Being judgmental.

[OWoman]

OWoman, I'm not attacking you, but I have to say that I have never personally seen you clarify these points when others have used you as an example of a success. I'm almost certain that I've seen you even post in "success" oriented threads about your own experiences. Achievement is a synonym for success, isn't it?

 

"Being praised for managing to marry a MM" is a very different thing to considering your own A to have had a successful outcome - ie, both participants get what they want out of the R, whatever that is. I have had many successful As - some of which ended because I got bored and dumped the MM, and one which ended with us wanting to M, and doing it.

 

The post I objected to did not refer to OWs whose As had successful outcomes - which would include many others, not only those who M their MM - it referred to OWs who "managed to M a MM" as though that is what all OWs (including myself, since I was referenced by name) set out to do, and that when we "manage" to do so, we are "praised" and "deified" by other OWs. That is a completely fallacious assertion and one I could not distance myself from strongly enough!

[OWoman]

Not that it's on topic at all --- but I won't shop at Wal-Mart.

 

We don't have Wal-Mart here, but I also rather pay extra for Fairtrade. Growing up in the "third world" and being a trade unionist and an activist has given me principles I won't compromise - even if it means eating less chocolate as a result

[OWoman]

That's because they talk out of both sides of their mouths. THEY LIE. They go home minimize the affair beg the wife for forgiveness go to mc all the while telling the owhe's just trying to calm little wifey down while he continues his affair.

 

SOME may well. But to claim all do would also be erroneous.

 

I must confess, I don't know any MM IRL who have done that. I know a couple who did ask for forgiveness after DDay, packed themselves off for IC and MC and gave their M their best shot; and I know of one who moved out "to sort himself out" and oscillated between BW and OW for ages before his BW gave him an ultimatum and he moved back home, cut all contact with the OW and they're happier together than before; and I know of several others who left the M (some went on to M the fOWs, others not). All were honest post D-Day, none tried to string both women along duplicitously (the one who oscillated, did it openly) and none tried to minimise the A. I'm sure the people I know well enough - friends, family and colleagues - are not a representative sample of all kinds of MM out there in the general population, but if the norm was for them to lie after DDay then I would expect to know at least one such in amongst the dozens of other kinds of MMs I know. Surely, statistically, that would be likely?

[silktricks]

I wonder if OW tend to be more compassionate and understanding towards others since they have seen themselves and their lovers do things that are considered morally wrong?

 

And by the same token BS tend to be more judgmental since they have not done things that are considered morally wrong?

 

Sometimes making a mistake here and there makes you more humble.

 

I wonder if BS are more compassionate and understanding towards others since they have seen and forgiven their former WS, spending many days and nights suffering in agony and living through the agony their former WS feels over what they have done.

 

And by the same token OW tend to be more judgmental since they live their lives in a smaller set of circumstances, not experiencing the pain the BS and WS often suffer.

 

See how silly it sounds?

 

Neither BS or OW are more compassionate OR more judgmental as a group. Certain individuals who just happen to be BS or OW are more compassionate. Certain individuals happen to be more judgmental.

[greengoddess]

Pretty common where I grew up too. As a 15 year old girl I woudn't have looked at a guy who wasn't at least mid 20s... None of us would have. We wanted men, not little boys who were still into jerking off over magazine pictures and giggling when they saw a naked woman.

 

When my daughter was 15, she was involved with a 23 year old man. I didn't for one minute think he was too old - OTC, he seemed very immature compared to her, but she soon outgrew him and moved on. Not every 15 year old girl is still playing Barbies and listening to the Spice Girls. Some are actually pretty mature.

 

I am going to politely bow out of this now. As the mother of a 15 year old I am very sad reading this. I can't even describe how overwhelmingly sad this makes me. I am happy I have provided my daughter with a carefree enough life that she did not feel it was necessary to grow up too soon. We are worlds apart in our thinking. I can really see that now after this post and further discussion will accomplish nothing.

