A MM's perspective

[White Flower]

This is a fantastic post. There've been many on this thread but this feels balanced and not at all complex.

 

What I do love about this thread is that the subject matter is not terribly controversial, it's an everyday occurrence that most of us can identify with in one way or another, but that so many people CARE about the parties involved. Lots of us posters aren't necessarily in a position of choice as such, not in the way BHMM is anyway. Our choices are mainly about how we react to something/someone else. BHMM has all the facts and is making a decision and I like that so many of us give a damn.

And that is why it is so important for MM to post here. We are seeing compassion from all sides.

[White Flower]

Being a former xMM and now xOM I can totally relate to both sides. Excellent POST!!!

Me too. Seren is the absolute best!

[White Flower]

Well I also think it helped my xW as cause she could make a decision as well if she wanted to stay with a cheating husband. The sad thing is she still wanted me...but I didn't love her. I believe all around the truth did help everyone. Something that most people would agree to on this board about BHMM.

It is so much easier to deal with the truth.

[jj33]

BHMM I know you say you are fixed on your course but it appears you dont understand the difference between gaslighting and not telling.

 

If your W never suspected and never asked, then I could understand why you wouldnt want to tell and whether thats right or not is irrelevant because she has asked you point blank.

 

Once someone has asked you point blank, its no longer a question of whether you are hiding something that will never be known.

 

At that point you are as other posters have said so well making your W doubt her own intuition and perception of reality. At that point, IMHO you no longer have a choice about whether to tell if you are planning on staying.

 

You admit that you have gaslighted your W. To then say you are staying in your marriage and expect it to be fulfilling is extremely misguided IMHO.

 

Its a horrible thing to do to your W and you are seriously shortchanging yourself if you want any kind of openness in your marriage going forward.

 

Either you will cheat in the future because the M wont sufficiently improve, or you will continue to be emotionally absent due to your failure to solve the ennui I described in my earlier post. I wont even comment on how unfair that is to your W. And it certainly does no favor to your kids.

 

I have to say when people say I am staying for the kids I often think no you are staying for YOU. You dont want to be a single father with all the responsibilities that entails.

 

If you were a single father you would get more quality time with your children because you would be responsible for them during those periods when they were with you. Right now you are emotionally absent with your family. The thing is, you wouldnt be able to live your life knowing that your W was there to take care of everything she does for the family on a day to day basis.

[jennie-jennie]

It seems that magical love and connection between two single people isn't the same as a MM/OW, MW/OM, MM/MW. What some don't see is, it's the taboo of the affair, the sneaking around and lying, taking that chance and whatever else IS what makes it more exciting and more intense.

 

I don't agree with this. I have had the same kind of magical love and connection with single men. The thing is that it is hard to find, so if/when I find it I hold on, whether it is a single or a married man.

[jennie-jennie]

and just making a note that an unselfish man wouldn't think of hurting two women (much less one) at the same time in order to serve his selfish needs.

 

the unselfish ones they just never consider hurting the ones they love. in fact the ones i know are more self sacrificing than anything. they sacrifice self in order to make sure their loved ones are happy and have everything they need... thinking of themselves only after they think of others.

 

Romantic love is selfish. It is in its nature.

[xxoo]

Romantic love is selfish. It is in its nature.

 

Maybe the better word to describe these MM's actions is cruel.

Healthy people are selfish in their romantic love without being cruel.

[confusedinkansas]

I'm wondering where BHMM went???? Many pages & he's silent.

 

Bottom line is ~ it's wrong what he did! Period. (I believe he knows this)

But it does not mean that he has to spill the beans NOW. He's made his decision to work on the marriage & not tell his wife.

 

What I'm curious about is - BHMM have you been able to keep NC?

[Silly_Girl]

I'm wondering where BHMM went???? Many pages & he's silent.

 

Bottom line is ~ it's wrong what he did! Period. (I believe he knows this)

But it does not mean that he has to spill the beans NOW. He's made his decision to

 

work on the marriage

 

&

 

not tell his wife.

 

What I'm curious about is - BHMM have you been able to keep NC?

 

Contradiction in terms for me.

