Interesting article about the nature of marriage, cheating, longevity of love, etc.

[Pyro]

The divorce was sort of the straw that back the camel's back. I went from being unable to express any anger to having all those suppressed emotions from all those years of abuse just flowing out and I haven't been the same since. In many ways it was a positive thing because for once in my life I had a backbone but it did make me into somewhat of a woman hater.

 

I am terrified because despite my swearing I would never ever love another woman again I found a woman that I love and the stories that I hear of what other men go through make me terrified that once again I will have that love thrown back in my face. I have built my current life on being strong and trusting another woman feels weak to me. I am not saying that is a good thing but it is behind a lot of my thoughts and actions.

 

Its your choice if you wish to continue living your life that way, but since you are on an advice board I strongly urge you to open up to your wife about this stuff.

 

If you are truly scared that a woman (your wife) will lose interest once you open up then it is just a waste of your time and hers to be married.

[You Go Girl]

True it is that relationships are complex and layered, but in the same way that an automotive engineer isn't necessarily a superior driver, knowing (or attempting to know) the underlying psychology of relationships doesn't necessarily make you more savvy in the ways of love.

 

Just how does one ignore a subconscious part of their mind? Doesn't ignoring imply active denial? How does one actively deny a part of their mind they are not conscious of? The answer is they don't.

 

The animal brain is where the butterflies live--oxytocin and vasopressin. They flitter about in response to odor, touch, images and thoughts. We can't deny these things any more than we can deny breathing. You can try to avoid situations and thoughts you imagine might trigger the butterflies, but once they are loose, there is no turning back.

 

How simple life would be if we could ignore the animal brain at will. I could shut off this ridiculous, unreasonable love I feel for a woman who cheated on me and virtually left me for dead.

 

Not ignoring that animal brain, not denying it, --but acknowledging it, and even embracing it!

We have to...otherwise we're back to that staring at the wall like a zombie resignation, no love in the future, no passion, no real drive unless we become like Mother Theresa and it's all about altruism, selfish goals be damned.

I'm thinking that to find a good relationship, I have to know my animal brain, and a potential partner know his.

Brainstorming at this point...no pun intended

[BlackLovely]

Because you "stood up" to them or because you just being plain disrespectful and annoying, trying to feed your ego, and in the process shattering theirs? I'm tired of these women trying to be "independent" in a relationship/marriage. When you're with another person you can't have your cake and eat it too. The time for that has got to stop. I hear about it every day about how some woman wants to be free but yet still cries because no man wants to handle their egotism. Woogle I agree with you. There are some who just don't like a loving man who's willing to do anything for them.

 

No, because I wouldn't take any of their crap or let them control my life.

Nothing disrespectful or annoying about that, unless the man only wants a woman that just keeps quiet, smiles and nods. I think that unless a woman is docile, you and Woggle condemn her as a raging, man hating feminist.

 

My ego is not fed by hurting others and that's a foolish assumption for you to make, just because you had that experience. What's wrong with a woman wanting freedom? I can understand not wanting an egotistical woman, but you and Woggle mistake outspoken and challenging women as ego driven. I am confident that this is because neither of you can handle an independent women, so you try to shame them.

 

I am evolved and intelligent enough to fully appreciate a loving, decent man. My fiance has enough balls to handle me; a woman who is unabashedly opinionated, bold and assertive.

[Woggle]

With all due respect this kind of mentality sets off a whole bunch of red flags in a man. This is the same kind of mentality some women use when they treat a man like utter garbage and he takes issue with it.

 

Why would anybody want a challenging relationship that they had to handle? Life is hard enough without creating more difficulty just so a man can prove what an evolved and feminist man he is. This is the difference between men and women. Men want a relationship to be a peaceful escape from the world while some women just want drama.

[BlackLovely]

With all due respect this kind of mentality sets off a whole bunch of red flags in a man. This is the same kind of mentality some women use when they treat a man like utter garbage and he takes issue with it.