[silktricks]

Since I do not post, or even read over on infidelity, then I am not subject to the double standard to which you are implying OW post with. I left infidelity a long time ago, because that is supposed to be a place of healing for BS. Despite the fact that I was a BS far longer than I have been an OW; I and my advice and compassion are unwelcomed there. So i stay away.

 

If my presence there would be helpful, I would post there, but my OW status nullifies 15 years of BW status. So be it.

 

And as to what the Good Book says, I can only hope that I am judged according to how I have judged. If so, I will be judged fairly and with an open heart. I am okay with that.

 

FA, everyone is welcome to post anywhere on LS, that is the beauty of this site. I do not know what happened that made you feel unwelcome on the Infidelity site, but it is a pity if you feel that way.

 

As a former BS, the best information and most helpful posts I got were from OW.

 

However, what has been claimed here (not in this post, but in this thread) that BS do not get treated badly on the Infidelity site is really not true.

 

I was castigated by a number of posters (most of whom no longer post here, but some who still do) for choosing to forgive my husband and remain married. They reviled me, and made me so incredibly angry sometimes. It was extremely hurtful.

 

Did I bring some of it upon myself? Possibly. I don't go back and read my own old posts, but I know that I was not myself at the time. I was in a lot of pain and had a lot of anger. Though I first came to LS for information, the fact is that as I read some of the posts of some of the OW, it not only didn't help me, it made things much worse. But as I continued posting and continued reading I regained my equilibrium.

 

Some people are just hateful. They can be hateful here or on other anonymous websites in ways they cannot afford to be IRL. (Though it probably leaks out there, too.)

 

I don't presume to assume what GreenGoddess' motivation was for posting, but I will say that it resonated for me. I have experienced what she was posting about. I have DEFINITELY felt judged by many OW, just as I have felt ridiculed. I don't think that every OW, though, is "bitter". Some are. Some BS are "bitter". Many are not. BS don't like receiving a knee-jerk reaction of "bitter BS" anymore than OW like receiving a knee-jerk reaction of "you're a <xxxxxx>". Do I agree that the latter is more offensive than the former? Your darn-tootin' I do. I think that latter is crude and rude and pretty much whatever other epithet you'd like to add. But, that doesn't mean the former is not also rude.

 

That was why I ended up reading this thread. There is a double-standard. I just don't think that only OW own it.

[Lizzie60]

gg.. it all depends on each particular situation.

 

Some girls are extremely mature for their age.. it's even scary..

My daughter had her very first bf at the age of 18... he was 38. I almost went nuts when she told me.. but I knew her, she was a loner, very mature (almost too mature) for her age.. extremely intelligent... I totally trusted her.. I didn't have much choice, did I?

 

This guy was smart, attractive, very rich and head over heels in love with her.. she dumped him about two years later cause he was trying to control her.. I was proud of her.. no MAN would control her.. or tell her what to do or not do.. She has travelled the world.. done volunteer work in Bangladesh and Philippines (for a total of over 13 months)... she is amazingly beautiful and smart.. now living with her bf (12 years now) they have 2 beautiful children (my treasures)... she is happy.

 

I can understand your point of view.. 15 is very young.. but we have to trust the education we have provided them.. and most of all.. we KNOW them..

[Owl]

I think that there's another angle that this should be looked at.

 

What kind of man is going to take a 15 year old girl as a wife and equal partner?

 

What is he seeking when he's pursuing said 15 year old girl...regardless of her potential mental maturity?

 

I get that a 15 year old girl would be attracted to a 26 year old guy...but the concept that it's acceptable for a 26 year old guy to pursue and marry a girl that age is a bit of a different view IMHO.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I am going to politely bow out of this now. As the mother of a 15 year old I am very sad reading this. I can't even describe how overwhelmingly sad this makes me. I am happy I have provided my daughter with a carefree enough life that she did not feel it was necessary to grow up too soon. We are worlds apart in our thinking. I can really see that now after this post and further discussion will accomplish nothing.

 

I agree with you GG. Worlds apart. Thankfully. Wow!

[Lizzie60]

I think that there's another angle that this should be looked at.

 

What kind of man is going to take a 15 year old girl as a wife and equal partner?

