Walking away in silence...why?

[florence of suburbia]

A translation of my above paragraph would be, he would never love anyone enough to let himself be at anyone else's power because he didn't love and trust himself. He would never let anyone love him, and if he realised they did he would run away like a child, screaming, leave me alone, no, go away. The reasoning behind running away would be equally puerile.

 

 

Here's another possible translation:

 

For whatever reason, you're a person who feels at sea much of the time, drifting from day to day. You hate it, but you keep choosing it for yourself again and again. Then you meet someone who believes in you, and you reach out and grab on. You hold on because they believe in you and won't give up on you and it helps you believe in yourself, but all this is very hard work. And then one day you get so very tired that all you want to do is stop trying, give up on yourself and just drift. The only thing preventing you is this damn pest who keeps on believing in you. It becomes a burden, like some noise that keeps you awake when all you want to do is sleep. So eventually you just let go and drift away.

 

The above may sound judgemental, but I don't mean it to be. I can relate very strongly to the drifter. I've only been in the other position once.

[You Go Girl]

The only thing preventing you is this damn pest who keeps on believing in you. It becomes a burden, like some noise that keeps you awake when all you want to do is sleep. So eventually you just let go and drift away.

 

 

That sounds like what is commonly called the "emotionally unavailable" and saboteur.

Read here on ehow, very good stuff: http://www.ehow.com/about_5050359_definition-emotionally-unavailable.html

[Simon Attwood]

I agree Simon....has been eye-opening.

 

The original posts courage and honesty has brought out courage and honesty from others. It's heart warming to see the effect that it has had and that through one persons courage and self honesty, others have followed their lead.

 

I've not been here that long, but I've not come across another thread like it on Loveshack.

[Crusoe]

The original posts courage and honesty has brought out courage and honesty from others. It's heart warming to see the effect that it has had and that through one persons courage and self honesty, others have followed their lead.

 

I've not been here that long, but I've not come across another thread like it on Loveshack.

 

Agreed. This is the thread I have been waiting for. Thanks for starting it Witabix.

[You Go Girl]

Thats a hard one to pin down exactly. All I can do is go back to the day I ended it. A perfectly normal Wednesday. I came home from work and called my wife into the lounge. I said it was over, I'm done. I sit here looking back at that moment, trying to relive my thoughts and feelings. There is only one way to describe it. Grey, cold, trapped. A kind of slow motion panic setting in, like my life depended on being out of there. The point of decision, well I can't say there was one, trying to feel it now leaves me unaware of actually making a decision.

 

As though everything was breaking down, I don't mean I was shaking or frothing at the mouth, nothing dramatic. I was feeling nothing. The aftermath was a different thing. Equally strange to me now. I came home from work each night when my family had gone and sat in the chair and cried until I fell asleep. I didn't go out, eat, nothing. I had a picture of my kids above the fireplace and I just sat there and cried, looking up at it. My wife still wanted to try, her family called me to speak to me. I refused point blank to listen. There was no one else. I was alone. Except, and I want to point out that I am not a believer in ghosts or anything like that, but there seems to have been a presence. A strange version of me, holding me down. As though I was jealous of myself, or perhaps I didn't deserve that life. And yes that sounds even stranger to me than it probably does to you.

 

 

 

 

She was always asking for this, and I was always saying what more do you want. She wasn't talking in riddles or making it hard to understand, I was absolutely incapable of understanding what I can now see is totally obvious. And that seems is how I viewed it as ungratefulness, for all the effort I was putting in to buy things. Its as though I was blind, things, things, bigger house, better cars.....all my family wanted was me, a husband, a dad.

 

I lost contact with my children for nearly ten years because of this. The time we reconnected involved a lot of hard questions from them about it all. My daughter and I talked for a long, long time about it all. I am happy to say we are very close now, my children and I (and grandchildren), but my ex wife hasn't spoken to me in nearly twenty years, and may never do so again. I do not blame her for this.

 

This post leaves me, and surely yourself Witabix, wondering why all that happened.

As I started another post with these words--they belong as a response to this.

LOOK DEEPER.

Now that may be very difficult 20 years later. And you may just be the poster boy for walkaway without reason. However, I doubt that's the entire story.

I think you've placed the entire burden of the disintegration of your marriage on you, and that's probably not entirely true, although you may be responsible for the lion's share.

Writing about my own first marriage was eye-opening for myself, about myself, about my ex, about what we did to each other. We were maliciously ruthless. Why two people that have a life together would destroy it with making the small stuff wars, is beyond me, and can only be attributed to youthful ignorance and stupidity. But writing what I did has started a healing process that has been left unfinished for years. I have worn the entire blame unfairly. This thread has started relieving some of that pressure.

Now your situation may not have been war, or ruthless, but you had very deep resentment by the time you left.

Like Tayla's brother...being treated as the 'trash man' when he came home from work, his W oblivious to how she was treating him. How frickin' unfeeling and rude and ...and...and!

I know that during the time I was a SAHM, or working only part-time, that I too treated my H that way. I do believe there was a time that he came up to the door in the garage and I handed him the trash. It was winter, he already had his boots on. But to greet somebody that way! A million little slights were done like that on both sides. How ungrateful.

I have a younger sister who is a SAHM who treats her H like this. She has him wrapped around her little finger and beaten to a pulp. They are working on their marriage, but I'm certainly not sure that there will ever be a balance of power there again. She's sent him to jail for pushing her, he's on anti-depressants, and so he no longer holds any power except to go to work and make the money and bring it home. Is that really any power at all...I think not.

You may have been completely emotionally unavailable. But your story doesn't ring true that you threw away your family with zero justification. You bottled resentment, and remembering it and acknowledging it, will be the first step in forgiving yourself, and I think you need that. So keep looking deeper.

[willowthewisp]

This post leaves me, and surely yourself Witabix, wondering why all that happened.

As I started another post with these words--they belong as a response to this.

