Doubts we never had before

[Spark1111]

 

Good point, Spark!

 

But what about those posters (and they are here and on infidelity) who come up with all these wild scenarios, pure conjecture, based on some small detail in the OP, or by coming up with inaccurate assumptions...

 

Here is a fictional example...I'll use a question posed by a BS, loosely related to something that happened to me:

 

"My husband had an affair about 6 months ago. He ended it and we are working on our marriage. Things have been going really well and he is remorseful and answering all my questions. Last week he had to go out of town on a business trip and at one point, I couldn't reach him on his phone. I was pretty upset by this but he did eventually call me and apologize for not taking my call. he explained that his boss suddenly called him into a meeting and that was why he couldn't call me..."

 

Tough-Love Response:

 

"Did you explain why you were pretty upset by you husband being out of touch? Was the other woman possibly at this out of town meeting? Sure, your H might be telling the truth that his boss suddenly called him into a meeting, but you need to be cautious. After all, he lied to you in the past. Discuss with your H what he can do to avoid this type of situation in the future. Give him the benefit of the doubt but I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him!"

 

Poetic License Response:

 

"Your husband most likely wasn't even at a business meeting. He was probably with his OW and they were having sex when you were trying to call him. You need to divorce him right now. He is obviously still seeing the OW. How can you be so naive? Your husband is obviously snowing you. He says he was called into a sudden meeting with his boss, yeah, right. You actually believe this? He is still banging her and you are stupid for even considering believing him."

 

See the difference? These types of poetic scenarios happen on both these boards. It's not useful, IMO.

 

Okay, I certainly do understand the difference and you do make a valid point.

 

But again, I can agree to disagree with anyone's point of view, as they can mine.

 

Is it helpful or hurtful? Well only the OP can determine that.

 

Just as there are some who would NEVER have an affair, there are just as many who would NEVER reconcile with a cheating spouse.

 

I can respect that. It is just who they are and the way they feel, or think they feel given the circumstances.

 

As to post number two, rather than be hurt by those assumptions of details, I always have a choice to think....could be true, or probably could not be true.

 

I surely do not have to defend or adopt or even respond to a post that is not helping me.

[NoIDidn't]

As to post number two, rather than be hurt by those assumptions of details, I always have a choice to think....could be true, or probably could not be true.

 

Yes, the eating-the-meat-spit-out-the-bones approach.

 

I guess some posters are just so sensitive that they can't ignore the things that they know not to be true. They have to argue about the non-essentials of a post. There was a MW poster that hasn't been around for a while (I know her name, just don't want to put her on blast) that was very good at ignoring posters that took poetic license with her posts. I really enjoyed reading her threads as she kept them on topic herself quite well.

[Spark1111]

PS: As a former journalist I too have a bias:cool: and here it is:

 

I may HATE what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it in a free society.

 

I can accept, reject, turn the dial, click the remote, cancel my subscription, boycott, but will defend to the death your right to have a dissenting opinion from mine.

 

I have too often seen petty displays of power and control in governments, neighborhoods, hell the PTA:p, and relationships to ever try to silence or censor those who do not agree with my opinion, or me with theirs.

 

 

....cue "The Star-Spangled Banner" right about now....

[jennie-jennie]

Good point, Spark!

 

But what about those posters (and they are here and on infidelity) who come up with all these wild scenarios, pure conjecture, based on some small detail in the OP, or by coming up with inaccurate assumptions...

 

Here is a fictional example...I'll use a question posed by a BS, loosely related to something that happened to me:

 

"My husband had an affair about 6 months ago. He ended it and we are working on our marriage. Things have been going really well and he is remorseful and answering all my questions. Last week he had to go out of town on a business trip and at one point, I couldn't reach him on his phone. I was pretty upset by this but he did eventually call me and apologize for not taking my call. he explained that his boss suddenly called him into a meeting and that was why he couldn't call me..."

 

Tough-Love Response:

 

"Did you explain why you were pretty upset by you husband being out of touch? Was the other woman possibly at this out of town meeting? Sure, your H might be telling the truth that his boss suddenly called him into a meeting, but you need to be cautious. After all, he lied to you in the past. Discuss with your H what he can do to avoid this type of situation in the future. Give him the benefit of the doubt but I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him!"

