what's wrong with saying...

[wheelwright]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

[crazycatlady]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

 

Both sides want to believe that the love is for them and them only. But I agree, I think love probably is often for both, though the intensity can flip flop back and forth for either choice throughout the affair.

 

I respect my H for being honest (finally) about loving us both and not trying to diminish what he felt to spare my feelings, and I know because I saw it, that he would tell her he loved me too.

 

But I've always thought life was shades of gray and not black and white, yes or no, only one or the other, not both.

 

CCL

[bentnotbroken]

I don't think Mr. Messy loved anyone but Mr. Messy. He didn't love me or he wouldn't have hurt me the one way I asked him not to. He didn't love her because he didn't know who she really was. He loved the fantasy of her and him(probably why they aren't together). It is one thing to plan a life, dream about a life and then live that life(been there already, it isn't easy). So who did he love, maybe not even himself...because how could you love yourself and introduce chaos, disrespect and drama into your life?

[JAGeezer]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

 

Because it's self-pitying cake-eating nonsense. You're trying to justify the unjustifiable.

 

JAG

[Gfkr2]

In the real world the l1000s of ies and deception of a secret A ruin M, hurt children and destroy families. Otherwise, everyone would go happily on their way but people get hurt. You can see the broken pieces of once happy lives all over this site.

[LadyDi]

Obviously not everyone was all that happy or the A wouldn't have happened....

[SidLyon]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

 

My fWH has never ever pretended he didn't love his OW with whom he had an A lasting several years. I have never suggested he didn't.

 

While I did not know of the A he felt he was able to continue with both relationships. Me because I didn't know and she because she accepted it.

 

On d-day I made it clear that a decision to try to continue with both would mean he would only have one of us - and that would have been her because i would have left.

 

My H is a logical person. At one stage a few months after d-day he tried to draw up a "pros and cons" list of us staying together. Naturally it came out on the side of us staying together. "Lifelong and enduring love and soulmates" were a features of his list as I recall.

 

Perhaps he mentally went through a similar process at d-day in deciding whether he would try to keep both of us going , (which would have meant continuing to lie to and betray me), or choosing on e or other of us. He was lucky I suppose to have that choice.

[Silly_Girl]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

 

I thought it was far more common for the WS to deny loving both? I thought generally they did the minimising and the fact we (the BS and the OW/OM) believe them is more the issue. Because they tell the AP the marriage is all but dead but they have a list of practical reasons they cannot leave, and the BS is told that the AP means nothing and it was all a big error of judgement and turns out they loved the BS all along. There's a BS here (I forget who -apologies) who wished her H could confess to loving the OW or something near it, because the existence of the A would make more sense, but her H never could state that to be the case.

[Woggle]

I don't think Mr. Messy loved anyone but Mr. Messy. He didn't love me or he wouldn't have hurt me the one way I asked him not to. He didn't love her because he didn't know who she really was. He loved the fantasy of her and him(probably why they aren't together). It is one thing to plan a life, dream about a life and then live that life(been there already, it isn't easy). So who did he love, maybe not even himself...because how could you love yourself and introduce chaos, disrespect and drama into your life?

 

Exactly. Cheaters only love themselves and their actions are simply for their own benefit at the expense of others.

[pureinheart]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

 

 

This is really good WW:)...you know, even though exDM had a terrible, turbulent M...I know he loved her and still does (but would not admit it).

 

She rocked his world like no other ever will, he M'ed her and that says a lot, even though the M was expected, the right thing to do because she was pregnant, fact remains, he M'ed her...I hope he is able to find someone to rock his world again.

 

In bold...very profound and true. Had I believed him and not been so in the clouds thinking it would be different for us, could have saved myself a great deal of pain and heartache.

[jennie-jennie]

I know my MM loves us both, but I also know that his love for his wife has changed while being in a relationship with me. He no longer desires her sexually and romantically. Perhaps that could return if our relationship ended, but it is not there now.

 

But there's no two ways about it, he loves us both.