[breaking_bad]

It doesn't sound like anyone here has a problem w/ BH fulfilling his "duty" to stay in his M, and fulfilling his obligation to his W and children.

 

The challenge I have personally is that the duty to stay in a R, while on the surface could be considered honorable, becomes not honorable at all if you look at the "obligation" in such a plastic way.

 

We are obligated to be more than physically around. We are obligated by the universe to be true and "present" in our lives, and openly engaged with the people in our lives when they are important to us.

 

If you're doing anything out of obligation without being true to yourself and present with the people your life, then you will never be fulfilled, and you will never honor yourself. And news flash - we're not doing the people around us any favors by just showing up, contrary to what we may think.

 

Put another way, I can always tell when I'm sitting in the same room w/ my teenager, but he's spaced out on IM and not hearing a word I'm saying.

 

A renewed duty to stay in a R is all fine and good, but no one is going to thank you for fulfilling your "duty" to that R if you do it out of selfishness or without being present.

 

And personally, I don't respect anyone who thinks they're doing me a favor by staying with me when their heart and mind is somewhere else.

 

You can recommit to the relationship, or you can be obligated to it. Only one of those ways is true to your purpose on this earth and honors those you love.

 

That's why some of us recall the M our parents had, wishing they'd just split up already.... Obligation without honor and commitment is empty and generally worthless.

 

And lastly, I feel sorry for anyone who is walking this earth fulfilling their obligations without truly honoring themselves or those around them. What a completely brutal way to spend the very short amount of time we have been given to live. It ultimately becomes the root of human regret.

[bohogirl]

1. Man dumps woman of his dream to sacrifice himself for the greater good - his wife and family. Great, well done.

 

2. Man lies to OW for 3 years about their future. Game gets old as he is never going to follow through. Dumps OW. Escapes back to family unit who he controls by hiding his true nature. POS lying coward.

[reddog63]

It doesn't sound like anyone here has a problem w/ BH fulfilling his "duty" to stay in his M, and fulfilling his obligation to his W and children.

 

The challenge I have personally is that the duty to stay in a R, while on the surface could be considered honorable, becomes not honorable at all if you look at the "obligation" in such a plastic way.

 

We are obligated to be more than physically around. We are obligated by the universe to be true and "present" in our lives, and openly engaged with the people in our lives when they are important to us.

 

If you're doing anything out of obligation without being true to yourself and present with the people your life, then you will never be fulfilled, and you will never honor yourself. And news flash - we're not doing the people around us any favors by just showing up, contrary to what we may think.

 

Put another way, I can always tell when I'm sitting in the same room w/ my teenager, but he's spaced out on IM and not hearing a word I'm saying.

 

A renewed duty to stay in a R is all fine and good, but no one is going to thank you for fulfilling your "duty" to that R if you do it out of selfishness or without being present.

 

And personally, I don't respect anyone who thinks they're doing me a favor by staying with me when their heart and mind is somewhere else.

 

You can recommit to the relationship, or you can be obligated to it. Only one of those ways is true to your purpose on this earth and honors those you love.

 

That's why some of us recall the M our parents had, wishing they'd just split up already.... Obligation without honor and commitment is empty and generally worthless.

 

And lastly, I feel sorry for anyone who is walking this earth fulfilling their obligations without truly honoring themselves or those around them. What a completely brutal way to spend the very short amount of time we have been given to live. It ultimately becomes the root of human regret.

 

Obligation (duty) to stay verse chase a possible great connection. That is not an easy decision, especially if you have children. I think the OP is hoping he may reconnect with his wife. Do many think he will? Or will he regret it later?

 

Would be interesting to hear from people who faced that decision.........which did they choose, regrets? glad? etc. Does it turn into the SOS with the new partner after a few years?

[White Flower]

Obligation (duty) to stay verse chase a possible great connection. That is not an easy decision, especially if you have children. I think the OP is hoping he may reconnect with his wife. Do many think he will? Or will he regret it later?

 

Would be interesting to hear from people who faced that decision.........which did they choose, regrets? glad? etc. Does it turn into the SOS with the new partner after a few years?

