what's wrong with saying...

[jennie-jennie]

I don't think it's a "turn on" per se. I think that in short term affairs it does add to the excitement/thrill.

 

I don't think that thrill specifically lasts in a long term affair...we agree there.

 

But...I think that even after an extended time of several years, the "in love" can last much, much longer. A number of books and various authors I've read all tend to concur that the "in love" phase is typically greatly drawn out and exaggerated in the case of an affair.

 

And in those situations...the WS is still comparing the "fantasy" of having a "live in" relationship with the OW/OM with the "reality" of having that same relationship with their spouse. There's little opportunity for the downside of the realities of living together intruding on the affair relationship.

 

Talking from my own experience, being a person who is always in love even long term in any relationship be it an affair or a regular one, I know the destructive impact of the affair is a much stronger force than the reality of every day life.

 

It starts the first time the MM tells you he will not leave his wife, then the bricks are added to that wall one by one throughout the years. We have read this many times on LS. This negative emotional impact is much worse than any day to day problems, which we all have to deal with anyway.

 

Perhaps the reason that the in-love feeling lasts longer in an affair, is that the mutual attraction actually has to be much greater to be able to survive in the affair context. Why would you want to stay in such a situation otherwise? The relationship has to be extraordinary, otherwise the cons would outweigh the pros pretty quickly.

[Owl]

Talking from my own experience, being a person who is always in love even long term in any relationship be it an affair or a regular one, I know the destructive impact of the affair is a much stronger force than the reality of every day life.

 

It starts the first time the MM tells you he will not leave his wife, then the bricks are added to that wall one by one throughout the years. We have read this many times on LS. This negative emotional impact is much worse than any day to day problems, which we all have to deal with anyway.

 

I can agree that this emotional grindstoning would have to be pretty hard to endure, especially year after year.

 

Perhaps the reason that the in-love feeling lasts longer in an affair, is that the mutual attraction actually has to be much greater to be able to survive in the affair context. Why would you want to stay in such a situation otherwise? The relationship has to be extraordinary, otherwise the cons would outweigh the pros pretty quickly.

 

I think on this, we'll have to agree to disagree. You and I already know each other's views on this already...no point in going over that again.

 

I'll just respect that this is your view. You know mine differs. There we are.

[czecze]

Perhaps the reason that the in-love feeling lasts longer in an affair, is that the mutual attraction actually has to be much greater to be able to survive in the affair context. Why would you want to stay in such a situation otherwise? The relationship has to be extraordinary, otherwise the cons would outweigh the pros pretty quickly.

 

I think so, or else why would anyone stay while there is so much pain?

And all relationships are not the same, perhaps the AP can offer the mm/mw something that the BS cannot, such as same hobby or interests, or a better way of communication and understanding? I know some would say that if the BS cannot do so, why marry him/her in the first place. But we are attracted to people for different reasons. We might like/love someone for some qualities they have, like some women may like a guy who is very protective or bright or whatever, but later they may meet someone whom they can share more of their thoughts with, or as they mature, they may acquire different interests that the BS may not share but the AP may.

So i think it is not fair to say that one is attracts to the AP only because of the newest or the feeling of being in love, each relationship is different, and depends on the people involved. some may be attracted because of the newest and excitement, others maybe attracted by something deeper. By generalization. one would be seeing the world in only Black and white.

[pureinheart]

For you and White Flower....

 

The phrase you are responding to does not mean that people cannot change, in fact, it explicitly states that someone WILL change. However, the person doing the changing is typically the AP and NOT the MM/MW. And seldom for the better.

 

JW, I was mainly messing with you:), as I always love your approach and wisdom....

 

I always want to hope that all of us will change for the better, and for the mostpart, those that participate on these forums do...I have seen great change...and FTR it is not only the AP that needs the changing, sometimes the BS has found the error of their ways also...of course, I am of the opinion that it in most cases takes two to make and break.

 

Forgive me if I am a bit of and have misconstrued your words:)...a lot of drama in my neck of the woods lately...much change all around me and I'm not all here:)

[bentnotbroken]

I think so, or else why would anyone stay while there is so much pain?

And all relationships are not the same, perhaps the AP can offer the mm/mw something that the BS cannot, such as same hobby or interests, or a better way of communication and understanding? I know some would say that if the BS cannot do so, why marry him/her in the first place. But we are attracted to people for different reasons. We might like/love someone for some qualities they have, like some women may like a guy who is very protective or bright or whatever, but later they may meet someone whom they can share more of their thoughts with, or as they mature, they may acquire different interests that the BS may not share but the AP may.