LOOK DEEPER.

Now that may be very difficult 20 years later. And you may just be the poster boy for walkaway without reason. However, I doubt that's the entire story.

I think you've placed the entire burden of the disintegration of your marriage on you, and that's probably not entirely true, although you may be responsible for the lion's share.

Writing about my own first marriage was eye-opening for myself, about myself, about my ex, about what we did to each other. We were maliciously ruthless. Why two people that have a life together would destroy it with making the small stuff wars, is beyond me, and can only be attributed to youthful ignorance and stupidity. But writing what I did has started a healing process that has been left unfinished for years. I have worn the entire blame unfairly. This thread has started relieving some of that pressure.

Now your situation may not have been war, or ruthless, but you had very deep resentment by the time you left.

Like Tayla's brother...being treated as the 'trash man' when he came home from work, his W oblivious to how she was treating him. How frickin' unfeeling and rude and ...and...and!

I know that during the time I was a SAHM, or working only part-time, that I too treated my H that way. I do believe there was a time that he came up to the door in the garage and I handed him the trash. It was winter, he already had his boots on. But to greet somebody that way! A million little slights were done like that on both sides. How ungrateful.

I have a younger sister who is a SAHM who treats her H like this. She has him wrapped around her little finger and beaten to a pulp. They are working on their marriage, but I'm certainly not sure that there will ever be a balance of power there again. She's sent him to jail for pushing her, he's on anti-depressants, and so he no longer holds any power except to go to work and make the money and bring it home. Is that really any power at all...I think not.

You may have been completely emotionally unavailable. But your story doesn't ring true that you threw away your family with zero justification. You bottled resentment, and remembering it and acknowledging it, will be the first step in forgiving yourself, and I think you need that. So keep looking deeper.

 

Without wanting to be judgmental, I am going to be blunt as there is no way to say this any other way. What you wrote above really isn't the point though is it? Yes, you had resentments, but that isn't the issue, the issue is not trying to solve those resentments with your spouse BEFORE leaving and just up and leaving. You may have had resentments and complaints about your partner, but I'll tell you something, I had a lot of resentments and complaints about my X as well, but I didn't just up and walk away, if I had an issue I TOLD him.

 

You think handing someone the trash is ungrateful and rude, well heres an example of what I had to put up with, how about you just find out your mom is in hospital seriously ill and your spouse doesn't come to be at your side because he has plans to hang out with his friends?

 

Handing someone the trash when they have their boots on already is called LIFE and the incident should not be viewed in isolation of all the love and care that permiates through the marriage. In other words, we ALL do thoughtless things, but must we really always be on our best thoughful behaviour through fear that our spouse MAY think it rude,, ungrateful or whatever and just walk away? Is that really a marriage? Surely the point of marriage is having some secuirty that the person will stick with you and work to resolve problems and conflicts through good times and BAD. There may be resentments, although there shouldn't be any if you have discussed the issue immediately, COMMUNICATION, but even if there are, why are people so quick to forget that their spouse was married for a reason, that their spouse probably meant them NO HARM, didn't mean to be unthoughtful or ungrateful, why forget that they too have probably done things to make their spouse feel this way?

 

OTHER THAN ADULTERY OR ABUSE, THERE IS NO EXCUSE, NO JUSTIFICATION FOR ABANDONMENT. PERIOD!

 

Now, this thread, up until recent posts and developments, has been proving helpful to me and enlightening, precisley because rather than trying to self serve and self justify, Witibix has done me and others who have been abandoned the curtersy of admiting he was wrong to do what he did and not still saying all the things to us here, that he told himself years ago in order to self justify. That is progress for both those here abandoned AND for Witabix, that is what makes this thread so thought provoking and unique. You Go Girl, I'm sorry, but you are backsliding into self justification again IMHO, that's fine, if that is what you need to do in order to live your life guilt free then you carry on, but until you are able to take responsibility for YOUR actions you will never have a sucessful realtionship with anyone because you haven't learnt anything. Not trying to be mean, just trying to prevent you from making the same mistake over and over and over. When you first posted I thought you were "getting" the point and understanding yourself enough to learn through what you did, having read your recent posts though...I hope you are able to go back to your other posting and SEE it for yourself.

[You Go Girl]

Now, this thread, up until recent posts and developments, has been proving helpful to me and enlightening, precisley because rather than trying to self serve and self justify, Witibix has done me and others who have been abandoned the curtersy of admiting he was wrong to do what he did and not still saying all the things to us here, that he told himself years ago in order to self justify. That is progress for both those here abandoned AND for Witabix, that is what makes this thread so thought provoking and unique. You Go Girl, I'm sorry, but you are backsliding into self justification again IMHO, that's fine, if that is what you need to do in order to live your life guilt free then you carry on, but until you are able to take responsibility for YOUR actions you will never have a sucessful realtionship with anyone because you haven't learnt anything. Not trying to be mean, just trying to prevent you from making the same mistake over and over and over. When you first posted I thought you were "getting" the point and understanding yourself enough to learn through what you did, having read your recent posts though...I hope you are able to go back to your other posting and SEE it for yourself.

 

I understand that you are in an emotional time as this is happening to you right now, the leaving and dissolution?

But you are projecting.

The leaver too has reasons for their behavior. Understanding those reasons is paramount to their own healing. I have carried the blame for the divorce for ten years. I think I have every right to take a deeper look at my behavior, his behavior, and all the things that led up to my leaving. You would prefer that I do no such thing? I am not going to fulfill that desire, sorry.

You are attacking my healing. As for living guilt free? So you would prefer that leavers carry guilt until their dying day? That's projecting your personal hurt, which I am sorry you have.

I would like to forgive myself for my part of the disintegration of the marriage, and not take on 100% of the responsibility, which is unfair to me.

