what's wrong with saying...

[czecze]

Hmmm....

 

Have you ever asked your MM to wash undies that were soiled during your "time"?

 

Ever been in the bathroom when he's "dropped a bomb"?

 

Ever had to sit down for four hours in one evening to work out a new budget and agree on where to spend less because the two of you don't make the same amount of money that you did the past month?

 

Disagreed with how to discipline your child...and had to work out an "on the spot" solution to deal with that, while avoiding trying to argue about it in front of your kids?

 

Had to ask him for the umpteenth time to pick up his shoes that he left in the middle of the floor...and he always forgets and does it anyway?

 

Spent two weeks with him cramped in what amounts to a motel room...along with four kids? And then tried to figure out how to get the laundry done?

 

That's the difference between the 'fantasy' of what life together would be like and the reality of executing it long term.

again, generalization...

How do you know what Mp and AP shared? each case is different, I am not saying you are wrong, but you are for sure not 100% right...

MP may share with AP person things that they may not share with BS other than sex...Problems with boss, jobs, friends, or even their own families (because BS might disagree with such decision/thoughts), they might even have mutual friends they share with, and if it is a long term A, they would have many things to share over the years other than sex or the excitement of being in love! AP may very well see many short coming of MP just as BS does and may still decide to stay because of the mutual "sharing" involved regardless of the pain such A may cause.

[czecze]

 

A casual outside observer might conclude that your MM must be good at his game. I guess this is why even though I have been an AP, I just don't understand some of the thinking I see displayed here sometimes. I'm a man and this forum is dominated by women. I base a good deal of my advice to OW on behavior and comments that, as a man, I have seen and heard from other MM in real life.

 

So I have also known MMs in real life including in my own family (NOT MY MM, relatives/friends only), and what made you think all MM are like those you know?

In fact, many of the MPs actually D at the end in real live.

Can we respect that each person and each case is different rather than coming off telling others we know more about their lives than they who live it? That our experiences must apply to them also?

[czecze]

That would be ideal.

 

But people change and evolve and sometimes it happens that one is not the same person and one was 20 years before. And if a long-term partner has not followed the couple might not be as compatible as they once were any more.

yes...and this could be in any R.

[Myowntwofeet]

Hmmm....

 

Have you ever asked your MM to wash undies that were soiled during your "time"?

 

Ever been in the bathroom when he's "dropped a bomb"?

 

Ever had to sit down for four hours in one evening to work out a new budget and agree on where to spend less because the two of you don't make the same amount of money that you did the past month?

 

Disagreed with how to discipline your child...and had to work out an "on the spot" solution to deal with that, while avoiding trying to argue about it in front of your kids?

 

Had to ask him for the umpteenth time to pick up his shoes that he left in the middle of the floor...and he always forgets and does it anyway?

 

Spent two weeks with him cramped in what amounts to a motel room...along with four kids? And then tried to figure out how to get the laundry done?

 

That's the difference between the 'fantasy' of what life together would be like and the reality of executing it long term.

 

Owl, almost always - I really do enjoy your posts and they are normally fair and logical - which is a gift in these forums - but come on.. you can't be serious with this post?

 

It is the same " your AP could never possibly love you like a your W/H"

 

Just because I chose to have or participate in an affair does not mean I have no clue what actually happens in the real world, nor does it mean I didn't sit through panic attacks, tears, sleepless nights and many chats regarding what we we going to do.

 

I know my ex MM as well as his wife...sorry, I do. I have seen the tears, the challenges, the not so pretty, I am seen him ill and I have also seen him stressed with work, the kids and on top of it, both of us trying to deal with the dynamics of our relationship ( yes, fully self created)

 

Simply because we have good sex AND intimacy.... does not mean we don't have a clue what cleaning up after another one or arguing over fiances is about.

 

Talk about trying to make the AP look "lower".

 

Maybe some don't have a clue but I would bet at least 70% that you talk to here day to day know exactly what real life and a real relationship with their XMM or current MM is like.