[Ellin]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

I agree with you Wheelwright.

 

It is entirely possible that MM/MW develops feelings for someone else for whatever reason, perhaps something that's not going well in the M, and attempts to leave the M, but then changes his\her mind, while loving two people at the same time (in various degree).

 

I've always been totally against posters commenting with apparent certainty about someone else's, who they don't know, emotional states.

 

It angers me when someone comes on the forum in a vulnerable state, looking for support in a situation involving A or infidelity and is told "he/she doesn't love you, never have, never will, only loves the W/H/OM/OW, you're only a toy to be used" etc. That's really twisting the knife and without any proof whether it's even true.

[Woggle]

Sometimes the harsh truth needs to be said. How can a person possibly fix a problem if they won't acknowledge it in the first place?

[Ellin]

Sometimes the harsh truth needs to be said. How can a person possibly fix a problem if they won't acknowledge it in the first place?

Truth is different from trying to make things look as bad as possible without really knowing what the truth is.

[Silly_Girl]

Truth is different from trying to make things look as bad as possible without really knowing what the truth is.

 

I have trouble with responses that suggest there is a black and white answer and the person replying knows the situation far better than the person in it. These 'obvious truths' can be signposted, of course, but to come down heavy can result in the OP being defensive and no progress being made on the actual issue. Which then defeats the object.

 

I started a thread about this not long after I joined because I felt the well-meaning intentions of some posters was getting lost due to the very prescriptive style of their answers.

[Gfkr2]

Obviously not everyone was all that happy or the A wouldn't have happened....

 

Does that mean happiness isn't at the core if all marriages then? I am curious how a BS is supposed to make their partner happy if they are unaware of the cheaters unhappiness in their R.

[pureinheart]

Sometimes the harsh truth needs to be said. How can a person possibly fix a problem if they won't acknowledge it in the first place?

 

If a person is really looking for "truth" it will be found...FTR I am speaking of any truth.

 

Most of the time it is communicated the desire for the truth, others it is for support. There are times that "my" timing to "tell" someone "my" truth is in fact not the right time, as a person may not be ready even though "I" think they should be.

 

I think it's important to read the signs of the poster....

[skylarblue]

I imagine at times it’s hard to take someone at their word when at the moment they are in the role of “liar/cheater”…MM has never said he loves me. I don’t know if does or not. I’m not sure that I’d believe him if he said he did, but I’d probably accept and like think it’d be genuine. MM has also never said that he loves his W. I imagine that he does, but it’s possible that he doesn’t. Or perhaps he loves her very much but is no longer “in love” with her. Again, I don’t know. Maybe he loves us both, maybe he doesn’t love either (at least in way people expect love to be).

 

Sometimes it’s tough to be unbiased in our perception on things when trying to decipher the actions of people. Meaning (for example) it may be easy for the OW/BS to say “MM could’ve have loved her/me because he did x,y,z” (had an A, chose to work on his M, lied to me/her for x amount of time, chose me over/her over me, etc) based on what your perception on love is/mean. It’s a tough sell to think someone could love you yet hurt you deeply. I’d imagine (IDK, I’ve never been the BS) the BS is simply trying to make sense of what has happened.

[jwi71]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Interesting premise but I disagree with it.

 

The person, as BNB pointed out, the WS loves most is himself/herself at the expense of others. This is not a desirable trait in my eyes.

 

They choose the BS almost always - so few leave.

They choose "their money" over both the BS and the AP - we see this in many derivations.

They choose to "not devastate the W" which is saying "I value her emotional well being over the AP's"

They choose to "not hurt the kids" even when the kids are ADULTS (or mid teens who have the capability to handle it). My IC and my own primitive research also supports D is NOT so traumatic for kids...I know as I live it everyday. What, from what I have been told and read, is loving, active and involved parents. Single parent or not.

 

In all of those above, and I'm sure there are more, they choose their OWN comfort and needs over everyone. Always taking the course of least resistance in terms of THEIR OWN LIFE.