I understand now that I didn't leave guilt free. If we examine guilt, we often see children being told they are "bad", and they internalize this. Witibix is not BAD. I am not BAD. We may have done 'bad' things. Those we left weren't perfect either, and sometimes those that are left are more than responsible for greater than half of the disintegration of the marriage.

It is not simply that all those who leave are guilty and the ones left are innocent. There is no such black and white in this world.

You and I will work this through, as I see this as a terrific thread. I harbor no resentment to what you posted, as I understand it is personal for you. You were not in my marriage and can't judge it or me though.

I am sorry you feel pain. I do too, so let's talk this through....

[Steadfast]

I recognize some of these things; a certain self-destructive, 'I don't deserve to be happy' mindset in my ex. But she cheated; actively, and her silence as well as the abandonment that she put her family through was reserved for us and us alone. The pages of text messages/phone records proves she was communicating with somebody. I asked her once, well after the divorce was final if she was happy. She answered no. I didn't ask why, but her answer proved again her issues have little to do with me.

 

No one talks about that. We didn't order the meal, but we paid the bill.

 

Some may not like this comment, but I'm going to say it anyway. If, for any reason you suspect that you're wired this way, do everyone (including yourself) a favor and stay out of relationships. Don't have kids. But yet, people go ahead and jump in anyway, perhaps thinking this person will change me, or help me change myself. They'll make it all go away. Naturally, this fails and when it does, these issues are spread out to a whole new group of unsuspecting participants. Who asked for that?

 

But why? Why do those suffering inside continue? Selfishness. Sure, they're problems/issues/baggage bother them, but not enough to stop bringing others into it. People need to wake up and realize humans -all of them- are basically selfish pricks at heart. Only maturity can control it.

[willowthewisp]

I understand that you are in an emotional time as this is happening to you right now, the leaving and dissolution?

But you are projecting.

The leaver too has reasons for their behavior. Understanding those reasons is paramount to their own healing. I have carried the blame for the divorce for ten years. I think I have every right to take a deeper look at my behavior, his behavior, and all the things that led up to my leaving. You would prefer that I do no such thing? I am not going to fulfill that desire, sorry.

You are attacking my healing. As for living guilt free? So you would prefer that leavers carry guilt until their dying day? That's projecting your personal hurt, which I am sorry you have.

I would like to forgive myself for my part of the disintegration of the marriage, and not take on 100% of the responsibility, which is unfair to me.

I understand now that I didn't leave guilt free. If we examine guilt, we often see children being told they are "bad", and they internalize this. Witibix is not BAD. I am not BAD. We may have done 'bad' things. Those we left weren't perfect either, and sometimes those that are left are more than responsible for greater than half of the disintegration of the marriage.

It is not simply that all those who leave are guilty and the ones left are innocent. There is no such black and white in this world.

You and I will work this through, as I see this as a terrific thread. I harbor no resentment to what you posted, as I understand it is personal for you. You were not in my marriage and can't judge it or me though.

I am sorry you feel pain. I do too, so let's talk this through....

 

First, please do not tell me what I will and won't be doing! Secondly, don't accuse me of judging you.

 

You are taking what I said as a personal attack and misinterpreting what I said in order to self justify. I can't talk to someone who's mind is not open.

 

Just for the recored, no where in my post did I say that you or Whitabix were BAD. I said Whitibix realised what he DID was wrong. No where in my post did I talk about guilt for the DISINTERGRATION of the marriage, I only spoke about how people deal with conflicts in marriage and walking away rather than giving the other person a chance first to try and work it out. Not once have I said that your XH did not play a part in your marital problems, not once did I say that marital problems were black and white. Not once did I suggest that a leaver should feel guilt for the rest of their lives, I said take responsilbilty for your actions. How you dealt with it. In another post you said you choose to destroy your XH because of resentment, it was a power trip for you, you wnated him on his knees before you!

 

Anyway, this is a pointless discussion, here's why-

 

If someone lies to you, would you expect them to have a conscience in your relationship?

 

 

 

 

 

If someone abandons, would you expect them to take responsilbilty?

 

That is why Witabix is unique and also why he will heal, properly, fully and completely. No one is suggesting he should feel guilt forever, he was the person he was at the time but he has moved beyond that person now by acknowleging his own issues, that is healing, that is growth.

[witabix]

Posts #80, #81 and #82 are an interesting discourse.

 

I understand both YGG and willow's points in these posts.

 

LOOK DEEPER.

Now that may be very difficult 20 years later. And you may just be the poster boy for walkaway without reason. However, I doubt that's the entire story.

 

YGG it probably isn't the entire the story, in fact it certainly isn't, my wife's story is not heard here. She wasn't much of a 'sharer' of emotional stuff either. My children know this too now. My daughter was twelve when I left, I lost contact when she was fifteen or so.

 

She told me that her mum is distant to her as well, she had resentment towards her brother because her mum treated him differently. Her brother had resentment towards both his mother and his sister. For perceived slights and for using his good nature to take him for granted. My daughter suffered at the hands of an abusive young man in that gap. (I hope for both our sakes I never come across him).

 

My daughter talked to me about her early life, how she thought of me as a superman, so cool, I play blues in bars and paint and study science. My son, a grown man now, still thinks that its amazing that he might know something I don't, he once asked me "Dad, do you know everything?" because I know why the sky is blue, what the sun and clouds are made of, how much the Earth weighs, how a television works and I can explain them all with experiments and maths.

 

I let my children down so badly. Not just my wife. Not just myself.

 

Thats just another part of the story.

 

YGG, I just want to get to the bottom of why I did what I did. I spent years blaming my ex wife for her distance and all sorts of other things, that I now realise are self justifying. I do get your point, I really do. For me, now, its time to stop looking outward, to stop looking at the actions of others to justify my behaviours. I have done that my whole life. It cannot continue.

