A MM's perspective

[Ellin]

And you know that his W could feel the same, right? (well maybe minus the glossy parts of love and sex, since they didn't have much of it). Why is this being illustrated exclusively for his OW? I know... I know... this is the OW/OM forum. Aren't we all WOMEN (mostly) but mostly HUMAN???????? Or they must be anything like you, Sept? I am perhaps nothing like you, nor I have ever been the OW but I have felt all that you described above AND yes, I questioned most of the same as listed, when my xH left me for someone else.

But that would make me a "bitter scorned BS" to have felt like that, no?

Since some of you classify others for having those same little feelings that we all are capable of having.

 

Gets old....

 

I thought there was plenty of posts on this thread presenting the W's perspective and stressing how painful it must be for her or how unfair it is on her, without any mention of the OW's pain. I think that in fact the majority of posters expressed feeling sorry for W and minority for OW.

 

So why does it bother you so much that some point out the OW's side of things? Would you only be satisfied if she wasn't mentioned at all?

 

Talk about mind control (which you once threw at me if I recall correctly).

[BHMM]

I know I'm coming late to this thread, but welcome, BHMM.

Thank you.

 

BH, you probably don't mean it as such, but have you considered how insulting this is from your OW's perspective? That - if some other woman didn't want you, she'd finally be good enough for you? That she wasn't good enough to choose of your own free will, but you'd settle for her if you couldn't get your first choice? Have you considered that, if it did happen that your BW found out and kicked you out, and you went to your OW, chances are she'd send you packing, too?

I know what I said came out like that, but that's not the way I intended it. I just meant that if my W wanted to dissolve the M and had no interest in keeping it together for the sake of the kids, then naturally I would want to be with the person I'm in love with. I wouldn't consider it settling or calling her second choice. But it's a moot point regardless.

 

BH no woman wants to be second choice. No woman wants to get the consolation prize. Every woman wants to be with someone who chooses to be with them. And you've denied both women this option. You haven't chosen to be with your BW - you've chosen to be with your kids, and your BW is part of that equation, so she gets you by default. If - or when - she finds that out, don't expect relief, sympathy or understanding. Expect hurt, anger and possibly rejection. You have put her in a position no woman wants to be in.

I understand the consequences of my choice. And I understand the possible outcomes if my W ever finds out.

 

And you haven't chosen to be with your OW. If you do go to her now, because your BW kicks you out, she would also get you by default. And she will not offer relief, sympathy or understanding either - she will be angry that she's good enough to be a soft landing, but not good enough to be your first choice.

 

If I were either of those women, my fury would know no bounds.

I completely understand this.

BTW, it's not like I'm happy or content with this situation either. I'm not imagining bouncing around from woman to woman with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. Don't paint me as some mastermind laughing maniacally and rubbing my hands together as I watch these two women suffer. I know the A was wrong and I know I've hurt both of them. The guilt I feel from everything I've done is has had a profound effect on my mental and physical health. And I'm not saying that for pity, because I know I what I did.

 

You're doing neither of them a favour, and I hope you're honest enough with yourself to recognise that this is, ultimately, all about you. You're projecting what you think would be best for your kids, without actually asking them or exploring the options with a family counsellor. You're second-guessing, based on your own projections. My H did that too, for years, before he finally got the courage together to leave his BW. But before he left, he spoke to them about it and they supported him in leaving. They're far happier how - we all are. My father, OTOH, stayed "for the kids" until we were all grown - and not one of us thought that he did the right thing for us. It was the right thing for him - he got to fulfill his duty and do what a man should do - but we spared no opportunity to tell him again and again that it was a selfish choice, taken in his interest only, and not in ours. Whether or not your kids feel similarly later, only time will tell - but you need to be honest at this point and admit to yourself that your choices are about your own happiness and your own projection about theirs, and not actually about their reality (nor anyone else's).

You may be right that my choices are primarily self-serving. Maybe I'm choosing to stay with my kids because I wouldn't be able to deal with my own guilt. Regardless of the motivation, I still think staying and being here for them is the right choice in the end. But you make very valid and interesting points.

Don't expect any thanks for your "sacrifice", is all I'm saying - if you're not getting enough satisfaction from having done it for yourself, then you'd be wise to reconsider, or you're likely to land up old and embittered, judged and pitied by those you thought you were doing such a favour by deciding for them what you thought would be best...