They won't work on their M

They won't work on leaving it either.

They won't give up "half" so to speak to be out of the M (placing his material comfort over the emotional needs of others - bad trait imo).

 

Its almost always about the WS. Its not about loving one or the other but how happy the WS is.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

Because they are proven liars - over and over and over again. That's why.

When you dance with the devil you don't change the devil, he changes you.

 

I WOULD put faith in their ACTIONS. What are they doing? There's the truth if you choose to see.

[pureinheart]

I imagine at times it’s hard to take someone at their word when at the moment they are in the role of “liar/cheater”…MM has never said he loves me. I don’t know if does or not. I’m not sure that I’d believe him if he said he did, but I’d probably accept and like think it’d be genuine. MM has also never said that he loves his W. I imagine that he does, but it’s possible that he doesn’t. Or perhaps he loves her very much but is no longer “in love” with her. Again, I don’t know. Maybe he loves us both, maybe he doesn’t love either (at least in way people expect love to be).

 

Sometimes it’s tough to be unbiased in our perception on things when trying to decipher the actions of people. Meaning (for example) it may be easy for the OW/BS to say “MM could’ve have loved her/me because he did x,y,z” (had an A, chose to work on his M, lied to me/her for x amount of time, chose me over/her over me, etc) based on what your perception on love is/mean. It’s a tough sell to think someone could love you yet hurt you deeply. I’d imagine (IDK, I’ve never been the BS) the BS is simply trying to make sense of what has happened.

 

I'd say he's severely cut off from his emotions...(bold)

 

I have heard it said many times, that we hurt the ones we love...who knows

[jj33]

Wheelwright only you know what you two shared.

 

Everyone has their own barometer. There are lots of situations where people choose things over what they love.

 

Does the husband who works 80 hours a week love the job or the money more than his family? He could say he does it for his family and they share in the things that money buys, but isnt he also doing it for his ego and status and sense of accomplishment?

 

There are so many permutations in so all facets of life. The fact that soneone isnt willing to change their entire life to be with someone they love does not IMHO mean they dont love them, it simply means that the status quo is not so miserable and appalling that they are willing to tear their life apart for "the love".

 

Similarly those who leave rarely if ever do it "for" the AP. They do it because it was time to leave the marriage. The fact that they end up with the AP simply means that was the right next relationship (and maybe happily ever after relationship) for them to be in. some will disagree but I think an AP might be a catalyst but never the cause. Thats why many post A relationships dont survive. They are subject to the same scrutiny as any other relationship once they are out in the open and full time.

 

IMHO those who make it a "black and white" calculation (if he loved you hed move mountains for you) do so to support their own beliefs and justify their own positions based on their experiences.

[Silly_Girl]

Wheelwright only you know what you two shared.

 

Everyone has their own barometer. There are lots of situations where people choose things over what they love.

 

Does the husband who works 80 hours a week love the job or the money more than his family? He could say he does it for his family and they share in the things that money buys, but isnt he also doing it for his ego and status and sense of accomplishment?

 

There are so many permutations in so all facets of life. The fact that soneone isnt willing to change their entire life to be with someone they love does not IMHO mean they dont love them, it simply means that the status quo is not so miserable and appalling that they are willing to tear their life apart for "the love".

 

Similarly those who leave rarely if ever do it "for" the AP. They do it because it was time to leave the marriage. The fact that they end up with the AP simply means that was the right next relationship (and maybe happily ever after relationship) for them to be in. some will disagree but I think an AP might be a catalyst but never the cause. Thats why many post A relationships dont survive. They are subject to the same scrutiny as any other relationship once they are out in the open and full time.

 

IMHO those who make it a "black and white" calculation (if he loved you hed move mountains for you) do so to support their own beliefs and justify their own positions based on their experiences.

 

Fantastic post. So much truth.