 

To find my inner peace with myself I have to take full responsibility for my actions. I don't think I am a BAD man, I have done bad things. I know my heart is capable of acts of kindness. I have helped strangers overdosing in shopping malls when everyone else walks by ignoring them, I have risked myself to pull people out of car crashes, I have stood by my Palestinian friends when they were attacked by others. I didn't do those good things because the people I did them for made me. Likewise I want to see what my actions in walking out like that look like from a similar perspective. I must say it looks stunningly unfeeling, uncaring and selfish.

 

Back to my wife, she did not push me out of the door, she didn't want the marriage to end, she made suggestions, her family 'pleaded' (wrong word maybe) her case. I stood resolute in my selfishness, and ignorance of what was going to become of them. I didn't just abandon them, I bought them a house, in fact I gave them pretty much all I owned except for my guitars and my clothes. But that was an act of self assuagement as well, I did that so that I could type those words that I just did.....see, I am still self justifying.....even now. Like all that 'stuff' made or makes any difference?

 

Thats the odd part, the lens of time reveals a point. A point that I can't quite bring into focus.

 

YGG's situation sounds different to mine. We never engaged in the war she describes, and I have seen that up close too.

 

My wife was the perfect SAHM (I assume that means 'stay at home mum'). I encouraged her to restart her art, and always showed an interest, she cared for the children with all her heart, and she cared for me too. I know that now. I have been through a few R's since, and have another child. With no real success, repeating those things that I had done previously. The common part of all my failed relationships is me and my 'Castle mentality'.

 

My last R, we had a baby last year, started out really badly with a betrayal of me by her. It was not an imagined one. She tried to get us over it. I made an effort too. At least for a little while, but I still couldn't get past my 'old style' thinking. I ended that, this time with a full explanation at least.

 

Where is my courage in these situations? How can I have faced so many things so bravely and with such fortitude and yet when it comes to deep personal relationships I retreat.

 

Is it a matter of pride? That doesn't seem to hold water IMO.

 

Is it self confidence? People that know me wouldn't say so.

 

Its something else, deeper, a desire to have total control over myself, never show weakness, never admit you have feelings, never let the other know they have the upper hand because you are so in love. I even did that to my kids for crying out loud.

 

I feel like screaming at myself. My eyes are filling with tears.

[You Go Girl]

She told me that her mum is distant to her as well, I let my children down so badly. Not just my wife. Not just myself.

 

Thats just another part of the story.

 

YGG, I just want to get to the bottom of why I did what I did. I spent years blaming my ex wife for her distance and all sorts of other things, that I now realise are self justifying. I do get your point, I really do. For me, now, its time to stop looking outward, to stop looking at the actions of others to justify my behaviours. I have done that my whole life. It cannot continue.

 

To find my inner peace with myself I have to take full responsibility for my actions. I don't think I am a BAD man, I have done bad things. I know my heart is capable of acts of kindness. I have helped strangers overdosing in shopping malls when everyone else walks by ignoring them, I have risked myself to pull people out of car crashes, I have stood by my Palestinian friends when they were attacked by others. I didn't do those good things because the people I did them for made me. Likewise I want to see what my actions in walking out like that look like from a similar perspective. I must say it looks stunningly unfeeling, uncaring and selfish.

 

Thats the odd part, the lens of time reveals a point. A point that I can't quite bring into focus.

 

YGG's situation sounds different to mine. We never engaged in the war she describes, and I have seen that up close too.

 

My wife was the perfect SAHM (. I have been through a few R's since, and have another child. With no real success, repeating those things that I had done previously.

My last R, we had a baby last year, started out really badly with a betrayal of me by her. It was not an imagined one. She tried to get us over it. I made an effort too. At least for a little while, but I still couldn't get past my 'old style' thinking. I ended that, this time with a full explanation at least.

 

Where is my courage in these situations? How can I have faced so many things so bravely and with such fortitude and yet when it comes to deep personal relationships I retreat.

 

Its something else, deeper, a desire to have total control over myself, never show weakness, never admit you have feelings, never let the other know they have the upper hand because you are so in love. I even did that to my kids for crying out loud.

 

I feel like screaming at myself. My eyes are filling with tears.

 

No two situations or people are alike.

You speak of how you justified your actions to yourself. I did the opposite, I took on 100% of the blame and guilt. So for me, this is not a healing thread in which I need to finally accept what belongs on my shoulders, but instead, to stop blaming myself 100% for everything that happened. Yes, I was the leaver. But our situations are in some ways complete opposites if you haven't accepted your responsibility in the past, and are finally doing so now, and I took on 100% of all guilt, blame, and responsibility, which isn't fair to me. I blamed myself 100% because I was the leaver.

It is liberating to finally let some of that go. This thread is doing exactly that for me.

This thread is a learning experience, like all threads are I hope. Helping anyone sort through why they have done the things they have done in their lives is the recipe to repair damage and learn from our errors so as to not repeat them. Understanding ourselves is key to this! There can be no progress without it.

And with that comes self-forgiveness, which is natural and happens without any self-justification, but instead is a direct result of understanding ourselves.

I don't see the point of this thread to apologize to every left spouse out there in the world for the perceived sins of their ex's. I see this thread as a means to greater understanding of ourselves.

So I am not self-justifying anything. I have practically put my ex up on some saintly pedestal because of the guilt I felt for being the leaver. It is time that he comes off that pedestal to where he belongs, a beautiful person who contributed to the demise of our marriage also.

You may have some issues to work through Witabix, but you are not unlovable, or unworthy of love. You simply need greater self-understanding. Hugs.

[willowthewisp]

No two situations or people are alike.

You speak of how you justified your actions to yourself. I did the opposite, I took on 100% of the blame and guilt. So for me, this is not a healing thread in which I need to finally accept what belongs on my shoulders, but instead, to stop blaming myself 100% for everything that happened. Yes, I was the leaver. But our situations are in some ways complete opposites if you haven't accepted your responsibility in the past, and are finally doing so now, and I took on 100% of all guilt, blame, and responsibility, which isn't fair to me. I blamed myself 100% because I was the leaver.

