Author jazzmine Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 okay you joksters, there is no $2 million, so I guess I'm up Sh*t's Creek without a paddle. RE: children, they are grown and moved out, but you are right -- it's just another excuse. No one is holding a gun to his head making him stay. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I sometimes wonder if its all about the *money*. I think if most women could support themselves and their children, they might be more apt to leave. For the men, its fear of paying out more $$$$ in child support and possible alimony. While some may say its about the children, I sometimes think it has more to do with financial co-dependency than anything else. Jazzmine, in your MM's case, he might be worried that splitting any property settlement might leave him next to nothing. And if his wife has been unemployed during most of the duration of their marriage, some courts will also award her spousal support in addition to property settlement. Particularly if she can prove infidelity on her husband's part. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jazzmine Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 EnigmaXOXO, Believe it or not, we've already had all of these discussions (he and I). He told me they got as far as talking about who would take what furniture, who's parents gave money toward the house, so who would get more when it sold, how to split his 401K, she was taking money she'd invested and made money on, etc.... He told me finances were just part of the complex picture. He was concerned about disappointing his kids, even though they've seen plenty that their parents don't do much together. Again, they are grown, but he'd heard from other people that it still has a very negative impact on them. Even though that wasn't a reason to stay in an unhappy marriage, it was one more thing leaning on his conscience. He knew there was a possibility she'd ask for alimony, but that didn't seem to be a big deterrent for him. She works, also, so money didn't seem to be the big issue here. Honestly, he said it was a bunch of reasons that were making it difficult for him to make the final break. He felt he was 100% sure of what he wanted to do, and that was to be with me, but felt a sense of obligation to at least leave there with a clear head, not running off with me, so to speak, but leaving because the marriage clearly had no happy future. He didn't want to break ties with me, but I insisted because how can he truly try to see if there is anything left with her if he's still talking to me? After reading all of the responses today, I'd love to make excuses about how much he loves me, and that he's going to leave her and be with me, but I think I'm just fooling myself by thinking that. As several people have said to me, actions speak louder than words, and if he really wanted to be with me, guilt or no guilt, he would. Do I think he's going to be happy and fulfilled staying with her? No. But do I think he has the strength and total desire to walk away from her, for WHATEVER reason? Probably not. So, whatever the reason he didn't leave, HE DIDN'T LEAVE. At this point after reading all of these postings, I think he's either a pathological liar (Lying to both of us) or just has a huge conflict between what he wants and what he thinks he deserves. I'll say it again -- if anyone reading these postings is contemplating having an affair with a married man, DON'T DO IT. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Well, if we can find anything positive to focus on, at least you're able to walk away relatively unscathed except for a wounded heart. And a narrow escape it was! Could you even imagine yourself, for one second, trading places with his poor wife? Would you really want that for yourself? You deserve far better than digging through someone else's trash looking for left-overs. If you ended up with this man, you'd spend a tortured eternity tasting and smelling another woman on his breath, constantly. Find yourself someone who is actually *good* at relationships and you'll save yourself half the trouble and heartache. One day, when you've found yourself a REAL man, you'll look back and wonder what the h*ll you were even thinking! Link to post Share on other sites
kkat Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hi Jazzmine, Sorry to hear about your situation. I think your guy is not looking to cut bait anytime soon. The reality is that he's got the same excuses my MM had for going back to his wife and children after he started his divorce and lived with me for almost 3 years, and the same excuses he now has when we got back together years later. Financial co-dependency is a huge issue, guilt, etc. And he may also, like my MM, still love his wife. Maybe he loves you also, in a different way, whatever, but my MM absolutely still loves his wife. Is she perfect? No way. But he's certainly not either. Likely the same in your case. It doesn't really matter in the end who caused what, just what is the end of the story going to be. She now realizes that regardless of why, her marriage is in serious jeopardy. She apparently intends works to revive it/save it. He either will cooperate or not, and maybe they will work it out, maybe they won't. This will not, most likely, play out quickly either way. All the while, remember, he has a list of reasons