what's wrong with saying...

[turnstone]

Yes, apologies, NID for my off topic stuff.

 

I too think its largely irrelevant whether or not the MM actually loves the OW or his wife, although I think its irrelevant when the affair is ongoing as well as when the affair is over, what he does is what hurts or not.

 

Whiteflower - unfortunately in my marriage, I had all too much of what he had in his affairs (which, by the way, I've never denied were relationships )

[White Flower]

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

What I find most interesting about this question is how BS (or non OP:)) are receiving it. It would appear that, in this case, they want us (OP) to accept MP's word for it.

 

But usually, they're quite happy to remind us that if he/she is lying to their spouse, surely anything and everything they say to us is a lie as well. Wouldn't this include the words spoken during a breakup?

 

And I'm supposed to take his word for it? I guess I'm confused.

 

 

(WW, I'm only saying this for the sake of argument, not that I'm taking it literally, I like this topic:cool:)

 

Also, the decision was made 'based on many factors'. Sometimes the OP is filled in on the factors, not the BS, and sometimes a D-day arrives before plans could be implemented. In this case, I can see where a NC call shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

 

 

I don't think that most MM love their OW. I think they love the way that they are viewed by her and the way that they feel when they are with her, but I don't think that they love her.

 

But, like I said in my first post in this thread - I think the question of was it love or not is irrevelant if the A is over and the OW is no longer with the MM. Pondering such things can be seen as obsessing - especially when the A is over.

I think it's much easier for the BS to see things so black and white as 'it's over'. If your H left you today, would it be over for you? I don't think so. Whether it's a M or an A, and R is hard to get over.

 

But I agree with you on the obsessing thing. What a waste of time.

 

It seems that many want to believe a R was based on love because it makes them feel less like they wasted their effort or time in it.

I'm sure this is a valid point for many. Some MM just know how to lie and some OW are delusional, we must accept that. But not all. Some of us know real love when we see it. Again, this isn't to suggest we obsess over a breakup but I know the difference between fighting for love and giving up because it was a fun fling.

 

The article I posted said something about "self-deception". Regardless of the points disagreed with by some posters, its the "self-deception" that I think the author was right about. I've seen it too much, here and IRL.

 

I think OPs do themselves a disservice when they focus on whether or not the MP loved them.

Good points.

Yes, apologies, NID for my off topic stuff.

 

I too think its largely irrelevant whether or not the MM actually loves the OW or his wife, although I think its irrelevant when the affair is ongoing as well as when the affair is over, what he does is what hurts or not.

 

Whiteflower - unfortunately in my marriage, I had all too much of what he had in his affairs (which, by the way, I've never denied were relationships )

Sorry to hear it. It must have been very difficult.

[NoIDidn't]

I think it's much easier for the BS to see things so black and white as 'it's over'. If your H left you today, would it be over for you? I don't think so. Whether it's a M or an A, and R is hard to get over.

 

Why does everything disagreed with on this forum always have to be delineated by betrayed vs. OPs? Its so easy to say "yeah, you only feel that way because he didn't leave you". And that's besides the point. I was fully prepared to go on without him. And I wouldn't be in a position of wondering if he ever loved me because I wasn't just some run of the mill OP (the usual "If it wasn't me, it would be someone else" considered here), I am his W. I know he loved me, at least once upon a time - he married me.

 

Over is over to me, whether married to the guy or his OW. Its over, move along - nothing to see here. That's just the way that I do things.

 

I'm sure this is a valid point for many. Some MM just know how to lie and some OW are delusional, we must accept that. But not all. Some of us know real love when we see it. Again, this isn't to suggest we obsess over a breakup but I know the difference between fighting for love and giving up because it was a fun fling.

 

I didn't get from the OP that the question was about fighting for the MP if there was assumed to be love. I understood the OP to be asking if it why some posters here want to argue about the possibility that the MP loves their spouse that they are betraying, or that the MP loves the OP they are cheating with. You'll have to show me where the OP was asking about fighting for love, I missed that if its there at all.

 

I admit I have been rather one-sided in my answers on this, because like everyone else, I have focused only on the argument as it relates to OPs.

[OWoman]

If it's purely academic whether he once loved the OW once the A is over and he's happily ensconced within the bosom of the M once more, it would similarly be purely academic whether he once loved the BW once the M is over and he's happily ensconced with the OW... but I don't see too many OWs who landed up with their MMs crowing around that the MM never really loved the BW and that that was all just "fog" which he quickly shook off in the presence of the "real deal" and muttered, "what was I thinking?".