 

What is he seeking when he's pursuing said 15 year old girl...regardless of her potential mental maturity?

 

I get that a 15 year old girl would be attracted to a 26 year old guy...but the concept that it's acceptable for a 26 year old guy to pursue and marry a girl that age is a bit of a different view IMHO.

 

Then .. you should ask all the people over 80.. this was current in their years..

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Then .. you should ask all the people over 80.. this was current in their years..

 

You're right Lizzie, parents farmed their daughters out to older men so that they no longer had to take care of them. My grandmother lived though something very similar. VERY sad. Not something we need to do in todays time when women can care for themselves and don't need to be taken care of by an established man.

[In_Repair]

I'm not just saying this because I'm an old perv who dates a much younger woman... but it seems like women do mature a lot faster than men in many many ways. My same age girlfriends were always the voice of reason for me when I was a younger man. Now in my thirties, I have no trouble relating to women in their early twenties. Not sure I could bring myself to date a teen though.

 

My mother(in her sixties) gave birth to my older brother when she was sixteen, and my father was in his mid-twenties at the time. She always told me that it was just the way they did things back then and it wasn't uncommon in her area. They were married for twenty years before he died. Today though, she says I'm crazy... my younger brother is crazy... one of my older sisters is crazy... because we all date people significantly out of our own age ranges.

[Owl]

Like I've said before...you can't force someone to see your viewpoint, no matter how much you want to sometimes.

 

Lizzie, you and I will have to agree to disagree on a large number of things. Our views of the "benefits" of infidelity, whether or not it is (or was) ok for a 26 year old man to be with a 15 year young girl, etc...

 

I don't agree with a lot of what I've read here...but I've posted my view, and discussed what I thought was pertinent. I'm with GG...enjoy the thread.

[OWoman]

However, what has been claimed here (not in this post, but in this thread) that BS do not get treated badly on the Infidelity site is really not true.

 

Perhaps I missed it - I didn't read the entire thread - but I didn't see anyone claiming that no BSs were treated badly over on Infidelity. I certainly didn't claim that - but I did argue that I've seen nothing over there (attacking BSs) to rival some of the more vicious attacks over here (on OWs, OMs and even on occasion WSs).

 

I was castigated by a number of posters (most of whom no longer post here, but some who still do) for choosing to forgive my husband and remain married. They reviled me, and made me so incredibly angry sometimes. It was extremely hurtful.

 

IMO, that is out of order. Disagreeing with someone's choices is one thing; reviling them for them is quite another.

 

And it's against the TOS, so shouldn't be tolerated.

 

Some people are just hateful. They can be hateful here or on other anonymous websites in ways they cannot afford to be IRL. (Though it probably leaks out there, too.)

 

This is true. But when someone is hateful and lashes out at someone who is hurting, they are inviting the hurting person to lash back - and then things just escalate into a flame war. That is unfair to the OP, who came for support - whether they are OW, BW or WS (or anything else).

 

I don't presume to assume what GreenGoddess' motivation was for posting, but I will say that it resonated for me. I have experienced what she was posting about. I have DEFINITELY felt judged by many OW, just as I have felt ridiculed. I don't think that every OW, though, is "bitter". Some are. Some BS are "bitter". Many are not. BS don't like receiving a knee-jerk reaction of "bitter BS" anymore than OW like receiving a knee-jerk reaction of "you're a <xxxxxx>". Do I agree that the latter is more offensive than the former? Your darn-tootin' I do. I think that latter is crude and rude and pretty much whatever other epithet you'd like to add. But, that doesn't mean the former is not also rude.

 

That was why I ended up reading this thread. There is a double-standard. I just don't think that only OW own it.

 

knee-jerk anything is usually a sign that someone has triggered. But usually instead of looking inward, people lash out. Sure, some of those external responses are justified - particularly if someone is reporting hate speech, or seeking to contain a flame war - but if people reflected before escalating, the overall temperature on the site would be a lot lower.

 

Silk - thanks for your calm, rational post. As ever.

