Forcing Dday. Things to consider?

[Silly_Girl]

If your conscience considers telling not to be a violation of your values, and if you feel - having carefully considered every possible consequence and even many you don't consider possible - that you can deal with any / all fall-out it might generate, and if your motivation to tell is stronger than your motivation not to tell - then telling is feasible. Otherwise not.

 

This was from another thread, about whether to reveal an affair. I am trying to consider this in my own personal context, and am going round in circles. I am considering emailing MM's W next week and telling her about the affair.

 

The background:

 

MM with W for over 10 years. Very British, middle-class, stiff upper lip type relationship. No sex. No emotional intimacy. Some compatibility around day to day routines and general house/holiday type stuff. Lots of conflict avoidance and periods of silence.

 

W left for her own MM, came back home when her MM went back to his W. She remained extremely unhappy with (my) MM for a long time. Never making plans for the future, saying she didn't know if she planned to stay, making it clear to him HE was making her unhappy. Refused counselling.

 

I came on the scene, slowly, slowly things improve between them. To the point that nearly a year later they are better than they have been for years, and as good as ever.

 

MM and I love each other. We are both committed to being together and 100% certain about our future.

 

But, he seems unable to tell her it's over. He tried earlier in the summer, but did not mention me. In fact, denied I existed. She said it was unfair of him to leave her at this stage in her life, that things had never been better, that she could not afford the house on her own, that she came back to him from her MM and he accepted those terms, at that time, and she has been wasting her time if she could have sought happiness elsewhere.

 

My MM is PETRIFIED of confrontation. Really. I have never known anyone struggle that much. He drives home from work talking himself up, building courage, ready to tell her, ready to do what is right by everyone. He gets in the door and freezes.

 

He is in a mess. He knows if he stays he WILL cheat on her in future. He knows she is not happy - she has decided to settle with her lot and has made it clear that this is what she is doing. He hates that he hides so much of himself away to be with her. He said he NEVER thinks 'I want to stay with W' or 'I belong with W', it is always me, but then he puts all these boundaries up and starts worrying about the smallest detail in the 'plot', as it were, and finds it difficult to secure his sights on the future and take steps forward.

 

He is worried she will remain unhappy for a long time and he will have been selfish to have 'abandoned' her (I may be wrong but when we talk this stuff I get the impression these are her words). Her happiness has almost come first, for both of them, and he does not personally see a way he can assert his needs over hers. It is a very deeply-ingrained habit for him to break. He wants to break it. He told her he was moving out previously, but because he denied my existence, telling her now is twice as difficult.

 

He feels terrible about the fact he is cheating on her, but feels worse about how he is treating me. He's desperate not to lose me (not desperate enough to DO something?!?). He has convinced himself he is sparing her by having his needs met elsewhere. He suspects she suspects there is someone else. He has tried twice last week to tell her about us, one time the conversation took a turn to her relationship and her ongoing contact with her ex-AP. The next time he said he had something important to tell her and she asked that if it was about their relationship could they leave it until after the holiday, she didn't want to discuss it now. And he (most unlike I would react) accepted that.

 

He's away (with her, it was booked during our NC) and he has gone quiet as of yesterday. He is possibly somewhere very remote, I don't know for myself but I know he's not expecting to have signal a lot of the time. I think he's bottling it and doesn't want to have to tell me he hasn't spoken to her about us.

 

I have mentioned to MM that at times I have thought it best to tell his wife. So SHE knows the full status of her relationship, so that if she chooses to accept that for herself, and he chooses to stay, so be it.

 

I know that contacting her may well mean that he ends up hating me. That's something I am prepared for. I do not wish to be an OW past the end of this month. He and I spent time together last weekend for the first time in 2.5 months. I am surer than ever I want to be with him. And even more sure I don't want to do this to someone (his W) any more, and do not wish to sit and watch someone I love deeply living a painful existence. And I want a relationship, or for it to end. I tried withdrawing before. It didn't suit me. I feel I need an 'event', an ending. It was the lack of ending before that left me barely a shadow of myself.

