Doubts we never had before

[Spark1111]

Most likely the OW/OM who comes here is vulnerable and hurting, and when all the LS posters scream "This is worse than you thought" it is easy to question yourself and your perception of the situation.

 

I am a strong woman, but twice (once here and once on an OW forum) I have lost my emotional balance due to the unanimousness of the other posters on the forum. It took a while for me to put myself together again.

 

Jennie, how is YOUR experience different from a BS's who has posters screaming at her that he is still contact with his OW; the affair isn't over; don't believe a word he says, he only has true love for her.....and blah, blah, blah....

 

It is not.

 

Or the fWS who admits he used his AP and is attacked for ....using her/or him?

 

Or the WS who feels confused and recieves every gamut of opinions from all sides of the triangle?

 

I will never understand the mind set that one person's pain if MORE JUSTIFIED than another's; that ONE SIDE deserves gentler treatment than another.

 

We all get kid gloves AND brickbats.

[jennie-jennie]

It is no different for fBS, or fWS.

 

There are many who will paint a worst-case scenario for those trying to reconcile, or those truly remorseful for their affair, or those who used their AP as opposed to thos who love their AP.

 

Worst case scenarios and harsh judgements can abound on any thread. Motivations are open to interpretation, as is judgements.

 

Everyone is presenting from their very personal and respective perceptions and viewpoints.

 

I'm okay with it.

 

Why aren't you?

 

Very valid point, Spark. This happens to BSs and WSs also, this planting of seeds of doubt. It is as bad whoever it happens to.

[Spark1111]

I agree. So why not talk about these experiences instead of imposing the same thing as truth of the OP's situation? "This happened to me" vs "This is what is happening to you."

 

Because in the course of giving advice and support, we can only post from our own experiences, judgements, perceptions; our own truths.

 

If I want advice, I have to take the good with the bad with the harsh with the kind.

 

If I only wanted lip service, I'd have tea with some old friends who would agree with any scenario and emotions I may express.

[jennie-jennie]

CHA CHING!!! Same here for me....I read every story and look at every situation uniquely... my support here is usually from my own experiences and I talk in the first person. I try to open the EYES of the AP so they don't get played or recognize they are in really deep. BTDT

 

Very important! Much more relevant way to go about it. Telling of one's own experiences instead of imposing it as being the truth about someone else's.

[OWoman]

I personally think no OP would come here if there weren't already doubts to begin with.

 

This issue I also addressed in my eaten post yesterday.

 

People post for different reasons. Personally, I didn't come to LS with "doubts", and I'd be interested if anyone could find a post of mine where I express any doubts about my R. Perhaps NID or someone else can spot doubts where none were stated, or even conscious - but I certainly don't recall ever doubting that my H loved me, that he wanted to be with me or that we would land up together.

 

It's true that some people do have doubts, and post openly about those, soliciting and embracing advice. But equally, others post because they have questions - about specific issues, tactics, situations or people, rather than about the R itself. I recall being in that position myself - seeking views from people who'd been in a similar position, about whether or not my then-MM might give his then-BW false hope should he go along on a "family holiday" abroad that the kids requested he go along with them on. I wasn't having doubts about the R; I wasn't having doubts about whether or not he was "preparing me for his decision to go along anyway, because he loved her and not me" as some people suggested. I simply wondered whether my concerns - that his going, to keep the kids happy, would give his then-BW false hope - were shared, or whether I was being silly about that and it would be clear to even the densest BW in that situation that he was only there for the kids....

 

People also post simply to vent - because they're having a bad day - note, DAY, not R - or to celebrate, when something good happens that they'd like to share (typically those posts are derided as "gloating" by the gloom brigade though, so they've become fewer in recent times).

 

Sometimes, though, OWs post here just to have someone to discuss their Rs with. It seems that in certain places - and at least some of America seems to be more so than other places from what I gather here - that As are deemed bad and OWs looked down on, so perhaps those OWs don't feel OK discussing their Rs with their friends, family or usual confidantes, and so the anonymity of an online forum provides that space for them. That doesn't necessarily equal doubt - though it almost certainly does equal fear of judgment.