I don't expect thanks from anyone. I am very happy and satisfied to see my kids enjoy spending more time with me.

 

Good luck. I hope you can make it work out for you somehow. And I hope those you love can learn to live with your choices, ultimately.

Thanks for all you wrote OWoman, I can tell you put a lot of thought and time into your response. Though I don't agree with every part of your assessment, you gave me a lot to think about.

 

Please stick around!

[BHMM]

BHMM, you titled this thread "A MM's perspective". And you've spent a lot of time on this thread (understandably) considering your exOW's perspective.

 

How much time have you spent considering your BS's perspective? Outside of deciding not to tell her (either because you don't want to hurt her with the knowledge of your actions, or because you fear her divorcing you), have you considered what she really wants and deserves in her life?

 

Does your wife, the mother of your children, deserve a "good enough" marriage, or does she deserve the intense love that you felt with your OW? Does she deserve a spouse who is honest with her, as you were with your OW? Does she deserve the opportunity to make informed choices about her own life?

 

If not, why not?

 

I'm really curious how you believe you can have a functional marriage without honesty. You made a point to tell us that you were honest with your OW. Can you see how that honesty improved the intimacy and functioning of that relationship? How that kind of honesty may have been a big part of what was missing in your marriage, leading to the affair? Why, then, would you fall back on "we were never that open with each other", instead of creating the kind of relationship with your wife that you had with your OW...one based on openness, honesty, and true intimacy.

Thanks for posting xxoo. I admit I have not spent nearly as much time (in this thread or real life) considering my W. I can definitely see how honesty can improve intimacy and help rebuild the M in a truer way. As I mentioned earlier, I haven't completely ruled out the idea of telling her, I just have no plans to now. Maybe as I work through counseling and my own issues I feel that I can't keep it hidden any longer or need to open up to her about it for our M's sake, then I will.

[BHMM]

BHMM, how was your day today? Better than mine I hope.....grrrr.

Hi terrific, my day was okay. Sorry you had a bad one yesterday. Hope today goes better for you...

[terrific]

Today is going to be a better day, some are just harder than others. Glad yours was okay..

[BHMM]

That would be the case if he chose his W over OW because he in the end realised that he valued and loved his W more than OW for who she is and didn't want to lose her, but it's not how it is. He LOVES OW, not W, can't even have sex with W - so he didn't choose her for HER. He did it for different reasons, but his heart is with OW.

 

If W divorced him, then the reasons he's staying would be instantly removed and he couldn't stop it from happening. Then he'd be free to be where he WANTS to be, but feels unable due to having RESPONSIBILITIES elsewhere.

 

Of course this could look differently from the OW's point of view, but technically OW is his first choice in terms of love, but cannot be because of the circumstances.

 

The OW in question wanted the A to carry on even if he never left W, so it is likely she would happily accept him, had he come to her because of D inititated by W.

 

Although I know you find it difficult to understand.

 

 

 

Perhaps his situation is different from your H's or your father's. First of all this MM's children seem to be very young as he mentions putting them to bed at night. This is a completely different setting from one where the children are old enough to understand and discuss such issues.

 

I also wanted my father to leave my mother (but I'm not sure if he stayed just "for the kids"). I wanted him to leave because of what my mother was like and that's why I believed that I would have much better R with him if he was out of it.

 

It's perhaps different when both spouses are good parents and doing their best for the children and agree that it is good enough for them. You (general) will now say she has not agreed as she's not aware of the whole situation but I think she has in some part because she know things aren't going well in the M but is against separation.

 

I can understand OP's reasoning to a great degree. I never really cheated but I imagine that if I was in this situation - loved another man but had a H and children, and the H would be decent and devoted to family life - I would not leave him for the man of my dreams if that entailed losing custody of my young children. I wouldn't be able to do it - as simple as that.

WOW Ellin. Thanks so much for posting all this. You've articulated so much of what I've been thinking and feeling. I wish I could've written this response myself. Can I hire you for my PR? Seriously, thank you Ellin. You not only explained much of what I feeling to OWoman and others, but you did it in a way that is helping me understand myself more clearly. You're the best!

[BHMM]

BHMM - forgive me if i missed the details - can you explain exactly what happened at the end of your A with your OW? did she pressure you so much to end it? did you have any specific reason that fueled the end result?