 

Poetic License Response:

 

"Your husband most likely wasn't even at a business meeting. He was probably with his OW and they were having sex when you were trying to call him. You need to divorce him right now. He is obviously still seeing the OW. How can you be so naive? Your husband is obviously snowing you. He says he was called into a sudden meeting with his boss, yeah, right. You actually believe this? He is still banging her and you are stupid for even considering believing him."

 

See the difference? These types of poetic scenarios happen on both these boards. It's not useful, IMO.

 

Thanks for colorfully illustrating the difference! :bunny:

[Snowflower]

I think maybe it all goes back to "Men are from Mars Women are from Venus" Many people come here for just support and they don't want to get answers...they just want to be heard. In the long run they will do whatever their going to do regardless of all the advice. Since most of the board are women I think most are looking for support. Guys on the other hand are more "what do I do?" rather than needing the support. That's just my opinion.

 

C4N, this is an interesting viewpoint and one I hadn't considered. Something to think about. Thanks.

[Snowflower]

 

Okay, I certainly do understand the difference and you do make a valid point.

 

But again, I can agree to disagree with anyone's point of view, as they can mine.

 

Is it helpful or hurtful? Well only the OP can determine that.

 

Just as there are some who would NEVER have an affair, there are just as many who would NEVER reconcile with a cheating spouse.

 

I can respect that. It is just who they are and the way they feel, or think they feel given the circumstances.

 

As to post number two, rather than be hurt by those assumptions of details, I always have a choice to think....could be true, or probably could not be true.

 

I surely do not have to defend or adopt or even respond to a post that is not helping me.

 

Yeah, you're right...we don't always know how any of the responses are helping or hurting the OP. But sometimes the thread will go off-track so quickly with assumptions that the OP's voice gets lost. It happens.

 

Worse, sometimes the OP will try to defend themselves (or their MP, or their WS) and the assumptions go wild.

 

I dunno, I guess I can understand the point Jennie is trying to make here. It's not the harshness or even the judgment directed at the OP that is the problem most of the time...it's the poetic license used to distort the OP's situation (since no one here really knows) and the anger from some posters when their advice is not heeded by the OP.

[jennie-jennie]

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. Twice before you have lost your emotional balance because everyone else was in agreement about what? That you shouldn't be with your MM? Or something else? What is it that you wanted the posters to say or not say so that you wouldn't have lost your emotional balance?

 

Sorry for my confusion.

 

Jennie,

 

I'm curious as to what you mean by "lost my emotional balance" period. Is it that you became upset because of what was being posted? That happens to everyone sometimes. Or did you actually become emotionally unhinged because of it? Its not clear what you are actually saying. I know that English is not your first language and I am not sure what you are intending in saying "lost my emotional balance".

 

I was already in a vulnerable state, and the unanimous opinion which took no regard to my perception of my situation was the straw that broke the camel's back. My MM had to help me get on my feet again, I was so emotionally upset in an unhealthy way.

 

It is ironic when the MM has to help the OW regain her emotional health after posting on a "support" forum.

[2sure]

I dont think I am someone who either BS or OW would accuse of cookie cutter responses...only because I think I generally try to be more polite than that. I dont like redundancy.

 

But I have to say that from my time beginning here...to now...I have noticed in my own real life, and via the on going experience of posters here....the cookie cutter responses? lol. A lot of em were right. And dont get me wrong...when I initially got them myself my thoughts were:

 

Who are YOU to give me, a unique individual, blanket advice and sound so freaking righteous about it to boot????!!

 

I am however, continually flabbergasted at how cookie cutter our lives really are in the aspect of marriage/infidelity/affairs. I know its insulting. I live it. As unique as each of us, and each relationship is...when an affair is involved...its like the same story over and over again with just slight variations on the endings.

 

And, I am not demeaning anyone...just telling you, I'm amazed. I never would have believed those righteous blow hards were right. For some things in life, blanket advice is all you need - adding details just clouds it up.

[jennie-jennie]

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. Twice before you have lost your emotional balance because everyone else was in agreement about what? That you shouldn't be with your MM? Or something else? What is it that you wanted the posters to say or not say so that you wouldn't have lost your emotional balance?

 

Sorry for my confusion.

 

What I wanted the posters to say? That there is more than one way to look at a situation. "This is how we perceive it, but we are not God, so we might be wrong."