he feels are very valid (financial, guilt, kids, etc.) to stay in the marriage, and like he has with you, he has a willing and interested partner in her. Your best bet is to end things peacefully but firmly with him, and let him do what he needs to do. Hopefully in the interim you'll find someone you love who is truly available, and if/when he gets a divorce, he'll come back to you and you'll be long gone with your Prince Charming. I sure wish that was what I had done, and its what I'm in the process of working towards right now. As someone else said, nobody is literally putting a gun to the head of these MM to stay. At the end of the day, they have a choice and he has chosen not to, at this time, get a divorce. Harsh but true. Meanwhile, you sound like you know what you need to do, and good for you. By the way, I wouldn't contact his wife. You aren't going to learn anything that would affect your heart, your strategy, anything - and its just putting yourself into the drama. Good luck to you. Link to post Share on other sites
befuddled11 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by shrug Says most of people. more than 50% marriages end up with divorce. and 90% of the married couples are not happy. They stay married for all selfish reasons that labeled with "love". this girl is asking if the man would leave his wife for her, I would say he would leave if you gave him $2 Million dollar after his divorce. Can you back up your assertion that "90% of married couples are not happy"? That sounds pretty darn farfetched to me. And no offense but facts that are the result of what "most people say", I don't really buy them as being factual........sounds more like opinion to me, which is just that, an opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
befuddled11 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by jazzmine He was concerned about disappointing his kids, even though they've seen plenty that their parents don't do much together. Again, they are grown, but he'd heard from other people that it still has a very negative impact on them. Even though that wasn't a reason to stay in an unhappy marriage, it was one more thing leaning on his conscience. Now please know that the following is not in any way directed at you..........but this excerpt above, about his alleged concerns of disappointing his kids, and the potential negative impact on them (remember: his grown up kids, who no longer live at home)...... Okay...how can I say this? What a steaming pile of sh*t! So it's better that his children know he's having an AFFAIR......(cuz if his wife/their Mom knows, you can bet they know) and disrespecting THEIR MOTHER? God, the guy so priceless, he should be free. Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by befuddled11 What a steaming pile of sh*t! Would that be a 90% pile or a 100% pile! That was too funny Befuddled! I totally agree though. I didn't even pick up on the fact that he had GROWN children. DANG Jazzmine......your MM must be even a better liar than MOST of them! Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 So it's better that his children know he's having an AFFAIR......(cuz if his wife/their Mom knows, you can bet they know) and disrespecting THEIR MOTHER? Again, this is at least the SECOND affair. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jazzmine Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 Again, thank you all for your comments. Yes, he was an extremely good liar, apparantly, because I'm hearing from everyone what a steaming pile of SH*T this all is. This is the truth - I'm 46 yrs. old, and have NEVER met anyone who worked so hard to deceive me. I have also never been lied to like this by anyone, and find it inconceivable that people can really be like that - especially someone you spend so much intimiate time with, and trust. Yes, I've seen those Lifetime movies, but I didn't think it would happen to me. Anyway, thank you all for your support. It really has helped me. Link to post Share on other sites
brashgal Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Wow, if I hadn't given my ex the ultimatum to move out last summer I would have sworn you were talking about him as your MM. My ex also had two long-term affairs. Much of his behavior was quite similar - it is a lot harder than you think to decide to leave a less-than-perfect marriage. For all of you that can't believe that people stay together for more reasons than love or children - all I can say is that not everyone out there is as self-aware as the regular posters here at LS. There are many shades of gray between absolute right and absolute wrong. I believe the MM's excuse about disappointing his grown children - think of how this changes all the family dynamics if he moves out to be with Jazzmine. He can't share as readily in the holiday celebrations, with the grandkids and all the day-to-day events of extended family. Complicated with a sense of failure as his wife was a nice person but the romance had gone out of the marriage - he comes off looking like the bad guy. Some men don't want to live with that, they aren't strong enough. His wife doesn't want him to leave, they've probably known one another several DECADES (not just a couple years). It's hard to know what they agreed upon (the wife and MM) - he probably lead her to believe that Jazzmine isn't that important to him and that he wants to work on the marriage (I know this is what my ex did with me). It wasn't so much that I didn't have a sense of self-respect as I truly wanted to believe that I was still more important to him and we could work things out. I did this for 3 years. Finally, one last event caused me to say "me or her". And he moved out. And he's still with her 8 months later. But if I hadn't pushed it, I'm not sure he wouldn't have continued being the cakeman he was. C'est la vie. Link to post Share on other sites