 

Having spent hours and hours and hours talking to MM about he and I, and her and him and everything and anything relationship-related, I couldn't be more sure that it would be crazy for me not to have done all I personally can to resolve the situation.

 

Going back to the quote above - anyone got any thoughts as to what I may encounter, if I decide to do this?

[NoIDidn't]

I admit to not having read the entire thing, but I did want to respond.

 

Sounds like he doesn't like being her "default" choice, more than anything else. Also sounds like he's told you an awful lot that may or may not be entirely on the level.

 

If you send that email, you'll be doing the job for him. And will likely end up spending your life with him doing the job for him as well. Do you really want that? Is it possible that is why she cheated, left, and came back (he allows others to do the hard work for him)?

 

What does your therapist think of your idea of sending her an email? I found it funny that he said if he stays he WILL cheat on her (again) as if there is nothing special about his current cheating. I have to wonder if he sees you as getting him out of this marriage, so he can move on and finally freely date others (not just you).

 

As far as the possible consequences of telling, wouldn't inheriting a manchild be the worst of your consequences?

[LucreziaBorgia]

If you are with a MM who has to be forced into a Dday, then the likeliest outcome of forcing one for him is not the one you would want to see. It is more likely to end your affair than it is to end his marriage.

 

For whatever reason, he wants to stay married to her and I really don't think he has even considered bringing up your affair to his wife, much less making any real plans or moves to leave. Forcing a Dday isn't going to change that, and I seriously doubt his W will leave him.

 

Based on what you've wrote about their marriage, I don't really see why he would want to stay married - only he knows that, and he seems pretty intent on staying married to her.

 

I feel I need an 'event', an ending.

 

Sending your email will likely do the trick.

[freestyle]

Do you really, really want to invest yourself in a conflict avoider?

 

All the issues he claims are happening in the marriage could very well become your nightmare someday.......

 

..will you ever know what he's really thinking, or will a part of you always wonder if he's just saying, "Okay, okay!!" just to get you off his back when you try to discuss issues in the relationship??

 

...just food for thought.

 

Conflict avoiders can often turn out to be passive controllers.........

[Silly_Girl]

If you are with a MM who has to be forced into a Dday, then the likeliest outcome of forcing one for him is not the one you would want to see. It is more likely to end your affair than it is to end his marriage.

 

That's definitely a strong possibility. But I've had my fill of being OW. I have bad dreams, the guilt gets to me for one thing...

 

For whatever reason, he wants to stay married to her and I really don't think he has even considered bringing up your affair to his wife, much less making any real plans or moves to leave.

 

I'm happy he has attempted to tell her, and that he told her before he was leaving. She has hung on hard since then. She doesn't love him in the traditional sense, or how one would want to be loved by their wife, but she definitely doesn't want to be left alone. Which I can understand.

 

Forcing a Dday isn't going to change that, and I seriously doubt his W will leave him.

 

I have doubts his wife would leave him. Appearances and the status quo will likely mean more than the state of the marriage.

 

Based on what you've wrote about their marriage, I don't really see why he would want to stay married - only he knows that, and he seems pretty intent on staying married to her.

 

He doesn't want to stay married. He's spent the last ten years burying his feelings, going along with her belief that their relationship is 'normal' and the best he'll ever get. Believing that no one else is truly happy and as there's no plate-throwing or shouting then it must be pretty 'okay'. There are so many situations he's found himself in that he's started to question then backed off considering himself incapable of making that call and sitting tight hoping things will get better.

 

Sending your email will likely do the trick.

 

I wonder if they may become closer, perhaps this may be the final straw. Perhaps this could trigger them to get the professional help they are both adamant they don't want. Which I feel could be very good, for both of them. I really want him to be happy and if he can be happy with her then that's what I want for him.

[sadintexas]

I think you should do it. It's better than the status quo and you'll finally get an answer. It just may not be the answer you want, but you seem prepared for that.

 

When you wrote that he said he knew he would cheat on her again, to me it almost comes across like he knows you'll eventually move on and he'll find someone else. It just sounds like he knows there will be a new start somewhere down the line.

