"What the OW gets"

[jennie-jennie]

I would HATE a relationship wherein I had no right to any expectations from my partner. I'm sure he wouldn't be with me if that's all I could give HIM as well.

 

My MM knows I don't do promises either. I stay as long as I want, no longer.

 

And I certainly don't want promises from him, seeing how trapped they make him feel. He is a man who should never get married, because he tries to hard to fulfill his vows even at the expense of going against his own morals and having an affair.

[jennie-jennie]

Yes, but had he NOT been ready to leave his M, she wouldn't have hung around on the sidelines waiting.

 

The price for GEL to continue to be an OW would have been too high. That is not the case for all OW. Benefit/consequence ratio again.

[donnamaybe]

My MM knows I don't do promises either. I stay as long as I want, no longer.

 

And I certainly don't want promises from him, seeing how trapped they make him feel. He is a man who should never get married, because he tries to hard to fulfill his vows even at the expense of going against his own morals and having an affair.

I'm not talking about promises of staying. Anyone is free to end a R any time they choose. I'm talking about promises of how to behave DURING the R. HUGE difference. I'm sure you can see that.

[donnamaybe]

The price for GEL to continue to be an OW would have been too high. That is not the case for all OW. Benefit/consequence ratio again.

I think the ONLY OW on LS (who is still an OW ) who can HONESTLY say she doesn't wish for more (for her MM to leave their M's) is L60.

[Owl]

I would have to state that having an affair is categorically NOT fulfilling his vows, but deliberately and intentionally violating them.

 

I would agree with the comment made earlier that an OW gets what she is willing to accept.

 

Those that draw firm boundaries in what they will and won't accept tend to have "successful" affairs, in that they're often ones that tend to end in a outcome acceptable to the OW.

 

Those that aren't willing to identify or enforce those boundaries most often end up with an outcome that they're less happy with.

 

And to the original post, I think that's a clear example of what we commonly see on this site and others...situations where those expectations, and more specifically those boundaries were either not clearly communicated, or not clearly enforced........or, the WS simply wasn't willing to engage in the kind of outcome that the OW/OM wanted.

[OWoman]

Could jthorne mean the part she underlined:

 

 

Oh - the "never ever" bit instead of the "waiting" bit. Well, I'm not psychic, nor a time traveller, so I can't predict the future and I'm not in the habit of projecting any certainty onto something I can't know anything about.

 

Some may well never leave. Some may eventually leave - too late for the OW, too late for the R, too late for any hope to survive. Others may leave in the nick of time, creating a turmoil of hope and disappointment in the OW, a confused fMM and a bittersweet R. Still others may leave in good time - or may have left in good time if their OWs were still there for them; but seeing the OW lose faith and bail fuels their worst doubts about life outside of their flawed M, so they give up on their hopes and dreams and resign themselves to staying, since it's better than nothing... Some others may leave, but not end up with the OW, for whatever reasons. And some others - the mythical 3% - may leave and land up happily ever after with the OW. All those scenarios and others are possible, indeed happen - but which scenario will play out in any individual story can only be gleaned at the point of it actually happening (and staying happened).

 

Any other comment would be purely speculative - so I fail to see how that could possibly be "the most important" part of the post...?

[jennie-jennie]

I'm not talking about promises of staying. Anyone is free to end a R any time they choose. I'm talking about promises of how to behave DURING the R. HUGE difference. I'm sure you can see that.

 

Okay? Well, I have no complaints about how my MM behaves towards me or as a participant in our relationship, so I don't know what you are getting at.

[jennie-jennie]

I think the ONLY OW on LS (who is still an OW ) who can HONESTLY say she doesn't wish for more (for her MM to leave their M's) is L60.

 

You are confusing "wishing for more" with the benefit/consequence ratio I am talking about.

 

I guess "wishing for more" would be a negative, but if there are enough positives to weigh that up, I don't see any reason why not to be an OW just because you want more.

[White Flower]

As far as what OW Gets...she should get what she wants.

If she just wants a FWB then she should get that or leave.

If she wants him to leave his wife...she should get that or leave.

If she wants to be supported financially...she should get that or leave.

Its like anything else that is optional...if it stops working for you, if it isnt giving you what you want, if it hurts you...then stop it.

 

If an OW wants more from her MM than he has shown her he is willing to give...then it is only working for him. She will remain optional, will remain unfulfilled. OW Get what they are willing to take or what they are willing to sacrifice. Depends which you prefer.

Right on. It is not the A that determines the nature of the R, it is the people in it.