 

what was it exactly that made things end... her not having her needs met and you not being capable of giving her what she wanted/needed? or was it just the guilt of the family life that made you try to put more effort into your home life?

I don't think you missed any details, I didn't post them.

 

It ended because it had to. It wasn't because of her pressuring me. Yes she wanted me to leave, but that was true for most of the A. I just got to a point where I was honest with myself and I knew I couldn't leave and commit to OW. We had been through that scene several times in the past, but I told myself it had to end, for both our sakes. Yes, I knew I wasn't meeting her needs but I knew it would've kept going if I didn't end things. I was wasting her time and destroying my family in the process. I guess enough was finally enough.

[BHMM]

That is the hardest part for me, the sharing. I am working very hard on that one w/ H and am realizing it is not something we have done in a long time and it almost feels unnatural. One baby step at a time soldier, we can do this!

Yes, exactly. But I think we can get there. It's a long road, at least we're going in the right direction.

[Silly_Girl]

BHMM, you just said: I don't expect thanks from anyone. I am very happy and satisfied to see my kids enjoy spending more time with me.

That makes me angry enough to cyber-slap you. Seriously. Three years you're not around for them as much as you could be and NOW you're happy they're seeing more of their dad??? Oh gawd...

 

You must really hate yourself right now.

 

My problem with you is that you have played God with all these people's lives. You've had 11 weeks of NC to sort your gameplan out and start making efforts towards your marriage. And it seems (to me) as if you've done nothing and are still moping.

 

I TOTALLY understand you're cut up and your BH in BHMM stands for Broken Hearted, but you've had your fun and games. And you've had the chance to think about things. You should be literally chomping at the bit to get stuck in to your marital problems.

 

You should have at least started some counselling. You should have enquired as to cost and lead times on marriage counselling. You should have spoken to your wife about you having had a difficult patch (or something which gives rise to some candid, constructive exchanges). You should be ON YOUR WAY. Baby step by baby step, yes, but you should still be on the path.

 

You should not be hanging around here 'commiserating' (your term) by PM with the OP's who are mourning their loss. You have a great chance here, to build a family life. You have a good wife, and kids you love very much. I think you're being far too self-indulgent and now you've made your choice and broken your OW's heart, and stuffed your wife around for years I think you need to step up and get this show on the road!!!!!

 

I'm sorry if you think I've been disrespectful, but I am often dismayed at your attitude and if you're adamant at which path you're on then get on it, your whole self, and show us what you CAN do when you put your mind to it. Let's hear how good things are going to be for you and your wife; let's hear the progress and the effort you are making whilst you 'fake it 'til you make it'.

 

I am suspicious of you because I don't think your heart is in your marriage at all and I want you to prove me wrong and I want all of you to wind up in a much better place.

[Silly_Girl]

...And breeeeaaatthe

 

By the way - still rooting for you!

[BHMM]

After reading this sentence I felt curious as to the reasons why you could share these private hidden part with OW and not your W?

 

If it's hard to answer, you can ignore my question.

I'm honestly not sure. It was me I guess, just keeping parts of my private self hidden in our M, just to maybe maintain some sense of an individual identity. And then for some reason when OW and I started talking I suddenly felt like she was someone I wanted to open them up to. It was new and maybe I felt like, here is someone who I can have a fresh start with. I don't know.

[torranceshipman]

i actually would recommend that you spend a few years ALL BY YOURSELF! that's right. without any woman.

 

find out what YOU really looks like. what a concept, eh?

 

it's really not fair to either one of these women to have to be with you any time soon. you would only be dumping a bunch of crap and negative enery on either one of them - why would they deserve that?

 

you are a very confused and empty man - so go be alone... to find out what happy looks like when you are not dependent on another woman. THIS way - you can spend a TON of time figuring yourself out - and time with your kids = who you state are your biggest priority anyway.

 

move out = spend time alone and with kids. all problems solved.

 

Very good idea.

[woinlove]

BHMM, you just said: I don't expect thanks from anyone. I am very happy and satisfied to see my kids enjoy spending more time with me.

That makes me angry enough to cyber-slap you. Seriously. Three years you're not around for them as much as you could be and NOW you're happy they're seeing more of their dad??? Oh gawd...