[czecze]

This is partly what happened with my H and my sister. They both got to know each other better without restraints not sure how you would put it really.....through emails while he was deployed. And it really seemed to him, probably to her (though again that's a guess, and I'm being generous today which feels so good to my soul) as well, that they were kindred spirits.... He even told me afterwards that the above quote is how he felt they were. He has always called me his balance, and he is mine in many ways, we are not kindred spirits.

 

However.....time in the light of day (aka dday for one and all) .... and ohhh not so kindred. He faced me, faced my intense heart breaking pain at betrayal on more then a few occassions when it hit me, he faces my distrust, my sadness, my insecurities, my anger etc. She ran and continues to run, though now and then tosses out little things to see if I will respond and things can go back to normal without her having to face me about what she did. That was a huge pause for him, that she hid from me, hid from him and left him to face me alone. And then there was the treatment of our child. That she would act like that also made him realize that the kindred....no really so.

 

I won't call it a fog. I fully believe his feelings for her (and possibly her for him) were truly there, and a part of him probably still feels something for her. However he did not see the TRUE her, not hiding it like they did. Had she been who he thought she was, then things would really have been difficult....well more then they already were.

 

CCL

Just a thought, have you ever consider the possibility that your sis might run and hide from you because she does not want to affect the decision your H may make, that she" loves"( if I am allowed to use such word) him enough to let him choose and decide on his own without her being involved? Isn't it kind of like those advices people have been giving AP in this forum? to stay away?

But it does not mean she does not love him.

Sorry to say this, I know the pain you must be going through.

[turnstone]

Not the men I know (thank God)...I have been very fortunate not to have experienced this type of attitude and behavior even in the situations I've been in. They have been human, and have done human things and have messed up as I have.

 

Even in the "dynamic" sense I have never seen this attitude.

 

Well I have seen this attitude. Many OW on LS exhibit the dynamic, whether they realise it or not, and whether they admit it or not. And I wouldn't expect anything else.

 

Hmmm....

 

Have you ever asked your MM to wash undies that were soiled during your "time"?

 

Ever been in the bathroom when he's "dropped a bomb"?

 

Ever had to sit down for four hours in one evening to work out a new budget and agree on where to spend less because the two of you don't make the same amount of money that you did the past month?

 

Disagreed with how to discipline your child...and had to work out an "on the spot" solution to deal with that, while avoiding trying to argue about it in front of your kids?

 

Had to ask him for the umpteenth time to pick up his shoes that he left in the middle of the floor...and he always forgets and does it anyway?

 

Spent two weeks with him cramped in what amounts to a motel room...along with four kids? And then tried to figure out how to get the laundry done?

 

That's the difference between the 'fantasy' of what life together would be like and the reality of executing it long term.

 

As much as I agree (and wow, I agree wholeheartedly) that the nitty gritty that goes along with being married puts that relationship on a very different footing to an affair, I also think the very fact of being committed brings about a state of mind that can only be found when married - i.e. legally, morally, etc. committed to one person only.

 

For some that state of mind is actually liberating, if not all the time, certainly most of it; for others....... well, we've seen what it does for them.

 

I know there are a number of enabling factors in a person's choice to have an affair and I believe that this state of mind is one of them. Maybe it comes down to the simple thought of being 'trapped', maybe its something more complex.

 

Either way, the dynamic, the feeling, the actuality of being married is vastly different from the dynamic of being in an affair. And OW, some OW at least, can't stand that fact.

[czecze]

Either way, the dynamic, the feeling, the actuality of being married is vastly different from the dynamic of being in an affair. And OW, some OW at least, can't stand that fact.

It seems that many OW/OM in this forum are/were also married, so they must realized how the dynamic is like.

And even the dynamics are different, how can we assume their feelings are not real?

OR is it possible that the BS cannot stand the H/W actually have deep feelings for someone else and accept the fact that their H/W can actually share something different with another person that they could not share with BS? so they just belittle another person's feeling?