[Spark1111]

 

Very valid point, Spark. This happens to BSs and WSs also, this planting of seeds of doubt. It is as bad whoever it happens to.

 

No jennie......IT IS REALISTIC, and I have to admit that, as painful as it may be.

 

And no one can impose anything on me that I do not take ownership of the imposition.

 

But if their advice or comments DO affect me, then it is my job to examine WHY a discordant nerve has been struck.

[jennie-jennie]

I try to stay away from the OW board nowadays, it's part of my past, and too much of a downer. Your thread was listed on the index (I guess that's what it's called). So I guess I had to read it out of lurid curiosity.

 

I'm confused, Jennie. This has to be the fifth thread you have started since I have been a member here on what you think other's should do to support an OW/OM. The responses are always the same. The current OW who think they are entitled to have an affair always agree with you, while everyone else always say the it's an open forum, you can't dictate what everyone says, everyone has an opinion and is entitles to them- yada yada.

 

If all support consisted of this:

how would there be any discussion here? I know you didn't forget the support and "discussion" part. What confuses me is that you in the past have said that you preferred LS to other OW forums because of the dissenting opinions. Further, you posted to me in another thread that every time someone disagreed with you, it only strengthened your resolve. (I don't have the time to look the quote up, but it's on the "MM lies to W but not OW thread.)

 

So what's the problem?

 

I mentioned not hanging out on the OW board, because I'm going to assume that the OW and Infidelity boards are the ones you mainly frequent. Take a look at some of the other boards here. Some people are going to have a consistently negative opinion, some positive. The dilemma you describe is not specific to the OW and Infidelity boards. It's human nature for people to draw upon their experiences and respond accordingly.

 

My two cents.

Ok, bye.

 

Again, it is not the dissenting opinions, it is the planting of seeds of doubt I am reacting to.

[jennie-jennie]

IMO, he's bringing it up because it seems that that is all that some posters want to hear.

 

Its obvious that you don't like the negative or neutral opinions offered, so it must be that the posters only want to hear good things - like they'll be the next Mrs. MM if that's what they are hoping for - in response to their posts.

 

Once again, it is not the dissenting opinions, it is the planting of seeds of doubt I am reacting to.

[jthorne]

Again, it is not the dissenting opinions, it is the planting of seeds of doubt I am reacting to.

My points remains the same. Everyone has an opinion, and will express them at will. Seeds of doubt as you describe it, is not specific to the infidelity-related forums.

[Spark1111]

Again, it is not the dissenting opinions, it is the planting of seeds of doubt I am reacting to.

 

But we all get these seeds of doubt planted in any thread in any forum we may post to, is my point.

 

That IS the nature of public debate and opinion.

[Silly_Girl]

Again, it is not the dissenting opinions, it is the planting of seeds of doubt I am reacting to.

 

Jennie, nearly every time I post for help or advice someone will tell me I shouldn't believe MM and I simply say that I am satisfied he is not lying to me. You do the same. That could be seen as 'planting seeds of doubt'. But I appreciate the well-thought out and sincere responses I get. They're trying to help me. It's up to me to process that other stuff, or not.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, how is YOUR experience different from a BS's who has posters screaming at her that he is still contact with his OW; the affair isn't over; don't believe a word he says, he only has true love for her.....and blah, blah, blah....

 

It is not.

 

Or the fWS who admits he used his AP and is attacked for ....using her/or him?

 

Or the WS who feels confused and recieves every gamut of opinions from all sides of the triangle?

 

I will never understand the mind set that one person's pain if MORE JUSTIFIED than another's; that ONE SIDE deserves gentler treatment than another.

 

We all get kid gloves AND brickbats.

 

Whoa, I never said anything about one person's pain being more justified or one side deserving gentler treatment. What I said in the OP applies to all sides of the triangle. As I stated earlier, thanks for pointing that out.

[jennie-jennie]

Because in the course of giving advice and support, we can only post from our own experiences, judgements, perceptions; our own truths.

 

If I want advice, I have to take the good with the bad with the harsh with the kind.

 

If I only wanted lip service, I'd have tea with some old friends who would agree with any scenario and emotions I may express.