I would assume most serial cheaters (or even a first time cheater) would make the assumption that it would turn into the Same Old S*** with a new partner after a few years.

 

My MM said as much in the earlier part of our A. He'd considered leaving before, for another woman, and drew the conclusion about the SOS (although he phrased it differently, lol).

 

After we achieved the intimacy that we did he no longer felt that way and is currently in IC trying to overcome certain issues before leaving. I'm in no way posting a success story, but just commenting on the mindset of a cheater as I know him.

 

If the cheater feels the benefit outweighs the cost, then he won't see the R with the A partner as the SOS as he has with his W in the same situation years down the road.

[desertIslandCactus]

Romantic love is selfish. It is in its nature.

 

Not romantic love itself, as selfish. Selfish is 'loving' someone else when you are in a committed relationship, or 'loving' someone who is not yours.

[White Flower]

Not romantic love itself, as selfish. Selfish is 'loving' someone else when you are in a committed relationship, or 'loving' someone who is not yours.

There are all kinds of selfish. And expecting someone to return your love just because you love them is indeed selfish, whether you are M to them or not.

[jennie-jennie]

Not romantic love itself, as selfish. Selfish is 'loving' someone else when you are in a committed relationship, or 'loving' someone who is not yours.

 

Loving someone romantically is loving someone because they make you feel good. That is why romantic love is selfish by nature. It is different from the altruistic love you hold for for example a child or a parent (or a spouse you no longer feel romantic love for). The altruistic love is there whether or not the person you love makes you feel good.

[anne1707]

There are all kinds of selfish. And expecting someone to return your love just because you love them is indeed selfish, whether you are M to them or not.

 

But expecting someone to stay with you when you don't love them is far worse.

[BB07]

BHMM, this whole thing is just SO wrong. You gave your OW crumbs, you gave your wife and kids crumbs and now you are still giving your wife the leftovers.

 

Leftovers might do for a day or two, but after that they should be thrown out. Sadly your wife doesn't even know that she is getting leftovers. She has to "settle" for a half assed marriage and she doesn't even know it.

You really screwed up, not just your life, but the OW's, the wife's and your kids and now you are trying to do the "right thing" and fix it. Don't you see that you can't fix it by yourself?

 

I hope you really comprehend what you have done to others that you profess to love.

[xxoo]

Loving someone romantically is loving someone because they make you feel good. That is why romantic love is selfish by nature. It is different from the altruistic love you hold for for example a child or a parent (or a spouse you no longer feel romantic love for). The altruistic love is there whether or not the person you love makes you feel good.

 

Romantic love, in all kinds of relationships is selfish. Selfish as in: in makes me feel good, if feeds my soul, it adds meaning to my life. It is a healthy, constructive selfish--similar to a parent taking some time for a hobby, after making sure the family's needs are met first.

 

Having an affair with an OP, while gaslighting your spouse, is cruelly selfish. Selfish as in: I am going to meet my own needs at the expense of my family. I am going to act in hurtful ways because it is easier for me. It is an unhealthy, destructive selfish.

 

What I am saying is, the fact that romantic love is inherently selfish is not an excuse for conducting relationships in destructively selfish ways.

Edited September 3, 2010 by xxoo

[OWoman]

Not romantic love itself, as selfish. Selfish is 'loving' someone else when you are in a committed relationship, or 'loving' someone who is not yours.

 

Slavery was abolished centuries ago. Nobody owns anyone anymore, no one is "yours". But essentially you're saying, unless love is reciprocal, within a certified R, it's selfish? So, a secret crush would be selfish, a R where one person loved more than the other would be selfish, and loving a stepchild would be selfish? Interesting view....

[seren]

Slavery was abolished centuries ago. Nobody owns anyone anymore, no one is "yours". But essentially you're saying, unless love is reciprocal, within a certified R, it's selfish? So, a secret crush would be selfish, a R where one person loved more than the other would be selfish, and loving a stepchild would be selfish? Interesting view....