 

Your idea might apply to your case, it might very well be true for the situation you are involved in, but why assume everyone is the same?

[pureinheart]

Actually Pureinheart, it's a very, very common story. This is very close to what I saw in my wife's situation as well.

 

Before d-day, my wife insisted that OM was "just a friend".

 

On d-day, she admitted she was "falling in love with him, and out of love with (Owl)".

 

For the next several weeks, she teetered back and forth on who she was going to choose. She was finally forced to make a decision one way or another....by me.

 

For about a year afterwards, she insisted that she had been in love with OM, and what she had with him was "true love".

 

Then she, like me, spent a good bit of time learning a lot more about how love forms, what sustains it, etc... This was all part of our marriage counseling and individual counseling.

 

Now, she says "I have no idea what I was thinking".

 

Looking back, she can clearly see (now) that her thinking, her actions, and her perceptions at the time were very, very distorted. The people around her that loved her and cared for her (even those who didn't have a vested interest in our marriage) could see it and tried to help her to see it...but those blinders she had on prevented her from seeing it at the time.

 

So, I'd wrap this up by saying that I believe that she was "in love" with her 'perception' of who she thought OM was. She was unable to see how much of that she didn't know, or refused to consider because of those "in love" feelings at the time. She was as much in love with the "in love feelings" as much as anything else.

 

She still loved me...but that was far overshadowed and overwhelmed by her "in love feelings" at the time.

 

Once OM was out of the picture, and she had time to start actually looking at herself, her actions, and our relationship and marriage...she could more clearly see what she'd been doing, and what she needed to do going forward.

 

Hi Owl,

 

I missed a couple of pages...anyway, your description of your W's experience with OM doesnot (IMO) come close to the description of that seedy individual writing that article that NID "shared" with us. That individual (I use the word "individual" usually to describe a person that there is no description) had no class whatsoever and reminded me of those two-bit con artists that hang out in gutters.

[pureinheart]

Well I have seen this attitude. Many OW on LS exhibit the dynamic, whether they realise it or not, and whether they admit it or not. And I wouldn't expect anything else.

 

 

 

As much as I agree (and wow, I agree wholeheartedly) that the nitty gritty that goes along with being married puts that relationship on a very different footing to an affair, I also think the very fact of being committed brings about a state of mind that can only be found when married - i.e. legally, morally, etc. committed to one person only.

 

For some that state of mind is actually liberating, if not all the time, certainly most of it; for others....... well, we've seen what it does for them.

 

I know there are a number of enabling factors in a person's choice to have an affair and I believe that this state of mind is one of them. Maybe it comes down to the simple thought of being 'trapped', maybe its something more complex.

 

Either way, the dynamic, the feeling, the actuality of being married is vastly different from the dynamic of being in an affair. And OW, some OW at least, can't stand that fact.

 

How have you come to this conclusion?

[turnstone]

It seems that many OW/OM in this forum are/were also married, so they must realized how the dynamic is like.

And even the dynamics are different, how can we assume their feelings are not real?

OR is it possible that the BS cannot stand the H/W actually have deep feelings for someone else and accept the fact that their H/W can actually share something different with another person that they could not share with BS? so they just belittle another person's feeling?

 

Your idea might apply to your case, it might very well be true for the situation you are involved in, but why assume everyone is the same?

 

I don't assume anything, that's something I leave to others. For instance, I haven't said anywhere that the feelings an OP may have aren't 'real', but its very telling that you used that word. Likewise, I haven't belittled anything or anyone. In all instances I only make reference to the fact I believe marriage and affairs are very different dynamics.

 

How have you come to this conclusion?

Which conclusion? That some OW hate the fact the man has something with his wife that he doesn't have with her? My own experiences with four OW count for some and the rest, reading LS.

[czecze]

I don't assume anything, that's something I leave to others. For instance, I haven't said anywhere that the feelings an OP may have aren't 'real', but its very telling that you used that word. Likewise, I haven't belittled anything or anyone. In all instances I only make reference to the fact I believe marriage and affairs are very different dynamics.

