SG Update

[turnstone]

SG, thanks And I'm kinda smug that you wouldn't know which box to put me in Also, I know you don't subscribe to the OW vs BS scenario.

 

I can understand that the conundrum of being a skeptic but trusting the MM, is disconcerting. What does your instinct tell you about this guy?

 

Also, do you mind answering why their failed sex life is too personal to talk about? It seems a common enough reason here for men to go outside their marriages, and sex or lack of it, isn't a grisly subject, so I'm wondering why you feel its too personal.

[jj33]

Turnstone this is a public forum and all posts are accessible via internet searh. Noone should be pushed to divulge details they feel are too personal.

[Silly_Girl]

SG, thanks And I'm kinda smug that you wouldn't know which box to put me in Also, I know you don't subscribe to the OW vs BS scenario.

 

This made me smile.

 

I can understand that the conundrum of being a skeptic but trusting the MM, is disconcerting. What does your instinct tell you about this guy?

 

Oh god, my instinct tells me to be very wary but yes I trust him. He is humble, and shy, and self-deprecating. He doesn't brag or make me feel as though he's attempting to convince me of anything. We initially were friends, online, and I was always adamant I would never meet him or see him or anything. We shared a lot, he had no reason to lie, no reason to paint things a certain way. And vice versa. And in time, I will admit, some things, with the additional info time has allowed, are very slightly different to what he told me - oh it's hard to explain and I can't think of anything offhand (so it's not big at all), but the picture he painted initially has merely widened and nothing AT ALL has made me think he is in any way anything but as honest as he can be with me.

 

I may well be mocked for saying that here, but it's how I feel and what I believe. And I have given it a LOT of thought. I've tried to convince myself he's lying. I've spoken to my best friend and thrown things up in the air and then argued the opposite to what I (think I) know. It doesn't work. I'm as sure as I can be.

 

Also, do you mind answering why their failed sex life is too personal to talk about? It seems a common enough reason here for men to go outside their marriages, and sex or lack of it, isn't a grisly subject, so I'm wondering why you feel its too personal.

 

Sex life. They don't have one, never have. Some posters have asked me to go in to detail and prove why I believe that, because it is so very unusual for a couple to have not had a sex life and so it immediately leads reasonably-minded people to assume it's all lies. The very private details of their failed attempts, or their wedding night (which breaks my heart), etc, are not things I wish to post about. Likewise other 'indicators' that helped me build up a picture. So it leaves posters thinking I'm just kidding myself, as opposed to me having satisfied MYself of the truth, if you see what I mean.

[turnstone]

Turnstone this is a public forum and all posts are accessible via internet searh.

You don't say!

Noone should be pushed to divulge details they feel are too personal.

No one can be forced to do anything of the sort.

 

Oh god, my instinct tells me to be very wary but yes I trust him. He is humble, and shy, and self-deprecating. He doesn't brag or make me feel as though he's attempting to convince me of anything. We initially were friends, online, and I was always adamant I would never meet him or see him or anything. We shared a lot, he had no reason to lie, no reason to paint things a certain way. And vice versa. And in time, I will admit, some things, with the additional info time has allowed, are very slightly different to what he told me - oh it's hard to explain and I can't think of anything offhand (so it's not big at all), but the picture he painted initially has merely widened and nothing AT ALL has made me think he is in any way anything but as honest as he can be with me.

 

I may well be mocked for saying that here, but it's how I feel and what I believe. And I have given it a LOT of thought. I've tried to convince myself he's lying. I've spoken to my best friend and thrown things up in the air and then argued the opposite to what I (think I) know. It doesn't work. I'm as sure as I can be.

Ok, to my mind, your first line was the most pertinent. I see the rest of these two paragraphs as defending him and your decision. I understand that I'm reading it through eyes that have a bias, whatever that may mean - good or bad, and I see you saying all the things I said to defend my ex husband.

 

You're obviously a bright lady and street smart too. I would think your instincts are worth trusting. And I'm not saying the rest of what you say is wrong, delusional, blah. Ok?

