"They'll not change"

[Silly_Girl]

I read many, many times on here that people will not change (often MM but it's used in several contexts).

 

I was in an abusive relationship, physically and emotionally. It took a long time but I got out of it and those close to me are still almost shocked at how quickly I 'got over it'. I think even all this time later I'm coming to terms with what happened actually.

 

The existence of this relationship is (yet another) reason why I accidentally fell in to my current relationship. I thought I was too 'broken' to be able to care for anyone for such a very long time. I hated how that relationship made me behave. I typed some of the ways I acted but deleted them because I'm not ready to share that stuff; I'm barely ready to accept it myself.

 

In my relationship with MM I present NONE of the behaviours that worried me. I never am angry as I used to be, don't lose my temper to the same extent, don't argue in the same way, I rarely use bad language when upset/angry. There's loads of ways I'm different. I like how I conduct myself in this relationship. I like me a lot, actually, in that context. And I do think I have been fully tested, it's not that it's all sweetness and light; there's been some tough ol' times.

 

So why is it not possible for MM to be different with me than with his wife? We have friends/bosses who bring out different things in us. I'm very aware of that. I do believe I can have a relationship with MM based on how we are as a couple, not how he interacts with his wife.

 

He loves loves loves physical affection, as do I, his wife won't tolerate it. His wife physically will not and has never had sex with him, MM and I are incredibly sexually-minded and well-matched. (Those first two points alone mean MM has had to stifle/hide a massive part of himself for a long time to manage to stay in his marriage). MM is chatty and relaxed when with me, I'm a chatterer, his wife is much more reserved and thinks one should think before one speaks. Both MM and his wife are massive conflict avoiders - huge! - I am anything but When we hit a bump nowadays MM calls me up immediately, and we talk, and we say what needs to be said and he is always relieved when we have talked, things are never worse but only ever better when we're working together. MM enjoys opening up about his deeper feelings, things that have affected him over the years, his wife does not enjoy or encourage those things at all.

 

Because of the above factors, and many others in the same vein, it took me a long time to get my head around how he could be those two people. After our period of NC we agreed this was second, and last time around. So I took time to find out more about their relationship, when things got worse/better and why. And I thought about myself and how conditioned I was in my previous relationship and how friends saw a change in my demeanour, attitude and confidence literally overnight. I understand the comments about leopards not changing their spots are well-intentioned and sincere, but I wonder how true it is.

 

I don't have a conclusion to this post by the way, really just thinking aloud

[jennie-jennie]

Is it so much change though? Or is it compatibility? Different people bring out different aspects of our personality. A relationship can be more or less good for us. A relationship can make us grow or damage us. The interaction between two more compatible people can be healthier than the interaction between two other less compatible people, or where one is more damaged than the other. So a person can be good for you, while another person can be bad for you.

 

Hopefully we all try to self-improve throughout life. Some relationships boost this, while others impede it.

[Silly_Girl]

I totally agree with you Jennie. But I don't think the viewpoint you shared is ever considered when we as posters collectively tell someone 'dump him - he'll NEVER change, they never do'.

 

I know that in the case of serial cheaters, for example, this is probably usually very good advice, I am just aware that it's easy to say and not necessarily wholly true or helpful.

[Ellin]

I totally agree with you Jennie. But I don't think the viewpoint you shared is ever considered when we as posters collectively tell someone 'dump him - he'll NEVER change, they never do'.

 

I know that in the case of serial cheaters, for example, this is probably usually very good advice, I am just aware that it's easy to say and not necessarily wholly true or helpful.

That's the sad truth about this forum. Sometimes there is potential for a happy ending down the line, but while maybe a poster here and a poster there can see it, the majority shouts out the above, and sometimes throw in something like "EVERONE feels that way about your situation so it must be right", and the one asking for help, who might feel unsure or is in a weak spot, gets affected by it.

[Brokenlady]

I think the question really is not "can he change" (because I believe most people can if they are willing) or even "will he change", the real question is "at what cost?" There are OWs who wait years and years before an MM makes a break with his M. They may change, but when the ow gets steamrolled in the slow process, it may well be that the cost is simply too high.

[In_Repair]

I think that in most cases the WS has already proven that they are capable of change... that's why they are having an affair. They turn into a liar. Now, can you change them back once they are yours?

[lilbunny]

He loves loves loves physical affection, as do I, his wife won't tolerate it. His wife physically will not and has never had sex with him, MM and I are incredibly sexually-minded and well-matched. (Those first two points alone mean MM has had to stifle/hide a massive part of himself for a long time to manage to stay in his marriage).