 

If we can be mature enough to accept the possibility that he did once love the BW, I can't see why it's such a stretch for some BWs to accept that the MM also once loved the OW. (I'm not claiming all BWs deny this; nor am I claiming that all MMs love their OW. But chances are, in an A that's lasted several years, he's not just there for an easy lay - which he could get more easily at home, or on the street corner, on in his local, if that was all he wanted.)

[BB07]

I personally don't think that most MM/MW are going to risk all that is required to risk in a long term affair unless they fancy themselves in love. They may later look back and think it wasn't love, but at the time, they think it is.

[OWoman]

I know he loved me' date=' at least once upon a time - he married me.[/quote']

 

Not all Ms are for love.

[Ellin]

I don't think that most MM love their OW. I think they love the way that they are viewed by her and the way that they feel when they are with her, but I don't think that they love her.

.

By the same rule most MM don't love their Ws, they just love the security and respect of being married; otherwise they wouldn't cheat...

 

If you say A, be prepared to say B...

[bentnotbroken]

By the same rule most MM don't love their Ws, they just love the security and respect of being married; otherwise they wouldn't cheat...

 

If you say A, be prepared to say B...

 

 

They love themselves(WW too)more than anything or anyone. OF course there always exceptions to every rule.

[Ellin]

They love themselves(WW too)more than anything or anyone. OF course there always exceptions to every rule.

I wouldn't say it has anything to do with what love actually means. More like immature personality or emotional conflicts.

[whichwayisup]

What matters is the person, and the dynamic between you, and not the status of the R.

 

That's fine if both people are enjoying the affair as JUST an affair. Problem is, most OW fall for their MM and start to have hopes and expectations, get very attached, and need to feel like the A is going to lead to a future, that MM will leave and divorce..

[bentnotbroken]

I wouldn't say it has anything to do with what love actually means. More like immature personality or emotional conflicts.

 

 

We agree there. Most don't have the maturity level of stick of gum to know what real love is.

[pureinheart]

Not just four OW, but LS too - there's plenty OW here. Unless you're saying that their stories are a bunch of fabrications?

 

You really believe that the dynamic of an affair can be the same as the dynamic of a marriage?

 

Hi TS,

 

I don't know your history, so forgive me on that end...you mentioned "4" OW, is this your H your speaking of?

 

In bold...not to offend BS's...although in my experience, having worked around people having A's left and right...the A dynamic in most cases that I witnessed were more the dynamic of a M.

 

TS, every group of people is different...what I witnessed on my side of the country, state, county etc. can be different an hour away.

[pureinheart]

Which conclusion? That some OW hate the fact the man has something with his wife that he doesn't have with her? My own experiences with four OW count for some and the rest, reading LS.

 

Most of what I have read and experienced as the BS, I didn't want what I had/was given and left.

 

Concerning exDM, I never wanted what his W had...I always have wanted my own stuff...

[pureinheart]

Owl, almost always - I really do enjoy your posts and they are normally fair and logical - which is a gift in these forums - but come on.. you can't be serious with this post?

 

It is the same " your AP could never possibly love you like a your W/H"

 

Just because I chose to have or participate in an affair does not mean I have no clue what actually happens in the real world, nor does it mean I didn't sit through panic attacks, tears, sleepless nights and many chats regarding what we we going to do.

 

I know my ex MM as well as his wife...sorry, I do. I have seen the tears, the challenges, the not so pretty, I am seen him ill and I have also seen him stressed with work, the kids and on top of it, both of us trying to deal with the dynamics of our relationship ( yes, fully self created)

 

Simply because we have good sex AND intimacy.... does not mean we don't have a clue what cleaning up after another one or arguing over fiances is about.

 

Talk about trying to make the AP look "lower".

 

Maybe some don't have a clue but I would bet at least 70% that you talk to here day to day know exactly what real life and a real relationship with their XMM or current MM is like.

 

This is the truth in my case...ESPECIALLY with exDM and me being as good friends as we were...I saw the good, bad and the very ugly of him and the real world.

 

Still in agreement with Owl that there are some differences, although in my case exDM took care of most of everything...

 

You know how you hear (in most cases that I have seen) that when the W leaves the H falls apart, bills don't get paid, house goes to ****, etc. ...well in this case it was the other way around.

 

I was the one exDM leaned on, he didn't trust his W, they never talked...actually they lived separate lives.

[pureinheart]

Sadly, yes. I'm not saying that all men are like this, obviously, but out of the fifteen or so regulars in my group of male friends, I would bet that at least five of them are currently in an affair, and I know for a fact that they have absolutely no intentions of ever leaving their wives.