 

Realize that one of these times was on an OW board, so noone was telling me to leave my MM, just how to perceive my situation.

[Spark1111]

I dont think I am someone who either BS or OW would accuse of cookie cutter responses...only because I think I generally try to be more polite than that. I dont like redundancy.

 

But I have to say that from my time beginning here...to now...I have noticed in my own real life, and via the on going experience of posters here....the cookie cutter responses? lol. A lot of em were right. And dont get me wrong...when I initially got them myself my thoughts were:

 

Who are YOU to give me, a unique individual, blanket advice and sound so freaking righteous about it to boot????!!

 

I am however, continually flabbergasted at how cookie cutter our lives really are in the aspect of marriage/infidelity/affairs. I know its insulting. I live it. As unique as each of us, and each relationship is...when an affair is involved...its like the same story over and over again with just slight variations on the endings.

 

And, I am not demeaning anyone...just telling you, I'm amazed. I never would have believed those righteous blow hards were right. For some things in life, blanket advice is all you need - adding details just clouds it up.

 

Thanks 2 sure... You were one of the posters when I first came here whose responses regarding being an fOW both helped and hurt me at the same time.

 

But I learned from your experiences, and as painful as much of it was in the early days, you ultimately helped me understand a certain perspective I had been lacking in my thought processes.

 

ANd you were certainly never a blow hard, but many of those blow hards helped me to heal also.

 

As much as I did not like what they were saying when the pain was fresh and raw.

 

So I think it depends where you are in the process, not how the process treats you, which will determine what will have value and what will not, for now, and in the future.

[jennie-jennie]

I dont think I am someone who either BS or OW would accuse of cookie cutter responses...only because I think I generally try to be more polite than that. I dont like redundancy.

 

But I have to say that from my time beginning here...to now...I have noticed in my own real life, and via the on going experience of posters here....the cookie cutter responses? lol. A lot of em were right. And dont get me wrong...when I initially got them myself my thoughts were:

 

Who are YOU to give me, a unique individual, blanket advice and sound so freaking righteous about it to boot????!!

 

I am however, continually flabbergasted at how cookie cutter our lives really are in the aspect of marriage/infidelity/affairs. I know its insulting. I live it. As unique as each of us, and each relationship is...when an affair is involved...its like the same story over and over again with just slight variations on the endings.

 

And, I am not demeaning anyone...just telling you, I'm amazed. I never would have believed those righteous blow hards were right. For some things in life, blanket advice is all you need - adding details just clouds it up.

 

So why are details then added to the cookie cutter advice? Is not the cookie cutter advice strong enough in itself to not need details added by poetic licence? It is as if many of the posters who give this kind of advice don't believe in the strength of it if it is delivered in a kinder fashion.

[NoIDidn't]

So why are details then added to the cookie cutter advice? Is not the cookie cutter advice strong enough in itself to not need details added by poetic licence? It is as if many of the posters who give this kind of advice don't believe in the strength of it if it is delivered in a kinder fashion.

 

I am really confused as to what the complaint really is. Is it the cookie-cutter posts or the poetic license with the details? Or it is the kindness with which both or any types of advice are offered?

[awkward]

There are many different ways to offer support and tons of things to discuss about relationships. We (everyone but Tony) are only able to control ourselves and how we respond to people.

 

I think the discussion depends on the topic.

 

Example:

An OW posts that her and MM are in love and he is leaving. She wants to know what are the chances that her MM will leave and what are the chances that their relationship will work out. If that is all she posts then what will be discussed is probably statistics and tales of caution due to these low statistics.

 

If she posts more to her story like her MM is currently on vacay with his wife and kids, they just bought a new house, or anything else that demonstrates "action" of a MM who may not be leaving his marriage those red flags will be discussed. It is up to the OP to decide whether she needs to be concerned about these "actions" or not.

 

If the OW doesn't post about red flags but explains that her MM moved out, has filed for divorce, or anything else that demonstrates "action" of a MM who may be leaving his marriage then the discussion will be quite different. There will still be discussion about being cautious because some MM do go back but it will be quite different than the one that is full of red flags.

 

When I am responding to an OP it is about her situation and the details that she provides is what determines what I post about. If something I say causes doubt to be planted then the OP should examine that part more carefully and decide to embrace it or let it go.