 

Obviously I don't know the individuals or the circumstances, but this really struck me in your post. They have never had sex, yet someone so 'sexually-minded' chose to marry her? If you only have his word for it I'd be wary. My MM/exMM not sure at the moment, was honest enough to say that department had never been an issue (uncomfortable as it was to hear I knew it was truthful) and I never imagined all of that came to a halt when I came on the scene (again unpleasant to think about, but the facts).

I could be totally wrong, but it's something to think about.

[Confused4Now]

Obviously I don't know the individuals or the circumstances, but this really struck me in your post. They have never had sex, yet someone so 'sexually-minded' chose to marry her? If you only have his word for it I'd be wary. My MM/exMM not sure at the moment, was honest enough to say that department had never been an issue (uncomfortable as it was to hear I knew it was truthful) and I never imagined all of that came to a halt when I came on the scene (again unpleasant to think about, but the facts).

I could be totally wrong, but it's something to think about.

Well my xMW assured me H was blowing up a mattress and sleeping in the living room last year and there was no sex going on at all for almost a year. Things weren't adding up...so I threaten to knock on the door and then I got the truth. He was back in the bedroom for sometime and they were still having sex. So for me I'd rather here the truth in the beginning I'm a big boy I can handle it...I know how hard it is. This was pretty much the end for me. I pretty much stopped believing anything she was saying.

[LucreziaBorgia]

He loves loves loves physical affection, as do I, his wife won't tolerate it. His wife physically will not and has never had sex with him, MM and I are incredibly sexually-minded and well-matched. (Those first two points alone mean MM has had to stifle/hide a massive part of himself for a long time to manage to stay in his marriage). MM is chatty and relaxed when with me, I'm a chatterer, his wife is much more reserved and thinks one should think before one speaks. Both MM and his wife are massive conflict avoiders - huge!

 

His wife has NEVER had sex with him?

 

Why is he doing what is necessary to stay married, particular under these circumstances?

 

I think the part of him that won't change is that for whatever reason, he 'needs' the type of relationship he has with his wife. Sometimes the things we 'need' aren't what is best.

 

You are providing him with happiness it sounds like, but it doesn't seem to change the fact that he needs what he has with his wife.

 

Do you happen to know what his relationship was like with his parents? I'm curious if his upbringing has something to do with why he needs an apparently negative aspect in his life.

[WTFBBQ]

I understand the comments about leopards not changing their spots are well-intentioned and sincere, but I wonder how true it is.

He's still married isn't he?

[Silly_Girl]

Obviously I don't know the individuals or the circumstances, but this really struck me in your post. They have never had sex, yet someone so 'sexually-minded' chose to marry her? If you only have his word for it I'd be wary. My MM/exMM not sure at the moment, was honest enough to say that department had never been an issue (uncomfortable as it was to hear I knew it was truthful) and I never imagined all of that came to a halt when I came on the scene (again unpleasant to think about, but the facts).

I could be totally wrong, but it's something to think about.

 

Yep, am happy it's true. Apart from setting up a camera in their bedroom, I'm happy it's true. Lots of things he's shared about how it came to this. They were both quite religious, there's a lot of emotional backdrop to it. As a line in an email it sticks out. When you understand the start, to the now, it doesn't seem so odd.

 

And yes, to the question about his upbringing, it took a lot of years, due to things that happened when he was young, for him to accept his sex drive was normal. And I'm the first person who's made him feel he's sexually attractive, much less 'normal'.

[Silly_Girl]

He's still married isn't he?

 

100% married.

[sadintexas]

I get what you're saying SG, but I think the contexts are a bit different. He may be more affectionate with you, or more open with you and it's very valid. JJ made a very good point in that regard about compatibility.

 

You were in an abusive relationship and you reacted (probably) in a way that is more or less expected in that type of situation. I've been in the same so I know exactly what you mean. You're reacting to a situation...it's not a core part of your personality. But the reason you chose to stay in an abusive R for a long period of time is something that you need to identify and work out. That is a core part of your personality. Your reaction to a bad situation is not as important to me as it is to figure out why you were in a bad situation (or stayed there) in the first place.

 

So based on that, even if the point is that the MM is cheating as a reaction to his current situation, do you like the fact that he's coping by choosing to have an A? Do you think he needs new coping skills? Most cheaters are also conflict avoiders and poor communicators and the cheating is a manifestation of this issue within the cheater. If the cheater doesn't resolve this, even if you have a better set of circumstances than he and his wife did, it's prone to rear its ugly head again in the future.