[NoIDidn't]

When you wrote that he said he knew he would cheat on her again, to me it almost comes across like he knows you'll eventually move on and he'll find someone else. It just sounds like he knows there will be a new start somewhere down the line.

 

And I can't see attempting to help someone end their marriage if that is the case.

[Silly_Girl]

Do you really, really want to invest yourself in a conflict avoider?

 

What frustrates me is that I don't see that between he and I. Except right now!!! He raises things, will impart 'bad news' (because he knows things are worse overall if he does not). He telephones immediately if anything has gone awry. That's what frustrates me most is that he deals with our relationship well, our relationship is like that. Theirs has a dozen years of habit and role-play set in it.

 

All the issues he claims are happening in the marriage could very well become your nightmare someday.......

 

I think it's possible I've been too quick to dismiss that train of thought, if I'm totally honest. Because I didn't see it as an issue. But if he HAS gone quiet on me, deliberately, then it's staring me in the face!

 

 

..will you ever know what he's really thinking, or will a part of you always wonder if he's just saying, "Okay, okay!!" just to get you off his back when you try to discuss issues in the relationship??

 

We have talked about that a lot, and of examples where he's acted in one way with me and can't begin to comprehend why he does not feel able to do so with his wife. He admits it's crazy. It's almost as though he feels he's helped build his own prison and this is his punishment for not standing up all the times he could have done. He blames himself 100% for the situation he finds himself in.

 

...just food for thought.

 

Conflict avoiders can often turn out to be passive controllers.........

 

That's not something I'd really thought of, in this context. Perhaps because I'm understandably seeing first and foremost the impact of their relationship on my relationship with him. If you remove her and see just he and I... I don't know... Maybe that fits. I definitely need to give that some thought. I think I've spent so much time feeling sad for him I've lost the edge I would have had in a cleaner scenario.

[Silly_Girl]

I think you should do it. It's better than the status quo and you'll finally get an answer. It just may not be the answer you want, but you seem prepared for that.

 

When you wrote that he said he knew he would cheat on her again, to me it almost comes across like he knows you'll eventually move on and he'll find someone else. It just sounds like he knows there will be a new start somewhere down the line.

 

Not sure. Perhaps. With regards the cheating, it's not that he doesn't consider our relationship to be special and better than, and different to, anything he's ever had before. It's a reluctant acknowledgement that although he did so for some years, he cannot, try as he might, live the rest of his life without sex. More so since meeting me.

 

He is also aware that I am likely to be the only opportunity for an exit affair and if he doesn't leave to be with me, he'll never leave. He hates that idea. But still it does not spur him on and instil the courage he must have to resolve things.

[sadintexas]

Not sure. Perhaps. With regards the cheating, it's not that he doesn't consider our relationship to be special and better than, and different to, anything he's ever had before. It's a reluctant acknowledgement that although he did so for some years, he cannot, try as he might, live the rest of his life without sex. More so since meeting me.

 

He is also aware that I am likely to be the only opportunity for an exit affair and if he doesn't leave to be with me, he'll never leave. He hates that idea. But still it does not spur him on and instil the courage he must have to resolve things.

 

Yeah my point doesn't really have to do with how he feels about you but more specifically the fact that he knows YOU will tire of him not leaving (i.e. he's NOT leaving) and YOU will move on forcing him to find another AP at some point.

 

I'm not trying to say at all that he doesn't have genuine feelings for you, but his feelings/fears about leaving the marriage are obviously stronger. That's why I think telling is good. It will probably end this dynamic FOR YOU. He already knows what he's doing. Truthfully, you already know what he's doing because he's doing it right now. The question is, are you really ready to force his hand and accept the truth? Once you do this, you can't turn back.

[Silly_Girl]

Yeah my point doesn't really have to do with how he feels about you but more specifically the fact that he knows YOU will tire of him not leaving (i.e. he's NOT leaving) and YOU will move on forcing him to find another AP at some point.