 

Why would anybody want a challenging relationship that they had to handle? Life is hard enough without creating more difficulty just so a man can prove what an evolved and feminist man he is. This is the difference between men and women. Men want a relationship to be a peaceful escape from the world while some women just want drama.

 

This kind of mentality sets off red flags, in little boys who think women should be submissive. Once again, there is nothing cruel about standing up for oneself. Don't lump me in with raging feminazi's, just because you hate women and pigeonhole us.

 

When I say "challenge", I mean being strong enough to dare to ask the hard questions or not being afraid of healthy and respectful differences of opinion. I want peace too, but let a man think he can boss me around and he'll get some drama. I think that's only fair.

[Woggle]

Taken at face value there is nothing wrong with a woman not wanting to controlled and oppressed because I don't want to be controlled and mistreated either. That being said many women these have a very broad definition of what controlling is. If I want a woman to be faithful I am controlling or if I want her to stop finding fault with every little thing I do I am controlling. In and of itself what you said is okay but it is the same script that men get when they stand up for themselves after being treated like crap.

 

Standing up for yourself is one thing but causing fights when there is no need to is another thing.

[You Go Girl]

Woggle, I just have to ask--

Do you love your current wife anywhere near as much as you loved the one that made you bitter?

 

As for a challenge, I can actually understand what you are saying. Nobody wants a challenge all the time. However, a relationship that isn't intellectually stimulating is boring. I think the difference is that what you regard as a "challenge", BlackLovely was simply saying that she is intellectually challenging. Not the same thing.

 

Same goes for your statement "men want a peaceful relationship". So do many women. But is peaceful coming home and watching tv without an interesting discussion? Is peaceful not having to think? Just what is your definition of peaceful? Is it a boring one? Is it an intellectually stimulating relationship that is on the same page? I hope so to the latter!

[Woggle]

Sometimes men need a half hour or so to veg out when we get home. Give us that without nagging and the rest of the evening will be much better. Women can use that time to do whatever is they do to relax. If kids are involved couples can alternate days on who gets to veg out first.

 

Of course I want a stimulating relationship but that does not mean it has to be constant drama. Plus the same women who claim to want stimulation are the ones who are obsessed with reality shows and tabloid gossip.

[BlackLovely]

Woggle, I just have to ask--

Do you love your current wife anywhere near as much as you loved the one that made you bitter?

 

As for a challenge, I can actually understand what you are saying. Nobody wants a challenge all the time. However, a relationship that isn't intellectually stimulating is boring. I think the difference is that what you regard as a "challenge", BlackLovely was simply saying that she is intellectually challenging. Not the same thing.

 

Same goes for your statement "men want a peaceful relationship". So do many women. But is peaceful coming home and watching tv without an interesting discussion? Is peaceful not having to think? Just what is your definition of peaceful? Is it a boring one? Is it an intellectually stimulating relationship that is on the same page? I hope so to the latter!

Thank you dearie-this is exactly what I meant.

 

Woggle, asking your wife to be faithful in not controlling. Expecting her to sit down and shut up, even if she's upset, is very controlling. Make sense?

[Woggle]

Thank you dearie-this is exactly what I meant.

 

Woggle, asking your wife to be faithful in not controlling. Expecting her to sit down and shut up, even if she's upset, is very controlling. Make sense?

 

My ex thought it was controlling which was funny when you consider the fact that I was the one being accused of cheating all the time.

 

I don't expect a woman to sit down and shut up but don't cross the line into verbal abuse and she should at least understand what she is complaining about instead of this vague resentment that many men exhaust themselves trying to placate with no results.

[You Go Girl]

The bit about tabloids is rubbish.

 

But...something else caught my attention. Unanswered questions can be more telling than answered ones.

[Woggle]

The bit about tabloids is rubbish.

 

But...something else caught my attention. Unanswered questions can be more telling than answered ones.

 

I want to believe I love my wife as much as I loved my ex but I don't even know if I am capable of giving a woman unfiltered and put love like that anymore. My friend told me the other day that he thinks my ex scarred me for life and I am starting to believe that is true. I an repulsed by what my ex has become but it cuts to the core that the woman who I would have given my life for was just a lie so you can call me bitter or sexist all you want but I learned my lessons of what not to do in my first marriage.