So i think it is not fair to say that one is attracts to the AP only because of the newest or the feeling of being in love, each relationship is different, and depends on the people involved. some may be attracted because of the newest and excitement, others maybe attracted by something deeper. By generalization. one would be seeing the world in only Black and white.

 

 

Some actually like the black and white of life. It allows for more peace and good times. I do understand that most people like to gray up their lives for the thrill...interesting.

[White Flower]

Some actually like the black and white of life. It allows for more peace and good times. I do understand that most people like to gray up their lives for the thrill...interesting.

Does that mean you prefer black and white photography?

 

I like color photography myself.

[pureinheart]

I read it. I found it to be typical of what an outsider would think and since the author is supposedly an OM he is an outsider. I could never see Stampdaddy or OOM on this website writing that article.

 

It looked more like a BS wrote it. Some parts I could relate to, but not the overall article.

 

Yep, it looked to me like a MM having an A speaking of OW....wow...I seriously doubt any of the OW I have known in my life or on this web site would subject themselves to what the article actually depicted.

 

To me, both the OW and W need to rid themselves of this individual...he has absolutely no respect for human beings in any way, shape, or form.

 

I personally have never had a personal R with this type and never would.

[White Flower]

I would agree.

 

And I'd add...in the case of an affair...it's impossible for the WS not to contrast the marital relationship with the affair relationship.

 

And if you're looking at that affair relationship through that "perception", while contrasting it with the "reality" of the marriage that's no longer in this phase...it's easy to understand why an affair becomes so addictive, why the marriage often seems to pale in comparison.

 

The WS is trying to compare "in love" with "long term love". Like In Repair described...the perception of your affair relationship with the reality of your marital one.

You're right, comparing does happen.

 

But if we're smart enough and articulate enough we can understand the difference between comparing a new R with an old one.

 

I held off becoming PA with MM because I really need to know a person before I sleep with him. It took about a year and a half. Does that mean I knew him completely? Heck no! Though, after 23 years of M I discovered I didn't even know my exH completely. One reason is because we evolve over time, and during that evolution process, M people may grow apart. So now you have something to compare-old and new- with another dynamic which is evolution-hoping for the best against anticipating the worst. It's a gambe whether it's M or A, we just don't know.

 

It's the educated guess that it will be better in the A that makes us go for it. Another aspect is taking a risk on happiness even if it is short-lived. Like they say, it is better to have had love and lost it than to never having it at all. A's certainly hurt, but so does love in M. I still don't regret it.

 

That doesn't mean that I never loved my H or he never loved me. We did love each other. But for me, that love paled in comparison to that which I found with MM. I know it doesn't always work out that way, and I'm happy that some of your WS found true love back at home.

[pureinheart]

Seems to describe the male condition pretty accurately. Ok, its overstating quite a lot to make the point, but baldly speaking, it seems to cover the dynamic.

 

Oh and for the record, I'm sure my opinion will mean FA as a BS. Whatever.

 

 

Not the men I know (thank God)...I have been very fortunate not to have experienced this type of attitude and behavior even in the situations I've been in. They have been human, and have done human things and have messed up as I have.

 

Even in the "dynamic" sense I have never seen this attitude.

[In_Repair]

I think it's hilarious that someone linked the article where the man is describing how a MM "plays" his OW to make her believe what he wants her to believe so he can keep getting the royal treatment... and then all of you OW immediately perk up and say how that isn't the case in your affair. Not throwing stones at anyone in particular, so don't get your panties in a wad, it's just funny.

 

A casual outside observer might conclude that your MM must be good at his game. I guess this is why even though I have been an AP, I just don't understand some of the thinking I see displayed here sometimes. I'm a man and this forum is dominated by women. I base a good deal of my advice to OW on behavior and comments that, as a man, I have seen and heard from other MM in real life.

Edited August 9, 2010 by In_Repair
.....

[bentnotbroken]

Does that mean you prefer black and white photography?

 

I like color photography myself.

 

 

LOL. how did you guess?

[pureinheart]

I agree with Owl.

 

It's easy to "love" your AP. You usually only see their good side while you are in the affair. Meanwhile, the spouse is at home dealing with their bull**** on a daily basis. The AP is put on a pedestal and the BS gets thrown in the mud. Then the WS tends to do the whole revisionist history thing and rewrite their pasts to suit their present situation. Suddenly that person who they married and promised to be with forever is nothing but a horrible liar who has them trapped in a loveless marriage. It's usually more of a fantasy than anything else.

