Doubts we never had before

[jennie-jennie]

My Opinion: As long as you keep posting here, whatever you post, ppl are going to get all dramatic on you. They thrive on it. They say it in the name of caring for you. But once you don't listen to them then they are quick to spit out the cookie cutter responses that includes the words, table-scraps, 2nd fiddle, leftovers, nasty-little-secret.....blah blah blah.

 

If you post one and two sentences, they will fill in the gaps with drama. If you post a lengthy thought out post, they will break it down & tear it apart with drama.

I have spoken in pm's w/ ppl that found hanging around this forum just brought on doubts they never had before. They found themselves questioning their relationship to an extent that caused stress and problems that didn't even exist before reading the cookie cutter responses here.

 

There seems to be a new trend on LS. Posters are posting worst possible scenarios, one after another, of what might be going on in the extramarital relationship. The OW/OM who post here are obviously in pain and do not need additional pain added to what they are already experiencing.

 

I understand that LS posters are trying to, as they see it, shed light on the affair. But just as a marriage should die of its own accord, so should an affair. Adding doubts and questioning which have no real basis in what is happening is just confusing the issue.

 

It is like Ms. Red says:

You know what is best for you. You don't have to answer every post and you don't have to defend how you feel. I support whatever you choose to do. I wish you well.

 

That's support. Trusting and supporting the OP in finding her own answer, instead of making her doubt her senses.

Edited August 19, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Ellin]

Absolutely agree!

 

I think this trend is quite damaging. It's poisonous, plants the seeds of doubt in people's mind by ripping apart every A situation and bringing it down to the same tired old song: OW/OM shouldn't accept basically anything from MM/MW, otherwise they're letting themselves down, MM/MW is lying cheat that doesn't even deserve being looked at and loves the spouse and will never leave (regardless of the circumstances).

 

It's quite possible that it does lead to the worsening of some R that have a chance of a good outcome.

 

Very sad indeed.

[September]

I couldn't agree more...I thought the same thing. Some people just love to dissect paragraph by paragraph finding fault with any small thing and then blowing it way out of proportion.

 

It would be nice if people could just answer question without appearing so moralistic. We are, after all, humans with real feelings and emotions.

 

One of my favourite sayings and I have said it many times before;

 

He who is without sin, cast the first stone....

[Ellin]

 

He who is without sin, cast the first stone....

I agree.

 

When someone makes a judgement about a fellow human being, they place themselves above that person, which can be viewed as morally questionable in itself.

 

Also, none of us can say with certainty what they WOULD do IF they were in another person's shoes.

 

Lastly, judgement is never helpful, when someone is meant to receive support with emotional problems so there's a contradiction in saying it is done out of desire to help.

 

But it's not even judegement we're talking about here.

It's the intention and effort to present the worst possible scenario as true of someone's personal situation, which can be quite damaging in many ways and the motivation behind it is rather hard for me to understand.

[sadintexas]

I wouldn't really call dissenting opinions judgment. I, for one, am not emotionally tied to this board or the people on it. I call it like I see it without judgment, criticism, etc. I suppose there are some that react from emotions, but I don't think that's the majority of the cases.

 

Cookie cutter answers fit cookie cutter cases. Show me a different story and I'll show you a different answer.

[Ellin]

I wouldn't really call dissenting opinions judgment. I, for one, am not emotionally tied to this board or the people on it. I call it like I see it without judgment, criticism, etc. I suppose there are some that react from emotions, but I don't think that's the majority of the cases.

 

Cookie cutter answers fit cookie cutter cases. Show me a different story and I'll show you a different answer.

SIT, your responses are balanced.

 

Just wanted to say one doesn't need to be emotionally tied to the board or other posters to give "unbalanced" advice. People are often "emotionally tied" to the events from their past and respond from that place.

[Silly_Girl]

When I turn to friends for advice and support, inevitably they tell me what they think they would do, in my situation, and I want that. It helps me see things through different eyes. I don't feel I'm being judged when that happens, or that they're asserting moral superiority over me. We all know that until we're in a spot we don't know truly how we might react, so it's all hypothetical. And the same person can act in one way to a situation and then in entirely a different way should the same situation happen again.

 

I've read VERY few posts on here that didn't seem to come with the very best of intentions, be it a 'tough love' approach or something much fluffier.

[sadintexas]

SIT, your responses are balanced.

 

Just wanted to say one doesn't need to be emotionally tied to the board or other posters to give "unbalanced" advice. People are often "emotionally tied" to the events from their past and respond from that place.

 

Well, I agree that some people advocate their position based on a different set of circumstances. Having been an OW as well as a BS (and not a BS who blamed the OW) I can see both sides.