kkat Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 From my perch, I think BrashGirl is very, very on the mark. She knows of what she speaks. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jazzmine Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 hi brashgirl, thank you for your comments, too. you are the first person who has posted on this ENTIRE thread who said the MM actually left for the other woman. I suspect he's telling her maybe there is still something, while still trying to hold on to me. (he actually tried to call me again today, so how hard is he trying to work things out with her???) Are you sorry you told him to go? would holding on to him have made you or him happy? just curious...I think she's afraid to say anything like that to him for the same reason, even though he's really treated her badly by being with me.... Link to post Share on other sites
befuddled11 Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by brashgal For all of you that can't believe that people stay together for more reasons than love or children - all I can say is that not everyone out there is as self-aware as the regular posters here at LS. There are many shades of gray between absolute right and absolute wrong. I believe the MM's excuse about disappointing his grown children - think of how this changes all the family dynamics if he moves out to be with Jazzmine. He can't share as readily in the holiday celebrations, with the grandkids and all the day-to-day events of extended family. I'm certainly not trying to disrespect your view on this, but as to the above, I say BS. How must the family dynamics be, and the atmosphere at family gatherings be when surely everyone in the family knows the dude is a cheating, lying sack of horse manure? I have a hard time believing that family (in terms of holiday celebrations, family gatherings, visits with grandchildren, etc) wouldn't be a helluva lot more disappointed in the MM due to the fact that they all know he's cheating on his wife........versus him coming clean and being man enough to end the marriage officially. You don't think it's already really awkward at these family gatherings, when there's likely a huge buzz going on behind the scenes like "wow, I can't believe Uncle Dick is cheating on Aunty Marge" or "God, I can't believe he thinks nobody knows." Never in a million years will I be able to logically understand how a MM can feel that living a freaking farce of a life is going to be less disappointing to his children and family who already KNOW he's a cheater, than being honest and true and real and just cutting the ties and getting a divorce. Sorry, ain't buyin' it. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jazzmine Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 befuddled11, I think you are right. But I also think there is a huge amount of "looking the other way" going on by all parties. "If we don't talk about it, it's not really going on..." I agree with you about getting the truth out and stop living a lie. Wish I could have convinced him of that. Nobody is better off for this, and his kids DO know about us and the woman prior to me. Link to post Share on other sites
brashgal Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Befuddled11 - believe it or not, cheating is not looked upon by everyone as the end of the world, especially if put in the right light. Abandoning your family is higher up on the list of stuff you shouldn't do for some. I hate to make sweeping generalizations - it all depends upon the family. And everyone wouldn't know he was a lying sack if they weren't told - only the wife would know. It doesn't necessarily get around to everyone and even if a few folks find out, they are willing to keep the secret to keep family harmony. It's called loyalty. Again, not everyone in the world is as self-aware and as self-righteous as you have been in your post (and trust me, I know from self-righteous - ask jester or a few others I've let loose on). In some families this stuff gets swept under the rug, everyone is much more comfortable not dealing with any new SOs who used to be mistresses, etc, etc. Jazzmine - no, we are much better being apart than being together. I couldn't continue to share him. I made it clear that I was not going to be the OW either - he tried calling me and chatting me up after we split, I told him I wouldn't do to her what she had done to me (provide additional emotional support). I do still have kids at home and that is about the only thing we talk about now. I miss sharing things with him, even though he felt all the romance was gone (by the way we still had sex 2-3x per week) we still called each other a few times a day to check in or share something funny. That's the hardest part, the loss of intimacy - he was an important person in my life for a long time. I do hope things work out with the OW - they've meshed their families (she had kids), they do a lot of stuff together. I'd hate to have my youngest son have to go through any more trauma of another family split. Link to post Share on other sites