 

I agree that no one owns anyone and that it is possible to love without reciprocity. However, when there is an understanding that you are loved, are told you are loved and are being lied to, to enable the other to say the same things to another, without you deciding if this is what you want from a relationship is hugely selfish. For me, the key factor in a betrayal is that two people in the A have a choice, they understand their relationship within the triangle. The other thinks they understand their relationship, they, possibly by child care or work enable the other to have the time for another.

What I am in a very rambling, complicated way trying to say, is to use my own experience is that had I known H was having an A, I wouldn't stop loving him, but I wouldn't show love, I wouldn't invest anymore of my heart or emotion in him. I certainly wouldn't have supported him financially, I did because it was part of what I thought was a relationship based on reciprocity and respect.

[OWoman]

I agree that no one owns anyone and that it is possible to love without reciprocity. However, when there is an understanding that you are loved, are told you are loved and are being lied to, to enable the other to say the same things to another, without you deciding if this is what you want from a relationship is hugely selfish. For me, the key factor in a betrayal is that two people in the A have a choice, they understand their relationship within the triangle. The other thinks they understand their relationship, they, possibly by child care or work enable the other to have the time for another.

What I am in a very rambling, complicated way trying to say, is to use my own experience is that had I known H was having an A, I wouldn't stop loving him, but I wouldn't show love, I wouldn't invest anymore of my heart or emotion in him. I certainly wouldn't have supported him financially, I did because it was part of what I thought was a relationship based on reciprocity and respect.

 

... but would you have considered him "not yours" during the A?

 

IMO, love is love, and should be celebrated when it happens (provided it's not exploitative - like paedophilia - or unwanted, like stalking). I don't think it's more or less selfish because it may not be reciprocated, or because the object of one's love may not "belong" to one.

 

Would I enable my H to love another? IDK - I guess it would depend on who that person was, whether that R enriched or compromised our R, whether or not I felt threatened by it, what was going on in my own life... Would I be generous about a new (romantic) love that he didn't confide in me about? I very much doubt! Given how critical honesty is to our R, I would likely feel excluded, hurt, rejected and angry, and would likely deeply resent his new happiness and view it as selfish, yes. If you really love someone - surely you want to share things with them?

[eleanorrigby]

It doesn't sound like anyone here has a problem w/ BH fulfilling his "duty" to stay in his M, and fulfilling his obligation to his W and children.

 

The challenge I have personally is that the duty to stay in a R, while on the surface could be considered honorable, becomes not honorable at all if you look at the "obligation" in such a plastic way.

 

We are obligated to be more than physically around. We are obligated by the universe to be true and "present" in our lives, and openly engaged with the people in our lives when they are important to us.

 

If you're doing anything out of obligation without being true to yourself and present with the people your life, then you will never be fulfilled, and you will never honor yourself. And news flash - we're not doing the people around us any favors by just showing up, contrary to what we may think.

 

Put another way, I can always tell when I'm sitting in the same room w/ my teenager, but he's spaced out on IM and not hearing a word I'm saying.

 

A renewed duty to stay in a R is all fine and good, but no one is going to thank you for fulfilling your "duty" to that R if you do it out of selfishness or without being present.

 

And personally, I don't respect anyone who thinks they're doing me a favor by staying with me when their heart and mind is somewhere else.

 

You can recommit to the relationship, or you can be obligated to it. Only one of those ways is true to your purpose on this earth and honors those you love.

 

That's why some of us recall the M our parents had, wishing they'd just split up already.... Obligation without honor and commitment is empty and generally worthless.

 

And lastly, I feel sorry for anyone who is walking this earth fulfilling their obligations without truly honoring themselves or those around them. What a completely brutal way to spend the very short amount of time we have been given to live. It ultimately becomes the root of human regret.

 

This forum needs a thank you or rep button. I love this post.

[terrific]

Hang in there, one step at a time. Call your wife and say hi if your are thinking of her.

[awkward]

^^ Or call your wife and tell her you need to talk.

 

If you aren't willing to talk about the elephant in the room, maybe you would be willing to talk about the pre-affair issues, your intimacy issues, and about you not being in love with her anymore.

 

Ordering her flowers and saying "I love you" when it's a lie will get you nowhere.