 

To expect people to respond with *I* and *In my situation* responses on an open forum is kind of unrealistic because not everyone can relate to every situation. It would do more to exclude than include. There are other forums that are not open and more rigid about what can be discussed and where. Even in those forums it is quite difficult to control others tone and message altogether.

[jennie-jennie]

I am really confused as to what the complaint really is. Is it the cookie-cutter posts or the poetic license with the details? Or it is the kindness with which both or any types of advice are offered?

 

This thread is about the poetic license with the details. The post of mine you quoted questioned why those who post cookie cutter advice often feel they need to add such details.

[nadiaj2727]

I was already in a vulnerable state, and the unanimous opinion which took no regard to my perception of my situation was the straw that broke the camel's back. My MM had to help me get on my feet again, I was so emotionally upset in an unhealthy way.

 

It is ironic when the MM has to help the OW regain her emotional health after posting on a "support" forum.

 

Thanks for the explanation, Jennie. I guess I would ask you why you post on online forums? If something that traumatic happened to me, I know I would stay away from forums! What is it that you seek to gain? It sounds to me like you're not getting whatever it is you seek out of LS so you are trying to change how the posters post. I wish you the best but I feel like that's going to be a losing battle! People are going to say what they want to say no matter what.

 

And as far as MM having to help you gain your emotional health... this is just my experience so let me share it. I know it may not apply to your particular situation. I used to rely on xMM for everything and for his emotional help. Eventually I realized he was married and his real interests lied in staying married or being confused. I didn't know you when I was an OW so, as a brief explanation, my xMM said he wanted to be with me, moved out of his house, and then waffled. So I was looking to him for support (I broke up with my fiance to be with him) and he was looking to me for support/understanding/maybe a crutch, and neither of us was healthy. I eventually realized that I had to look out for myself. Part of the reason I was emotionally upset was because I was not in the kind of relationship I wanted to be in. It was really hard but I had to just focus on myself and look within for strength to overcome emotional hardship. Eventually I did not need him, I was fine on my own, and that's really what I want for OWs and that's where I'm coming from in my posts.

 

I really don't think any woman needs a man that is married to another woman so badly. I think she can and should be happy on her own. Is this opinion/ advice biased? Yes! Is it based on my own experiences (mistakes and strengths and weaknesses, etc.) Yes! But that is the only way I know how to give advice to other people in that situation.

 

As far as adding details or whatever to the story. Well in my own situation xMM lied about things and tried to pull the wool over my eyes (and he succeeded for quite some time). When I was deep in love with him and thinking with my heart, I didn't think logically and I was just blindly trusting him. I couldn't talk with many people in real life and those I did tell were trying to "support" me and not to tell me anything negative out of fear that I would be upset with them and kick them out of my life (their fears were justified because at the time I was so one-sighted that I may have done that... chosen xMM over them). So I needed the people on LS to point out objectively how his lies and stories weren't adding up, and to give their opinion on what they think might be the real story. That helped me tremendously so, yeah, if there's a hole in some MM's story, I am going to point out what I see to the OW. If she believes her MM over me, well, more power to her. If she starts to doubt her MM, well then maybe there is reason to doubt him and she is going to have to keep her eyes open and decide whether she can really trust him or not. (And I am of the majority view that someone actively cheating and lying to/hiding things from his wife should not be trusted... I know some people disagree).

 

That is just my take on things and I wish you well in your journey.

 

(hugs)

[pureinheart]

There seems to be a new trend on LS. Posters are posting worst possible scenarios, one after another, of what might be going on in the extramarital relationship. The OW/OM who post here are obviously in pain and do not need additional pain added to what they are already experiencing.

 

I understand that LS posters are trying to, as they see it, shed light on the affair. But just as a marriage should die of its own accord, so should an affair. Adding doubts and questioning which have no real basis in what is happening is just confusing the issue.

 

It is like Ms. Red says:

 

 

That's support. Trusting and supporting the OP in finding her own answer, instead of making her doubt her senses.

 

I have only read your OP and two other replies...and this is my first thought...it's the same thing as if a MP comes home late three times in a row. Other MP talks to friends/internet and the responses state he's seeing someone else...and it gets completely blown out of proportion and the MP could have just been working O/T or had errands...I've done it before, played the scenes in my mind till I had the person dead, lying in the street because I imagined they might have had a car accident...imaginations.