 

People don't tend to change unless they work on changing. It is not just one set of circumstances versus another. I had to work to fix problems I had before the abusive relationship, had to learn how to identify, how to apply what I had learned, etc. Had I not done any personal work, I would be prone to entering yet another abusive relationship.

 

People say they don't change because in reading these stories, all that's happening is talk. There's rarely any action indicating that the cheater is doing anything to truly improve the situation at home, to work on their own issues, etc.

[Silly_Girl]

I get what you're saying SG, but I think the contexts are a bit different. He may be more affectionate with you, or more open with you and it's very valid. JJ made a very good point in that regard about compatibility.

 

You were in an abusive relationship and you reacted (probably) in a way that is more or less expected in that type of situation. I've been in the same so I know exactly what you mean. You're reacting to a situation...it's not a core part of your personality.

 

Definitely. But I didn't KNOW that for sure. I was petrified. It would bring me to tears, the thought of the first row or first whatever.. in case that was now the real me.

 

But the reason you chose to stay in an abusive R for a long period of time is something that you need to identify and work out. That is a core part of your personality. Your reaction to a bad situation is not as important to me as it is to figure out why you were in a bad situation (or stayed there) in the first place.

 

I'm fully aware of why I stayed. I hadn't forgiven myself for leaving my first relationship, a marriage to my best friend within which I bore my first and only child, who is the light of my life. This was my penance, and I had to prove I was not a flake who could not do commitment.

 

So based on that, even if the point is that the MM is cheating as a reaction to his current situation, do you like the fact that he's coping by choosing to have an A?

 

Don't like it. Totally see how it happened. She 'started it'. She stills see the man she fell in love with. He fulfils a role. They both act out their roles.

 

Do you think he needs new coping skills? Most cheaters are also conflict avoiders and poor communicators and the cheating is a manifestation of this issue within the cheater. If the cheater doesn't resolve this, even if you have a better set of circumstances than he and his wife did, it's prone to rear its ugly head again in the future.

 

His comms skills are good with me. Poor with her. He and I would never have made it this far if he couldn't communicate in good times and in bad. She discourages confrontation and interaction. However, he IS a conflict avoider and I had never, until the last month, really grasped how much that can shape a relationship where there are two who have this trait.

 

People don't tend to change unless they work on changing. It is not just one set of circumstances versus another. I had to work to fix problems I had before the abusive relationship, had to learn how to identify, how to apply what I had learned, etc. Had I not done any personal work, I would be prone to entering yet another abusive relationship.

 

I agree. That was the point of much reading, and the counselling. And the thinking. And I see effort in this vein from MM, just not as much as I would wish for him. By the same token, my friends had written me off to a life with my ex. They were stunned when I managed a complex set of circumstances that resulted in my bf living somewhere else and my son and I being safe.

 

People say they don't change because in reading these stories, all that's happening is talk. There's rarely any action indicating that the cheater is doing anything to truly improve the situation at home, to work on their own issues, etc.

 

True. I see what you mean. However, there's a lot of MM knocking about who appear to be getting counselling and actively trying to improve their situation. But that's no guarantee, obviously, there's also many MM referred to on LS who are in hardcore self-improvement/counselling who still seem to pursue the most irrational path.

[pureinheart]

I read many, many times on here that people will not change (often MM but it's used in several contexts).

 

I was in an abusive relationship, physically and emotionally. It took a long time but I got out of it and those close to me are still almost shocked at how quickly I 'got over it'. I think even all this time later I'm coming to terms with what happened actually.

 

The existence of this relationship is (yet another) reason why I accidentally fell in to my current relationship. I thought I was too 'broken' to be able to care for anyone for such a very long time. I hated how that relationship made me behave. I typed some of the ways I acted but deleted them because I'm not ready to share that stuff; I'm barely ready to accept it myself.

 

In my relationship with MM I present NONE of the behaviours that worried me. I never am angry as I used to be, don't lose my temper to the same extent, don't argue in the same way, I rarely use bad language when upset/angry. There's loads of ways I'm different. I like how I conduct myself in this relationship. I like me a lot, actually, in that context. And I do think I have been fully tested, it's not that it's all sweetness and light; there's been some tough ol' times.

 

So why is it not possible for MM to be different with me than with his wife? We have friends/bosses who bring out different things in us. I'm very aware of that. I do believe I can have a relationship with MM based on how we are as a couple, not how he interacts with his wife.

