new here - just turned a corner in my marriage - hoping for support

[s.elizabeth]

Hello everyone. I have just turned a corner in my marriage of 15 years as a result of entering therapy. I had a huge revelation in my therapy which was that I had been unconsciously still in love with my exlover of 19 years ago. He was married though not living with his wife full time, I was single. To make a long and complicated story short, I got in touch with the ex, struggled with my feelings via emails and two phone calls over the course of the past two and a half years, and finally said goodbye via email to him because I knew even writing was wrong as he wouldn't tell his partner (wife) anything about it. I really wanted to reconcile with her, and wrangled with him about that, but it was no use.

 

But in the process of talking to therapist about the ex, I realized much worse - truly I have been "daddy's girl" all along, unable to be deeply in love with my husband because I can't give my father up! I never thought Freud could be so true but I genuinely feel this and see it. In my case emotional incest was involved - I have had to face how much my father flirts with me, and how I love that, at the expense of my mother. Not that this is my fault, but it just is! I could not face it. Now I am facing it, and I feel covered in shame.

 

Aie. Therapy has brought me not support but the most painful self awareness I can imagine. It has brought me to the brink leaving my husband, with whom I have two beautiful boys, and who I really do love so much. I see now how much I have flirted with other men throughout my marriage. My mind feels like it has been turned inside out, and I am sitting here looking at one big messy gooey gunky thing. And feeling very ashamed of myself, very miserable at times.

 

Now the storms seem to be clearing a little bit, and my husband is here with me still, and I am wanting to finally enjoy being with him without guilt over leaving my ex, and without guilt over loving my husband and "leaving" my father!

 

Does this make sense at all to anyone?

[carla]

It'll only really make sence to you b/c you know all the facts involve, we got the short version, but we got the jist of it. You are very lucky to have a loving and supportive husband to stand with you through all of this. Alot of men wouldn't have been so understanding. Have fun rekindling your marriage that's the fun part making up.

[Thinkalot]

Please be gentle with yourself, and don't beat yourself up about the newfound discoveries you have made. It will get easier to make the changes in time. I had trouble letting go of my emotional attachment to my mum, when I met my partner. I suddenly realised I had always been so close to her, and that had been a good thing, but something which needed to shift a bit, as I made room for my partner. I had had other longterm relationships, but it did not emerge as an issue then. So I can relate a little bit. Don't blame yourself, just praise yourself for making such good changes now. And get on with having a happy life with your husband. Good on your for taking the hard steps of facing your issues. That can be the hardest thing.

[meanon]

You are making perfect sense to me .

 

Most people go through their entire lives without gaining insight into the subconscious that drives their behaviour, that they protect themselves from through rationalisation and reliance on social and moral norms. Once you fully know yourself you can do anything you want with your life. You can be happy in almost any situation because you can make choices about how to best meet your emotional needs rather than being driven blindly by them. This greater degree of emotional maturity will also improve your ability to build supportive, sustaining relationships with others.

 

The revelations in therapy have changed the way you think about yourself. You can't get more earth shattering than a changed self perception - if we can't take ourselves for granted then it's a really scary world out there in which almost anything can and does happen. Thinkalot is right - don't be too hard on yourself. The things you describe do not seem so awful to me - many darker forces drive perfectly good people's behaviour. Try to concentrate on rebuilding your confidence and self esteem within the context of what you now know about yourself. Therapy should help you do this and if the treatment has ended with you feeling like this then it is seriously flawed and you need to seek more professional help.

 

You have a rich and rewarding life ahead of you, whatever you choose to do. Have confidence in yourself and the future.

[s.elizabeth]

Carla:

 

Alot of men wouldn't have been so understanding.

 

It has really made me appreciate him!

 

Have fun rekindling your marriage that's the fun part making up.

 

I will :-)

 

 

Thinkalot

Post: 3 | Quote:

Please be gentle with yourself, and don't beat yourself up about the newfound discoveries you have made. It will get easier to make the changes in time. I had trouble letting go of my emotional attachment to my mum, when I met my partner. I suddenly realised I had always been so close to her

 

Sometimes the most obvious things are just out of sight!!

 

 

, and that had been a good thing,

 

Maybe in time I will realize what has been good about my closeness to my dad. It certainly made my mother resent me. Now I understand a lot of her more incomprehensible behavior towards me and my family.

 

but something which needed to shift a bit, as I made room for my partner. I had had other longterm relationships, but it did not emerge as an issue then. So I can relate a little bit. Don't blame yourself, just praise yourself for making such good changes now. And get on with having a happy life with your husband. Good on your for taking the hard steps of facing your issues. That can be the hardest thing.