 

Which conclusion? That some OW hate the fact the man has something with his wife that he doesn't have with her? My own experiences with four OW count for some and the rest, reading LS.

 

your experiences with 4 people, that would lead to you generalizing the rest of the world? I also read LS, I read differently than you.

If knowing 4 people would make you think the rest of the world is the same, is it not assumption?

I am not saying what you said is not true, it may very well APPLY to you or some people you know, but may not apply to everyone! By thinking you perception of the world is in fact how the world is for others, it is assumption!!

You do not live their lives, you do not know them, how can you use your own ideas and apply to the rest of the world.

[turnstone]

your experiences with 4 people, that would lead to you generalizing the rest of the world? I also read LS, I read differently than you.

If knowing 4 people would make you think the rest of the world is the same, is it not assumption?

I am not saying what you said is not true, it may very well APPLY to you or some people you know, but may not apply to everyone! By thinking you perception of the world is in fact how the world is for others, it is assumption!!

You do not live their lives, you do not know them, how can you use your own ideas and apply to the rest of the world.

 

Not just four OW, but LS too - there's plenty OW here. Unless you're saying that their stories are a bunch of fabrications?

 

You really believe that the dynamic of an affair can be the same as the dynamic of a marriage?

[czecze]

Not just four OW, but LS too - there's plenty OW here. Unless you're saying that their stories are a bunch of fabrications?

 

You really believe that the dynamic of an affair can be the same as the dynamic of a marriage?

are you saying all OW in LS cannot stand the dynamics is different between a A and a M? in every single post?

All I am saying is that the MP may share some with the BS and others with the AP, I take for example an A in the world place, where the MP actually spend more time with the AP and work closely together, they may talk about frustration at works, clients, colleagues,on top of that, may also share issues regarding their personal lives, and many of these they may not be able to share with BS, does it make this dynamics less valuable?

The dynamics in EVERY relationship is NOT THE SAME! regardless of they are M or A, but it does not make one better than the other!

[czecze]

Owl, almost always - I really do enjoy your posts and they are normally fair and logical - which is a gift in these forums - but come on.. you can't be serious with this post?

 

It is the same " your AP could never possibly love you like a your W/H"

 

Just because I chose to have or participate in an affair does not mean I have no clue what actually happens in the real world, nor does it mean I didn't sit through panic attacks, tears, sleepless nights and many chats regarding what we we going to do.

 

I know my ex MM as well as his wife...sorry, I do. I have seen the tears, the challenges, the not so pretty, I am seen him ill and I have also seen him stressed with work, the kids and on top of it, both of us trying to deal with the dynamics of our relationship ( yes, fully self created)

 

Simply because we have good sex AND intimacy.... does not mean we don't have a clue what cleaning up after another one or arguing over fiances is about.

 

Talk about trying to make the AP look "lower".

 

Maybe some don't have a clue but I would bet at least 70% that you talk to here day to day know exactly what real life and a real relationship with their XMM or current MM is like.

well written!

[jennie-jennie]

This is partly what happened with my H and my sister. They both got to know each other better without restraints not sure how you would put it really.....through emails while he was deployed. And it really seemed to him, probably to her (though again that's a guess, and I'm being generous today which feels so good to my soul) as well, that they were kindred spirits.... He even told me afterwards that the above quote is how he felt they were. He has always called me his balance, and he is mine in many ways, we are not kindred spirits.

 

However.....time in the light of day (aka dday for one and all) .... and ohhh not so kindred. He faced me, faced my intense heart breaking pain at betrayal on more then a few occassions when it hit me, he faces my distrust, my sadness, my insecurities, my anger etc. She ran and continues to run, though now and then tosses out little things to see if I will respond and things can go back to normal without her having to face me about what she did. That was a huge pause for him, that she hid from me, hid from him and left him to face me alone. And then there was the treatment of our child. That she would act like that also made him realize that the kindred....no really so.