 

Sex life. They don't have one, never have. Some posters have asked me to go in to detail and prove why I believe that, because it is so very unusual for a couple to have not had a sex life and so it immediately leads reasonably-minded people to assume it's all lies. The very private details of their failed attempts, or their wedding night (which breaks my heart), etc, are not things I wish to post about. Likewise other 'indicators' that helped me build up a picture. So it leaves posters thinking I'm just kidding myself, as opposed to me having satisfied MYself of the truth, if you see what I mean.

Ok SG, thanks for explaining that. And yeah, I do see what you mean.

 

More questions! (Sorry SG). Is the failed sex life to do with her or him? Because if its to do with her, how you do feel about the fact that the MM shared those details with you? No judgement here, just asking.

 

How do you feel about him leaving her and moving in with you for the weekends? For you, personally? Have you had enough time to reflect on the change in dynamic?

[jennie-jennie]

More questions! (Sorry SG). Is the failed sex life to do with her or him? Because if its to do with her, how you do feel about the fact that the MM shared those details with you? No judgement here, just asking.

 

When you move on to a new relationship, that's what you do: share details of your old one including the sex life. It is a way to work through the old relationship and leave it behind you in the past where it belongs.

 

I know this must sound strange to the BSs still in the marriage, not aware that the MP has emotionally moved on, but that is how it functions. Extramarital relationships are not different from other relationships in that regard.

[Silly_Girl]

You're obviously a bright lady and street smart too. I would think your instincts are worth trusting. And I'm not saying the rest of what you say is wrong, delusional, blah. Ok?

 

No, I get you. There's a fine line round some of this stuff, and it's easy to get caught up in knots.

 

More questions! (Sorry SG). Is the failed sex life to do with her or him? Because if its to do with her, how you do feel about the fact that the MM shared those details with you? No judgement here, just asking.

 

Er... she said they would have sex after marriage, and his upbringing wasn't ALL that different from that stance. So he accepted it. But that wasn't what happened.

 

Without going in to details she had an initial therapy session, but refused to return. It's just not on her agenda. He is now at the stage where he says he finds her attractive, but not sexually. There's nothing. Their dynamic is very mother-son, sister-brother, as far as he's concerned there is now nothing that could happen that could change that.

 

When she returned from moving out for a year to be with her MM she made it clear that reconciling would NOT include sexual activity.

 

How do you feel about him leaving her and moving in with you for the weekends? For you, personally? Have you had enough time to reflect on the change in dynamic?

 

It suits me. I very much value my time with my son. I would struggle, I think, if someone were to move in full-time now. We were doing every other weekend. It will move to every weekend. It gives me during the week for my work (I work a lot in the evenings), and time for my lad's homework and the rubbish comedy tv my boy and I love, and our loud music in the mornings when we clean our teeth. All our routines. And at weekends we can all hang out, or I can go and do stuff with my boy and MM can play golf/watch sport etc, but we'll still get quality time.

 

It works for me personally and I also think it gives him (MM) space during the week to do what he wants, and to think, well away from me, his wife, anyone really. Some processing time, I guess.

 

And my lad is JUST starting to socialise a lot more, he's nearly 14 so there's more sleepovers and more trips in to town for a burger, that sort of thing, so he wants me slightly less at weekends now than he did, say, a year ago.

 

MM and I have obviously done all the talking of how we envisage things to be when we do live together proper. The space each of us needs/would like, the fact he's never lived with children in the house before, the fact I'm a terrible cook

 

If it were just me I'd have no problem with him moving right in with me tomorrow. I am that certain. But I think this is a good balance for us, given jobs and money and all the rest of it. To be fair, and this is going to sound callous, but most of the time he's at home he's thinking of me, texting me etc; mentally he's really not at home with his wife. I think that him moving out will be a good thing for him, ease some of the pressure and allow him to see things from a more balanced viewpoint.