 

Thanks for such a gentle reply.

 

meanon

 

Post: 4 | Quote:

You can be happy in almost any situation because you can make choices about how to best meet your emotional needs rather than being driven blindly by them.

 

I guess right now I don't feel that control yet - I just see the subconscious pushing me in destructive ways and it's been like trying to jump out of the way of the oncoming traffic.

 

You can't get more earth shattering than a changed self perception

 

Thankyou so much for saying that. It really has been earth shattering. I moved to california, and have had my own personal earthquake.

 

Try to concentrate on rebuilding your confidence and self esteem within the context of what you now know about yourself. Therapy should help you do this and if the treatment has ended with you feeling like this then it is seriously flawed and you need to seek more professional help.

 

My therapist has been great about opening me up to what's been inside of me, but I haven't gotten through to her yet about how shattered I feel. She's like a surgeon who is expert at finding and getting the tumour out, but then can't sew up very well afterwards. If I can't get some basic human comfort out of her maybe I need to find another person to help me integrate what I've seen in myself.

 

You have a rich and rewarding life ahead of you, whatever you choose to do. Have confidence in yourself and the future.

 

Thank you everyone for such wonderful replies. They have given me much needed understanding and encouragement.

[Thinkalot]

It is always a pleasure to help. Gee, I've had some pretty big self discoveries too! And making the shift with mum was VERY tough, and actually caused us both pain at the time. But we are back to being great friends now, just with some more space and understanding on both sides.

 

And yes, make sure your therapist knows how to coach you through your reactions. It's really important. I've been seeing a psychologist, and I saw two others before I settled on one I liked.

[meanon]

My therapist has been great about opening me up to what's been inside of me, but I haven't gotten through to her yet about how shattered I feel. She's like a surgeon who is expert at finding and getting the tumour out, but then can't sew up very well afterwards. If I can't get some basic human comfort out of her maybe I need to find another person to help me integrate what I've seen in myself.

 

This sounds like a sensible approach to me. Find someone who can help you on the next stage. Wishing you all the best.

[SoleMate]

My therapist has been great about opening me up to what's been inside of me, but I haven't gotten through to her yet about how shattered I feel. She's like a surgeon who is expert at finding and getting the tumour out, but then can't sew up very well afterwards.

Wow. This is horrible. What I see in your story is that your peace of mind has been shattered and your family put in serious jeopardy, all for...WHAT??!! A "Freudian" revelation about "incest" that fills you with undeserved shame and an implanted belief that you can never love your husband!! THis is the scary side of so-called therapy. As you say, your mental surgeon specializes only in psychological dismemberment and amputations. She doesn't suture or give antibiotics, and I believe she has left some big dirty sponges and other crud in there too while your life is figuratively washing away across the table.

 

Please, PLEASE, I am urging you to get the h*ll away from this destructive person and find someone who has FEELING BETTER and FUNCTIONING BETTER as the goals of your therapy. Isn't that the only reason for seeking help?

 

Yours is one of the most upsetting posts I've read on Loveshack. I often recommend counseling, but I never imagine that the counselor could be like this..

[s.elizabeth]

you write:

Please, PLEASE, I am urging you to get the h*ll away from this destructive person

 

The thing I can't figure out is if that destructive person is *me* or the therapist. But I agree, this is not what I'd imagined therapy would be like. It *has* been a very rough ride.

 

I realize, I haven't said anything about what's been positive about all these revelations.

 

My relationship with my husband is better now. I find myself able to reach out to him in ways I never could before. For example, he told me he was feeling bad about his treatment of our son this morning. In the past I would have dismissed his feelings and given him a plastic reply - oh hon, things will be ok by tonight, don't worry. I still thought his feelings were largely irrational, but this morning, instead of that, I found myself saying, You really feel you let him down, don't you? That must be awful. And giveing him a hug. And I felt *close* to him. I dont' know how that change has happened, but it has.

 

What has been hard with my therapy is facing the *incredible* power of the past. For example, I got in touch with my ex after I had a flood of memories about him on the couch. I was in a session, talking about the person I was working for at the time, and said - he reminds me of [my ex]. It was the first time in maybe 14 years I had let the thought of my ex into my conscious mind. I then just lay there as memories *flooded* my mind. It was literally like that ridiculous movie total recall. My therapist said it was "the return of the repressed." {freud quote].