 

He loves loves loves physical affection, as do I, his wife won't tolerate it. His wife physically will not and has never had sex with him, MM and I are incredibly sexually-minded and well-matched. (Those first two points alone mean MM has had to stifle/hide a massive part of himself for a long time to manage to stay in his marriage). MM is chatty and relaxed when with me, I'm a chatterer, his wife is much more reserved and thinks one should think before one speaks. Both MM and his wife are massive conflict avoiders - huge! - I am anything but When we hit a bump nowadays MM calls me up immediately, and we talk, and we say what needs to be said and he is always relieved when we have talked, things are never worse but only ever better when we're working together. MM enjoys opening up about his deeper feelings, things that have affected him over the years, his wife does not enjoy or encourage those things at all.

 

Because of the above factors, and many others in the same vein, it took me a long time to get my head around how he could be those two people. After our period of NC we agreed this was second, and last time around. So I took time to find out more about their relationship, when things got worse/better and why. And I thought about myself and how conditioned I was in my previous relationship and how friends saw a change in my demeanour, attitude and confidence literally overnight. I understand the comments about leopards not changing their spots are well-intentioned and sincere, but I wonder how true it is.

 

I don't have a conclusion to this post by the way, really just thinking aloud

 

 

Wow SG, I tried to bold what best fit in your statement and it all fit...lol...anyway, I know I bitc* a lot about exDM (or used to), but in the beginning it was an extremely possitive experience.

 

He was my best friend, we were inseparable. People tried many times to pit us against each other, but couldn't due to the strong bond we had. We literally had our own language.

 

I saw many good changes in both of us...we enhanced each others life bigtime. Like you had just come out of some VERY serious trauma...I mean I have pictures of my depressed states, it was very pathetic looking.

 

After about three months of us hanging out together I became everything he was saying I was...he brought me flowers all of the time, he told me how wonderful, pretty and everything possitive a person that I was...I lost 40 lbs just like that, and felt good about me. After being so withdrawn for so long, which is not my normal self, all of my bubbly personality came back, but better. Everything was better. Everything made sense for the first time in my life.

 

SG, I'll never find anyone that I click with like him...we were best friends. That is why I was so hurt concerning the way things turned out and can feel the anger and disappointment rising back up.

 

I guess this is why I can't be angry with him anymore, he added so much to my life and I hope he is truly ok.

[pureinheart]

Being REALLY bad about thread jacking I try to read only the OP then reply...I guess I overlooked the part about him never having sex with his wife????? That means he never consummated the M???? No way.... well no wonder.

 

Hey sorry for all the questions, although I'm really trippin here...what kind of religion is she in that teaches no sex at all???? I totally understand the no sex before M thing and try to follow that (and have been successful)...wow I really feel bad for both of them....wow....

[Silly_Girl]

Being REALLY bad about thread jacking I try to read only the OP then reply...I guess I overlooked the part about him never having sex with his wife????? That means he never consummated the M???? No way.... well no wonder.

 

Hey sorry for all the questions, although I'm really trippin here...what kind of religion is she in that teaches no sex at all???? I totally understand the no sex before M thing and try to follow that (and have been successful)...wow I really feel bad for both of them....wow....

 

I feel REALLY sad for both of them. She asked for no sex before marriage, which he agreed to because it seemed right to respect her wishes. Then, after the wedding she 'physically couldn't' have intercourse. I think the wider implications of this (lack of intimacy, loss of attraction, no possibility of children, resentment etc) is what has slowly eaten away at them. They discussed it at one stage. She went to a therapy session, alone, came out, told him she wouldn't be attending again and refused to talk about it.

 

I think MM was more concerned as to her happiness and well-being but was more hurt than he realised when she left him for someone else and it was apparent she was attracted to her MM and not her husband.

 

It's hugely sad. The more I hear, the more surprised I am. MM had been convinced over time (until meeting me) that what they have 'ain't so bad' and that lots of couples have little or no sex and that it would be reckless to throw away a stable, long-term relationship 'just' for sex. But it's not just sex. Sex and what comes with it is an enormous bond between us, but it's one of many and he (and I but to a lesser degree) had no idea it was possible to have a connection like we have. He had - god, this sounds awful when I say it - been brainwashed. And he had no benchmark because she was his first serious relationship.

 

But that man, the husband I describe, he's not my MM. They're nothing alike. I didn't fall in love with her husband, I fell in love with the man underneath...