[BlackLovely]

My ex thought it was controlling which was funny when you consider the fact that I was the one being accused of cheating all the time.

 

I don't expect a woman to sit down and shut up but don't cross the line into verbal abuse and she should at least understand what she is complaining about instead of this vague resentment that many men exhaust themselves trying to placate with no results.

Neither of those caveats you mentioned are unreasonable. You had the right to expect fidelity. I never feel or express unfounded resentment to my fiance.

You can choose to be scarred for life, or you can do something about it. There's very that little LS posters can do for you, if you insist on ranting about women all the time.

I was engaged in self destructive behaviors for years, all the while blaming my upbringing. After therapy and giving myself a stern talking to, I realized that while it wasn't my fault I was abused, it WAS my fault if I chose to ruin my own life.

Your ex is winning, because now you are bitter to the point of absurdity.

Woggle, how does your current wife respond to all the mistrust?

[Woggle]

My wife does not know about this. I do a good job of hiding my issues from her.

[spriggig]

...she should at least understand what she is complaining about instead of this vague resentment that many men exhaust themselves trying to placate with no results.

 

My marriage followed one path, where neither of us complained, and while I was content, she was hurting. What you expressed here is one of the other common paths, I think. That one complains vaguely and the other tries to placate. The marriage still falls apart.

 

Discovering these two paths gives men at least, who are generally poorer communicators to begin with, the impression that it didn't matter what they did, the marriage was going to fail. It's the feeling of "damned if we do..."

 

Of course, the problem is complaining is very poor communication, especially when it's vague and directed at men--because men approach complaints with the desire to fix and men intuitively know that understanding what is broken is 90% of the solution.

[Woggle]

Most men who get the divorce bomb dropped on them have no idea what they did wrong. I think some women just project their own issues onto a man and when he doesn't magically fix them resentment kicks in.

[You Go Girl]

My marriage followed one path, where neither of us complained, and while I was content, she was hurting. What you expressed here is one of the other common paths, I think. That one complains vaguely and the other tries to placate. The marriage still falls apart.

 

Discovering these two paths gives men at least, who are generally poorer communicators to begin with, the impression that it didn't matter what they did, the marriage was going to fail. It's the feeling of "damned if we do..."

 

Of course, the problem is complaining is very poor communication, especially when it's vague and directed at men--because men approach complaints with the desire to fix and men intuitively know that understanding what is broken is 90% of the solution.

 

Both you and Woggle make some good points. First thing you have to understand about women I think is--that you've missed--not all women are equally mature. The woman you are painting a picture of is the younger, first-time wife, that is immature in her own understanding and knowledge of how to make a marriage work. It's like kids in school--one interests them for awhile, becomes their best friend, and then they are bored or discover someone new, and they move on. It's the same thing here. As much as people commend staying married for life--sometimes marriage the first time is like grade school best friends. Simply doesn't last for some of the same reasons!

So yes, it is damned if you do and damned if you don't in that case. You are dealing with an immature woman who doesn't appreciate herself or her partner, she feels the void, and so she goes out and seeks a new life.

You can try to be understanding all day long, and try to fix those little gripes all day long, but if a woman--or man--isn't mature enough to value the love in the marriage, and their love is immature, yes, it is going to fail and they will walk away.

 

I think from what I know of your wife this is exactly what you are dealing with. Her maturity will come later, and she will look back and know that she didn't have the maturity, degree of awakening, whatever you want to call it. Her LOVE WAS IMMATURE.

[You Go Girl]

I want to believe I love my wife as much as I loved my ex but I don't even know if I am capable of giving a woman unfiltered and put love like that anymore. My friend told me the other day that he thinks my ex scarred me for life and I am starting to believe that is true. I an repulsed by what my ex has become but it cuts to the core that the woman who I would have given my life for was just a lie so you can call me bitter or sexist all you want but I learned my lessons of what not to do in my first marriage.

 

I have to appreciate your ability to address the question directly. There's hope for you yet! That said in a teasing manner.