[seren]

I thought it was far more common for the WS to deny loving both? I thought generally they did the minimising and the fact we (the BS and the OW/OM) believe them is more the issue. Because they tell the AP the marriage is all but dead but they have a list of practical reasons they cannot leave, and the BS is told that the AP means nothing and it was all a big error of judgement and turns out they loved the BS all along.

 

There's a BS here (I forget who -apologies) who wished her H could confess to loving the OW or something near it, because the existence of the A would make more sense, but her H never could state that to be the case.

 

Silly Girl I think you are referring to my saying that it would have made it easier to understand and easier to forgive my H's A, if he had loved, even if he had thought during the A that he had loved. After D day, when he did all he could and more to express regret, he couldn't and wouldn't say that it had been for love. While it would have hurt (can knowing about an A bring anymore hurt) it would have made far more sense and made it easier for me to process. During early days, I practically begged (not literally) him to say this, he just said he couldn't and wouldn't lie to me anymore, he could have made it easier for himself and me, had he said that he risked all for love, to be told that he thought of nothing and no one other than himself is staggeringly honest, hurtful and just so selfish it beggars belief. But, once I understood why the A started, it made it somewhat easier.

 

I am sure there are many A's when an A is based on love, but, nearly all marriages start out that way too. Each A is as different as each M, to generalise is pretty pointless as only the MP really knows who is loved, how, why and how deeply. IMO, D Day is the time that truly shows where they want to be, no one stays somewhere they don't want to be, for whatever reason. I would have no problem with H saying that he loved OW, well maybe that's a bit of an understatement, what I would have a problem with is for someone to love me and not choose to be with me - that really doesn't make any sense at all IMO.

[Silly_Girl]

Silly Girl I think you are referring to my saying that it would have made it easier to understand and easier to forgive my H's A, if he had loved, even if he had thought during the A that he had loved. After D day, when he did all he could and more to express regret, he couldn't and wouldn't say that it had been for love. While it would have hurt (can knowing about an A bring anymore hurt) it would have made far more sense and made it easier for me to process. During early days, I practically begged (not literally) him to say this, he just said he couldn't and wouldn't lie to me anymore, he could have made it easier for himself and me, had he said that he risked all for love, to be told that he thought of nothing and no one other than himself is staggeringly honest, hurtful and just so selfish it beggars belief. But, once I understood why the A started, it made it somewhat easier.

 

I am sure there are many A's when an A is based on love, but, nearly all marriages start out that way too. Each A is as different as each M, to generalise is pretty pointless as only the MP really knows who is loved, how, why and how deeply. IMO, D Day is the time that truly shows where they want to be, no one stays somewhere they don't want to be, for whatever reason. I would have no problem with H saying that he loved OW, well maybe that's a bit of an understatement, what I would have a problem with is for someone to love me and not choose to be with me - that really doesn't make any sense at all IMO.

 

Exactly that - because I would have felt the same. I felt frustrated that my ex would cheat on me in such a superficial and meaningless way, and it in turn made me feel as though I was those things, to him.

[NoIDidn't]

It would be easier to take them at their "word" if it stopped changing so much.

 

First the MM says "I don't love my W anymore. I love her but I'm not in love with her. The marriage is dead" to the OW.

 

Then, when busted he says to the W "It (meaning SHE) meant nothing to me".

 

Then, when the why this, why that starts from the OW he says "She made me say/do it"

 

Then, a few months later when the A is over and he's had some time and effort actually put back into his M, he says "What was I thinking?!!!"

 

Its hard to take that at face value.

 

Personally, I don't care who the MM says he loved. He proves how strong that love is with where decides to reside. It could be that he loves himself most of all. It could be that he chose to be "honorable" and end the affair and mend his M all while still loving the OW. It could be that he never loved the OW at all and would say anything to keep her offering him sex (see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article789090.ece

for a man's take on it).

 

Who really cares at the end of the day, if he's not with you its no longer important (be that W or OW). And if he is with you and you are going to spend your time wondering who he loved more, that insecurity should be confronted (be that W or OW).