It is liberating to finally let some of that go. This thread is doing exactly that for me.

This thread is a learning experience, like all threads are I hope. Helping anyone sort through why they have done the things they have done in their lives is the recipe to repair damage and learn from our errors so as to not repeat them. Understanding ourselves is key to this! There can be no progress without it.

And with that comes self-forgiveness, which is natural and happens without any self-justification, but instead is a direct result of understanding ourselves.

I don't see the point of this thread to apologize to every left spouse out there in the world for the perceived sins of their ex's. I see this thread as a means to greater understanding of ourselves.

So I am not self-justifying anything. I have practically put my ex up on some saintly pedestal because of the guilt I felt for being the leaver. It is time that he comes off that pedestal to where he belongs, a beautiful person who contributed to the demise of our marriage also.

You may have some issues to work through Witabix, but you are not unlovable, or unworthy of love. You simply need greater self-understanding. Hugs.

 

So you are not saying that you weren't responsible for the WAY in which you choose to deal with issues in your marriage which you both contributed to?

 

Also, I just want to add to that I don't think any of us here who have been abandoned see this thread as an apology to an abandoned spouse, personally I blame myself for my spouse abandoning me, basically because I love him with all my heart and soul his words and actions impact upon me and if he tells me I am to blame, then I must be to blame. What this thread is doing is helping me to alter my perspevtive and question if in fact I am to blame for HIS CHOICE in abandoning me.

Edited September 4, 2010 by willowthewisp

[Simon Attwood]

Let us not drag down a thread of such honesty, courage and importance, to the level of all the other threads, please?

[witabix]

I did the opposite, I took on 100% of the blame and guilt. So for me, this is not a healing thread in which I need to finally accept what belongs on my shoulders, but instead, to stop blaming myself 100% for everything that happened. Yes, I was the leaver. But our situations are in some ways complete opposites if you haven't accepted your responsibility in the past, and are finally doing so now, and I took on 100% of all guilt, blame, and responsibility, which isn't fair to me. I blamed myself 100% because I was the leaver.

 

YGG, that sounds equally unhelpful for yourself. If you can get something out that reduces your feeling of being 100% responsible thats good as well, as you say, perhaps we stand at opposite ends of the same stick.

 

I don't see the point of this thread to apologize to every left spouse out there in the world for the perceived sins of their ex's.

 

I certainly don't see you as needing to apologise to anyone. I do, in the absence of my ex wife sitting in front of me I symbolically apologise to a computer screen, that reads as a weird, sad thing. What I think I may be doing is apologising to myself.

 

I see this thread as a means to greater understanding of ourselves.

 

That is what I am trying to do also.

 

So I am not self-justifying anything.

 

I don't see that you are. Your feelings here are as legitimate as mine.

[You Go Girl]

Its something else, deeper, a desire to have total control over myself, never show weakness, never admit you have feelings, never let the other know they have the upper hand because you are so in love. I even did that to my kids for crying out loud.

 

I feel like screaming at myself. My eyes are filling with tears.

 

I think that since Witabix has put himself out here so nakedly, that we should get back to addressing him, as this is his thread. My situation is very different from his. In fact, comparing my situation with his could inhibit his ability to understand himself and throw him off track.

 

This paragraph I copied above needs to be examined very thoroughly, and probably with a professional. It sounds like Wit never wants to be vulnerable to another human who may HURT HIM. So where does this fear of hurt come from? What happened in your relationship with your parents, or am I way off the mark?

Who betrayed your trust at an early age?

[witabix]

So you are not saying that you weren't responsible for the WAY in which you choose to deal with issues in your marriage which you both contributed to?

 

Also, I just want to add to that I don't think any of us here who have been abandoned see this thread as an apology to an abandoned spouse, personally I blame myself for my spouse abandoning me, basically because I love him with all my heart and soul his words and actions impact upon me and if he tells me I am to blame, then I must be to blame. What this thread is doing is helping me to alter my perspevtive and question if in fact I am to blame for HIS CHOICE in abandoning me.

 

I think YGG is approaching this from the other end, she took on all responsibility, which is as unhealthy as taking none.

 

IMO you are not to blame for his actions. No one acts in a vacuum, that is for sure, but how can we cause another to behave in such a fashion. If that were possible then it seems it would be possible to 'make' someone love you.

[willowthewisp]

I think YGG is approaching this from the other end, she took on all responsibility, which is as unhealthy as taking none.

 

IMO you are not to blame for his actions. No one acts in a vacuum, that is for sure, but how can we cause another to behave in such a fashion. If that were possible then it seems it would be possible to 'make' someone love you.

 

But that's what all the WAS say isn't it? "If you hadn't done X Y Z, if you had of done X Y Z, I would still love you", "it's your fault I am leaving, you were X Y Z" so basically it's your fault they left. That is how it feels form the BS's perspective, not only are you in pain from missing your spouse, from still loving your spouse, you are in constant pain from knowing it was your fault and you deserved it. I was bad, not up to scratch, worthless, therefore I was punished.

[Steadfast]

 

But that's what all the WAS say isn't it? "If you hadn't done X Y Z, if you had of done X Y Z, I would still love you", "it's your fault I am leaving, you were X Y Z" so basically it's your fault they left. That is how it feels form the BS's perspective, not only are you in pain from missing your spouse, from still loving your spouse, you are in constant pain from knowing it was your fault and you deserved it. I was bad, not up to scratch, worthless, therefore I was punished.

 

 

Great point.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm down with the self discovery stuff (that is the deal in 2010, right? Everyone's getting all 'Eat, Pray, Love' with themselves?) but fretting over spilled milk is just as useless now as it was 50-years ago. That's not to mean we can't learn from our mistakes and -miracle of miracles- actually help someone currently suffering (if they'd listen...).