 

I won't call it a fog. I fully believe his feelings for her (and possibly her for him) were truly there, and a part of him probably still feels something for her. However he did not see the TRUE her, not hiding it like they did. Had she been who he thought she was, then things would really have been difficult....well more then they already were.

 

CCL

 

I wouldn't call it a fog either. Their relationship just did not hold up to the long term test that all relationships have to go through. She was not who he thought she was. He was in love with his perception of her.

[In_Repair]

Seriously IR, is that what really goes on, are there a lot of guys out there that think and act like that? (being very serious and not sarcastic)

 

 

Sadly, yes. I'm not saying that all men are like this, obviously, but out of the fifteen or so regulars in my group of male friends, I would bet that at least five of them are currently in an affair, and I know for a fact that they have absolutely no intentions of ever leaving their wives.

[crazycatlady]

Just a thought, have you ever consider the possibility that your sis might run and hide from you because she does not want to affect the decision your H may make, that she" loves"( if I am allowed to use such word) him enough to let him choose and decide on his own without her being involved? Isn't it kind of like those advices people have been giving AP in this forum? to stay away?

But it does not mean she does not love him.

Sorry to say this, I know the pain you must be going through.

 

The pain is currently not there because I'm currently not haboring any bitterness towards my sister. See that's what I was trying to avoid when wanting to talk to her. I needed to air this so it didn't fester in me and she won't. And this will destroy our relationship in the long run. As for her being worried about affecting my H's decision, if he contacted her today, she would talk with him. Of that I am almost absolutely certain. If I contact her in any way but openly on FB (where she is "safe" because she now I won't out it on FB) I get ignored. I haven't tried a long written email or letter yet, going over everything I want to say because I don't want it to be onesided, I wanted to do it vocally if not face to face because its harder to misunderstand communication that way then it is written.

 

 

I wouldn't call it a fog either. Their relationship just did not hold up to the long term test that all relationships have to go through. She was not who he thought she was. He was in love with his perception of her.

 

The part I bolded I think can apply to alot of relationships. But I think it was more he was in love with who he wanted or even needed her to be. I still think the affair (both the emotional that he dealt with just fine and the physical which he didn't do so well with) was partly conflict avoidance, and partly escapism.

 

CCL

[Owl]

Owl, almost always - I really do enjoy your posts and they are normally fair and logical - which is a gift in these forums - but come on.. you can't be serious with this post?

 

It is the same " your AP could never possibly love you like a your W/H"

 

 

You raise a valid point.

 

My intent wasn't to say that the marriage was BETTER than the affair relationiship, or that they couldn't possibly love each other.

 

My intent was to indicate that when the WS is mentally comparing the two relationships (and they will, it's inevitable), the marriage appears less appealing for all those examples that I cited.

 

The affair "seems" more attractive because that level of "reality" hasn't hit yet.

 

Now...that level of reality NEVER hits in any kind of relationship (affair or otherwise) UNTIL the two share that kind of time living together. So I'm not 'knocking" the affair relationship nor saying that they can't love each other.

 

What I'm saying is that when that comparison is made by the WS...this is part of the "difference" that makes the marriage LESS attractive in their eyes than the affair...and it's not something that they tend to truly think about out consciously (because of those "in love" blinders that are normally in place).

 

It's apples and oranges. That was my intent...not to disparage anyone here.

 

I cited specific details that provide "examples" of what I was talking about because someone was commenting about this being a generalization. In fact, I asked very similar questions to my wife and her OM when SHE was doing this same mentail comparison.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Owl

[OWoman]

Hmmm....

 

Have you ever asked your MM to wash undies that were soiled during your "time"?

 

Ever been in the bathroom when he's "dropped a bomb"?

 

Ever had to sit down for four hours in one evening to work out a new budget and agree on where to spend less because the two of you don't make the same amount of money that you did the past month?

 

Disagreed with how to discipline your child...and had to work out an "on the spot" solution to deal with that, while avoiding trying to argue about it in front of your kids?