 

Interestingly, I just came across an article in the paper about exactly that part of Freud's theory. Apparently, researchers at the U of Oregon and at Stanford have identified exactly which part of the brain controls memory. They have found precise neurons, etc, which allow people to suppress memories of painful or traumatic events. Apparently it is part of the brain's control functions.

 

What I am wondering is if Freud did not consider what happens to the patient when the lid is taken off such a memory. Since remembering my ex, I have gone through complete torment. Partly that is because I got back in touch with him, but I *never* would have done that if I hadn't remembered him!

 

As for my parents, somehow the revelations about my ex seemed to open the lid on a lot of other feelings. My husband has long been telling me I am too close to them, I am enmeshed with them, I change when they are around, I am not myself with them, they have a terrible effect on me. I have long recognized their problems and was *convinced* he was wrong, that I was different.

 

But it was not so. I have had to face that in large measure I have remained in this horrible triangle they set up. My father flirting with me and putting my mother down, my mother resenting it and putting my father down. I'm an only child. Me bouncing back and forth inside like a tennis ball.

 

And - playing that scenario out unconsciously in my other relationships in my life. Flirting with other people's husbands. I can see I've done this and told myself every time it was somethign else - a great connection at work. Or an artistic bond. Or a deep connection over some other thing.

 

BS!!!! Pure physical attraction, the pull of which I have found myself helpless within. Helpless as a child whose daddy is flirting with her, and maybe it's the only time he really connects with her, so she eagerly accepts the attention.

 

But I am not that child anymore, and this patttern threatened to ruin my life, and nearly did so 19 years ago. This ex of mine was someone else's husband - it didn't stop me from genuinely falling in love with him, esp. as we lived together (wife not around) for a little while.

 

So with the repressed memory - maybe I had to open that most painful door onto the past in order to see the general pattern.

 

Surgeons operate with anaesthetics - no such thing in therapy. I guess the patient has to be aware that *very* powerful memories can emerge. Maybe they need to emerge, but perhaps too, there needs to be some kind of plan in the therapist's mind for what to do to comfort and protect the patient during that process.

 

Sorry for the long post but as you sometimes recommend counselling I guess you may as well know the whole story. I am *still* struggling with memory flashbacks. Just last night I had another dream about my ex - saw him picking up the mail to go into the apartment. I can't really find a word to express what I feel when I see him in my mind that way. Sorrow seems a weak word.

 

But I didn't feel guilty when I greeted my husband this morning. And then I was able to comfort my husband when he was feeling down about our son. So I don't know. I think my heart has just been opening up on many levels. Opening up to the pain I still feel about my ex, opening up to the love I feel for my husband.

 

Whether it could have been better managed by therapist, I dont' know. I do feel almost a sense of *fear* about going back - what *else* could I remember? I couldnt' take anything more.

[FreeMe]

I'm not sure if your therapist is a problem or not, but I do know that therapy is not easy. You're bringing up the absolute worst feelings and memories and dealing with them. Of course it's going to make you feel miserable.

 

I've never heard of the term "emotional incest". That sounds really harsh to me.

 

And I think Freud screwed up a lot of people and made them believe they were feeling things they weren't!

 

The past IS powerful. Learning is physical as well as mental. When you learn something new, a dendrite in your brain grows. When you learned those certain behaviors your brain changed physically. I'm dealing with issues as well and mere control is not making the demons go away. It is helping though.

 

But it does sound like the therapy is helping you. Like every kind of heart break, time heals. You've been dealing with very painful things and the more time that passes, the easier it will be to think of those things without having them hurt you.

[meanon]

I do think that the way your therapy has been managed has been unnecessarily damaging, although I am sure that you will have gained from the insight when you put yourself back together. A good therapist would have allowed you to retain a greater degree of control over the process rather than reducing you to your core and leaving you high and dry.

 

In the UK Freud is taught along with many others and there are still some who specialise but as for providing a comprehensive set of theories for understanding psychology he has been largely discredited. This is partly because of his client base (largely frustrated idle women of the wealthy, some of who were victims of childhood abuse which was largely unrecognised in those days).

 

The most successful therapists are those with a high degree of empathy who are well versed in a variety of approaches so that they they are able to adapt treatment to best suit the needs of the individual. Generally therapy is better than nothing but when clinical trials have been done to compare the effectiveness of therapy from students with no training but exceptionally high empathy rating vs. therapy from psychiatrists there was very little difference.