 

I'm not trying to say at all that he doesn't have genuine feelings for you, but his feelings/fears about leaving the marriage are obviously stronger. That's why I think telling is good. It will probably end this dynamic FOR YOU. He already knows what he's doing. Truthfully, you already know what he's doing because he's doing it right now. The question is, are you really ready to force his hand and accept the truth? Once you do this, you can't turn back.

 

I understand what you say. I feel sad for him because he feels he's trapped but currently I am too. Yes. I think that, given how things have been with us recently, he isn't going to become 'more sure'. We're there and he leaves or doesn't. I know for a fact how heartbroken and upset I will be if he and I come to nothing. Doubly so if they choose to stay as they are, but I am better off on my own than my body being in one place and my heart/mind in another. I'll make a rubbish job of everything in those circumstances. I've met the man I want to spend the rest of my life with but that helps me none if I can only spend three nights a fortnight with him. Dreading the pain, to be honest... but I see no other options.

[pureinheart]

I wonder if they may become closer, perhaps this may be the final straw. Perhaps this could trigger them to get the professional help they are both adamant they don't want. Which I feel could be very good, for both of them. I really want him to be happy and if he can be happy with her then that's what I want for him.

 

SG, I remember oh so well my sitch with exDM...same thing, horrible M, her hanging on in a weird sort of way. My R with him did in fact make his M better.

 

I finally walked away because I couldn't take it any longer. ExDM was very torn, and I was tired and exhausted.

 

I remember praying that if their M was meant to be, that there would be a way for it to work.

 

You know what, it's the heart that counts and SG, you have a lot of heart. In bold, this is absolutely wonderful, he doesn't realise what a friend he has in you.

[Silly_Girl]

SG, I remember oh so well my sitch with exDM...same thing, horrible M, her hanging on in a weird sort of way. My R with him did in fact make his M better.

 

I finally walked away because I couldn't take it any longer. ExDM was very torn, and I was tired and exhausted.

 

I remember praying that if their M was meant to be, that there would be a way for it to work.

 

You know what, it's the heart that counts and SG, you have a lot of heart. In bold, this is absolutely wonderful, he doesn't realise what a friend he has in you.

 

Thanks PIH. Glad you understand. I've always felt so sad for them both. Some of the things he's said about their set-up, quite casually, have stunned me and he's clearly (as we can often do) normalised such a lot that he now has convinced himself he would be an ogre to leave. The opposite of how I see it... I have tried many times to 'sell' MC to him, to no avail.

 

I see that him leaving her leaves two people fantastically happy. One not. But if he could stay and they manage to find fulfilment and I'm the 'not happy' god, of course I'd want that. I have absolutely no expectation they could do that, feels like too much water under the bridge, there are many layers of history and issues unspoken. He has lived such a sheltered life, escaped to the golf course whenever possible and stayed in the office long after everyone else when there's really no need. I couldn't live like that. But I'd be rooting for them if that's what he chose. He cried with me at the weekend, when I told him I couldn't go on. I see he doesn't want to lose me but I can't magic him here, he needs to do what needs to be done. It's a horrible situation because there is no happy ending. I carried (pointless) guilt for 9 years for leaving my husband and I know MM is worried about being in the same boat.

 

If this current silence is self-imposed I know he will be miserable, thinking of me constantly, worrying, stressing. That's not at all the holiday I wished for him. Silly man. He KNOWS the stress dissolves when he's done what needs doing, but gets himself in to such a stew beforehand, he practically paralyses himself! It amazes me how well he has done in his career, particularly as he suffers a medical condition which gives him a distinct disadvantage. Again, it appears it really comes down to him being like this with his wife but nowhere else.

[OWoman]

SG I went through something not dissimilar with my H. He made several attempts to have "the talk" with his xW, with similar results to those you outline. Because, like your MM's M, their R had been entirely focused on her happiness, her wants and needs, he similarly felt guilty about "abandoning" her (especially as, during a previous separation, she'd fallen apart completely, become suicidal, and it had all placed huge strain on the kids who'd suffered terribly) but unable to speak up and assert his own right to his own desires, wants and needs - which had been so suppressed throughout their R that he had not even recognised that he had any, before the A alerted him to those.