[OWoman]

I think that there's another angle that this should be looked at.

 

What kind of man is going to take a 15 year old girl as a wife and equal partner?

 

What is he seeking when he's pursuing said 15 year old girl...regardless of her potential mental maturity?

 

I get that a 15 year old girl would be attracted to a 26 year old guy...but the concept that it's acceptable for a 26 year old guy to pursue and marry a girl that age is a bit of a different view IMHO.

 

I don't think any 15 year old of any gender should be marrying, and nor do I think 26 year old men are doing the pursuing when it comes to 15 year old girls! I certainly did the pursuing back then, and I made sure that my age didn't ever come up in conversation, so I very much doubt any of my men ever knew how old I was.

 

Any man dating a teen who looks, or clearly is, a teen, is inviting some kind of trouble. But if a mature young woman hits on him, asking to see her ID book is one sure way to make sure he's never going to get laid...

[pureinheart]

Yes, OW judge OW. OW judge BW. BW judge OW. BW judge BW. and on, and on and on, ad nauseum.

 

We all make judgement. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, without passing a judgement you are simply following mob rule, and might as well be brain dead and allow yourself to be led along like a lemming to the edge of a cliff.

 

I do judge gg's OP as having a particular intent. Just as my posts have a particular intent that you must judge. It is called conscious thought!!!

 

But I contend there is a difference between making a judgement call, and being judgmental. One is as another poster said "condemning" the other is just actively participating in your own life.

 

This is really good FA, and I think we need an LS Hall of Fame for Quotable Quotes, so that when I forget what I want to say, there is easy reference.:D:D

[NoIDidn't]

Its a shame several of my posts were deleted because they offended the sensibilities of some. I made some points that no one has made any effort to refute.

 

But its all the same that they are gone now and don't have to offend anyone.

 

GG, I appreciate and understand where you were coming from with this thread. Its a shame that I allowed a poster to annoy me to the point of responding in kind and the broader point that this knee-jerk "judgmental" label keeps coming out when the same posters denying it are the ones doing it.

 

Lizzie, we haven't always agreed on much of anything. I imagine you wonder why I would defend you and not see you any different from any other OW, considering we often disagree - but I really respect the way you handle yourself. I honestly admire the woman reflected in your posts. And, I agree with your characterization of why you are similar to other OW and leave it at that.

 

Silk, its not off-topic to say you don't shop at Wal-Mart. LOL. I try not to shop there most of the time, but it is pretty hypocritical - as stated in the OP - pass judgment on Wal-Mart and still shop there while feeling they are wrong for their practices. I'm only focusing on the hypocrisy of it, not the meat of the OP.

 

Everyone else, enjoy the thread! Its pretty clear that the reason some of us bump heads so much is as GG said and I paraphrase, "our thinking about things is miles apart". No wonder there is so much disagreement.

 

Sorry Tony. What can I say? I'm working on it.

[BB07]

Seems the thread has gone off topic.

 

Below are some examples, (and yes they are extreme,) of some posts that are IMO downright abusive and dangerous. Stuff like this should not be tolerated nor allowed. U2's azz should be banned like yesterday, imo.

They are from both boards, the OM/OW and the infidelity board.

 

 

then why put up a show for your H or waste his time,money...........get a D......you seem to be pursuing your As like an education.....he is as willing as you are.....i don't think pointing fingers would do any good.....it seems like ,you do not want to leave him even if he wants to leave you

 

with the wife like you at home it doesn't really surprise me that your H turned out to be damn abusive or even a psycho.......why not end your oprah once for all.....

 

"verbally and somewhat physically abusive h. He was also a liar with a p*rn problem"

 

oh, bullc***.........if he is so abusive then you shouldn't have married him...i don't think he turned abusive overnight......so don't feed bulls......you played both of them for fools...now here you are trying to be a victim....it doesn't really baffle me that real domestic violence cases going unnoticed

 

coming to the porn you had some serious real action going on for months behind your H's back.....anyways what's wrong with watching porn....he is not fu**** them right

 

 

if you call your gf/W bit** before the A....she would say...what a fun guy you are...

if it's during the A....then all of a sudden it's a mental abuse.....

has he ever really beaten the living s*** out of you....apart from that every thing else is fabricated s***

 

if it's true.......then i would say you are stupid to get back with her......no man in right frame of mind would get back with the evil bitch she is.....why are you blaming him anyways....she is the one did it to you not once , but time and again.....yet you are still there like love sick puppy.......