 

The unnecessary suffering makes me angry - therapy is a rough road sometimes but should not inflict this degree of damage, in my view. Unfortunately there is a minority of reputable professionals who believe that such inner conflict is necessary to achieve real change. You have come a long way and need some help to put all the pieces in place. I suggest you find a therapist with a more generalist approach with whom you get on well or an empathic friend you can trust and begin to talk things through. The memory flashbacks may be a form of post traumatic stress and can be easily treated. This can be a force for good in the end - take the insight you have learned, forgive yourself your past mistakes and create a happy life for yourself.

[moimeme]

Freud did come up with some useful stuff, but the whole issue of children's repressed sexual relationships with parents just doesn't wash with me. I don't think your dad 'flirted' with you. I think that kids need parental attention - NOT as a form of sexual attraction or attention - and that a lot of issues in their lives ensue if they didn't get the attention they needed or got dysfunctional attention.

 

Your therapist should not have allowed you to go through this much trauma without warning you or giving you strategies to treat it. You should have a frank discussion about this next time. If this person doesn't change approach, or at least give you some strategies to cope, you might wish to consider changing therapists. You can continue in Freudian therapy if you must (although, arguably, you may well have achieved many of the positive results you have experienced with any number of other approaches) but ensure that your therapist will not leave you traumatized and crushed as a result.

[s.elizabeth]

So much to think over. I am seeing the therapist on Friday. I will tell you all how it goes. Meanwhile, for those of you who are interested in psychology, here is the link to the article about repressed memory. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/303/5655/232?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hit10&RESULTFORMAT=&titleabstract=memory+repression&searchid=1077052904346_11429&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&fdate=10/1/1995&tdate=2/29/2004

 

Meanon, I was so glad you explained that some "reputable professionals" have a belief that only internal conflict creates change. That puts her behavior into context. My therapist *is* reputable and has had impeccable training. So I have completely trusted her judgement. But I have to consider my feeligns and the impact on my life and the people in my life too! If it's more than I can handle, for *whatever* reason - my failings or hers - it's incumbent upon me to make a change.

[Thinkalot]

I don't have anything else to add that the others haven't already covered, but I wanted to wish you good luck with your next steps forward.

[gaia]

I think that only time will tell whether your therapy has given you any useful insights or not. Having just joined the site and read all your posts, it seems to me that the pain far outweighs the gain. In fact, you seem to have received far more emotional support and validation from a few days on this site.

 

Your therapist may have impeccable training and all the necessary qualifications, but without judgement, empathy, common sense and a good helping of human compassion they are not worth much in my book.

 

I am sorry you have been through all this. I hope you go from strength to strength now

[s.elizabeth]

Hello all. I talked to therapist on Friday and told her directly how upsetting the process had been to me. I tend to try to pull out some kind of positive from a situation and have a hard time just saying straight up - this is hurting me. It's easier to tell anonymous people on a website rather than confront the person directly. In fact, I was talking to her on the phone as my youngest child had to stay home so I coudln't go to the session. It was easier to confront her on the phone. She listened carefully, however, how can I put this. I didn't get the impression she *felt* how traumatized I felt.

 

I have to credit my therapist for "curing" me of my panic attacks, which had become unbearable. I coudln't take any anti anxiety drugs when I started going to her because I was pregnant. I have no quarrel with what she has uncovered in me as some of you do...I could tell you all the details of my life with my parents to explain better but will spare you.

 

I couldn't have gone on like I was when I first saw her - I had to do something about my panic problems. I was about to have my second child, and I had to get myself ready to cope. Now, I see quite clearly what my underlying problems have been - the panics were triggered by little things which reminded me of my past. Also, I had a lot of problems being close to my husband which I now understand better. She got to the heart of it, even if she wasn't very empathetic. I dont' know if she *can* be. She thinks and reacts on an intellectual level all the time. She is a professor of psychology as well as a pracitcing therapist. It may just be her personal limitation, that she can't *feel* as well as she thinks.

 

But now I am feeling like I just can't keep engaging with my past. Some experiences leave you at a certain level unconsoleable, or consoleable only over the very long term, by your spouse. I think my husband is the one to "cure" me now, not more therapy...also - *they* need me to focus on them (my h and kids) not my past anymore...I jsut can't take thinking about the past any longer.

 

So now I have to gather my courage to say all this to her, to tell her I want to stop going to therapy. I want to take a few sessoins to finish. I am thinking about going to a homeopathic doctor. I don't know if this is the right way to finish therapy but I knkow I can't keep on with her, and I can't face opeing up to someone else (face to face :-) right now. I just want to recover quietly.

[meanon]

Your attitude is a credit to you. You will get the best out of what you have been through and recover from your personal earthquake. Take with you our best wishes and let us know if you ever need support from LS

[s.elizabeth]

Many thanks for all the support!