 

 

You say "bet", and when guys say that they know for sure...lol....

 

Ok, these are your friends, personally I can't see you hanging with people who are as seedy and uncaring as the individual depicted in the article (I say depicted because that person is not real, and a horrible example of humanity, even if he is).

 

If they are IR, I would either find new friends, or keep a REALLY safe distance IMO...

[In_Repair]

I personally don't think that most MM/MW are going to risk all that is required to risk in a long term affair unless they fancy themselves in love. They may later look back and think it wasn't love, but at the time, they think it is.

 

See, from reading here that seems to be another misconception that OW, in particular, usually harbor. When using the word "risk" you have to consider the severity of the punishment that might follow. I have a very good friend, that I look up to in many ways - other than the cheating, who currently has two long term OW. He has been with his wife since high school, and he is now almost fifty. She isn't going to leave, and he certainly doesn't want her to. He doesn't honestly love any of the OW he has had, but he keeps them around until they become a potential "problem". It's common.

 

I will admit that this attitude is a minority in the affair world, and most are more conventional, but there are plenty of men and women out there who operate like this. Do you think that they are going to be honest and tell their long term APs that they really don't care about them? Or that they will be dumped as soon as they want more than an affair? Of course not, their APs hear the same promises and sweet talk that every other AP hears. Otherwise, it would be hard for them to hang onto one for very long. So... how do you know which kind you really have until you either force their hand or they leave the marriage on their own?

[White Flower]

First, I question how a WS can fall in love, and then 'simply' decide they actually had love in their M after all. Possible? Yes, but worth further discussion because if they had love why did they seek it elsewhere to begin with?

 

 

...that. the WS spouse fell in love with another, and then simply decided they had love in their M worth working on rather than abandoning a life work.

 

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

They probably loved both, and made a life choice based on many factors.

 

I feel no bad feeling knowing xMOM stayed with his W for love. That seems entirely natural.

 

I also feel he was with me briefly for love.

 

What I find hard is either OW/OM saying the WS doesn't love the BS but stays, and equally the BS saying the WS does not love the OW/OM and it's only fog. A minimizing tactic.

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

She also addressed the issue of BS minimizing love feelings by calling it FOG but nobody seemed to jump on that bit.

 

But I wasn't entirely frustrated by the questions as much as how some posters, who tend to be BS, just want the OP to shrug it off.

Why does everything disagreed with on this forum always have to be delineated by betrayed vs. OPs? Its so easy to say "yeah, you only feel that way because he didn't leave you". And that's besides the point. I was fully prepared to go on without him. And I wouldn't be in a position of wondering if he ever loved me because I wasn't just some run of the mill OP (the usual "If it wasn't me, it would be someone else" considered here), I am his W. I know he loved me, at least once upon a time - he married me.

 

Over is over to me, whether married to the guy or his OW. Its over, move along - nothing to see here. That's just the way that I do things.

Just because you can doesn't mean all people can. Not even MP. And I'll repeat once again, if MM told me hey, I think I actually love my W afterall and we need to end the A, trust me I would NOT ever contact him again. I wish I could get him to post on her about that fact because when I had suspected certain things I called him and told him it was over unless a, b, and c and did not answer calls until I got a,b, and c. But that is beside the point.

 

I didn't get from the OP that the question was about fighting for the MP if there was assumed to be love. I understood the OP to be asking if it why some posters here want to argue about the possibility that the MP loves their spouse that they are betraying, or that the MP loves the OP they are cheating with. You'll have to show me where the OP was asking about fighting for love, I missed that if its there at all.

 

I admit I have been rather one-sided in my answers on this, because like everyone else, I have focused only on the argument as it relates to OPs.

I disagree. WW states:

Why is there so much discussion about whether they really loved AP or BS?

 

Why can't we take them at their word?

Fighting for love and/while not accepting their words of love for the BS can be very similar things, especially if you were told that the love you shared was much deeper and more meaningful than the M love. She is asking posters who happen to be involved in the triangle for their knowledge and experience. If I've never been a BS, CS, or an OW I wouldn't be qualified to post about it.

[wheelwright]

If we suspected their word was the truth then we'd have no problem with it.

 

But many of us really know some crazy inside stuff. I know he doesn't love her and I know he has fears that he has a hard time overcoming. If I know this, then I'm going to have a problem with him staying with her because I for one could not stay in a loveless M. I think it is cruel to her, it is cruel to me, and it is cruel to himself. How can I stand in silence when I believe there is cruelty going on?