 

I detest lip service. But that does not mean that I like poisonous seeds of doubt being planted in my mind. Not when it is stated as being the truth of my relationship. Be welcome to share of your own experience and leave it up to me to judge whether it applies to my situation or not.

[OWoman]

I wouldn't really call dissenting opinions judgment. I, for one, am not emotionally tied to this board or the people on it. I call it like I see it without judgment, criticism, etc. I suppose there are some that react from emotions, but I don't think that's the majority of the cases.

 

Cookie cutter answers fit cookie cutter cases. Show me a different story and I'll show you a different answer.

 

I think this is the problem - even "different stories" still get the same cookie cutter answers.

 

Posters here tell me all the time that my situation "wasn't the norm" and that my story "is very different from others". Yet, if you look back on my earliest threads (those that survived - many got deleted because some nasty posters resorted to calling OWs whores and the rest of their vocabulary of insults) you'll see that all of those were greeted with EXACTLY the same kind of "advice" that still routinely gets wheeled out to OWs, irrespective of their situations or their degree of contentment with that - "he doesn't really love you; you're just his side-dish / sex-toy / dirty little secret"; "he's with her because that's where he chooses to be, he loves her and he'll never leave her"; "you only think they're not having sex, and sleeping in different rooms. Of course they're having hot sex every night!" etc etc. And the fact that time proved me right and them wrong gave them no pause for thought - they simply wheeled out their cookie cutter responses on their next victim.

 

If people bothered - and many do. This is by no means everybody I'm referring to here - to READ the OP in each case, and respond to the question the OP actually asked, rather than make sweeping claims about the nature of the OP's R and its chances of survival, there'd be less need for threads like this. (Or does everyone think that threads like Noelle's were on topic, focused, helpful and non-judgmental? )

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, nearly every time I post for help or advice someone will tell me I shouldn't believe MM and I simply say that I am satisfied he is not lying to me. You do the same. That could be seen as 'planting seeds of doubt'. But I appreciate the well-thought out and sincere responses I get. They're trying to help me. It's up to me to process that other stuff, or not.

 

Yes, I can handle it, and so can you apparently, but I see others hurting, OPs who come in pain and now are hurting even more because they don't know any longer what to believe.

 

I can leave an extramarital relationship being sure I was loved but that it was not meant to be, or I can leave an extramarital relationship convinced that I was fooled and never loved and lied to consistently. Some posters don't need much to be pushed from one perception to another. Imagine what the last scenario does to their self esteem compared to the first.

[Spark1111]

Yes, I can handle it, and so can you apparently, but I see others hurting, OPs who come in pain and now are hurting even more because they don't know any longer what to believe.

 

I can leave an extramarital relationship being sure I was loved but that it was not meant to be, or I can leave an extramarital relationship convinced that I was fooled and never loved and lied to consistently. Some posters don't need much to be pushed from one perception to another. Imagine what the last scenario does to their self esteem compared to the first.

 

 

Then they, and only they, can decide for themselves what to believe, what to ponder upon and what to discard as untrue to their situation.

 

We all have to do that.

 

Otherwise we can foot the hefty bill for IC.

[Snowflower]

There seems to be a new trend on LS. Posters are posting worst possible scenarios, one after another, of what might be going on in the extramarital relationship. The OW/OM who post here are obviously in pain and do not need additional pain added to what they are already experiencing.

 

I understand that LS posters are trying to, as they see it, shed light on the affair. But just as a marriage should die of its own accord, so should an affair. Adding doubts and questioning which have no real basis in what is happening is just confusing the issue.

 

It is like Ms. Red says:

 

 

That's support. Trusting and supporting the OP in finding her own answer, instead of making her doubt her senses.

 

Okay, as the moderator has suggested, I'm responding to the OP first Haven't read the entire thread yet.

 

JJ, I'm glad you brought this topic up. I've noticed this trend as well on LS. It makes me really sad because when I first started posting here about 1.5 years ago, I got a lot of support.

 

Yes, I'm a fBS, but I can see exactly what you're referring to. Both on this board and on infidelity. It seems more and more posters are just taking "poetic license" with anyone's story and adding all sorts of assumptions and their own biases.

 

If you (general you) try to point out a different view, you are almost attacked. This seems to be across the "board" (pun intended) and it is sad. I don't understand why so many people who don't have a vested interest in someone else's story insist that their own assumptions are the only right ones.