[2sure]

I appreciate you sharing. You have a unique perspective.

 

I just have to say, that is the nicest and most respectful way I have been told I am out of my mind in quite some time. Refreshing. LOL. I am going to use that in meetings.

[jennie-jennie]

When BSs get treated badly on the Infidelity forum is it by other BSs or by OW?

 

From what I have seen it is mostly done by other BSs.

[Snowflower]

When BSs get treated badly on the Infidelity forum is it by other BSs or by OW?

 

From what I have seen it is mostly done by other BSs.

 

JJ, you are correct, it is mostly done by other BS, at least IME.

 

One thing I have to say for the OW/OM forum is that they generally protect their own here unless a OW/OM poster is just way out of line. I've even seen OW defend a BS against another OW. I think it's just nice.

 

And IMO, with only a few exceptions where there is an OW/OM who comes here with the intent to hurt, BS's are often comforted or at least given helpful advice by OW on the Infidelity forum. I had that experience myself in a recent thread.

 

I'll call 'em as I see 'em. If someone is being treated poorly on these forums, I try to defend them...I don't care which side of the infidelity fence they are on.

[bohogirl]

 

I just have to say, that is the nicest and most respectful way I have been told I am out of my mind in quite some time. Refreshing. LOL. I am going to use that in meetings.

 

I am nothing but respectful!

[Dexter Morgan]

There are BS's who firmly state what their judgment actually is, but still offer relevant and practical advice, or help a poster understand their situation more.

 

And I would feel exactly the same if the OW/OM were over on infidelity attempting to undermine the BS's and make them feel crap about their situations.

 

great.....yet when it happens, you remain silent. So your qualifying of your statement falls a little short:o cuz it happens....don't see ya chiming in when it does.

 

ya ya I know...you haven't seen anything of the sort over in infidelity:rolleyes:

[Dexter Morgan]

Just read the first post.

 

Saying that A are morally wrong is just stating someone's views about morality. Saying to OW/OM who are looking for help because they're hurting that they should blame themselves for their pain, that they are immoral ect. is judgemental and unhelpful.

 

I think you'll find the ones that are receiving the "judgement" aren't interested in support on how to do the right thing in light of trying to deal with their own pain.

 

The ones that receive the "judgement" are the ones who clearly are still stuck in the "me me me" stage and dont' feel any sorrow or remorse about the fact they are hurting someone else in real life.

 

 

Saying things like BS have let themselves go, are uncaring or unattractive is NOT being judgemental, because it's nothing to do with anything being MORALLY wrong.

 

sure, it may not be judgemental to put down a BS, just a backhand at them.

 

ya, I can see where putting down the BS when they didn't do anything is defensible:rolleyes: forget the pain they are caused by their lousy spouse and OM/OW....lets just add insult to injury.

[Dexter Morgan]

I strongly believe compassion is the exact opposite of judgement (and I need a lot of compassion BTW, as I fail to be perfect).

 

I am wondering if compassion for the most part is a learned response, and not something built within a person...compassion does not come as easy as a critical spirit.

 

 

Glad you brought this up, because I don't see alot of compassion for the BS's from the OW/OM on this forum. Most will say they don't feel sorry for the BS and don't feel bad about the situation they are a partly responsible for causing.

 

compassion is earned, I would have at least some compassion for an OM/OW if they said they at least felt bad about what they are helping to do to the BS, or if they felt remorse. But more times than not, and there was a thread to prove this about our LS OM/OW, that they do not feel one bit of remorse over helping to hurt someone in real life.

 

And some are just downright arrogant about it.

 

so its real odd that those that don't give compassion to the BS, expect it on a public forum.