 

When I first started riding horses, I had a much older gentleman (grandfather, old school cowboy type) mentor me. I remember him telling me that everyone is going to have an opinion on how to do things, and most people will give you that opinion whether solicited or not. The best thing you can do is be open, listen to each one, take what works for you, and file the rest. Some are going to make sense and some simply aren't. If you're open minded, you just might learn something. It is he that thinks his way is the only way that never learns or grows.

[jennie-jennie]

I want to emphasize this, as it summarizes what this thread is about:

 

It's not even judgement we're talking about here.

It's the intention and effort to present the worst possible scenario as true of someone's personal situation, which can be quite damaging in many ways and the motivation behind it is rather hard for me to understand.

 

Why are we adding details to the OP's personal situation, instead of responding to the situation as presented by the OP?

 

It resembles gaslighting to me:

"Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented to the victim with the intent of making them doubt their own memory and perception."

(Wikipedia)

[In_Repair]

This is a support forum for OM/OW. Support doesn't always consist of a hug and heartfelt "it's going to be okay honey". My posts are usually intended to make an AP open their eyes a little wider and be prepared for the worst case scenario. Generally, I don't care about the WS when composing my replies. In my personal experience, they are akin to drug addicts, master manipulators so wrapped up in their lies that they wouldn't know the truth if they were hit over the head with it. My advice is meant to keep an AP from getting played by what usually seems to be a bull****ter WS. If the WS is actually sincere and does what they should, then my anonymous comments on a public message board shouldn't mean very much...

 

I think it's more damaging for them to come here and read fluffed up tales about high success rates involved in these types of relationships.

[nadiaj2727]

From what I can see, most* OPs come to LS because they are unhappy with the current status of the A. It is very rare to have someone come here and say "Hi, I'm cool with my A." Most often it seems to me that OPs are saying, "I'm not happy with being an OP and I'm trying to change something about my situation." AND most people come here seeking advice/opinions/thoughts on their situation.

 

(*Disclaimer for the rest of the thread: There are exceptions to every time I say "most" or "probably" or whatever.)

 

So let's face it, in most cases happy, well-adjusted people don't need to ask strangers on the Internet to help them with their relationship problems. Top that off with the fact that many OPs are here because they feel they *can't* share their problems with or seek advice from people in real life -- they feel like their close family and friends would not approve of what they are doing, and strangers or enemies would ridicule them.

 

So, what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me most OPs on LS know that what they are doing is not ideal, and they want advice. Those of us who have BTDT, or people who have been hurt by As or people who are just wiser and helpful, give them our opinions and advice. We know from experience that most As are hurtful and sadly most are cookie cutter situations.

 

Yet sometimes OPs don't like the advice they are given because it isn't want they want to hear. So to me the defensive people come off as looking like the ones who only want the opposite cookie cutter advice (maybe yours is different, you found the one prince charming MM out of all the other MMs who act similarly, there's still hope that you'll live happily ever after, etc.) To me, that is just silly. If an OP isn't able to hear the truth that they are probably going to stay hurt or get hurt more, that the situation probably is going to get worse instead of better, that their MM is most likely to be just like the rest... well then maybe they shouldn't come to an Internet board and ask for advice and opinions. IMHO.

 

And I don't see these judgemental posts everyone is talking about. I see a lot of "accept the situation like it is, or get out" advice, because let's face, those are usually the two options that an OP realistically has. An OP is not in a very powerful position. If she or he wants to decice his or her own destiny, those are their choices. Or they can stay stuck beng unhappy in the situation and hoping and wishing for it to change and hoping and wishing that people on the Internet will feed their hopes instead of try to get them to see reality.

 

That is just my opinion as someone for whom LS was a hugely helpful eye-opener. To me, there is no such thing as "doubts we never had before." If someone doubts their situation from what someone else says on LS, they already had doubts about their situation in the first place. If not, they weigh the advice and pick what feels most right to them, and discard what doesn't. People who are sure of themselves and strong in their decisions do not feel swayed by the words of strangers.

[Spark1111]

Do you believe it is intentional?

 

In a public forum, does it really matter if it is or it is not?

 

If my perception convinces me that the advice of a poster holds a nugget of wisdom or insight for me, I will embrace it, or at least, ponder upon it.

 

If it does not apply to my situation or does not ring true for my experience, than I do not have to embrace it.

 

Let's not be too thin-skinned here.

 

Some advice can be hurtful, blunt, or plant seeds of doubt....but still may bear thinking about and then I ultimately DECIDE what is most helpful.

 

Others may be trying to give me things to think about, which may be painful, but may be enlightening too.

 

If I truly believed my situation was completely harmonious and felt totally secure in my relationship, why would I be posting on a public forum seeking the advice and opinions and experiences of others?