 

I haven't ruled out that in a years time he and her may decide they're absoutely perfect for one another after all (unlikely perhaps) and that they may decide to do the whole reconciliation thing. But I'm happy that, for now, I'm making the right choices based on what I know today. Obviously I think we have a really fantastic future ahead or I'd never have invested as much as I have.

[jennie-jennie]

But I'm happy that, for now, I'm making the right choices based on what I know today. Obviously I think we have a really fantastic future ahead or I'd never have invested as much as I have.

 

This is so important. To trust the present and not second-guess yourself. To dare to believe that things might turn out alright.

[turnstone]

SG, thanks so much taking the time to explain this. I'm sorry for any offense I give in my next comments, but I'm trying to understand this dynamic. How come she moved out for a year to be with another man? Is sex just off the agenda her husband? As she made it clear that she wasn't going to have sex with him when she came back, and as sex is important to him and he doesn't find her sexually attractive anyway, why did he take her back?

 

I really like what you say about him moving out giving his mindstate more balance. I think that is very true and I think its wise, not only for your relationship with your son and your relationship with MM, but for you personally, not to have him move in lock stock straight away.

 

But I'm happy that, for now, I'm making the right choices based on what I know today.

And no one can say fairer than that.

[Silly_Girl]

More questions! (Sorry SG). Is the failed sex life to do with her or him? Because if its to do with her, how you do feel about the fact that the MM shared those details with you? No judgement here, just asking.

QUOTE]

 

Think I sort of missed this with my waffling.

 

He's never been unkind about her. He has always reasoned and understood her behaviour, in fact, and I try not to go in to this too much, but he's been bullied and has been quite scared to do anything other than carry almost all the responsibility for anything and everything that has gone wrong. He only recently started to accept that their relationship may be even REMOTELY like that. That's been hard to watch.

 

So he has shared facts, basic facts, but not from a point of view of making himself seem superior, or a victim. Yes, sometimes they are personal to her, but he does not tell me everything about, for example, her feelings or her actions. He tells me enough that I understand, and I really do not wish to pry. The things I have wanted to understand all relate to HIM. How HE ended up so unhappy, why HE accepted X or Y, not conversations about his wife per se. Again, I am finding this hard to explain (justify...?). I know I could do so over a coffee, whilst chatting, but like this I am not sure I am articulating it well.

 

Let's just say she's not, never has been, and never will be gossip fodder. I feel incredibly sad for them both. 13 years is a long time. They have struggled on, ignoring sometimes the biggest elephant in the room possible, because neither had the strength/skills/awareness to address things. I think things could have been different for them, had they been honest a lot of years ago. I don't think they will ever make a good partnership now.

 

Again, more waffling. Sorry.

[jennie-jennie]

SG, thanks so much taking the time to explain this. I'm sorry for any offense I give in my next comments, but I'm trying to understand this dynamic. How come she moved out for a year to be with another man? Is sex just off the agenda her husband? As she made it clear that she wasn't going to have sex with him when she came back, and as sex is important to him and he doesn't find her sexually attractive anyway, why did he take her back?

 

Just being curious here, and of course you don't have to answer, SG. But that year when the wife left for the MOM, was that also a totally sexless relationship? No wonder the MOM stayed put then.

[Silly_Girl]

SG, thanks so much taking the time to explain this. I'm sorry for any offense I give in my next comments, but I'm trying to understand this dynamic. How come she moved out for a year to be with another man? Is sex just off the agenda her husband? As she made it clear that she wasn't going to have sex with him when she came back, and as sex is important to him and he doesn't find her sexually attractive anyway, why did he take her back?

 

I know. It's confusing. MM is sure his wife's relationship with her MM WAS sexual. But the MM went back to his wife and the relationship ended (although just this weekend it transpired that is not what happened and MM's wife came back because she didn't think he could cope with looking after himself if she left him... ). When she returned she made it clear she could not give up her friendship with MM. He means a lot to her. He seems to be her closest friend (she is very shy). She is distressed if they have plans and he needs to cancel. That, in my book, is an emotional affair.