 

Yes, that statement really jumped out. Young children are so trusting, it is really sad to see this taken for granted in such a cavalier manner. Why isn't his heart breaking over recognizing this innocent and undeserved trust? BHMM should be ever so grateful that his children are not old enough to have figured out the truth. With teens, it can take well into their adult years to rebuild a good relationship after having neglected them for an AP.

 

I agree with SG that for someone who apparently has decided to work on your M, BHMM, you don't seem to be in any hurry to get started. You seem to take your family for granted. Don't you think you've pushed your luck far enough if they are as important to you as you say?

[Brokenlady]

I'm honestly not sure. It was me I guess, just keeping parts of my private self hidden in our M, just to maybe maintain some sense of an individual identity. And then for some reason when OW and I started talking I suddenly felt like she was someone I wanted to open them up to. It was new and maybe I felt like, here is someone who I can have a fresh start with. I don't know.

 

It has nothing to do with the OW as a person. She was "safe" to confide in. If she rejected you, no one would know it because your relationship was a secret anyway and you could blame her rejection of you on your marital status rather than yourself. It sounds like you got some serious issues with intimacy, which likely has much to do with why your M struggled in the 1st place.

 

Are you in therapy for yourself yet? I think it's probably more important for you to do this than go to marriage counseling right now.

 

For record, I applaud you for making a choice, any choice at all. So many MM flounder and don't decide. I regret that I think you made the "easier", less personally disruptive choice for entirely the wrong reason, but nevertheless, you made a choice. Good for you.

[Brokenlady]

I just don't have the time to read the entire thread, so forgive me if this is a repeat, but go search for threads by Devil Inside.

 

His scenario was similar, except that his xOW made the choice for him and left. He spent a long time pining over her and taking up space in his M without appearing to really feel invested, let alone in love with his W again. I suspect he still lurks here, and that nothing in his situation has changed, but he is afraid to say so for the blasting he'll get. Is this the kind of future you want?

[White Flower]

This is exactly what happened to me. It as my kids who wanted us to D, and claim to be happier than ever. At least they don't feel the tension in the house all the time, nor do they see him treating me disrespectfully. Sometimes life is better after D.

It was* my kids...

 

Jeez:rolleyes:

[BHMM]

You have a hard road to go. Even with love and passion between you and your W recovering from an affair is a hard road. Without, is going to be difficult. I do think before you can recover the marriage - if - you must recover YOU.

 

People always talk about how selfish affairs can be. While I agree with that - it is selfish - a lot of the times its almost a self-medication for what ails you. Even if you don't stay in your marriage, your kids will benefit from you finding you.

 

So don't wait. Talk to your wife - you don't have to confess. But just tell her you have been dealing with some crap, depression, trouble sleeping and want to go to IC. This will also open things up between you two to really get to know each other again. She needs to become your confidant now.

 

Best of luck.

 

CCL

Thanks CCL. And that is good advice, I was thinking about bringing it up with W in a similar way, just to open to the doors to discussion.

[BHMM]

BHMM,

 

You have really been put through the wringer here, but know that there are some of us who understand you more than you think.

 

My Sweetheart stays in his marriage for his child. I am told regularly that it is just an excuse. I don't think it is. I see him obviously torn between his love for me and his love for his child.

 

We are closing in on the end of our MM/OW relationship. His child will be "grown" in less than two years, and I am determined to stick it out with him. If at that time he chooses to stay in his marriage, then we will go our separate ways.

 

I have tried to let him go. I have tried to tell him to go fix what is broken in his marriage, but he has always come back. He says what is broken can not be fixed. He does not hate his wife. He respects and even loves her, but they have never bonded as he has with me.

 

He says that it simply isn't possible. He has tried in the past, and he gave up trying long before there was me. He went through a series of OW over the years, but none long term, and none EA. He says he never found the connection he was looking for until me.

 

We have been together for several years now. Our relationship is different from yours in that his wife is aware of our affair. She, too, chooses to stay for the child.

 

I don't happen to agree that staying for the kids is the right thing to do. I don't agree with it because i made the mistake of doing just that in my own marriage for far, far too long. I was miserable, my children were miserable. Only my now xH was happy.

 

I finally made the choice to choose my own happiness above all others. I left. I am happier. My children are happier. We are doing well. But the truth is, if I were a man, and I would have had to give up my children in order to seek my own happiness, I would likely still be stuck in that poop-hole town, in that poop-hole of a marriage.