 

Had to ask him for the umpteenth time to pick up his shoes that he left in the middle of the floor...and he always forgets and does it anyway?

 

Spent two weeks with him cramped in what amounts to a motel room...along with four kids? And then tried to figure out how to get the laundry done?

 

That's the difference between the 'fantasy' of what life together would be like and the reality of executing it long term.

 

Owl, not all Rs (of any kind!) have to involve the grossest kind of enforced "intimacy". It's perfectly possible to live together without shoving your body waste in someone else's face, and it's perfectly possible for partners to be considerate of each others needs and NOT revert to irritating habits, even when living together full-time! I realise your point was:

 

Now...that level of reality NEVER hits in any kind of relationship (affair or otherwise) UNTIL the two share that kind of time living together.

 

but it's possible even in long-term Ms (of several decades long) for there to be basic respect and consideration. And, personally, I prefer to maintain a bit of "mystique" in my Rs - while my H knows perfectly well that I shave my legs, it's not something he gets to see me do! If I wouldn't pick my nose in front of a perfect stranger on a train, why shouldn't my H be entitled to at least that same common level of courtesy and respect??)

 

But to get back to your intended point - that people don't get to see the "reality" until down the line:

 

My H and I used to live together for longer periods of time during the A, up to several months at a time. That's not unheard of in As - some OW are "second Ws" for MMs who work away from their family home, or whose work schedule allows them to maintain a second life somewhere else. Some As are extremely unromantic, featuring more vomit and mess than roses and champagne - perhaps because those just happen to be the circumstances, or perhaps because the MM actively seeks out a damsel in distress for his knight in shining armour to rescue - whatever. Point is, a lot of As have that exposure to "reality" built into them.

 

And even in Ms - it's perfectly possible to maintain the glossy veneer throughout the "honeymoon period" of up to three years, before the blinkers start to fall from their eyes and the bad habits start to creep in. Living together 24 / 7 is no guarantee of "reality" either, until wayyy down the line... and even then. The papers are full of stories of confused spouses who discover - often on the death of their spouse, or the policeman's knock on the door - that their spouse had a hidden life about which they knew nothing.

 

If you can hide being a serial killer from your spouse, you can almost certainly maintain a charming facade which includes putting your shoes away and not farting in company.

 

It's not the status of the R, but the nature of the R, that determines the extent of "reality" vs "romance"....

[OWoman]

You really believe that the dynamic of an affair can be the same as the dynamic of a marriage?

 

 

Yes. I speak from experience, not just because "I've had As, and Ms" - so have many others - but because I've had an A and an M with the same person. What matters is the person, and the dynamic between you, and not the status of the R.

 

It's the nature of the R, and not its legal status, that makes the difference.

[czecze]

Yes. I speak from experience, not just because "I've had As, and Ms" - so have many others - but because I've had an A and an M with the same person. What matters is the person, and the dynamic between you, and not the status of the R.

 

It's the nature of the R, and not its legal status, that makes the difference.

Yes, here is an EX-OW from LS speaking of her own experiences!

and I cannot agree with her more on all her points!

[lovefromgirl]

Even in an above-board relationship, albeit one that is semi-LD:

 

Hmmm....

 

Have you ever asked your MM to wash undies that were soiled during your "time"?

 

*cough* We do wash our own soiled underthings...

 

Ever been in the bathroom when he's "dropped a bomb"?

 

We give each other the choice. Be there for the stink or don't!

 

Ever had to sit down for four hours in one evening to work out a new budget and agree on where to spend less because the two of you don't make the same amount of money that you did the past month?

 

Living apart means we juggle our own budgets for the most part; we do have conversations about what we spend together, of course.

 

Disagreed with how to discipline your child...

 

There will never be children due to my health and our mutual preferences.

 

Had to ask him for the umpteenth time to pick up his shoes that he left in the middle of the floor...and he always forgets and does it anyway?

 

More like reminding each other to take meds ("Honey, go shoot up now").