 

OP, how long do you want to rake through this dead fire looking for embers? The past, no matter how hurtful or painful, is the past. Done and finished. Hard as it might be to grasp, all we have is right now and right now is what should be focused on. It's like the early stages of a breakup; the best advice is for the betrayed to 'turn on the happy'...even if they don't really feel that way. I think the same process can be used to remake our personalities to an extent. Start doing the right thing (do unto others, put others first, don't speak unless you have something good to say, etc) now, even if you have to fake it. Someone once said 'point your nose in the direction you want to go and the rest of your body will follow.'

 

If I were you OP, I'd seriously consider using your very obvious communication skills and draft some letters. Not emails; real letters, written in hand on paper. Express your misgivings, actions and regrets to all involved and ask for forgiveness. This may not be the cure all, but how many betrayed spouses and/or loved ones suffer with unrequited love? What these souls do with it will be up to them; don't expect anything.

 

Give them the gift of your innermost feelings, your heartfelt apology and put a dagger to your suffering. Life is too short to waste it in misery.

 

Good thoughts and insight on this thread. As a betrayed spouse, I'd often wondered where the other path might lead. No enjoyment gained though.

[trippi1432]

And if you cling to that damage like a purple heart war medal, you can keep the victim mentality and wear the armor forever...so don't trippi!

 

I was thinking about what DTW said about the walls going up. It is more than just communication skill.

It's a declaration of war. The resentment of "Oh no you didn't!" is different in one particular case...

I remember my exH PURPOSELY and maliciously doing things to make me angry.

Now there's a difference there, between being complacent, thoughtless, selfish, ignorant, whatever flaw you choose to focus on, and being purposely malicious. THAT'S IT. There's the declaration of war, and up the walls go, the fortress is built, and the war games never end until divorce.

It's a critical error in judgment to choose that path. When partners act out, create a 'watch what I am going to do to you' scenario, go for drama of any kind, they've chosen war. It would be interesting to hear of a case in which the couple grew up enough to survive war and mend their marriage.

I can think of so many many cases of this in marriages...they may sometimes be simple little jabs, but jabs too are war.

 

YGG - It's not victim mentality, it's the damage I see that I did to myself and that my ex did to me too. I'm sure somewhere in there I damaged him as well, although he seems to be recovering from it much better than I did.

 

Damage holds us in our spot, stuck on things we didn't like about our previous relationships. It sets the stage for the next. The damage from being treated badly sets the tone for the next relationship and what you will and won't accept. I've know women who were treated badly by their exes move from relationship to relationship, never being able to emotionally invest for fear of the damage. I, for one, have a problem with emotionally investing, but that damage that I am carrying will never allow me to be happy. This is why I know that I will always be alone or never emotionally invested again.

 

Acts of war have no place in a marriage, but I could say that mine was pretty much filled with that. Perhaps it is limiting communication or communication differences. My ex never truly apologized for his actions in our marriage that led to those "acts of war". And maybe this is the difference between men and women, recognition of the action that hurt means more than the bigger picture. For example, my ex would yell and scream at me on the phone while I was at work because our son wasn't out in the parking lot to be picked up at a precise time (something that I can't control).

 

When I got home, war would break out because I was upset over his action, yelling and screaming at me.

 

Me: I don't like that you yell and scream at me on the phone. I've asked you so many times not to do this to me.

 

Him: Yeah, well sorry, but I'm tired of him not being where he is supposed to be. I have things to do and I'm just sitting there for 10 minutes in the parking lot waiting on him. I just got off of work, had a hard day and I'm tired and want to go home. I'm sick of picking him up, you do it from now on. All you do is sit around behind a desk all day, getting fat and lazy.

 

Me: What? Did you just hear what I said? Why are we now at this point? (Defensive)

 

Him: Yeah, and I understand that, but you have it so da*n easy in your cushy job and I hate pulling out of that parking lot, the traffic is horrible and that's why I am in a bad mood when I get home. You're the one that decided the school for him to go to, you can work it out. Not my problem.

 

Me: (Now put in the position of fixer) - Ok....I can pick him up two or three days of the week, will that help?

 

Him: You weren't listening to me, I said that I don't want to do it anymore. I'm not doing it anymore....why aren't you listening to me??!!!

 

Me: Fine, I will find a service to pick him up and transport him, I can't change my work hours to pick him up.

 

Him: Great, another da*n bill to pay and your job getting in the way like it does everything else. You put your job ahead of everything, you always do that and you hate your job....I wish you would just quit that job!!!!

 

Me: You know I can't quit the job...we need it to pay our bills.

 

Him: I didn't want this house...you had to have it....I'm sick of it and mowing the yard....it's too much work. I'm not going to be like your parents working myself to death over a yard for the rest of my life.

 

Me: Well, what do want me to do, I can hire a lawn service will that help?

 

Him: Your answer for everything, patching everything with money. No, I will mow the yard, I don't want neighbors thinking I am lazy. Wasting money like you did 6 years ago when you bought that stupid timeshare...been nothing but a pain in the a**.

 

Me: Why do we get here, why are you bringing up something that happened 6 years ago before we were even married? (upset, mad, no patience)

 

Him: Because you always do stupid stuff like that, I can't even trust you to buy the right brand of toilet paper when you go to the grocery store. You don't listen to me, you just do whatever you want.

 

Me: (Sucked in by now) - How is that wasting money, you blow enough money playing the slots.

 

Him: Yeah, but I win sometimes too and one day I am going to hit big (8th beer in)

 

Me: You know what, I can't do this with you....(go to the other room and get on the computer).

 

Him: (Yelling to me) Yeah, there ya go, your answer for everything...get on the computer.

 

A day or two spent in silence.....phone rings at work....yelling and screaming again, over the dog or the yard or something new. The actual action of the one little bit of respect I wanted to gain never acknowledged or recognized because I set the stage of what I would continue to tolerate. Because the action was never acknowledged or apologized for. This is an actual argument from two years ago that led to me hanging up the phone on him when he called like that. As soon as he started yelling and screaming, click.