 

I just wanted you to know that someone "gets" you. I understand why you are making the choice you are making, even if I don't necissarily agree with it.

 

I will say that if you really do attempt to reconcile your marriage, and you are not making progress after awhile despite your efforts, you may need to reconsider your choice. Not meaning I think you should go find your exOW and rekindle a relationship with her, but that you need to find a way to make your life happier. Children with happy parents are happy children, even if their parents are apart in order to find their happiness.

 

Good luck to you. I know how torn you are and how much you are hurting right now. I wish I had some magic words that could help you, but I do not. I am simply not eloquent enough to find them. But I wish you peace above all else. And I wish you joy. And I wish you love. Real love.

 

(((hugs to you friend)))

 

*p.s. My offer stands on the LS subscription. It is only a couple of bucks and I would pay it one hundered times over if it would help you to find the peace you are seeking.

Thanks for sharing all this FA. It is always good to read others' stories and see that we're not alone. And thanks for the support and understanding, it really does mean a lot.

 

I'll pass on the PM offer for now, but thanks again!

[BHMM]

Haven't read the whole thread (my, it's a long one!) but I'm glad you posted your story here BHMM. A lot of us have spent a lot of time on this forum guessing and speculating and arguing with each other over what goes thru an MM's mind, and this is a rare glimpse into it. It's great to finally get that "straight-from-the-horse's-mouth" perspective.

 

I'm not surprised you aren't attracted to your W after so many years of marriage, that you were vulnerable to an A because of the doldrums of a marriage gone stale (I'm assuming here, from what I've read in this thread). I believe it happens in most long-term marriages, that dull slow onset of complacent funk that sets in. I'm a big believer in "familiarity breeds contempt" - especially for men (just the way they're built, God Bless 'Em).

 

That said, I'd like to ask you if you've ever considered that if you had met your OW (instead of your W) all those years ago, courted her, married her and had kids with her, that you would now find yourself in the exact same place as you are now with your W?

 

And maybe this is (unconsciously) a big reason why you didn't leave your marriage for the OW? That you knew on some level you'd have to start allllllllllllll over again with somebody else, and eventually get to the same place anyway?

Absolutely, I've considered both of these ideas. I understand that what needs to be fixed is inside me, and the situations I've created have manifested from that place. Maybe I did know on some level I might just recreate the same chaos in a R with OW.

 

Also, do you think you're idealizing your OW, projecting so many of your own wonderful fantasies onto her? If so, it would be impossible for her (or anyone else) to live up to all that over a long period of time.

Yes, it is definitely possible.

 

Just some thoughts from a former OW. I know how it feels to say goodbye to someone you really love, and I'm sorry you are suffering this. I hope above all else that you are kind to your W and kids no matter how you feel inside. They love you very much; and that is a precious gift, any way you look at it.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and advice.

[BHMM]

I have not finished this thread but had to put an AMEN to this part! I get the feeling this entire thread is a love letter to his OW. Somehow, amazingly, she will get the link to this thread... then (oh noes!) the affair will start again.

Nope. Posting was just a chance for me to get some things out. I'm answering a lot of questions about my feelings toward OW and it may be coming off like a dedication to her, but it's really not.

 

The A is over and it's not coming back.

[BHMM]

maybe this MM knows his OW is here and this is his way of communicating with her.

 

it seems that a MM who intended to end the A and stay in his M as his top priority would be focusing all his time and energy on how to FIX his M - not post about his long lost OW.

 

IF you intend to stay married - how about putting forth your efforts into finding a more productive way to be happy in your M - that YOU chose.

 

is your OW here on this forum - it looks that way to me...

I seriously doubt she's here, and if she is I'm unaware of it.

 

Reading and replying to this thread does not take up the majority of my day. I don't think speding an hour or two a day on LS (while W and I are both at work) precludes me from spending time and attention on my W.

[BHMM]

But you were willing to waste your wife's time for three years? That's cold.

I agree, it is, and I'm not proud of it.

 

How are you redirecting the energy and attention you used to put into your affair towards your marriage and wife when you are over here on the OW/OM forum pining and carrying a torch for the OW?

Again, an hour or two on here during the day isn't taking time away from my W or M. I'm responding to questions and telling people my point of view right now.