 

Just a reminder that even healthy relationships look different from the statistical norm!

[NoIDidn't]

Most of the previous posts have nothing to do with the topic of "what's wrong with saying that the MP loved the OP?"

 

Again, I still think there is nothing wrong with saying it - whether its actually true or not.

[White Flower]

Yep, it looked to me like a MM having an A speaking of OW....wow...I seriously doubt any of the OW I have known in my life or on this web site would subject themselves to what the article actually depicted.

 

To me, both the OW and W need to rid themselves of this individual...he has absolutely no respect for human beings in any way, shape, or form.

 

I personally have never had a personal R with this type and never would.

I read the article to MM to get his POV. The one thing that WAS plausible was the idea that a MM could be fighting/facing death every time he is 'with' OW. The, 'Is This All There Is' (in M life) can be cause for cheating alone. It's like one day they wake up and say, 'S***, this is as good as it gets...I better make life more exciting', in a nutshell. Not all MM, but some. Other than that, I was able to shoot down many of the ideas the author suggested and MM backed it up with further shoot-downs. But I'm not upset that NID posted the link. I did spend some time pondering it.

 

 

 

I think it's hilarious that someone linked the article where the man is describing how a MM "plays" his OW to make her believe what he wants her to believe so he can keep getting the royal treatment... and then all of you OW immediately perk up and say how that isn't the case in your affair. Not throwing stones at anyone in particular, so don't get your panties in a wad, it's just funny.

 

A casual outside observer might conclude that your MM must be good at his game. I guess this is why even though I have been an AP, I just don't understand some of the thinking I see displayed here sometimes. I'm a man and this forum is dominated by women. I base a good deal of my advice to OW on behavior and comments that, as a man, I have seen and heard from other MM in real life.

Oh, I'm sure it is true in many cases. I can accept that MM treated his exOW this way and I'll even agree that he might have once treated me that way. He'd disagree, but I'll stand by that statement. He just didn't love me then like he loves me now. For that reason, I can overcome the past and move on. Just as time can heal things within a M it can also heal things in an A.

 

Hmmm....

 

Have you ever asked your MM to wash undies that were soiled during your "time"?

 

Ever been in the bathroom when he's "dropped a bomb"?

 

Ever had to sit down for four hours in one evening to work out a new budget and agree on where to spend less because the two of you don't make the same amount of money that you did the past month?

 

Disagreed with how to discipline your child...and had to work out an "on the spot" solution to deal with that, while avoiding trying to argue about it in front of your kids?

 

Had to ask him for the umpteenth time to pick up his shoes that he left in the middle of the floor...and he always forgets and does it anyway?

 

Spent two weeks with him cramped in what amounts to a motel room...along with four kids? And then tried to figure out how to get the laundry done?

 

That's the difference between the 'fantasy' of what life together would be like and the reality of executing it long term.

When the A becomes longterm, we get to see a lot! Just today he had to get off the phone to take a dookie. He would have never said that to me in the beginning!

 

He has surprised me by dropping in unexpectedly, seeing me in my house-cleaing clothes. He's seen me garden and I've seen him in coveralls all greased up from replacing my brakes.

 

On a slightly different note, but kind of the same:rolleyes:, we're connected in ways that are unbelievable. I haven't vomitted in 20 years, but a couple of months back I had a virus and suffered Montezuma's Revenge something awful. MM got food poisoning on the same day. We both vomitted all night long only we were apart. When he called me up to say what a horrible night it had been I just couldn't believe it, because my night was exactly the same. Just thought I'd share that attractive tidbit.

 

Once upon a time in life you come upon a fellow human being whose characteristics talk to you in a way no one has done before. Someone who thinks like you, who is like you, who is more similar to you than anyone ever has been before. Then you don't care if he is married. You just love him. And if you are lucky, he loves you back.

Nice.

And if EVERYONE is real lucky...he's not married nor made vows/promises/built a life with someone else!

We make our own luck.