 

I can imagine the posts going off in all sorts of off-topic ways since I stated that, but that is the jist of it. If I believed for a minute that he really loved her I would have no problem watching him stay put. To me, love is to be honored more than the institution of M. I think deep down most of us feel that way, even if we don't admit it.

 

I agree. But at this point, I don't know how to. In a practical way.

[wheelwright]

bed.

 

I think it's so sad. Betrayal makes you second guess even yourself.

 

GEL

 

Your post made me think of you.

 

I really like bolded.

[wheelwright]

I thought it was far more common for the WS to deny loving both? I thought generally they did the minimising and the fact we (the BS and the OW/OM) believe them is more the issue. Because they tell the AP the marriage is all but dead but they have a list of practical reasons they cannot leave, and the BS is told that the AP means nothing and it was all a big error of judgement and turns out they loved the BS all along. There's a BS here (I forget who -apologies) who wished her H could confess to loving the OW or something near it, because the existence of the A would make more sense, but her H never could state that to be the case.

 

I would so hate this to have been the case.

[wheelwright]

My fWH has never ever pretended he didn't love his OW with whom he had an A lasting several years. I have never suggested he didn't.

 

While I did not know of the A he felt he was able to continue with both relationships. Me because I didn't know and she because she accepted it.

 

On d-day I made it clear that a decision to try to continue with both would mean he would only have one of us - and that would have been her because i would have left.

 

My H is a logical person. At one stage a few months after d-day he tried to draw up a "pros and cons" list of us staying together. Naturally it came out on the side of us staying together. "Lifelong and enduring love and soulmates" were a features of his list as I recall.

 

Perhaps he mentally went through a similar process at d-day in deciding whether he would try to keep both of us going , (which would have meant continuing to lie to and betray me), or choosing on e or other of us. He was lucky I suppose to have that choice.

 

He was lucky, and out of his mind at the same time.

 

i'm sure you're partner loves you, and more importantly you are sure.

 

My xMOM knew his M had gone wrong. At the height of our A he asked me to draw up a list of what I wanted him to do to keep it all tip top between us. I said nothing, just be himself.

 

He went home, started to reconcile, and asked his BS the same list question. She asked for him to surprise her. Hence DDay?

 

He literally got off on our love, and then went and tried to rejuvinate his M once he remembered what love was.

 

I think my xMOM was logical also.

[SidLyon]

He was lucky, and out of his mind at the same time.

 

i'm sure you're partner loves you, and more importantly you are sure.

 

My xMOM knew his M had gone wrong. At the height of our A he asked me to draw up a list of what I wanted him to do to keep it all tip top between us. I said nothing, just be himself.

 

He went home, started to reconcile, and asked his BS the same list question. She asked for him to surprise her. Hence DDay?

 

He literally got off on our love, and then went and tried to rejuvinate his M once he remembered what love was.

 

I think my xMOM was logical also.

 

I have posted over on Infidelity about the latest developments.

 

Me and my fWH are both a bit stunned right now. Him because he now sees that he wasn't the only MM the OW had and was actually in an unknown competition with the other MM for the OW. He described it a few hours ago as "not being so special as he thought". He also (rather gallantly I thought) described himself as having won the prize and the other MM the booby prize. Well perhaps not so gallant as it doesn't exactly flatter the OW.

 

He says it doesn't change his feelings for her at the time but makes him feel far less guilty now about throwing her under the bus on d-day. As I've posted in the other thread there was a d-day about 3 weeks before ours with the OW and the other MM. In other words she went through 2 d-days with both her MM within 3 weeks of each other. The sad thing is the other MM left his BW for the OW about 2 months after their d-day.

 

From talking to the other MM today he is also floundering around coming to grips with this all. Me, my fWH and the other BW are all flabbergasted!

[wheelwright]

You raise a valid point.

 

My intent wasn't to say that the marriage was BETTER than the affair relationiship, or that they couldn't possibly love each other.

 

My intent was to indicate that when the WS is mentally comparing the two relationships (and they will, it's inevitable), the marriage appears less appealing for all those examples that I cited.

 

The affair "seems" more attractive because that level of "reality" hasn't hit yet.

 

Now...that level of reality NEVER hits in any kind of relationship (affair or otherwise) UNTIL the two share that kind of time living together. So I'm not 'knocking" the affair relationship nor saying that they can't love each other.

 

What I'm saying is that when that comparison is made by the WS...this is part of the "difference" that makes the marriage LESS attractive in their eyes than the affair...and it's not something that they tend to truly think about out consciously (because of those "in love" blinders that are normally in place).