 

MM is embarrassed when he admits he accepted these terms. I cannot tell you the hurt I have seen in his eyes. But he was convinced that this way was the only way she could be happy, and as HE was the sole cause of his wife's unhappiness (she said) he wanted the least hassle and for her to be okay and not be crying and emotional and it to be anguish at home all the time.

 

I'm going to be brutally honest because I feel you will not judge me. I don't think she respects her husband. She cares for him, is a good 'wife' and housekeeper and friend. She is not his lover, or confidante. They are not emotionally or sexually intimate. I don't get the impression she is proud of her husband for the man he is. She jokes that she didn't need to have children - HE is her child.

 

It is NOT my place to make a call on a relationship I am not in, but I would be lying if I did not say that it has been a factor for me, that their relationship - whilst ostensibly good, a friendship, no rows, comfortable routines - is not a healthy one in my view and these problems between them have been slowly building for years and years. Since they married, in fact.

 

I really like what you say about him moving out giving his mindstate more balance. I think that is very true and I think its wise, not only for your relationship with your son and your relationship with MM, but for you personally, not to have him move in lock stock straight away.

 

And no one can say fairer than that.

 

Thank you for that.

[jennie-jennie]

I know. It's confusing. MM is sure his wife's relationship with her MM WAS sexual. But the MM went back to his wife and the relationship ended (although just this weekend it transpired that is not what happened and MM's wife came back because she didn't think he could cope with looking after himself if she left him... ). When she returned she made it clear she could not give up her friendship with MM. He means a lot to her. He seems to be her closest friend (she is very shy). She is distressed if they have plans and he needs to cancel. That, in my book, is an emotional affair.

 

WOW! They never had sex and he takes her back after believing she has had a sexual relationship with another man whom she is continuing to have contact with.

 

I am so glad he is finally getting out of there. Long overdue in my opinion.

[Mimolicious]

This is so important. To trust the present and not second-guess yourself. To dare to believe that things might turn out alright.

 

 

And some call others "fools" for doing such thing. Can't never win.

[Silly_Girl]

WOW! They never had sex and he takes her back after believing she has had a sexual relationship with another man whom she is continuing to have contact with.

 

I am so glad he is finally getting out of there. Long overdue in my opinion.

 

I know j-j. And, I swear to you, he never saw these as massive issues. They 'get along' in their 'own way', 'it's good, if unconventional'. He was convinced (I think partly through choice... it was easier and hurt less ) that no couple are ever actually happy anyway. And lots of couples stop having sex eventually right?? So.... it's not all that bad. And no one in his house punches anyone or throws plates. And they really care for each other, in their own little way. So he's actually really lucky huh? Lucky she takes care of him? Lucky to have her? To be financially and emotionally stable?

 

 

Honestly. If he read this (and he may well, I've shown him the site) he'd say it's really not that bad. But these things for me... well. They're huge.

 

But if he didn't know any different, and someone was telling him how fortunate he was... well I just don't know how he was supposed to know that he could have more. If you see what I'm saying.

[Silly_Girl]

When you move on to a new relationship, that's what you do: share details of your old one including the sex life. It is a way to work through the old relationship and leave it behind you in the past where it belongs.

 

I know this must sound strange to the BSs still in the marriage, not aware that the MP has emotionally moved on, but that is how it functions. Extramarital relationships are not different from other relationships in that regard.

 

Jennie - for some weird reason all your replies are delayed so I only see them when I return much later. really not ignoring you. Sorry.

 

But yes, the sharing of details. It sounds bad but it never felt wrong. I suppose, for MM, he was sharing (as I tried to convey in an earlier post) his experiences and feelings and she is part of that.

[jennie-jennie]

And some call others "fools" for doing such thing. Can't never win.

 

I'd rather have loved and lost than never loved at all. That is my motto.

 

Or as we say here:

It is better to listen to the string that burst than to never draw a bow.