 

In bold, unless there is valid reason, no imaginations should come into play.

 

It is about the drama, people are addicted to it.

 

Excellent my friend, as usual.

[donnamaybe]

SIT, your responses are balanced.

 

Just wanted to say one doesn't need to be emotionally tied to the board or other posters to give "unbalanced" advice. People are often "emotionally tied" to the events from their past and respond from that place.

In the case where an A has dragged on for over 5 years, I don't think someone viewing it in a negative light has ANYTHING to do with THEIR past. It has EVERYTHING to do with the 5 long years of same ol' same ol' and the M still firmly in place.

[BB07]

There seems to be a new trend on LS. Posters are posting worst possible scenarios, one after another, of what might be going on in the extramarital relationship. The OW/OM who post here are obviously in pain and do not need additional pain added to what they are already experiencing.

 

I understand that LS posters are trying to, as they see it, shed light on the affair. But just as a marriage should die of its own accord, so should an affair. Adding doubts and questioning which have no real basis in what is happening is just confusing the issue.

 

It is like Ms. Red says:

 

 

That's support. Trusting and supporting the OP in finding her own answer, instead of making her doubt her senses.

 

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to this discussion.

 

I like this forum, I appreciate the people who take the time to respond, well except for those hit and run types.

Obviously anyone who is in an affair has doubts and they wouldn't be here and sharing their story if they were OK with the situation. If they are happy and things were going well, they would be out living and enjoying their life and their choices.

A poster has to take what is given and weigh it out, and apply it to their own circumstances and their own reality. We can't censor the advice given, nor can we pick and choose who is best qualified to respond. If we want that kind of advice, we gotta pay for it.

[pureinheart]

 

Why are we adding details to the OP's personal situation, instead of responding to the situation as presented by the OP?

 

It resembles gaslighting to me:

"Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented to the victim with the intent of making them doubt their own memory and perception."

(Wikipedia)

 

This is very true....there is much gaslighting...

 

Also, I want to add bullying. The drama gets so intense that I have put my two cents in and have been threatened/reported all sorts of stuff.

 

Spark you stated this in this thread, not pulling you out, I have just heard this many times and want to comment...

 

Yes this is an internet forum, and to hide behind that is not real. What is real is there are REAL people sitting behind the keyboards...anonymous yes, to a degree. I have gotten to know most of the LS'ers as "people". You ARE real to me, your statements are real.

 

I understand the intent by the statement IRL, although this is real life too. Words are powerful.

 

Internet or not, it is not okay to be rude, crude and socially unacceptable. Believe it or not, there are "rights" that individuals have on the internet to no be harrassed, abused verbally etc. even on the internet.

 

Because of technology and the internet, new laws have been put into place to protect internet users and it's not just identity theft. I briefly checked out the laws...

 

With the last paragraph I wanted to make the point that the internet is real and the advice given is also.

 

Sorry for the partial thead jack Jennie...I will once again go to my thead jackers anonymous meeting pronto.

[donnamaybe]

Just because someone doesn't like the opinions of others, regardless of what THEY think of their A, doesn't mean what those people say isn't "real." It's real to them. Just as I believe a 5 year long A is never going to result in anything but more of the same. I said it because I believe it, regardless of what the person involved feels. I don't say it to be mean. I say it because I truly believe it, and if I believe something like that is going on, I'm not going to sugar coat anything to give someone temporary satisfaction when I truly feel they are in a go-nowhere situation. That is called "enabling," and I won't be a party to it.

[In_Repair]

I must say I have never seen a post on LS stating high success rates for affairs whether written by an OW/OM or anyone else. So I don't know why you are bringing that up.

 

 

I vaguely remember those posts, and some of them weren't that long ago. I'm not one to go back through posts in order to prove a point, but the one that pops to mind had a couple of posters saying how this board isn't a fair representation of the success rates because most APs in a successful relationship wouldn't be here posting. I never saw anyone follow up with the real statistics though...

 

Like I said before, my posts are intended to help the OM/OW. I have no concerns with doing what is in the WS' best interest, nor is my advice geared towards preserving an obviously bad situation.

 

A seed of doubt is just that, a seed. It won't grow into anything if the conditions aren't right for it. I don't post in a lot of threads because I can't relate. I'm not here to just randomly dog on APs.