So now I see why you do belong on LS. You keep talking it through and healing.

Of course you are capable of loving as much, and probably more. A different love though is what you should strive toward. You have to realize you are a more mature person now, and your love will be more mature. That's no reason for it to be diminished. Like I said to Spriggig, a more mature awakened love with more appreciation of love itself, is not a diminished love.

First though, you do have to get the idea out of your head that there's some one size fits all approach to women. Your current wife may be less or more mature than your first, your and her ability to love may be greater or lesser depending on many factors, but some canned approach isn't going to work. Bottom line is, it's all about intimacy. You either are growing together, or you are growing apart. There's no limbo land.

[spriggig]

Most men who get the divorce bomb dropped on them have no idea what they did wrong. I think some women just project their own issues onto a man and when he doesn't magically fix them resentment kicks in.

 

Yep. As in (after the fact), "You had ten years to make me happy!" She wasn't happy, she blamed me, but she never talked about it directly--I was clueless and content. Kaboom!

 

It's such a common frustration, we should all be taught some ways to recognize and handle this in high school or some point before we get married. It's too easy to get married and too hard to get divorced.

[Steadfast]

 

First thing you have to understand about women I think is--that you've missed--not all women are equally mature...

 

...You are dealing with an immature woman who doesn't appreciate herself or her partner, she feels the void, and so she goes out and seeks a new life...

 

...You can try to be understanding all day long, and try to fix those little gripes all day long, but if a woman--or man--isn't mature enough to value the love in the marriage, and their love is immature, yes, it is going to fail and they will walk away.

 

 

Insightful as always YGG. In the past I have disagreed with your position on certain issues, but I never fail to be impressed with your understanding.

 

And your ability to express it.

 

What we see here, IMHO, are certain patterns of human behavior that we all recognize, each spiced with our personal experiences. Comprehension is easier when you've lived both sides of it, and this no doubt helps us not only see what's happening, but gives better insight as how to avoid it.

 

No matter what the motivation, the consequences of betrayal remain. Sure, one may be 'content' and the other 'hurting' but who's to say what could be accomplished if love and trust were applied? That's another issue for sure, but many don't realize until much later what really was lost.

[You Go Girl]

Yep. As in (after the fact), "You had ten years to make me happy!" She wasn't happy, she blamed me, but she never talked about it directly--I was clueless and content. Kaboom!

 

It's such a common frustration, we should all be taught some ways to recognize and handle this in high school or some point before we get married. It's too easy to get married and too hard to get divorced.

 

It might have come out of the blue, but it sure didn't develop out of the blue. If she didn't share concerns, some feeling of being unhappy, then I have got to tell you--it was calculating on her part. She was weighing her options for quite some time, and may have flirted with the idea of divorce many years before, like some fantasy she visited here and there in her head.

Simply put, they have a plan already worked out in their head. It may be a plan 1/2 or 3/4 based on fantasy, but it's there.

The sad part is that she didn't share a desire for what was lacking. WAW's always imagine that it's something they have to go elsewhere to get. They get stumped on how to grow with their man, and have this philosophy that they have to get a new model for satisfaction.

If she didn't share her reasons all along for her lack of satisfaction (I'm going to stop short of calling it unhappiness, because I don't think it was that deep or that seriously lacking) then she was planning on bailing. She didn't even try. Why didn't she try? WAW's have tunnel vision. It's back to that immaturity issue.

[You Go Girl]

No matter what the motivation, the consequences of betrayal remain. Sure, one may be 'content' and the other 'hurting' but who's to say what could be accomplished if love and trust were applied? That's another issue for sure, but many don't realize until much later what really was lost.

 

So much for women's innate ability to express themselves and communicate better, in regard specifically to these WAW's. It doesn't hold water in these cases.

Their marriages slowly become intimately superficial, until walking is so very easy for them.

I know because I was one. 10 years ago seems like a lifetime ago.

You know, if my exH gave me an hour of discussion time, even in a chit-chat light conversation, I think he'd see that I'm aware now. He'd probably say, wow, she finally gets it. Why did we have to get divorced for that to happen?