 

It's a very sad thing around here. Other viewpoints are great, but why is there this insistence by some that their view is the ONLY way? I don't get it. Then, if the original poster (and they can be an AP or a BS) doesn't take the advice, they are often called stupid or a troll.

 

Now, I'll read the rest of the thread. Should be interesting!

[jennie-jennie]

"he doesn't really love you; you're just his side-dish / sex-toy / dirty little secret"; "he's with her because that's where he chooses to be, he loves her and he'll never leave her"; "you only think they're not having sex, and sleeping in different rooms. Of course they're having hot sex every night!" etc etc.

 

I'd so much prefer if posters said:

 

* my MM didn't really love me (my husband didn't really love his OW)

 

* I (she) was just his side-dish/sex-toy/dirty little secret

 

* my MM was with his wife because that's where he chose to be, he loves her and will never leave her (my husband was with me...)

 

* I only thought they were not having sex, and sleeping in different rooms. Of course they were having hot sex every night! (We were having sex, hot sex, every night!)

 

etc. etc.

[jennie-jennie]

Okay, as the moderator has suggested, I'm responding to the OP first Haven't read the entire thread yet.

 

JJ, I'm glad you brought this topic up. I've noticed this trend as well on LS. It makes me really sad because when I first started posting here about 1.5 years ago, I got a lot of support.

 

Yes, I'm a fBS, but I can see exactly what you're referring to. Both on this board and on infidelity. It seems more and more posters are just taking "poetic license" with anyone's story and adding all sorts of assumptions and their own biases.

 

If you (general you) try to point out a different view, you are almost attacked. This seems to be across the "board" (pun intended) and it is sad. I don't understand why so many people who don't have a vested interest in someone else's story insist that their own assumptions are the only right ones.

 

It's a very sad thing around here. Other viewpoints are great, but why is there this insistence by some that their view is the ONLY way? I don't get it. Then, if the original poster (and they can be an AP or a BS) doesn't take the advice, they are often called stupid or a troll.

 

Now, I'll read the rest of the thread. Should be interesting!

 

Thanks, snowflower, you have noticed the same things as I have. Thanks for stating it so well. It is heart warming to me that you being a BS have seen this trend as well and are reacting to it. It gives me hope.

Edited August 19, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Snowflower]

Thanks, snowflower, you have noticed the same things as I have. Thanks for stating it so well. It is heart warming to me that you being a BS have seen this trend as well and are reacting to it. It gives me hope.

 

Okay, read the thread now!

 

Again, I thank you for opening this thread and your attempts to keep it on topic. I can see that it is not about "judgment" or even harsh, "tough love" advice. It's the assumptions that I can't stand.

 

It's almost like the OP (and they can be a BS or an AP) isn't given any credit for being first person in their own situation. They know themselves best and it isn't helpful when some poster says that the OP's situation MUST be a certain way (usually the opposite of what the OP believes) because well, dang it, that is what happened to the responding poster. (hope that makes sense)

 

FTR, I'm not talking about the tough love posts--I'm talking about the posts where poetic license has been taken by responding posters. It's sad. Happens all the time on infidelity and on OM/OW.

 

Sigh, if it keeps up I may have to retire from LS.

[jennie-jennie]

Some threads turn into more discussing the imagined scenario than the scenario the OP has presented. How is that helping the OP, whose voice only gets heard faintly among all the others?

 

The OP is the one holding the most facts about her/his situation. How about listening to them and how they perceive their situation and respond to them from there?

[nadiaj2727]

Most likely the OW/OM who comes here is vulnerable and hurting, and when all the LS posters scream "This is worse than you thought" it is easy to question yourself and your perception of the situation.

 

I am a strong woman, but twice (once here and once on an OW forum) I have lost my emotional balance due to the unanimousness of the other posters on the forum. It took a while for me to put myself together again.

 

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. Twice before you have lost your emotional balance because everyone else was in agreement about what? That you shouldn't be with your MM? Or something else? What is it that you wanted the posters to say or not say so that you wouldn't have lost your emotional balance?