That would be ideal.

 

But people change and evolve and sometimes it happens that one is not the same person and one was 20 years before. And if a long-term partner has not followed the couple might not be as compatible as they once were any more.

Agreed.

Owl, almost always - I really do enjoy your posts and they are normally fair and logical - which is a gift in these forums - but come on.. you can't be serious with this post?

 

It is the same " your AP could never possibly love you like a your W/H"

 

Just because I chose to have or participate in an affair does not mean I have no clue what actually happens in the real world, nor does it mean I didn't sit through panic attacks, tears, sleepless nights and many chats regarding what we we going to do.

 

I know my ex MM as well as his wife...sorry, I do. I have seen the tears, the challenges, the not so pretty, I am seen him ill and I have also seen him stressed with work, the kids and on top of it, both of us trying to deal with the dynamics of our relationship ( yes, fully self created)

 

Simply because we have good sex AND intimacy.... does not mean we don't have a clue what cleaning up after another one or arguing over fiances is about.

 

Talk about trying to make the AP look "lower".

 

Maybe some don't have a clue but I would bet at least 70% that you talk to here day to day know exactly what real life and a real relationship with their XMM or current MM is like.

Just to add to your post, I was once M so I know all the ins and outs of everything Owl posted. Why would I forget those things once I was in an A. Did MM wave some magical wand over me and make me forget? Nope. I know what I'd be in for and I would gladly do all those things for him and more. I know he would for me too. The difficult thing is getting there, not the being there.

 

Well I have seen this attitude. Many OW on LS exhibit the dynamic, whether they realise it or not, and whether they admit it or not. And I wouldn't expect anything else.

I think most OW are pretty transparent; otherwise, why would they be posting their secret A all over the internet? It just doesn't jive with what your'e saying. I think you see what you want to see.

Either way, the dynamic, the feeling, the actuality of being married is vastly different from the dynamic of being in an affair. And OW, some OW at least, can't stand that fact.

An A is an actual R. I think it is you who can't stand that fact.

 

Which conclusion? That some OW hate the fact the man has something with his wife that he doesn't have with her? My own experiences with four OW count for some and the rest, reading LS.

And many MM have something with their OW that they don't have with their W.

Most of the previous posts have nothing to do with the topic of "what's wrong with saying that the MP loved the OP?"

 

Again, I still think there is nothing wrong with saying it - whether its actually true or not.

Well, you're the one who posted the interesting link sweetheart. But it did make for a very interesting thread. I can see where it kind of related, in that some MM just lie to the OW and that some OW just don't take their word for it. Conversely, some do. To tie this in with the OP, I suppose if the OP knows the MP well enough they can read into the truth behind the, 'I just need to try to work on the M'. He/she either challenges the statement or accepts it.

 

I just wonder why WW has a hard time with the statement being challenged. Isn't it fair to say that for some the A is worth fighting for if the AP believes it is a better R than the M, especially given that the MP claimed that to be true all along? If the AP understands the underlying fears of the MP and believes he can help her overcome certain obstacles?

 

I suppose this will be an issue of 'M is a sacrament' and should be respected MORE since it is legal. But some of us believe love should be respected more than legalities.

 

By the way, if MM ever told me he wanted to work on the M, I'd have no problem accepting it. I'm just here to argue the question:cool:

[NoIDidn't]

I don't think that most MM love their OW. I think they love the way that they are viewed by her and the way that they feel when they are with her, but I don't think that they love her.

 

But, like I said in my first post in this thread - I think the question of was it love or not is irrevelant if the A is over and the OW is no longer with the MM. Pondering such things can be seen as obsessing - especially when the A is over.

 

It seems that many want to believe a R was based on love because it makes them feel less like they wasted their effort or time in it.

 

The article I posted said something about "self-deception". Regardless of the points disagreed with by some posters, its the "self-deception" that I think the author was right about. I've seen it too much, here and IRL.

 

I think OPs do themselves a disservice when they focus on whether or not the MP loved them.