 

If you are only getting scraps, chances are you are only expecting scraps. Change your expectations and alter the nature of the A.

[White Flower]

From my own, and the experiences I have read about the OW often seems to get what they are willing to put up with!

 

 

True for both BS , OW, and many WS.

Amen!!!

 

I think I put up with more shyte in my M than I ever did in my A, barring the second D-day and the NC call of course.

 

On second thought, my ex did some pretty horrible shyte. Yeah, I put up with more shyte from my M.

[donnamaybe]

Okay? Well, I have no complaints about how my MM behaves towards me or as a participant in our relationship, so I don't know what you are getting at.

Sure you do. Although originally I hadn't made that post in regards to any particular situation between you and your MM, you have outlined how you had discussed that you didn't want him having sex with his wife. He agreed not to do so. But then he did anyway.

 

And yet you remain. Furthermore, should he subsequently remain silent on the subject (no longer share with you that he has sex with his wife), you will assume he is not having sex with his wife because you just KNOW he won't lie to you.

 

My original point in that post was where you said

And I certainly don't want promises from him, seeing how trapped they make him feel.

sounds like you have no right to ANY expectations from him.

[Spark1111]

Actually, it wasn't intended as bashing at all - though it clearly touched a nerve?

 

It really was a question - if someone really recognises that that is all that they are getting in an A, wtf are they doing in it? For those that are still in As, is that all that they are getting - or is it different for them, that they are getting other things that keep them there? Or, if not, and they really are getting just that and wanting something more - then, honestly, what is keeping them there?

 

An earlier post - I think it was Torrance? - mooted that it may be a perspective that comes after the ending of an A that didn't work out as hoped, something which I responded to as that seemed to make some sense... but the OP was certainly a genuine question, as I really couldn't understand someone willingly putting themselves in a position like that and staying there for any kind of time.

 

But OW, if there wasn't any pain from wanting more with a MP, why is there such activity on this site?

 

Not everyone is clearly happy with what they receive in a relationship with a committed partner.

 

This forum is FILLLED with OW/OM who want more: more time, more attention, more commitment and wait, or have waited YEARS to get it.

 

Your response is unique to you and your position.

 

Those who fell in love and are waiting for more post here constantly.

 

If they didn't yearn for more, they wouldn't be posting at the OW/OM forum at LS, IMHO.

[Spark1111]

Right on. It is not the A that determines the nature of the R, it is the people in it.

 

If you are only getting scraps, chances are you are only expecting scraps. Change your expectations and alter the nature of the A.

 

Or ANY relationship.

 

Truer words have never been spoken!

[donnamaybe]

You are confusing "wishing for more" with the benefit/consequence ratio I am talking about.

 

I guess "wishing for more" would be a negative, but if there are enough positives to weigh that up, I don't see any reason why not to be an OW just because you want more.

Nah, I don't think I'm confused. It's like the toothpaste cap analogy I used somewhere else on LS. I would LIKE my guy to always put the cap on the toothpaste, but it won't often come to mind if he doesn't. It's just not a big issue; something that can easily be overlooked. Like leaving clothes on the floor or the bed instead of in the hamper. Easily overlooked.

 

However, refusing to stop living with and having sex with another woman is NOT something easily dismissed. It would NOT be something that wouldn't come to mind often. Therefore, considering there are plenty of good men who have made it clear they would love time with me, if my current man had some other woman on the side and refused to stop seeing her, I would dump him in a NY minute.

 

I know me. I HAVE to be my man's "one and only."

 

Others may not place that much importance on being their man's "one and only" I guess.

[ladydesigner]

This is so the truth. The one getting sloppy seconds is the wife. Never would I want to trade places with her.

 

A fair comparison would be when you as a teenage girl are together with a teenage boy still living at home. He has to go home each night, that is true, but it is with you his emotions lay. And his sex life. lol

 

You know I just answered on another thread about the sloppy seconds. I am both a BS and xMOW and both the OW and myself got the same. Sex is fantastic with my H, always was always will be. I am sure the OW experienced this as well. My H is still with me. He loves me. He may have loved her, but as far as sloppy seconds, nope. I still got great sex and so did she.

 

I am not sure I agree with this in ALL cases.

[White Flower]

I don't like the sloppy seconds analogy, but since it has been mentioned!-isn't both the W AND the OW getting sloppy seconds, depending on which of the OW or W the MM has just had sex with, and who they are then about to have sex with?

 

 

Exactly, but usually only one of the women knows/agrees to it.