kkat Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 believe it or not, cheating is not looked upon by everyone as the end of the world, especially if put in the right light. Abandoning your family is higher up on the list of stuff you shouldn't do for some. Speaking from my situation, Brashgal's comments above are absolutely true. My MM's wife and other members of his family felt that his cheating, leaving his wife and kids for me, living with me for 2+ years, starting a divorce -- was all forgiveable. But actually divorcing was the cardinal sin. I know 3 other triangles (people I know personally) that have panned out the same way - it was the elephant in the room no one talked about - but actually divorcing was never persued and was considered by the wife and the MM to be absolutely beyond consideration! In all three instances (in 2 instances I know the betrayed wife, in one, I know the OW), the wife just swept it under the rug, waited it out (2 years, 3 years, 15 years --not kidding). And that's what happened with my MM and his wife. Factors that played into my situation, and the three I've been exposed to, included religion; guilt; "appearances" in the community (yes I know its ridiculous but some people actually think they look OK if they are married and in contrast, appear horrid if they are divorced);money, money, money; kids; retirement security; summer houses; friends (not wanting to "divorce" friends); inlaws, etc. And did I mention money? At the end of the day, I think there are many old-schoolers out there who believe that cheating on your wife/spouse is not as bad as leaving her/him. Link to post Share on other sites
kkat Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Never in a million years will I be able to logically understand how a MM can feel that living a freaking farce of a life is going to be less disappointing to his children and family who already KNOW he's a cheater, than being honest and true and real and just cutting the ties and getting a divorce. Sorry, ain't buyin' it. I wanted to add that I also agree with the above - it IS crap - absolutely. But still, there are people (MM) who believe that living the farce is better than getting the divorce. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jazzmine Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 Thank you so much, all of you for your comments and shared experiences. He's been trying to see me for the past two days, and I've been able to turn the tables on him, over the phone, calling him on every lie he tries to tell me. BUSTED!!! He keeps trying to hold on to me, while his latest claim -- he says he's staying there just long enough to repair some of the damage he's done so he can leave without them hating each other. Another classic, right? I'm sure his wife would love to hear that he's staying just long enough for her to get somewhat comfortable again, then he's planning to pull the rug out from under her. Whatever, the reality is, reading and writing all of these posts, I was able to say "NO THANKS" to anything more from him. And I made sure he felt nice and uncomfortable about what he's doing -- (thank you everyone for the words I needed to say). I told him he obviously had no respect for her or me to even be trying to see me, while still lying to and living with her. Just before we hung up, I told him to go home and take a good hard look at his wife, and realize that's who he's choosing to be with, so he better make it right, or go. The days just click by, and none of us are getting any younger. I choose to LIVE my life, not just exist with someone. He can stay where he is and find some other fool to believe his lies. Brashgal, that is shocking that you say you still made love 2-3x/wk. He tells me he sleeps in another room entirely. They haven't had sex for 16 months. Again, whatever, I know I've been lied to and I know I won't be anymore. That's the important thing -- I'm moving on. Link to post Share on other sites
saintfrancis Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by jazzmine Brashgal, that is shocking that you say you still made love 2-3x/wk. He tells me he sleeps in another room entirely. They haven't had sex for 16 months. My ex-MM told me the same thing. I have no proof whether it's true or not. So, I guess it could be. But, I find it interesting that someone else is saying the same thing to you. I wonder how many of them say they sleep in another room.... and in how many instances is it really true? I do know of cases where it is true, but that arrangement only lasted for a short time before they resumed sleeping in the same bed. Link to post Share on other sites