 

The difference is - my H was in IC. This allowed him, over time, to reclaim his agency, and to force "the talk" - even though it dídn't go according to plan (she didn't believe him). Still, taking the agency and mustering the courage to face her, to face his own emasculation and finally to leave, has allowed him to continue that trajectory in our R, so there's been little chance of our M sliding down into the same deadly dynamic of theirs.

 

By outing the A to his W, you run the risk of taking that momentum from him, of depriving him of his agency and putting yourself into a position of power over him - which could wreck the dynamic of your R. That is a risk. Alternately, freeing him from the crippling constraints of his M could allow him to embrace the opportunity to face his own demons, to regain his sense of agency and to work hard (through IC or other appropriate means) to become "whole" again. And you won't know which way it could go until it happens.

 

I had time - I had my own contextual issues to resolve - so I did not have the same sense of urgency you seem to have, and I could wait until IC delivered him into the place where he could stand up and do what he needed to, by himself. You're not there, and your MM is not in the same place (via IC) that my H was at that time. So you'll need to review all the evidence you have, and make your best educated guess as to the probable outcome of telling her - and then act on that.

 

Good luck - whichever decision you make

[Silly_Girl]

Thank you so much. Your reply has made me cry but I needed to read it. And I'll do so again and again. I feel so torn. And confused, not about my feelings but what is the right thing to do for everyone, including me.

 

Thanks again OWoman. It is easy for people not to believe men like this exist. He had no clue he could feel this way or that people could behave as I do, as he does when he's with me etc. But it was there, deep deep down he had a feeling something wasn't right, but just went with the flow, doing what was right and he nearly had a breakdown when she made it clear how very very unhappy he was making her, yet she did nothing to show him what was wrong, where he was deficient, merely made him feel as though he was a terrible and uncaring husband which really wasn't the case.

[torranceshipman]

Why don't you step back a bit and really give yourself a few days to try and think all this through?

 

My concern is this: that you feel sorry for him, view him as putting his W's happiness ahead of his own...yet he has been having an A for quite a while and lying to her a lot, and says that he knows he will cheat in the future. And that he is a bit of a mess and is petrified of conflict. I don't think that he is really putting her first at all. And now, despite all the protestations from him that the M is dead, he is on vacation with her, and won't move out of their family home or end the M, which does kind of suggest that he is happy where he is, and might well be saying one thing to you, but doing another.

 

I think that when you have to force someone's hand, it is because they don't want to take the action on their own, so I think that he just wants an A, and to keep his M. It is up to you what you do, but if you do tell the W, be ready for him to lie and pretend you are a bit of a fruitcake (or similar), for contact from the W, and for him to end things. Sadly (and I could be wrong), I don't think he was going to leave in the 1st place, so in that sense I dont think that you personally would have lost any future with him if you do out the A. If you do tell the W (and I am in fact a fan of honesty), please do try and do it in the most sensitive way possible, and to work out in advance your boundaries for whether you would answer her questions or not, etc.

[jwi71]

. I am considering emailing MM's W next week and telling her about the affair.

 

Why?

 

By telling...what do you hope to gain?

 

MM with W for over 10 years. Very British, middle-class, stiff upper lip type relationship. No sex. No emotional intimacy. Some compatibility around day to day routines and general house/holiday type stuff. Lots of conflict avoidance and periods of silence.

 

W left for her own MM, came back home when her MM went back to his W. She remained extremely unhappy with (my) MM for a long time. Never making plans for the future, saying she didn't know if she planned to stay, making it clear to him HE was making her unhappy. Refused counselling.

 

I came on the scene, slowly, slowly things improve between them. To the point that nearly a year later they are better than they have been for years, and as good as ever.

 

His W told you this?

He told you this?

Some neutral third party told you this?

"Everyone" knows?

 

My point is, be wary of just how good a used car is from the salesman trying to sell it to you.

 

MM and I love each other. We are both committed to being together and 100% certain about our future.