 

Sorry for my confusion.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. Twice before you have lost your emotional balance because everyone else was in agreement about what? That you shouldn't be with your MM? Or something else? What is it that you wanted the posters to say or not say so that you wouldn't have lost your emotional balance?

 

Sorry for my confusion.

 

Jennie,

 

I'm curious as to what you mean by "lost my emotional balance" period. Is it that you became upset because of what was being posted? That happens to everyone sometimes. Or did you actually become emotionally unhinged because of it? Its not clear what you are actually saying. I know that English is not your first language and I am not sure what you are intending in saying "lost my emotional balance".

[Snowflower]

 

No jennie......IT IS REALISTIC, and I have to admit that, as painful as it may be.

 

And no one can impose anything on me that I do not take ownership of the imposition.

 

But if their advice or comments DO affect me, then it is my job to examine WHY a discordant nerve has been struck.

 

Good point, Spark!

 

But what about those posters (and they are here and on infidelity) who come up with all these wild scenarios, pure conjecture, based on some small detail in the OP, or by coming up with inaccurate assumptions...

 

Here is a fictional example...I'll use a question posed by a BS, loosely related to something that happened to me:

 

"My husband had an affair about 6 months ago. He ended it and we are working on our marriage. Things have been going really well and he is remorseful and answering all my questions. Last week he had to go out of town on a business trip and at one point, I couldn't reach him on his phone. I was pretty upset by this but he did eventually call me and apologize for not taking my call. he explained that his boss suddenly called him into a meeting and that was why he couldn't call me..."

 

Tough-Love Response:

 

"Did you explain why you were pretty upset by you husband being out of touch? Was the other woman possibly at this out of town meeting? Sure, your H might be telling the truth that his boss suddenly called him into a meeting, but you need to be cautious. After all, he lied to you in the past. Discuss with your H what he can do to avoid this type of situation in the future. Give him the benefit of the doubt but I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him!"

 

Poetic License Response:

 

"Your husband most likely wasn't even at a business meeting. He was probably with his OW and they were having sex when you were trying to call him. You need to divorce him right now. He is obviously still seeing the OW. How can you be so naive? Your husband is obviously snowing you. He says he was called into a sudden meeting with his boss, yeah, right. You actually believe this? He is still banging her and you are stupid for even considering believing him."

 

See the difference? These types of poetic scenarios happen on both these boards. It's not useful, IMO.

[Confused4Now]

 

Good point, Spark!

 

But what about those posters (and they are here and on infidelity) who come up with all these wild scenarios, pure conjecture, based on some small detail in the OP, or by coming up with inaccurate assumptions...

 

Here is a fictional example...I'll use a question posed by a BS, loosely related to something that happened to me:

 

"My husband had an affair about 6 months ago. He ended it and we are working on our marriage. Things have been going really well and he is remorseful and answering all my questions. Last week he had to go out of town on a business trip and at one point, I couldn't reach him on his phone. I was pretty upset by this but he did eventually call me and apologize for not taking my call. he explained that his boss suddenly called him into a meeting and that was why he couldn't call me..."

 

Tough-Love Response:

 

"Did you explain why you were pretty upset by you husband being out of touch? Was the other woman possibly at this out of town meeting? Sure, your H might be telling the truth that his boss suddenly called him into a meeting, but you need to be cautious. After all, he lied to you in the past. Discuss with your H what he can do to avoid this type of situation in the future. Give him the benefit of the doubt but I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him!"

 

Poetic License Response:

 

"Your husband most likely wasn't even at a business meeting. He was probably with his OW and they were having sex when you were trying to call him. You need to divorce him right now. He is obviously still seeing the OW. How can you be so naive? Your husband is obviously snowing you. He says he was called into a sudden meeting with his boss, yeah, right. You actually believe this? He is still banging her and you are stupid for even considering believing him."

 

See the difference? These types of poetic scenarios happen on both these boards. It's not useful, IMO.

I think maybe it all goes back to "Men are from Mars Women are from Venus" Many people come here for just support and they don't want to get answers...they just want to be heard. In the long run they will do whatever their going to do regardless of all the advice. Since most of the board are women I think most are looking for support. Guys on the other hand are more "what do I do?" rather than needing the support. That's just my opinion.