 

Of course my actions now led to a new stage of wars, which still came around to the above conversation or something similar. When he left, it was much like this....I'm leaving because I'm sick of you hanging up the phone on me, I'm tired of mowing the yard, I never wanted all these material things....hope you are happy by yourself, you will be alone for the rest of your life because you let yourself go and no one can love someone like you...tell everyone we split up over our jobs.

[witabix]

I think that since Witabix has put himself out here so nakedly, that we should get back to addressing him, as this is his thread. My situation is very different from his. In fact, comparing my situation with his could inhibit his ability to understand himself and throw him off track.

 

This paragraph I copied above needs to be examined very thoroughly, and probably with a professional. It sounds like Wit never wants to be vulnerable to another human who may HURT HIM. So where does this fear of hurt come from? What happened in your relationship with your parents, or am I way off the mark?

Who betrayed your trust at an early age?

 

Yes, thats an old chestnut around here.

 

There are three of us, brothers. My parents were good parents. The three of us boys are all very different. I was the son who came home with black eyes and split lips, my mother would go ballistic, but my dad would only smile and ask me if I had started it. I never did. I remember him saying to me many times "Never let them look down on you, stand up for yourself". Who 'they' were I am not sure.

 

When I was a teenager my parents decided to go home. Leaving me where they previously lived. My younger brother only discovered that I was left against my will recently, he seemed deeply shocked, and said "That explains a lot......why you are like you are".

 

My older brother was outraged that our parents did that. He offered to take me in to his house, he lived in Africa at that time and I didn't fancy that.

 

I was indentured at the time, how old does that make me look, and my father insisted that, for my own good, I finish my term. He was right, I traveled the world and earned a lot of money in that 'trade'.

 

I harboured a lot of resentment over that for a very long time. Feeling that they abandoned me. I see now that my father was right, I needed to study and work and pass my exams and grow up. He just threw me in at the deep end, because he was sure I could do it, and I did.

 

If I were to use that stuff again, I used it in the past to explain to myself why I am like this, it would just be going over dead ground. I can't blame my father for being who and what he was. He taught me the value of being strong, of never flinching in the face of difficulties, of looking every other man in the eye, of being me. I could have learned more from my mother about being loving and warm, she didn't want to leave me. I begged my father to stay, I could afford to support the family. He hated that, seeing me in tears begging him to stay. I think that actually hurt him. He expected me to do as he did in his difficult life, stand silently and accept what was happening because there was nothing I could have done to stop it anyway.

 

His view of 'standing up for yourself' was never showing weakness, I only ever saw him cry once, when his estranged sister died. His youth was pure unadulterated hell. Its a long story. But I won't use that as an excuse, a lot of the things he showed me have proved to be useful over the years.

 

At my age I feel as though I should have the wisdom to understand, at least my own past actions. I am very aware of how things influence us as we grow.

 

Perhaps I put too much emphasis on certain traits, valuing them more than is necessary and less on others. I seem to value the confrontation resolution skills, not realising, up until now that confrontation doesn't have to be resolved with one side winning and the other losing. It is not a black and white situation. I tended to resolve conflict in a sudden and total fashion, no quarter given or requested. One of us will win and one of us will lose. I am intensely competitive.

 

With that in mind it doesn't seem odd that I would keep my thoughts and feelings to myself.

 

It is powerful mindset in certain situations, but perhaps not in inter-personal relationships with your partner. I do have a caring side thats all soft and fuzzy, but I hide it.

 

Maybe I should just let it out for a while and see what happens......

 

This post has rambled on a bit I know that, its a little like 'thinking on to paper'........

[witabix]

But that's what all the WAS say isn't it? "If you hadn't done X Y Z, if you had of done X Y Z, I would still love you", "it's your fault I am leaving, you were X Y Z" so basically it's your fault they left. That is how it feels form the BS's perspective, not only are you in pain from missing your spouse, from still loving your spouse, you are in constant pain from knowing it was your fault and you deserved it. I was bad, not up to scratch, worthless, therefore I was punished.

 

The truth of it is that I believe that is what is aimed at, engendering exactly those feelings.

[You Go Girl]

Somewhere in the psyche of a 'walker' is a wall. A wall that surrounds you. You never let anyone in. You guard it, fix it, patrol it. You feel alone, all the time. It doesn't matter how close someone comes, you keep watching.

 

You never open the door to come out to really talk to anyone, to let someone know how you feel. Its too dangerous out there, they will just brush you off or use your weakness to hurt you. So you live your whole life, protecting yourself.

 

From what? I never asked myself that question until recently. I think it may be a case of never trusting anyone or never showing weakness, this leads into thinking that says, 'she never loved me anyway', 'she is going leave, I better get out first' and it is totally regardless of the facts. I can see in hindsight that my fears come from within, not without. I am afraid of something in myself, but I don't know what. Either that or it is some kind of super-pride thing, I am still in the process of realising what is going on inside me.

 

.

Time for a leap of faith in you. You will never know how greatly you can love until you give someone the power to hurt you, be vulnerable, be emotionally naked.

Now you don't just jump with that leap onto anybody, whew, I can speak there that that can be a huge mistake. Not anybody, but somebody worthy.

I'll tell you a little secret about love that may help you. Each time you are more vulnerable, you love deeper, and even if you lose in the end and relationship falls apart, it is ok! It is worth it! You still 'come out ahead' (which seems to be one of your sticking points) because it is always better to have love and lost than not to have loved at all. -Tennyson.

If you love deeply and the relationship fails, the pain will be immense. Yet still you wouldn't trade how much better you have known love for the relief of the eventual breakup pain.

We have to learn how to love. You have started with your daughter. You probably are vulnerable to her now, as you said you are very close. Doesn't it feel wonderful?!