 

Generalization possibly...in my experience from what I've seen...no

[pureinheart]

I think it's hilarious that someone linked the article where the man is describing how a MM "plays" his OW to make her believe what he wants her to believe so he can keep getting the royal treatment... and then all of you OW immediately perk up and say how that isn't the case in your affair. Not throwing stones at anyone in particular, so don't get your panties in a wad, it's just funny.

 

A casual outside observer might conclude that your MM must be good at his game. I guess this is why even though I have been an AP, I just don't understand some of the thinking I see displayed here sometimes. I'm a man and this forum is dominated by women. I base a good deal of my advice to OW on behavior and comments that, as a man, I have seen and heard from other MM in real life.

 

I see nothing funny...and as far as I know the comments by "OW" aren't OW to date...so I am not understanding where you are coming from.

 

This type of attitude would disgust me if it were the other way around also, of which the BS's and OW would have communicated as such (disgusting behavior)...my advice would be to get as far away from this individual as possible as this individual does not "love" his W either.

[In_Repair]

Generalization possibly...in my experience from what I've seen...no

 

That's the great thing about internet forums, we get to share our individual experiences. In my experiences and observations, the "soul mate" crap is just a fantasy that dies once the affair is over, whether the affair ended with them getting together or not. There are exceptions, of course.

 

So yes, I generalized. I thought that would be easier to read, rather than breaking down every possible scenario just to appease the exceptions to the rule.

[Owl]

Generalization possibly...in my experience from what I've seen...no

 

Hmmm....

 

Have you ever asked your MM to wash undies that were soiled during your "time"?

 

Ever been in the bathroom when he's "dropped a bomb"?

 

Ever had to sit down for four hours in one evening to work out a new budget and agree on where to spend less because the two of you don't make the same amount of money that you did the past month?

 

Disagreed with how to discipline your child...and had to work out an "on the spot" solution to deal with that, while avoiding trying to argue about it in front of your kids?

 

Had to ask him for the umpteenth time to pick up his shoes that he left in the middle of the floor...and he always forgets and does it anyway?

 

Spent two weeks with him cramped in what amounts to a motel room...along with four kids? And then tried to figure out how to get the laundry done?

 

That's the difference between the 'fantasy' of what life together would be like and the reality of executing it long term.

[In_Repair]

I see nothing funny...and as far as I know the comments by "OW" aren't OW to date...so I am not understanding where you are coming from.

 

This type of attitude would disgust me if it were the other way around also, of which the BS's and OW would have communicated as such (disgusting behavior)...my advice would be to get as far away from this individual as possible as this individual does not "love" his W either.

 

"OW to date"... so they were other women... former OW who come to post, and to sometimes even romanticize about it, on a board for OW/OM. So, just to help me understand, how does that negate what I was saying?

 

Give me a break, I even used the words "to a casual observer". It was more just a comic view of the situation, and not a dig at anyone.

[jennie-jennie]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

Why can't we take them at their word?

 

Seems like we are back to using the minimizing tactic WW was talking about in the OP.

[jennie-jennie]

Once upon a time in life you come upon a fellow human being whose characteristics talk to you in a way no one has done before. Someone who thinks like you, who is like you, who is more similar to you than anyone ever has been before. Then you don't care if he is married. You just love him. And if you are lucky, he loves you back.

[Owl]

And if EVERYONE is real lucky...he's not married nor made vows/promises/built a life with someone else!

[pureinheart]

"OW to date"... so they were other women... former OW who come to post, and to sometimes even romanticize about it, on a board for OW/OM. So, just to help me understand, how does that negate what I was saying?

 

Give me a break, I even used the words "to a casual observer". It was more just a comic view of the situation, and not a dig at anyone.

 

Sorry, I still see nothing funny, comic, casual observer or otherwise...just how I see it.

 

Even though you may not have been throwing stones at anyone in particular, it is the general idea of the matter.

 

IR...maybe it's me,...k...the guys I hung/hang around have "sheltered" me to a degree, I can name many instances in which I was "left" out of various activities due to a respect issue. I had to be rescued many times due to a lack of knowledge about particular situations that escalated to unreasonable proportions.

 

Maybe that is the definition of the "real world" that I don't understand, so forgive me if I was off.