This post can definitely be argued! I usually see MM first thing in the morning...we're both morning people.

 

His W bathes each evening, and from what I've been told (on accident) this would be her most aroused time (if she gets aroused at all) so if she demands husbandly duties, it is well after I have him.

 

But I don't think it's really going on over there. I know, I know, you can and will dispute this but I'm pretty ok with what I know.

 

Further, after D-day, she remembered sex was important and decided to take seconds...so she definitely knew/agreed to it...even if she didn't keep it up for long.

[OWoman]

But OW, if there wasn't any pain from wanting more with a MP, why is there such activity on this site?

 

Not everyone is clearly happy with what they receive in a relationship with a committed partner.

 

This forum is FILLLED with OW/OM who want more: more time, more attention, more commitment and wait, or have waited YEARS to get it.

 

Your response is unique to you and your position.

 

Those who fell in love and are waiting for more post here constantly.

 

If they didn't yearn for more, they wouldn't be posting at the OW/OM forum at LS, IMHO.

 

Um, then why (by your reasoning) am I posting here?

 

I'm not claiming that many OWs don't come to want more - either from falling in love and wanting to take things to another level, or because they were misled / mistakenly believed that more was on offer than turned out to be the case.

 

But that's different to settling for a "R" that is nothing more than occasional tepid sex, texts, emails and empty promises. The list said nothing about emotional connection, support, friendship, or anything that might satisfy any needs beyond the immediately physical - and even those, not so much It struck me as sad that someone would settle for something like that when they clearly wanted more. At least the OWs here are getting some of their needs met - most seem to have a strong emotional connection in addition to anything physical or financial or logistical or whatever other kind of support they get - I've not seen anyone here living off a meagre diet of mediocre sex and empty promises, and really can't understand what would motivate someone to do so.

[White Flower]

But OW, if there wasn't any pain from wanting more with a MP, why is there such activity on this site?

 

Not everyone is clearly happy with what they receive in a relationship with a committed partner.

 

This forum is FILLLED with OW/OM who want more: more time, more attention, more commitment and wait, or have waited YEARS to get it.

 

Your response is unique to you and your position.

 

Those who fell in love and are waiting for more post here constantly.

 

If they didn't yearn for more, they wouldn't be posting at the OW/OM forum at LS, IMHO.

I'm not so sure posting on this site is indicative of As being in a constant state of yearning, but a momentary state and one in which we seek advice, opposing opinions and experiences, and a predictable outcome for our momentary question.

 

Um, then why (by your reasoning) am I posting here?

 

I'm not claiming that many OWs don't come to want more - either from falling in love and wanting to take things to another level, or because they were misled / mistakenly believed that more was on offer than turned out to be the case.

 

But that's different to settling for a "R" that is nothing more than occasional tepid sex, texts, emails and empty promises. The list said nothing about emotional connection, support, friendship, or anything that might satisfy any needs beyond the immediately physical - and even those, not so much It struck me as sad that someone would settle for something like that when they clearly wanted more. At least the OWs here are getting some of their needs met - most seem to have a strong emotional connection in addition to anything physical or financial or logistical or whatever other kind of support they get - I've not seen anyone here living off a meagre diet of mediocre sex and empty promises, and really can't understand what would motivate someone to do so.

We often advise those who are completely unhappy to get out and we tend applaud those who are getting what they want.

 

Again, I think we post here not to complain about continuous mysery but for new enlightenment based on new experiences within our Rs, not just ARs.

[jennie-jennie]

Neither I nor GEL were talking about having sex only. It was Torrence who did that. Please refrain from twisting my words.

 

And of course my response and most likely GEL's were responses to the BS' frequent telling the OW on LS that they only get leftovers.

 

If the OW gets all the good stuff: romance, sex, trips, attention, what is indeed left for the wife? Washing the laundry? Cooking the meals? Taking care of the kids? Nagging at him to fix the broken sink?

 

I have done some checking on what the term "sloppy seconds" actually means:

 

When one man has unprotected sexual intercourse with a woman who's vagina still contains semen from a previous partner.

(Urban Dictionary)

 

I must admit I had no idea this was the case. English is not my native language. I thought it referred to seconds at the dinner table. Thus my post above which refers to leftovers.

 

I figure this is why I got the reaction I did from Torrence and Sid. I understand your posts better now.

[White Flower]

I have done some checking on what the term "sloppy seconds" actually means:

 

(Urban Dictionary)

 

I must admit I had no idea this was the case. English is not my native language. I thought it referred to seconds at the dinner table. Thus my post above which refers to leftovers.