 

But, he seems unable to tell her it's over. He tried earlier in the summer, but did not mention me. In fact, denied I existed.

 

You are going to have explain this.

 

He loves you - its 100% love and the future is certain. And he STILL won't leave? HE has the PERFECT opportunity to leave his horrible no good very bad M and still HIDES you and STAYS?

 

Here he is, "trapped" in the this dead hellish M with a cheating W and when, offered a life of true love and happiness...he chooses his dead M and cheating W.

 

She said it was unfair of him to leave her at this stage in her life, that things had never been better, that she could not afford the house on her own, that she came back to him from her MM and he accepted those terms, at that time, and she has been wasting her time if she could have sought happiness elsewhere.

 

And it was fair for HER to leave HIM before? She gave all kinds of good thought to him then huh?

 

And you missed the fact that, after she left for her MM, HE DIDNT LEAVE HER. You really think he is going to now? Especially since he still lies and hides you from her. Uh - he ain't going anywhere.

 

And I suspect the reality is different from what he says.

 

Since this is a dead no good-loveless sexless M with no future planning....CALL THE WIFE. She won't mind. Nor should he...although he would have to explain why he lies about you and hides you. That should be rich.

 

My MM is PETRIFIED of confrontation. Really. I have never known anyone struggle that much. He drives home from work talking himself up, building courage, ready to tell her, ready to do what is right by everyone. He gets in the door and freezes.

 

As mentioned above...are you certain you want this?

 

 

I think, and I am repeating myself, that should invite his W to lunch. Given this description, she won;t mind at all. NEither would he.

 

My question to you is...if you are so certain he is honest...why do you hesitate to contact her? Have you told your MM of this plan?

[Silly_Girl]

Why don't you step back a bit and really give yourself a few days to try and think all this through?

 

That's what I have been thinking. Since the last post here I've been thinking I should cool it. When he dropped out of contact I panicked I think. The ridiculous thing is, he was moving out previously, when I turned tail and ran. There's a chance he'd have gone, back then, if I hadn't been so insistent and impatient.

 

My concern is this: that you feel sorry for him, view him as putting his W's happiness ahead of his own...yet he has been having an A for quite a while and lying to her a lot, and says that he knows he will cheat in the future. And that he is a bit of a mess and is petrified of conflict. I don't think that he is really putting her first at all.

 

I agree. But he is the one who is sat in front of her, whilst she cries and says it would be so unfair after all 'she's been through' for him to go. I know, I know....

 

And now, despite all the protestations from him that the M is dead, he is on vacation with her, and won't move out of their family home or end the M, which does kind of suggest that he is happy where he is, and might well be saying one thing to you, but doing another.

 

I don't buy that. He has no need to keep me strung along. To drop everything last week to come. To spend 7 hours on the phone, in his car, overnight on a 'schoolnight', talking to me until 4am and then driving round planning what to say to her and when. He just doesn't need that crap in his life. I'm satisfied that he wants to go, and can't seem to put one foot in front of the other.

 

I think that when you have to force someone's hand, it is because they don't want to take the action on their own, so I think that he just wants an A, and to keep his M.

 

I have said that to him. He's adamant that's not the case.

 

It is up to you what you do, but if you do tell the W, be ready for him to lie and pretend you are a bit of a fruitcake (or similar), for contact from the W, and for him to end things.

 

Yes definitely he may end things. But, I see that as an improvement. I won't after the event, I'm sure. I'm not sure he's going to lie about it. I don't feel that's the likely outcome. He's not trying to stay at all costs. He's already told her once he's going.

 

Sadly (and I could be wrong), I don't think he was going to leave in the 1st place, so in that sense I dont think that you personally would have lost any future with him if you do out the A. If you do tell the W (and I am in fact a fan of honesty), please do try and do it in the most sensitive way possible, and to work out in advance your boundaries for whether you would answer her questions or not, etc.