The WAW's that don't express unhappiness, like Spriggig's, have been living in their own little world for a long time. It didn't just happen overnight.

The hurt they feel isn't dissatisfaction with their H, as much as they project it onto them to alleviate guilt and blameshift.

They are very deeply dissatisfied with themselves. They are in a lot of real pain, very real pain that they don't even know how to address.

Honestly, if I was a H that his wife was suddenly bringing up divorce, I'd get down on my knees and express my deep love, and then I'd immediately attack the issue of what her dreams are and how they haven't come true. I'd go right for focusing on her, and her self-esteem, and join her in a plan to make her feel she is worth something as an individual.

[spriggig]

It might have come out of the blue, but it sure didn't develop out of the blue. If she didn't share concerns, some feeling of being unhappy, then I have got to tell you--it was calculating on her part. She was weighing her options for quite some time, and may have flirted with the idea of divorce many years before, like some fantasy she visited here and there in her head.

Simply put, they have a plan already worked out in their head. It may be a plan 1/2 or 3/4 based on fantasy, but it's there.

The sad part is that she didn't share a desire for what was lacking. WAW's always imagine that it's something they have to go elsewhere to get. They get stumped on how to grow with their man, and have this philosophy that they have to get a new model for satisfaction.

If she didn't share her reasons all along for her lack of satisfaction (I'm going to stop short of calling it unhappiness, because I don't think it was that deep or that seriously lacking) then she was planning on bailing. She didn't even try. Why didn't she try? WAW's have tunnel vision. It's back to that immaturity issue.

 

I agree with this completely.

 

It became more and more obvious, especially in retrospect, she was unhappy. I failed in not pursuing the reason with her. "Fine" meant "fine" or at least it was nothing to do with us or me.

 

I think she did something that is very common near the end, she rewrote history to perceive more unhappiness in the past than there really was. She did this to rationalize her decision to cheat and then divorce. The desire to divorce and look elsewhere was there for years, but really, I'm not a bad guy and she knows that. So, she finally had to "trump up the charges to get the conviction she wanted." I believe all of this was mostly sub-conscious.

 

I do know that she explicitly started slacking in all of her duties in order to try to get me to leave her--I was oblivious and it didn't work. Also, in retrospect, I see after the cheating had started she actively sought and pointed out small reasons we weren't compatible--more red flags I missed.

[Steadfast]

Guys (spriggig, YGG, woggle, etc) thanks for a great and insightful discussion. Very to the point and relevant. I hope the OP is reading this.

 

What keeps jumping out at me while reading this is; even if we (the betrayed) knew all of this before or even during our marriage breakdowns, it wouldn't have mattered. It's like telling someone who's never gotten drunk how bad a hangover is. They're too focused on the promise of the party to worry (or care) about after. No matter how strong the warnings. My grandma used to say; 'You can't put an old head on new shoulders.'

 

YGG, I have no doubt that on a romantic/relationship level you either are, or will someday bring great joy and happiness into someone's life. You have you figured out, and when that happens we're 75% of the way there.

 

For the rest of us, the recently betrayed or veterans of the war, we can take solace in the fact that we are all responsible for us, and no one else. No matter how much we love and miss our exes, no matter what was lost. This shared knowledge and growing makes LS a valuable tool for healing.

 

It's like that scene from Indiana Jones (sorry, don't remember the title) when he's in the secret cave with the old watchman who's guarding the cup of Christ. A harsh and cruel fate awaits those who misjudge, but Indy thinks it through and grabs the right one. 'You have chosen wisely'.

[Woggle]

My 2nd wife is certainly more mature than my first wife and certainly more fun since I don't consider coke binges and constant drama to be enjoyable activities. Being betrayed that first time especially since I did everything I could to make a great life for us and be a good husband put a wall over my heart that just won't budge. Even my friends who are players that will never marry tell me how lucky I am to have found her yet I am so paranoid of that bomb dropping that I am afraid to do anything in this marriage and seeing the misery of the men all around me certainly does not help my insecurity.