brashgal Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 It seems that my ex did not have affairs so he could have more sex (although he did admit once that he did like the variety). It had more to do with his need for constant attention. He is a person who is never truly happy with work (supposedly he works with idiots and he's worked at a number of different places, I am truly amazed at how many idiots there are) - needed to vent about that constantly. We were both very busy with more-than-fulltime jobs, two kids, lots of housework and yard work and divergent schedules (he worked weekends). I went through a major depression, finally got on thyroid meds and antidepressants but by the time I was recovering he was already a year into an affair with the wife of a former coworker. I sometimes wonder if I had found out earlier before they got so attached to one another if it would have made a difference. I don't think he was ever serious about leaving me for her, she had several kids and a complicated family life. We went through counselling several times, I thought we were getting closer again, we still had issues though. It just seemed like she was getting all the good stuff, the sharing of the hopes, dreams, love and i was getting leftovers - did you feed the dogs? What do we do with kid #2? etc... He got involved in a volunteer group with my older son and I think was getting over OW1 and then he met OW2. She also had several kids, was a stay at home mom and a super-volunteer in a bunch of groups. Who would have thunk it? She poured all her attention to the volunteer group, attended every meeting, every event - her husband stayed home with the kids. On his day off during the week they sometimes did shopping or some activity in support of the volunteer group - something I could rarely do with a traditional M-F, 9-5 job (which paid 2/3 of the bills by the way). I rarely attended meetings or events (someone had to stay home with the kids and the animals). I found out what was happening a lot faster the second time around. He even moved out for a few months but had a horrible attack of conscience and started courting me all over again. He still saw her at volunteer activities though - maybe if one of them had left the group there would have been a chance. She just made up her mind that he was the one for her, her husband gave her the first ultimatum, he finally filed for divorce. About a month later I saw my ex's cel phone bill - realized her was spending every spare minute talking to her, far more than he was talking to me and I knew I just couldn't live the same way anymore. As I said, they're still together although not living together yet. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jazzmine Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 Hi Brashgal, Thanks for writing back again. I'm sorry for you things didn't work out with your husband, but from the sound of things, you are probably better off. (I sure hope so) The MM I was involved with says his wife has seen all of his cell phone bills, which of course show the same thing -- he's constantly calling me and talking to me. He also had dinner with me every day after work, which went into the evening (8-9ish), and has spent quite a few nights with me. Sad for both of them -- they are two people who choose not to deal with the real-life issues, but instead live in their own little worlds, I guess. I also suppose he does a lot of lying to her -- he certainly had me fooled a lot, so I'm sure he is able to charm her the same way. How many places can he say he is when she knows about me, and has seen his cell phone bills, and found e-mails between us...as I said in an earlier posting -- there is a lot of looking the other way going on in that relationship. This guy spent so much time with me everyone knows him as my boyfriend - my family, neighbors, people at work, etc. No one would have a clue he actually had a wife at home. That's how much time he spends with me. Regardless of what happens down the line, I can't imagine under any circumstances that there's too much going on at home with her, since I know first-hand he doesn't spend time there, and I know what their work schedules are, so I know how little time they are actually together. For her sake, I hope she wises up and takes a good look at how lousy he is treating her -- I'm sure she doesn't deserve it. I think he really needs professional help. He acts like he's all confused, but I think he's dumb like a fox, you know??!! He knows EXACTLY what he's doing. And you mentioned your husband needing a lot of attention -- I told him that today when he called me -- I said you love having two women fight over you, and two women to sleep with -- you probably never had so much attention in your life. His comment was, well it's negative attention -- and I said whatever -- you are getting attention however you can get it. Brashgal I hope to get back on in a few weeks and post that I'm doing great and I'm over this mess. I'll be fine, and this website has been a lifesaver. Best of luck to you with everything. Link to post Share on other sites
kjblondie Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Jazzmine: I just wanted you to know that I am right where you are right now and I can definitely relate. I have been having an affair with a MM for about 11 months now and have told him 3 days ago that it is over. I know that he loves me. I am just like you .... I can't figure it out. I ask myself the same question .... will he leave her for me. If you would like to know more about my situation just let me know. I will tell you this .... it's a sad and crazy place to be and if anyone would have told me a year ago that I would be involved with a married man I would never have believed it. It just happened! KJ Link to post Share on other sites
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