When the day comes that you are ready to enter a romantic relationship again, (after you have sorted all this stuff out, and not before!) but when that day comes, I think you can approach it from a different angle. Look at the person you are considering loving, and think and say to yourself--I will be vulnerable. I will be honest. I will do nothing to hurt this person. I will lay myself out there for them, be at their mercy. I see this imperfect person, and I am drawn to loving them...and I intend to love them without deceiving them in anyway.

Now you can practice this with casual dating. Catch yourself as soon as you consider some small lie. If you walk away often, surely you lie, at least you pretend that you have feelings that you don't, and hide your authentic feelings. With casual dating you can practice honesty without getting in so deep that you may hurt another person deeply. It is a homework assignment in which you practice honesty, and see just how often you consider putting up a facade and not revealing your true feelings. The assignment is to practice being naked, as you are on LS when you reveal your true deep emotions, but do it in real life.

You can do this at work too. Not be so honest that you jeapordize your job by telling your boss that his suit is a cheap piece of shyte, but little trusting honest things between coworkers, etc. Trust one step at a time. Little risks, that move on to bigger risks, as you find a particular person trustworthy.

May they turn around and fry your arse? Well of course that's a possibility. But you can learn to expand your comfort zone with trusting others and what it feels like to be vulnerable.

My point: your protective wall is not as rewarding as knocking it down. You have far more to gain from being vulnerable and experiencing deep love than you do protecting yourself behind that wall forever.

Afterall, nobody gets out of this life alive, do they?

So what do you have to lose?

[witabix]

Someone once said 'point your nose in the direction you want to go and the rest of your body will follow.'

 

I know what you mean..

 

Not emails; real letters, written in hand on paper. Express your misgivings, actions and regrets to all involved and ask for forgiveness. This may not be the cure all, but how many betrayed spouses and/or loved ones suffer with unrequited love? What these souls do with it will be up to them; don't expect anything.

 

Thought about that one alright. Soon I think.

 

Give them the gift of your innermost feelings, your heartfelt apology and put a dagger to your suffering. Life is too short to waste it in misery.

 

Yes, I don't want to give the impression of being all 'Eat, Pray, Love', or new age whiner.....your thoughts are well received.

[Simon Attwood]

No one acts in a vacuum, that is for sure, but how can we cause another to behave in such a fashion. If that were possible then it seems it would be possible to 'make' someone love you.

 

 

No one acts in a vacuum, it is true. Our behaviour is a response to our environment and experiences in the present as well as the past. Our reactions, especially if we feel threatened or in a stressfull or anxiety inducing position are very much influenced by the amygdala. When, for what ever reason, we start seeing a relationship as threatening, our response, if we are not very well emotionally regulated, is influenced by a primitive part of the brain with a very limited, preprogrammed response. These are the past experiences, strongest of which are our earliest experiences of a relationship (or lack of it) with the provider, the mother.

 

If we cannot apply an obvious reason for the sense of threat, stress or anxiety, the amygdala stimulates other parts of the brain to try and apply a reason. Often we will create or provoke conflict in order to explain to ourselves the feelings we are having. We will look for a source, and if the source isn't there, the amygdala will influence the organism to find a source even if it means creating one. We create conflict through subtle unconscious provocations and manipulations. Often, the target is picked for convenience, and has nothing to do with the true source of the feeling. The most convenient target in a relationship, is always the spouse.

 

We learn manipulation at an early age, it is one of the first things a baby learns. It's 2 primary needs are to be fed and to be cleaned and it learns that if it makes a certain noise, and if it makes this noise loud enough, it's needs are met. A person that learns to regulate itself emotionally, through loving contact with the provider, to a certain extent learns to extend themselves beyond an unconscious manipulation to get it's needs met. A person that hasn't learnt self regulation from the love of their provider, never grows out of the unconscious provocation and manipulation phase. In essence, the inner baby hasn't had it's needs met and lives on in the adult. Everyone that has experienced relationship conflict, must have, to some extent been aware that their own behaviour was being triggered, just as much as they, perhaps were aware of their behaviour triggering their partners behaviour towards them.

 

We are responsible for our behaviour? Well no, we aren't, not totally. Our behaviour is very much a response to our environment and experiences, to what is going on around us, to how other people behave towards us. Yes we have the ability to overcome our reactions and responses, this comes from the anterior cingulates ability to regulate the amygdala. But the amygdala is stimulated by cortisol, and if there is enough cortisol and it is there for long enough, then the amygdala is too stimulated for the anterior cingulate to regulate, so the anterior cingulate gives up and lets the amygdala get on with it.

 

Only the amygdala is capable of triggering such covert provocations and manipulations. The amygdala doesn't know love, to the amygdala love can become a learned threat and the amygdala will respond to love as if it is a threat because love requires vulnerability and vulnerability is intolerable to the amygdala.

 

So it is not possible to "make" someone love you because the part of the brain that has learnt the skill of manipulation has no interest in love, and in fact sees love as an enemy to it's need to be in control, to be the master of it's environment, so that it's environment holds no threat to the organism. Such is the self destructive potential of the defence mechanisms of the amygdala. Even suicide, the ultimate self destruction, has been shown to be influenced by the defence mechanism; a protection of the image of self when the reality of life threatens the destruction of that image.

 

You have taken a great, courageous, and honest step towards finding yourself witabix, but Nietzsche warned against staring in to the abyss too long, and look what it did to him.

[willowthewisp]

The truth of it is that I believe that is what is aimed at, engendering exactly those feelings.

 

Why?

 

Witabix, I beleive a book I have read may be help to you, it's called He's Scared, She's Scared by Stephen Carter. Perhaps I am way off beam but this fear of being weak, do you think maybe that could translate to a fear of allowing oneself to be vulunerable in case you then would show weakness? What I mean is, do you think you are afraid of intimacy for they will let you down, or abandon you?