 

Seriously IR, is that what really goes on, are there a lot of guys out there that think and act like that? (being very serious and not sarcastic)

[pureinheart]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?[/QUOTE]

 

After the discussion about the link that NID posted, I have to say that back in the day I went to a church that had a M restoration group, me and my H attended. The coucelling was grueling to say the least. I spent up to 40 hours per week (I was laid off at the time) working on me and my issues. There is much more detail to this, although this is the jist.

 

One of the major things that the older people (not age, but people of wisdom) drove home was that we have no choice but to take a person at their word...it is the proper thing to do....if they are lying it's their problem.

 

Based on what I have seen in this forum, I would say the majority will not agree with this.

 

I liked this reasoning as I do not have the time to police another person, I don't want to spend my energy and time policing another. I would rather do more productive things that will help me to succeed in what I consider success.

 

I don't want to think ill of people, even those that have harmed me. I don't want to be angry and just want to have fun and discuss things with people, having fruitful, productive R's...anything that will heal and build up...not to tare down. To add, truth IMO builds up if it is delievered properly.

 

Having led a very "interesting" life to say the least, and am grateful to have lived through it:)...I don't want to understand the dark side to a lot of this world and am grateful to all of the men who have sheltered me from that...and it was men.

 

WW, I chose to take them at their word, no matter the sitch.

[Ellin]

And if EVERYONE is real lucky...he's not married nor made vows/promises/built a life with someone else!

That would be ideal.

 

But people change and evolve and sometimes it happens that one is not the same person and one was 20 years before. And if a long-term partner has not followed the couple might not be as compatible as they once were any more.

[pureinheart]

Hmmm....

 

Have you ever asked your MM to wash undies that were soiled during your "time"?

 

Ever been in the bathroom when he's "dropped a bomb"?

 

Ever had to sit down for four hours in one evening to work out a new budget and agree on where to spend less because the two of you don't make the same amount of money that you did the past month?

 

Disagreed with how to discipline your child...and had to work out an "on the spot" solution to deal with that, while avoiding trying to argue about it in front of your kids?

 

Had to ask him for the umpteenth time to pick up his shoes that he left in the middle of the floor...and he always forgets and does it anyway?

 

Spent two weeks with him cramped in what amounts to a motel room...along with four kids? And then tried to figure out how to get the laundry done?

 

That's the difference between the 'fantasy' of what life together would be like and the reality of executing it long term.

 

I understand what you are saying, although how does that coincide with the reason I quoted and responded to In Repair? My reply to In Repair had to do with an article concerning the thoughts that a MM has towards his OW...which I thought were completely disgusting and have never been exposed to that behavior as such even in the worst sitches I've been through...

 

In your responce I do agree that the reality of the R...this can be in any R though...

[fooled once]

Honestly, I think that it is very individualized.

 

I myself can only love ONE man at a time. I really don't even understand how someone can sleep with another man when they are married to another man. To me it means, leave the man you are with.

 

** Me too

 

Conversely, I was with a MM. He never professed his love for her EVER. He gave reasons for marrying her, but love was not one of them. So while it is hypocritical, I understand his side. But whatever, I never let him off the hook for staying with her and me.

 

The person I was in an affair with never said he loved his wife nor did she come up in conversation very often (in the 2 years we were together, maybe 1-2 times the first year when he was living on his own, and maybe 5 times the 2nd year we were together when he was back to living with her). I didn't ask, I figured he was telling me the truth about things and he was handling things.

 

To me personally, I can only love one person at a time and put forth my effort in one relationship. And if my H had ever told me he loved the XW in any capacity I would have ended the R totally. I will not be in competition with anyone when I love someone with all my heart. I just WON"T do it. It is all me or it is not me at all.

 

** Agree again.

 

And really I don't believe the loving two people at the same time propaganda.

I think that is really speak for : I love myself first and foremost.

 

** Agree again.

 

I think the discussion is important for those who are like me. If my H ever cheated on me, I could not bear staying with him if he said that he loved the AP. It would KILL me. It would be like him saying he loved someone more than me and I could not bear it. I love him soooooooo much.

 

I want to be my H number 1.

 

I want my H to forsake all others for me.

 

I don't want my H to lie to me or take another to bed.

 

I want to have a R with my H that is pure, real and meets both of our needs.

 

** Agree again!!

 

I mean, would you want to be with someone just because you're the default and they couldn't get what they REALLY wanted.