 

I have thought a lot about what to tell her. I've drafted something. But it feels so bloody inadequate in the circumstances. I would definitely answer questions if she had them. I feel like a total P.O.S. but at the same time, I don't want to leave this period with the knowledge she'll just be sitting through more of the same. If she wants that, that's her call.

[YellowShark]

I have thought a lot about what to tell her. I've drafted something. But it feels so bloody inadequate in the circumstances. I would definitely answer questions if she had them. I feel like a total P.O.S. but at the same time, I don't want to leave this period with the knowledge she'll just be sitting through more of the same. If she wants that, that's her call.

 

IMHO MM may not like it that you went over his head and told his wife what he must tell his wife. Additionally, if you were his wife and received your "email" how would you process it? Good? Bad? Ugly?

 

Just my two cents.

 

p.s. If you had found a decent single guy you wouldn't be going through all this doubt, pain and angst. Food for thought, not a judgement.

[Silly_Girl]

Why?

 

By telling...what do you hope to gain?

 

A change in the status quo.

 

His W told you this?

He told you this?

Some neutral third party told you this?

"Everyone" knows?

 

The things you are asking, it is 95% from him, the rest is from various snooping and texts he's shown me. And I spent 8 years with a very good liar. I'm good at piecing bits and pieces together and them not adding up. I have a skill and have not yet had any issue on this front.

 

My point is, be wary of just how good a used car is from the salesman trying to sell it to you.

 

He's really not trying to sell me anything. Not at all. If anything he's embarrassed at himself.

 

You are going to have explain this.

 

That he denied I existed? He felt it was best to say he'd had enough, the no-sex, the tension etc. And he sorted a rented room and was moving out. They had 2 conversations and she thought he was 'utterly crazy', she asked if he'd met someone else, and because we'd agreed (back then) that I 'didn't exist'm he said No. His wife experienced some hassle from her MM's wife and he didn't want me to have the same. And I didn't want to become the focus of their split, it was something I'd maintained from way back. That if they had something worth fighting for then they should. He ought not leave for me, but for himself, because (if relevant) his relationship is just not right for either of them.

 

He loves you - its 100% love and the future is certain. And he STILL won't leave? HE has the PERFECT opportunity to leave his horrible no good very bad M and still HIDES you and STAYS?

 

That's right, hard to understand isn't it?

 

Here he is, "trapped" in the this dead hellish M with a cheating W and when, offered a life of true love and happiness...he chooses his dead M and cheating W.

 

He chooses not to leave yet. He has chosen our relationship. He just hasn't the blindest clue how to go about it.

 

And it was fair for HER to leave HIM before? She gave all kinds of good thought to him then huh?

 

Exactly my point. I maintain she will understand, once she realises the bigger picture. What she couldn't understand was him moving a short while away when their house and everything is just right there. For no real reason. I believe she would understand it once she knows about me. And MM thinks the same. It was his decision to tell her he's met me and is moving away.

 

And you missed the fact that, after she left for her MM, HE DIDNT LEAVE HER. You really think he is going to now? Especially since he still lies and hides you from her. Uh - he ain't going anywhere.

 

Okay, thanks for your opinion.

 

And I suspect the reality is different from what he says.

 

I know you do.

 

Since this is a dead no good-loveless sexless M with no future planning....CALL THE WIFE. She won't mind. Nor should he...although he would have to explain why he lies about you and hides you. That should be rich.

 

As mentioned above...are you certain you want this?

 

This refers to the confrontation, how scared he is. Yes. We've had plenty of wobbles he and I. I'm happy, more than happy, with how we conduct ourselves in our relationship.

 

I think, and I am repeating myself, that should invite his W to lunch. Given this description, she won;t mind at all. NEither would he.

 

Yes. Yes he would. Although I have told him I am considering telling her myself and he has not asked me not to nor encouraged me to.

 

My question to you is...if you are so certain he is honest...why do you hesitate to contact her? Have you told your MM of this plan?

 

I hesitate because I feel strongly he should be the one to do this. For both their sakes. I am only at this point because he seems physically unable to have the conversation.

[NoIDidn't]

I hesitate because I feel strongly he should be the one to do this. For both their sakes. I am only at this point because he seems physically unable to have the conversation.