[Ellin]

This is so important. To trust the present and not second-guess yourself. To dare to believe that things might turn out alright.

What's more... if you don't believe that things MIGHT turn out all right, you're taking away from yourself all the chances that they will.

[jennie-jennie]

What's more... if you don't believe that things MIGHT turn out all right, you're taking away from yourself all the chances that they will.

 

Yes, I have recently figured out the true meaning of NC. No Chance.

 

I never liked when you went NC when you first came here, SG. I am so glad things are looking up for you now.

[jennie-jennie]

Not really. That's usually the work that's done BEFORE you enter a new relationship.

 

From what I have read the ignition stage of falling in love gives us a unique chance to reformulate our past.

 

"The ignition state (whether of collective movements or of the personal experience of falling in love) grants us this extraordinary ability to reformulate our past.

 

By contrast, in our normal everyday life we cannot reformulate the past - we cannot touch it in any way. Our past exists intact with its disappointments, regrets, and bitterness.

 

... exactly what happens in the ignition stage of our falling in love: the past is rewritten and relegated to history. The person in love (or often both lovers together) goes back over his or her past and realizes that what happened happened the way it did because at that time he or she made certain choices, and wanted to make them, but now he or she no longer does. The past is not hidden or denied; it is simply deprived of value."

 

(Francesco Alberoni: Falling in Love and Loving)

[turnstone]

SG, thanks for doing all that clarification about the situation. All kudos to you for your attitude about this. Seriously.

 

However (you knew there was about to be one!), it doesn't make him look much of a catch. Obviously that's just my opinion and its not me that wants a relationship with him, if its all good to you, then ok.

 

Two things - I don't get how his wife is'shy, but acts aggressively and in an extrovert fashion (the whole 'there will be no sex', still having her MM in her life, acting as her husband's mother, etc.). Also, is there any chance he could also need 'mothering' when he's with you full time?

[Silly_Girl]

Hi Turnstone. I completely understand where you're coming from. It's entirely impossible to try and deconstruct their dynamic which has built up over 13 years. And 'shy' does not mean a person cannot exert pressure or assert themselves strenuously, perhaps by way of displaying signs of distress, silences, being absent, withholding affection, etc. There are some good instances I could give that would help, (it's taken me a LONG time to even begin to understand the 2 of them) but it may not translate well this way, and wouldn't be fair I don't think because it would be difficult not to give somewhat personal details.

 

As for 'Is he a good catch?'. Oh good god yes!!!!! :love: I went in to detail about this on another thread, but to try and keep it brief... Our relationship is extremely different to theirs. They will arrange activities X% of the week so as to limit time together, or things get strained. They have never faced the 'bigstuff'. They don't have sex. They share no interests outside the home (by which I mean - they watch tv together). They don't confide in each other. He's heavily encouraged to filter what he says, and to act in a certain way. And more.

 

It's because we are so different, and natural together... and the luxury of building a relationship as we did, as friends with no pressure or vested interest... we have a very different, multi-faceted relationship that we believe gives each of us what we want.

 

It's also pertinent to point out here that it matters what one considers a wife's role to be, for example... To me, a chef and cleaner does not a life partner make. A 'good wife' in some peoples' eyes is very different to my perception. Mine is not about having a set eating time or having the exact perfect shade of scatter cushion. I'm much more spiritual (he calls me a hippy - I'm so not!) and I'm a much better fit for the MM of today. He has changed and grown a lot since they met, just not - it seems - within their relationship.

 

With regards the mothering, I often joke that HE's the adult in our relationship and I'm just a teen in a woman's body!! I saw enough, previously, to convince me I wasn't simply adopting another son And how he's behaved since telling his wife, addressing things, sorting what needs sorting - he was adamant this was HIS mess and his alone and no way would it be fair to expect either his wife, or me, to get stuck in to sorting practical things etc. It's not a nice situation, certainly not one to celebrate as such, but he's really impressed me over this. After months of struggling and stressing etc, I didn't expect him to have as much direction and resolve as he's showing currently. But, time will tell. I'm not wanting to list 'counting chickens' as one of my favourite pastimes just yet.