[jennie-jennie]

I vaguely remember those posts, and some of them weren't that long ago. I'm not one to go back through posts in order to prove a point, but the one that pops to mind had a couple of posters saying how this board isn't a fair representation of the success rates because most APs in a successful relationship wouldn't be here posting. I never saw anyone follow up with the real statistics though...

 

Like I said before, my posts are intended to help the OM/OW. I have no concerns with doing what is in the WS' best interest, nor is my advice geared towards preserving an obviously bad situation.

 

A seed of doubt is just that, a seed. It won't grow into anything if the conditions aren't right for it. I don't post in a lot of threads because I can't relate. I'm not here to just randomly dog on APs.

 

Oh, I've seen those posts, but they weren't claiming high success rates, just higher than what the postings on LS make it look.

 

As far as statistics go, there are no reliable statistics for the "success" of affairs. Talking of which, I just want to point out that an affair can be a success even if it does not end in termination of the marriage.

[pureinheart]

I'm confused, Jennie. This has to be the fifth thread you have started since I have been a member here on what you think other's should do to support an OW/OM.

 

Hi JT...long time no see???? Ya I understand, it is time for you to have YOUR life now and I'm extremely happy for you:D...

 

I personally think Jennies entire demeanor is sound, and have had some life changing things happen due to them. It was collective wording from all posters that gave me insight into my own sitch.

 

I "happened" by Jennies threads choosing to read them and think there is a big difference to that as opposed to having your own thread.

 

I find it interesting concerning "60's" babies. If I am off, please correct me Jennie. We were internalising everything, the change all around us. Look at the difference in just a few years in the technology advancement.

 

We literally went from "black and white" to "color" in many ways. I personally was a bit anti-establishment...60's babies were raised with the ideals from the 50's that ONE person could revolutionalise the world.

 

I boycott and picket a lot, that is normal to me...our era was just on the brinks of "communication" and other ground breaking ways of doing all sorts of business.

 

We were a bit rough around the edges in our younger days, but all our lives have taken the ball and ran with it, regardless of opposition. We see opposition as a challenge to create a better life.

 

Jennies refined demeanor has helped me with wording as I tend to have an explosive temper due to trauma, things are leveling out kinda now.

 

I take this thread and the others as a suggestion concerning communication to others...in reading I have been under conviction, wondering if I have done this too and mostlikely have, and will guard in the future against coming off in an unbecoming manor.

 

My personal situations were dramatic, and realise that not everyone has gone through my type of crap.

 

It's really good to see you BTW JT:D

Edited August 19, 2010 by pureinheart

[pureinheart]

I vaguely remember those posts, and some of them weren't that long ago. I'm not one to go back through posts in order to prove a point, but the one that pops to mind had a couple of posters saying how this board isn't a fair representation of the success rates because most APs in a successful relationship wouldn't be here posting. I never saw anyone follow up with the real statistics though...

 

Like I said before, my posts are intended to help the OM/OW. I have no concerns with doing what is in the WS' best interest, nor is my advice geared towards preserving an obviously bad situation.

 

A seed of doubt is just that, a seed. It won't grow into anything if the conditions aren't right for it. I don't post in a lot of threads because I can't relate. I'm not here to just randomly dog on APs.

 

Even weeds grow under bad conditions...I think it is the demeanor of the poster...the almost accusatory statements and attitudes.

 

It's the tone IMO, some are laced with poison.

[In_Repair]

 

As far as statistics go, there are no reliable statistics for the "success" of affairs. Talking of which, I just want to point out that an affair can be a success even if it does not end in termination of the marriage.

 

 

I'm glad you pointed out that last part. I totally agree, and it is part of the reason why I come here to post sometimes. Often times, the WS and the AP aren't on the same page regarding the reasons and expected outcomes of their affair, regardless of what might be said. Sometimes, the OM/OW expects things to result in them having a "real" relationship, while the WS is more than content to sit back and eat their cake. When this seems to be the case, I try to point it out.

 

I maintain that the moment a WS professes an intent to be with the AP, they should start making real moves to make it happen. If not, there is your first sign that the BS isn't the only one being lied to. That's not a blanket statement either, it's just simple logic. Sometimes, when wrapped up in the situation, we aren't capable of logical thought and we need someone to give us a good wake-up slap.