 

I figure this is why I got the reaction I did from Torrence and Sid. I understand your posts better now.

Yes, it is usually in reference to the woman containing leftover semen, but a man can take dried leftovers on his parts including his face home.

 

MM admitted to me doing this in his past before I came along. I know it isn't/wasn't beneath him. Yuck.

[jennie-jennie]

Sure you do. Although originally I hadn't made that post in regards to any particular situation between you and your MM, you have outlined how you had discussed that you didn't want him having sex with his wife. He agreed not to do so. But then he did anyway.

 

And yet you remain. Furthermore, should he subsequently remain silent on the subject (no longer share with you that he has sex with his wife), you will assume he is not having sex with his wife because you just KNOW he won't lie to you.

 

My original point in that post was where you said sounds like you have no right to ANY expectations from him.

 

I expect him not to have sex with his wife and if he does, tell me. I expect him not to lie. I expect him to treat me well, to be there when I need him. And so on.

 

So yes, I have expectations on him.

[Spark1111]

I'm not so sure posting on this site is indicative of As being in a constant state of yearning, but a momentary state and one in which we seek advice, opposing opinions and experiences, and a predictable outcome for our momentary question.

 

 

We often advise those who are completely unhappy to get out and we tend applaud those who are getting what they want.

 

Again, I think we post here not to complain about continuous mysery but for new enlightenment based on new experiences within our Rs, not just ARs.

 

Of course I agree. And why do we do that? Because we want our relationship to be better....Any relationship.

[pureinheart]

Neither I nor GEL were talking about having sex only. It was Torrence who did that. Please refrain from twisting my words.

 

And of course my response and most likely GEL's were responses to the BS' frequent telling the OW on LS that they only get leftovers.

 

If the OW gets all the good stuff: romance, sex, trips, attention, what is indeed left for the wife? Washing the laundry? Cooking the meals? Taking care of the kids? Nagging at him to fix the broken sink?

 

, have to say, I was the one that did the nagging to fix stuff, and he never minded. One summer we were both laid off and he came over everyday for about 2 months to help me with the massive home repairs I had.

 

Oh and Jennie you mentioned in another post that your MM never makes promises he cannot keep...wow did that take me back...exDM was very adamant about this. This is how I knew he was serious when him and his ex separated and he said he was done. I could keep him to his word, he was very dependable.

[pureinheart]

This post can definitely be argued! I usually see MM first thing in the morning...we're both morning people.

 

His W bathes each evening, and from what I've been told (on accident) this would be her most aroused time (if she gets aroused at all) so if she demands husbandly duties, it is well after I have him.

 

But I don't think it's really going on over there. I know, I know, you can and will dispute this but I'm pretty ok with what I know.

 

Further, after D-day, she remembered sex was important and decided to take seconds...so she definitely knew/agreed to it...even if she didn't keep it up for long.

 

WF, I was shocked to find out exDM was not having sex with his W. I never asked him during the A because I didn't want to hear the answer. If he says he's not, or you have a feeling, then I'd say you are mostlikely on target.

[Fieldsofgold]

I am very disappointed by this thread. When I saw the title, I looked forward to reading the discussion, because I would like to understand what it is in ANY less-than-satisfactory relationship that keeps people hanging on. They say that we do things for a payoff, even when the payoff is not clear, and I'd really like to know what the payoff is for people who are grappling with less-than ideal relationships. I was hoping to read their posts.

 

OWoman, I agree with you probably 9 times out of 10, maybe more, but IMHO, the opening post is offensive to OW/OM. It comes off to me sounding like OW bashing, like a flaunt: "I would never put up with thaaaat! ('cos I'm/my situation is better than that!)

 

I am not an OW, never have knowingly been an OW, was a BS, and I am still offended on behalf of OW/OM. I think the opening post is just demeaning, belittling, humiliating, and disrespectful to the OW/OM here who are struggling with their relationships, or the aftermath of their relationships. And MOST of the posters here ARE OW/OM who are struggling in some way with their relationships.

 

While I totally disagree with affairs, I have respect for the genuine pain and turmoil some the people in those affairs are dealing with, or have dealt with. Please show a little respect for their suffering.

 

I also am offended that this post has been limited to referring only to OW. That's just sexist. Most of the OM who post here are, or have been, struggling with painful situations, too. It's not JUST women who "put up with."

 

Interestingly, most of those OW/OM have not commented in six pages.

 

I think I understand why.

 

I'm done. Blast away. . .