 

I can't just expect hand-holding without some brickbats.

 

That the nature of an anonymous forum.

[OM1]

I have to say, I for one really appreciate all opinions - even the harsh criticism. I think no matter how you slice it, having an A is wrong. Maybe the outcome can be good. Maybe the M wasn't supposed to work and you are meant to be together. Who knows. But it doesn't change the fact that having an A is not a good thing to do.

 

As an OM who is desperately trying to stick to NC and recover, my take on it is this: no, I didn't try to get into an A with a MW. It was two people that fell for each other under less-than-ideal circumstances. But we BOTH had a choice - me and her. And when the time came, we both made a choice that most folks are going to say was wrong. So while I do come here for support from other OMs and OWs that have shared my experiences, I also FULLY expect harsh criticism from those that (rightfully) respect and revere the sanctity of marriage.

[jennie-jennie]

I think it's more damaging for them to come here and read fluffed up tales about high success rates involved in these types of relationships.

 

I must say I have never seen a post on LS stating high success rates for affairs whether written by an OW/OM or anyone else. So I don't know why you are bringing that up.

[2sure]

The really helpful thing about a forum like this is that we can all try to benefit from the hindsight of others who have had similar experiences. If that hindsight makes one question their own circumstances...thats a good thing. Thats why we are all here right ? To question, explore, & learn.

[Spark1111]

I agree.

 

When someone makes a judgement about a fellow human being, they place themselves above that person, which can be viewed as morally questionable in itself.

 

Also, none of us can say with certainty what they WOULD do IF they were in another person's shoes.

 

Lastly, judgement is never helpful, when someone is meant to receive support with emotional problems so there's a contradiction in saying it is done out of desire to help.

 

But it's not even judegement we're talking about here.

It's the intention and effort to present the worst possible scenario as true of someone's personal situation, which can be quite damaging in many ways and the motivation behind it is rather hard for me to understand.[/QUOTE]

 

It is no different for fBS, or fWS.

 

There are many who will paint a worst-case scenario for those trying to reconcile, or those truly remorseful for their affair, or those who used their AP as opposed to thos who love their AP.

 

Worst case scenarios and harsh judgements can abound on any thread. Motivations are open to interpretation, as is judgements.

 

Everyone is presenting from their very personal and respective perceptions and viewpoints.

 

I'm okay with it.

 

Why aren't you?

[Spark1111]

I agree.

 

When someone makes a judgement about a fellow human being, they place themselves above that person, which can be viewed as morally questionable in itself.

 

Also, none of us can say with certainty what they WOULD do IF they were in another person's shoes.

 

Lastly, judgement is never helpful, when someone is meant to receive support with emotional problems so there's a contradiction in saying it is done out of desire to help.

 

But it's not even judegement we're talking about here.

It's the intention and effort to present the worst possible scenario as true of someone's personal situation, which can be quite damaging in many ways and the motivation behind it is rather hard for me to understand.[/QUOTE]

 

It is no different for fBS, or fWS.

 

There are many who will paint a worst-case scenario for those trying to reconcile, or those truly remorseful for their affair, or those who used their AP as opposed to thos who love their AP.

 

Worst case scenarios and harsh judgements can abound on any thread. Motivations are open to interpretation, as are judgements.

 

Everyone is presenting from their very personal and respective perceptions and viewpoints.

 

I'm okay with it.

 

Why aren't you?

[Confused4Now]

This is a support forum for OM/OW. Support doesn't always consist of a hug and heartfelt "it's going to be okay honey". My posts are usually intended to make an AP open their eyes a little wider and be prepared for the worst case scenario. Generally, I don't care about the WS when composing my replies. In my personal experience, they are akin to drug addicts, master manipulators so wrapped up in their lies that they wouldn't know the truth if they were hit over the head with it. My advice is meant to keep an AP from getting played by what usually seems to be a bull****ter WS. If the WS is actually sincere and does what they should, then my anonymous comments on a public message board shouldn't mean very much...

 

I think it's more damaging for them to come here and read fluffed up tales about high success rates involved in these types of relationships.

CHA CHING!!! Same here for me....I read every story and look at every situation uniquely... my support here is usually from my own experiences and I talk in the first person. I try to open the EYES of the AP so they don't get played or recognize they are in really deep. BTDT

[NoIDidn't]

This type of thread has a different incarnation each time, but it basically comes down disagreeing with people that disagree with you and calling it "judgment". And usually from the same group of posters.

 

What I am particularly interested in this time is that the last time this came up, the posters that aren't OPs were accused of not growing because they posted the same things over and over again. Can the same be said of the posters here that continue to post the same "support" for affairs over and over again - that they aren't growing?