[Silly_Girl]

Yes, I have recently figured out the true meaning of NC. No Chance.

 

I never liked when you went NC when you first came here, SG. I am so glad things are looking up for you now.

 

I know Jennie. I did it with the best of intentions but I see it definitely didn't work for me. It DID however give me a bit of a shake. I had, what I term now, as a 'crisis' and it meant I sought counselling and have dealt with/am dealing with all sorts of other things and I've benefitted lots from that.

[turnstone]

Don't be too quick to dismiss the role of 'wife'. I think its as varied as there are the number of marriages. You're certainly unique and I don't deny how special and one of a kind you are, but so is every other woman out there

 

Ok, you know what? All my questions and theories are about understanding the situation and giving my impressions from what I read. Any advice I offer is offered with the intention of helping you, not furthering any agenda I may have as OW or BS. I appreciate you going over what's probably old ground for you, and helping me see your point of view in a way that's not only articulate but with no axe to grind. Thank you.

 

I want this to work for you, and not just because I like the way you handle yourself . I think you're intelligent, have a great attitude, good intentions and I believe you genuinely have no need or want to see the wife hurt. I still don't think he's good enough for you, but if you're happy with him, that's all that matters. Sending you the best of vibes

[Silly_Girl]

Don't be too quick to dismiss the role of 'wife'. I think its as varied as there are the number of marriages. You're certainly unique and I don't deny how special and one of a kind you are, but so is every other woman out there

 

Turnstone, I didn't intend to sound dismissive of those things... As much as I like to ham it up in my persona of Ice Queen, Career Woman and Party Girl I'm a Cancerian and being a homemaker is something I've accepted as being a part of me. In fact, feeding my man (and my boy!!) is one of the most rewarding aspects of my life. Not that I'd ever admit that at work!!

 

I guess those comments are because of the journey I've been on with MM. It took him by surprise to find out just how much another person can give. It was part of his... denial. I can see her motivation for this, but his wife had spent a long time asserting what a wonderful wife she is because she cooks lovely meals and the house looks as though no one lives there, and she reminds him of things he needs to do (the consensus was that he simply could not continue to function were she not there to oversee things...). It's how they avoided the fact there was no affection, passion, sex, or emotional intimacy. That was their coping mechanism - to celebrate what they DID have (a super-clean house and three holidays a year) rather than lament - or work on?? - what they DIDN'T have. But eventually (inevitably?) this approach took its toll and one of them started getting their emotional needs met elsewhere and fell in love.

 

Ok, you know what? All my questions and theories are about understanding the situation and giving my impressions from what I read. Any advice I offer is offered with the intention of helping you, not furthering any agenda I may have as OW or BS. I appreciate you going over what's probably old ground for you, and helping me see your point of view in a way that's not only articulate but with no axe to grind. Thank you.

 

I want this to work for you, and not just because I like the way you handle yourself . I think you're intelligent, have a great attitude, good intentions and I believe you genuinely have no need or want to see the wife hurt. I still don't think he's good enough for you, but if you're happy with him, that's all that matters. Sending you the best of vibes

 

Turnstone, I've really enjoyed our exchange, and the fact you've not judged or put a slant on anything. And I really appreciate the good vibes. Thank you

[KarmasTestDummy]

Yes, I have recently figured out the true meaning of NC. No Chance.

 

I never liked when you went NC when you first came here, SG. I am so glad things are looking up for you now.

 

Can you explain your rationality for that? I just recently chose NC for my sanity....but the fear of giving up my chances by staying out of sight out of mind worries me' too. I just don't want to hold up his progress. Keeping me there a his beckon call to fulfill both his sexual and emotional needs means it's easy to be complacent. While I would never give him an ultimatum, in a way now he has to choose knowing if he wants to be with me' again he better approach me' only when he has made substantial progress and able to be with me outside of our secret life.