 

This was the point of my first post in this thread - that he seemed perfectly happy letting you do this step for him. Do you really want that in a man? Whatever dynamic he has learned with her is not going to be unlearned just because he's in a new-er R with you.

 

I think, if you agreed that he should deny your existence when she asked, you should continue to not exist to her as it will only complicate things and give her a reason to call him a liar. I can see that decision was made for obvious reasons, so your emailing her would undo all those reasons and introduce complications that neither of you really ever wanted to deal with.

[torranceshipman]

Sweetie, when you find yourself justifying the fact that your married lover denied your existence to his own cheating W who he won't leave, and you are typing this while he is on a family vacation with her, I think it is a sign that it is not really a R.

 

I mean, how many bad things are there in that one short sentence? You are really better than that. That isn't a R. This is no way to live your life.

 

You are right that if you do end it, things will be better even if they won't feel like they are for a while. Good for you for thinking about getting out.

[Silly_Girl]

This was the point of my first post in this thread - that he seemed perfectly happy letting you do this step for him. Do you really want that in a man? Whatever dynamic he has learned with her is not going to be unlearned just because he's in a new-er R with you.

 

I'm not convinced of that. I lost MASSES of traits and habits and all sorts when I split with my ex. Overnight. I think that's why I am judging him on how he is with me and how I am with him. Not who he is in his marriage.

 

I think, if you agreed that he should deny your existence when she asked, you should continue to not exist to her as it will only complicate things and give her a reason to call him a liar. I can see that decision was made for obvious reasons, so your emailing her would undo all those reasons and introduce complications that neither of you really ever wanted to deal with.

 

That's a really valid point actually. Thanks.

[Silly_Girl]

Sweetie, when you find yourself justifying the fact that your married lover denied your existence to his own cheating W who he won't leave, and you are typing this while he is on a family vacation with her, I think it is a sign that it is not really a R.

 

I mean, how many bad things are there in that one short sentence? You are really better than that. That isn't a R. This is no way to live your life.

 

You are right that if you do end it, things will be better even if they won't feel like they are for a while. Good for you for thinking about getting out.

 

I asked him not to mention me, when he spoke to her. Probably due to guilt. I regretted it once he relayed the conversation they'd had and I realised it was cruel. The biggest problem I had in my last serious relationship was never quite knowing the full truth. Even when I had managed to get 97% of it, it wasn't enough for me. I wanted all of it. I am so cross I was prepared to do that to someone knowing damn well how hard and bewildering that can be.

 

Not saying you're wrong to have your opinion, but STILL I feel as sure as I can possibly be that I want a future with this man. And I may be the craziest person alive. Yes, the circumstances are difficult to say the least, yes he's finding it so hard to leave, yes he agreed to go on their annual holiday with her after I walked away and went NC. I know all that. But I also believe we belong together and there is genuinely nothing that has happened so far that is a deal-breaker for me.

[freestyle]

This was the point of my first post in this thread - that he seemed perfectly happy letting you do this step for him.

Do you really want that in a man? Whatever dynamic he has learned with her is not going to be unlearned just because he's in a new-er R with you.

 

I think, if you agreed that he should deny your existence when she asked, you should continue to not exist to her as it will only complicate things and give her a reason to call him a liar. I can see that decision was made for obvious reasons, so your emailing her would undo all those reasons and introduce complications that neither of you really ever wanted to deal with.

 

 

Well said, NID.

 

Sillygirl, this is what I was hinting at in my post to you earlier.

 

I've spent a lot of time with a conflict avoider myself----it can be a really difficult thing to deal with.

 

You might be cruising along, thinking everything's fine, cuz he never complains or argues......................

 

...and then WHAM!!! He drops a bomb on you about how he's been miserable , or angry about something that happened six months ago. And you're blindsided, and stunned.

 

These are the types who move out without warning---you come home, and their stuff is all gone---except for maybe a note.

 

I realize that is the more drastic scenario, but in general, avoidant people can be hell to be in a relationship with.