And FYI, my feelings for OW are there, whether I post about them or not.

 

oh wow.. if you are even giving low contact a moments thought then you are not trying to work on your marriage.

I'm really not.

[White Flower]

It would require sharing a lot of his "most private, hidden parts" of himself with his wife, as he did with his OW.

 

But he is saying he is unwilling to do so, because they never have been that way together. And, because it would require coming clean about the affair.

 

So, likely no, he won't. It is a shame he won't consider doing what is needed to give his marriage a fair shot at true intimacy and connection. Seems like he is wasting some more of his wife's time.

He is wasting his wife's time if he doesn't try to connet with her the way it came naturally with OW.

 

I don't think you missed any details, I didn't post them.

 

It ended because it had to. It wasn't because of her pressuring me. Yes she wanted me to leave, but that was true for most of the A. I just got to a point where I was honest with myself and I knew I couldn't leave and commit to OW. We had been through that scene several times in the past, but I told myself it had to end, for both our sakes. Yes, I knew I wasn't meeting her needs but I knew it would've kept going if I didn't end things. I was wasting her time and destroying my family in the process. I guess enough was finally enough.

Altruistic all the way, but mostly for yourself. W wins the H, kids win the F, OW wins her freedom of time being wasted, and you look like the guy who did right by all.

 

There is another way by doing right by all, including being truly happy BH. Your W could be getting the freedom of time being wasted, your OW could get to be with someone who truly loves her, your kids would see a very happy daddy, one with love in his eyes and not constant guilt, and YOU would be serving everyone best because YOU would be happy too.

 

Just another way to look at it.

 

I'm honestly not sure. It was me I guess, just keeping parts of my private self hidden in our M, just to maybe maintain some sense of an individual identity. And then for some reason when OW and I started talking I suddenly felt like she was someone I wanted to open them up to. It was new and maybe I felt like, here is someone who I can have a fresh start with. I don't know.

 

I'm not so sure you kept parts of yourself hidden in the M to 'just maybe maintain some sense of an individual identity'. I think you found you couldn't trust your wife completely enough to be yourself without being judged by her. She doesn't make it safe for you BH.

 

Is it possible for you to try that route? Try opening up to her and see where it gets you? Tell her you didn't find that safe place with her and offer her the chance at making it so. Either it works or it doesn't.

 

It has nothing to do with the OW as a person. She was "safe" to confide in. If she rejected you, no one would know it because your relationship was a secret anyway and you could blame her rejection of you on your marital status rather than yourself. It sounds like you got some serious issues with intimacy, which likely has much to do with why your M struggled in the 1st place.

 

Are you in therapy for yourself yet? I think it's probably more important for you to do this than go to marriage counseling right now.

 

For record, I applaud you for making a choice, any choice at all. So many MM flounder and don't decide. I regret that I think you made the "easier", less personally disruptive choice for entirely the wrong reason, but nevertheless, you made a choice. Good for you.

I agree with the whole post except the part BBM. OW was not merely 'safe to confide in', she MADE it safe for him to confide in her. It takes a deep sense of trust to reach that kind of intimacy and it is a shared gift. This wouldn't have happened with just any OW.

 

And he may never find this kind of intimacy with any other woman on the planet.

 

But at least he has made a choice and hopefully he does the real work of making it work. If he doesn't he may end up back in the same boat, maybe even begin the life of a serial cheater.

 

And even serial cheaters are looking for intimacy, one they never had before with any other. Once they find it, they usually stop with the serial business. BHMM, seriously try to get that intimacy with your W, if you don't find it, end it...because then you will be wasting her time as well.

[Moanin]

"The A is over and it's not coming back" Why do you always say this with such conviction? Did you have an "ugly" ending? I’m curious to know what you did to guarantee NC……

[White Flower]

Nope. Posting was just a chance for me to get some things out. I'm answering a lot of questions about my feelings toward OW and it may be coming off like a dedication to her, but it's really not.

 

The A is over and it's not coming back.

Just to defend BHMM here.

 

His OP was to say yes, MM feel pain too. Their love lingers long after the A has ended.

 

I'm pretty sure that was all he wanted to say. But we all dug at him with our questions and the thread morphed. That doesn't mean he is intentionally dwelling on OW. It just means we keep bringing up the subject.

 

Now back on topic, whichever THAT has turned out to be...