 

It's apples and oranges. That was my intent...not to disparage anyone here.

 

I cited specific details that provide "examples" of what I was talking about because someone was commenting about this being a generalization. In fact, I asked very similar questions to my wife and her OM when SHE was doing this same mentail comparison.

 

I like your posts Owl, and clearly your name has been earned.

 

It is apples and oranges. And at DDay that's the way it stays, if WS stays in the M.

 

But all people in a love A begin like this -apples to the oranges of longevity.

 

And sometimes, at the beginning of a R, we have an intimation that this particular orange, should it ever ripen, will be sweet and beautiful. The tree looks right, the leaves are luscious, the soil rich.

 

Having tasted sweetened and ripe fruit for many years in your M, despite a bad year in there, you have a right to consider this tree worth tending. Indeed, you talk of sweetness in your M now.

 

But the APs who sees the potential of another tree, that they feel will have exceptional fruit (especially if they both believe that the fruit at home is bitter) could happily tend that tree, while not entirely giving up on the old tree whose fruit was once sweet enough for the WS. Both know that old orchards have bad years, may continue to bear fruit.

 

I guess that's why I mean the A love is not just fog. And neither is the M dead - even if the soil hasn't been fed recently.

 

The WS decides to give up their 'stake' in one or other venture eventually, because they know where the future sweetness (love I hope, rather than money) most likely, lays.

Edited August 14, 2010 by wheelwright
add

[wheelwright]

I like your posts Owl, and clearly your name has been earned.

 

It is apples and oranges. And at DDay that's the way it stays, if WS stays in the M.

 

But all people in a love A begin like this -apples to the oranges of longevity.

 

And sometimes, at the beginning of a R, we have an intimation that this particular orange, should it ever ripen, will be sweet and beautiful. The tree looks right, the leaves are luscious, the soil rich.

 

Having tasted sweetened and ripe fruit for many years in your M, despite a bad year in there, you have a right to consider this tree worth tending. Indeed, you talk of sweetness in your M now.

 

But the APs who sees the potential of another tree, that they feel will have exceptional fruit (especially if they both believe that the fruit at home is bitter) could happily tend that tree, while not entirely giving up on the old tree whose fruit was once sweet enough for the WS. Both know that old orchards have bad years, may continue to bear fruit.

 

I guess that's why I mean the A love is not just fog. And neither is the M dead - even if the soil hasn't been fed recently.

 

The WS decides to give up their 'stake' in one or other venture eventually, because they know where the future sweetness (love I hope, rather than money) most likely, lays.

 

 

I just realised I am not saying apples and oranges here, but newly fruiting trees towards grown fruiting trees.

 

Should the latter still bear sweet fruit, then why switch?

 

And that is the question. Not apples and oranges, but sweet fruit versus bitter.

 

A MP or AP could yield either.

[wheelwright]

First, I question how a WS can fall in love, and then 'simply' decide they actually had love in their M after all. Possible? Yes, but worth further discussion because if they had love why did they seek it elsewhere to begin with?

 

She also addressed the issue of BS minimizing love feelings by calling it FOG but nobody seemed to jump on that bit.

 

But I wasn't entirely frustrated by the questions as much as how some posters, who tend to be BS, just want the OP to shrug it off.

Just because you can doesn't mean all people can. Not even MP. And I'll repeat once again, if MM told me hey, I think I actually love my W afterall and we need to end the A, trust me I would NOT ever contact him again. I wish I could get him to post on her about that fact because when I had suspected certain things I called him and told him it was over unless a, b, and c and did not answer calls until I got a,b, and c. But that is beside the point.

 

I disagree. WW states:

Fighting for love and/while not accepting their words of love for the BS can be very similar things, especially if you were told that the love you shared was much deeper and more meaningful than the M love. She is asking posters who happen to be involved in the triangle for their knowledge and experience. If I've never been a BS, CS, or an OW I wouldn't be qualified to post about it.

 

I have come back to this thread after being out of computer action for a few days.

 

I have liked your comments WF, and those of others.

 

First bolded: Maybe that happens because of a bad year? I didn't believe this before, but Ms seem such a strong love motivator on this forum, it's what I think now (although with rather shaky foundations. Is LS better to base my life on than my instincts?)

 

Second: Yeah, I noticed that!

 

Third: I so wish my xAP had told me this in truth. Told as a lie it wouldn't have worked. But told as truth, it would have been 'get over it' Viagra.