, and why I should rethink?

 

I suspect there is a strong counter argument. It's just how I am thinking right now.

 

Monogamy was never the guilty party - LYING is. When people get M they make a promise, and the damage is done in breaking that promise and the lying that is involved. If you don't ever want to get M and make that promise, then fine. If you are both of the swinger mindset, then fine. If you are committed monogamists without a ring on your finger, fine. Just don't change your mind and start lying as that is where the damage happens.

[donnamaybe]

I hate the way women pretend they are "liberated" while promoting and supporting the sex industry.

 

I used to work in the sex industry. I have friends who were prostituted and forced to appear in porn.

 

It's not harmless when your arse pops inside out because you've been made to do so much anal that you have to go to hospital.

 

Or when you get gonhorrhoea.

 

Or when you have to support your income with escorting and prostitution.

 

Or when you have to have sex with the boss because it's in your contract.

 

Or when you look at yourself in the mirror and can't understand how you ended up in this place, having once been a young girl with real hopes and dreams!!

 

Yeah. Big deal.

 

I'm sorry in advance for the tone of this post. This stuff is off topic but it makes me so angry. And when I hear other women describe it as no big deal, I just feel complete despair.

Women are forced into porn in the US? Really?

 

Hmmm..... Let's ask Jenna Jamison, shall we?

 

What about men doing gay porn? Are they forced as well? Every single solitary human being in a porn movie is forced? Seriously doubt it.

 

I'm glad it makes you feel somewhat better to try to bash on me over porn, but I might guess where your "high horse" attitude comes from. Is it perhaps to make you feel better for sneaking around behind the back of a partner and screwing some other guy while I don't do such things?