 

** I agree - I want to be the choice, not the fall back plan.

 

Great post GEL. I agree with alot of what you wrote (my responses above in bold).

 

But..........WW, it's his choice as to where he is. You have to let go of it, regardless of what your opinion of it is. Who it's fair to, why he is there, none of it really matters, because he CHOOSES to be there.

 

Hugs.....

 

Agree with you too BB07 - the MM IS making a choice by staying.

 

Interesting premise but I disagree with it.

 

The person, as BNB pointed out, the WS loves most is himself/herself at the expense of others. This is not a desirable trait in my eyes.

 

They choose the BS almost always - so few leave.

They choose "their money" over both the BS and the AP - we see this in many derivations.

They choose to "not devastate the W" which is saying "I value her emotional well being over the AP's"

They choose to "not hurt the kids" even when the kids are ADULTS (or mid teens who have the capability to handle it). My IC and my own primitive research also supports D is NOT so traumatic for kids...I know as I live it everyday. What, from what I have been told and read, is loving, active and involved parents. Single parent or not.

 

In all of those above, and I'm sure there are more, they choose their OWN comfort and needs over everyone. Always taking the course of least resistance in terms of THEIR OWN LIFE.

They won't work on their M

They won't work on leaving it either.

They won't give up "half" so to speak to be out of the M (placing his material comfort over the emotional needs of others - bad trait imo).

 

Its almost always about the WS. Its not about loving one or the other but how happy the WS is.

 

Because they are proven liars - over and over and over again. That's why.

When you dance with the devil you don't change the devil, he changes you.

 

I WOULD put faith in their ACTIONS. What are they doing? There's the truth if you choose to see.

 

Great post jwl!!

 

 

Actually Pureinheart, it's a very, very common story.

 

So, I'd wrap this up by saying that I believe that she was "in love" with her 'perception' of who she thought OM was. She was unable to see how much of that she didn't know, or refused to consider because of those "in love" feelings at the time. She was as much in love with the "in love feelings" as much as anything else.

 

She still loved me...but that was far overshadowed and overwhelmed by her "in love feelings" at the time.

 

Once OM was out of the picture, and she had time to start actually looking at herself, her actions, and our relationship and marriage...she could more clearly see what she'd been doing, and what she needed to do going forward.

 

Agree with you too Owl. I also think that many people in affairs aren't really involved in a 'true' relationship in regards to daily frustrations, decisions, schedules, etc. Affairs are secret meetings and lots of butterflies. It isn't dealing with barfing kids, dirty underwear (of either of the two involved in an affair), frustrations over not having money for bills, deciding whose turn it is to pick up the dog crap in the yard, forgetting to wash/dry/iron an important shirt, lack of sleep due to a colicky kid, pain from constipation, running out of Preparation H, etc.

 

Most people who date out in the open are seeing each other and dealing with each other IN MY MIND on a more 'normal' basis and not just meeting for sex or sending flirty texts to each other all day. They are integrating each other into the others life - out in the open.

[crazycatlady]

Once upon a time in life you come upon a fellow human being whose characteristics talk to you in a way no one has done before. Someone who thinks like you, who is like you, who is more similar to you than anyone ever has been before. Then you don't care if he is married. You just love him. And if you are lucky, he loves you back.

 

This is partly what happened with my H and my sister. They both got to know each other better without restraints not sure how you would put it really.....through emails while he was deployed. And it really seemed to him, probably to her (though again that's a guess, and I'm being generous today which feels so good to my soul) as well, that they were kindred spirits.... He even told me afterwards that the above quote is how he felt they were. He has always called me his balance, and he is mine in many ways, we are not kindred spirits.

 

However.....time in the light of day (aka dday for one and all) .... and ohhh not so kindred. He faced me, faced my intense heart breaking pain at betrayal on more then a few occassions when it hit me, he faces my distrust, my sadness, my insecurities, my anger etc. She ran and continues to run, though now and then tosses out little things to see if I will respond and things can go back to normal without her having to face me about what she did. That was a huge pause for him, that she hid from me, hid from him and left him to face me alone. And then there was the treatment of our child. That she would act like that also made him realize that the kindred....no really so.

 

I won't call it a fog. I fully believe his feelings for her (and possibly her for him) were truly there, and a part of him probably still feels something for her. However he did not see the TRUE her, not hiding it like they did. Had she been who he thought she was, then things would really have been difficult....well more then they already were.

 

CCL