 

I personally think no OP would come here if there weren't already doubts to begin with.

[OWoman]

There seems to be a new trend on LS. Posters are posting worst possible scenarios, one after another, of what might be going on in the extramarital relationship. The OW/OM who post here are obviously in pain and do not need additional pain added to what they are already experiencing.

 

I understand that LS posters are trying to, as they see it, shed light on the affair. But just as a marriage should die of its own accord, so should an affair. Adding doubts and questioning which have no real basis in what is happening is just confusing the issue.

 

It is like Ms. Red says:

 

 

That's support. Trusting and supporting the OP in finding her own answer, instead of making her doubt her senses.

 

Jen, thanks for posting this. Yesterday, on another thread, I posted something similar in response to a post from someone else - but my reply (which was long and detailed) got eaten by the system, and I didn't have the energy or will to live to start typing all that again...

[jennie-jennie]

That is just my opinion as someone for whom LS was a hugely helpful eye-opener. To me, there is no such thing as "doubts we never had before." If someone doubts their situation from what someone else says on LS, they already had doubts about their situation in the first place. If not, they weigh the advice and pick what feels most right to them, and discard what doesn't. People who are sure of themselves and strong in their decisions do not feel swayed by the words of strangers.

 

Most likely the OW/OM who comes here is vulnerable and hurting, and when all the LS posters scream "This is worse than you thought" it is easy to question yourself and your perception of the situation.

 

I am a strong woman, but twice (once here and once on an OW forum) I have lost my emotional balance due to the unanimousness of the other posters on the forum. It took a while for me to put myself together again.

[jthorne]

I try to stay away from the OW board nowadays, it's part of my past, and too much of a downer. Your thread was listed on the index (I guess that's what it's called). So I guess I had to read it out of lurid curiosity.

 

I'm confused, Jennie. This has to be the fifth thread you have started since I have been a member here on what you think other's should do to support an OW/OM. The responses are always the same. The current OW who think they are entitled to have an affair always agree with you, while everyone else always say the it's an open forum, you can't dictate what everyone says, everyone has an opinion and is entitles to them- yada yada.

 

If all support consisted of this:

That's support. Trusting and supporting the OP in finding her own answer, instead of making her doubt her senses

how would there be any discussion here? I know you didn't forget the support and "discussion" part. What confuses me is that you in the past have said that you preferred LS to other OW forums because of the dissenting opinions. Further, you posted to me in another thread that every time someone disagreed with you, it only strengthened your resolve. (I don't have the time to look the quote up, but it's on the "MM lies to W but not OW thread.)

 

So what's the problem?

 

I mentioned not hanging out on the OW board, because I'm going to assume that the OW and Infidelity boards are the ones you mainly frequent. Take a look at some of the other boards here. Some people are going to have a consistently negative opinion, some positive. The dilemma you describe is not specific to the OW and Infidelity boards. It's human nature for people to draw upon their experiences and respond accordingly.

 

My two cents.

Ok, bye.

[NoIDidn't]

I think it's more damaging for them to come here and read fluffed up tales about high success rates involved in these types of relationships.

 

I must say I have never seen a post on LS stating high success rates for affairs whether written by an OW/OM or anyone else. So I don't know why you are bringing that up.

 

IMO, he's bringing it up because it seems that that is all that some posters want to hear.

 

Its obvious that you don't like the negative or neutral opinions offered, so it must be that the posters only want to hear good things - like they'll be the next Mrs. MM if that's what they are hoping for - in response to their posts.

[jennie-jennie]

This type of thread has a different incarnation each time, but it basically comes down disagreeing with people that disagree with you and calling it "judgment". And usually from the same group of posters.

 

What I am particularly interested in this time is that the last time this came up, the posters that aren't OPs were accused of not growing because they posted the same things over and over again. Can the same be said of the posters here that continue to post the same "support" for affairs over and over again - that they aren't growing?

 

I personally think no OP would come here if there weren't already doubts to begin with.

 

You must have missed where I stated this thread is not about judgment but about "the intention and effort to present the worst possible scenario as true of someone's personal situation".

 

Yes, the OP likely has doubts already when posting on LS, but why make up additional scenarios which have no bearing on the particular OP's situation? The doubts the OP brings with them to LS are by themselves difficult enough to deal with, why add hurt to injury?

[jennie-jennie]

The really helpful thing about a forum like this is that we can all try to benefit from the hindsight of others who have had similar experiences. If that hindsight makes one question their own circumstances...thats a good thing. Thats why we are all here right ? To question, explore, & learn.

 

I agree. So why not talk about these experiences instead of imposing the same thing as truth of the OP's situation? "This happened to me" vs "This is what is happening to you."