Being judgmental.

[bohogirl]

A spouse that has an affair and undermines the marriage...then denies it...is capable of blowing the college fund, going for milk in Thailand, and many other more permanent and drastic ways of betraying a marriage financially. They cannot be trusted. There is no security with someone like that.

 

Plus, if I'm your BS...good luck sleeping.

 

 

LOL. Ok there is a perception of security.

[NoIDidn't]

Not specific to you. I've seen others in A's longer than that and wondered the same things. Next time I'll say "a multiple years A."

 

Why should you have to refrain from bringing up a specific number? Some posters love to bring up "10 years" about another specific poster.

 

Either way, five years is a NICE ROUND NUMBER to show time wasted. Thankfully, most affairs don't last that long. Usually if they are going to leave, they would have left long before that time period had elapsed.

[2sure]

Would you have had an issue if he only had one OW for half your marriage?

 

Oh yeah of course. But I cant speak to that because thats not what happend in my marriage.

 

Having been OW myself (before being married)...Honestly? Ive found that the players...the MM and the OW...are all pretty much changable details in the whole infidelity game. The betrayal breaks the marriage...the rest is just distraction.

[NoIDidn't]

Having been OW myself (before being married)...Honestly? Ive found that the players...the MM and the OW...are all pretty much changable details in the whole infidelity game. The betrayal breaks the marriage...the rest is just distraction.

 

Agreed. And we let a lot of that "distraction" conversation go on around here to the point that it gets redundant.

 

No one likes the stats, but they exist for a reason. No one likes to hear that they are being told a "script", but its said for a reason.

 

I agree with the OP (original) that many times judgments are made about the person that the OPs (OW/OM) are helping betray, but they would NEVER want the same said about their own (self-reported) actions.

 

It gets tiresome. And it is definitely a distraction.

[lilbunny]

I agree, but I don't give a fluck about those that might think I am judgmental. Cheating on your spouse is wrong, period. Associating romantically with a married person is wrong, period. That's my judgment. Period.

 

If that is all you say, then I fail to see any purpose to your posts. I very much doubt an unqualified sentence of disapproval from a total stranger is likely to alter anyone's behaviour.

 

I see no relevance for the original poster, there is nothing new or insightful there, it is just your moral judgement. You disapprove, if that is all they learn from your post, what is it that you expect them to do?

 

It seems a pointless and self serving exercise to me. Can you explain your motivation for sharing that?

[bohogirl]

 

Oh yeah of course. But I cant speak to that because thats not what happend in my marriage.

 

Having been OW myself (before being married)...Honestly? Ive found that the players...the MM and the OW...are all pretty much changable details in the whole infidelity game. The betrayal breaks the marriage...the rest is just distraction.

 

I appreciate you sharing. You have a unique perspective.

[Mimolicious]

 

It is not just the MM that does not want to dismantle their life the BS does not want this either.

 

An you know this?

 

because I thought it was:

 

Well the world is a big place you cannot expect to know everyone.

 

kind of judgmental, uh?!

[donnamaybe]

Why should you have to refrain from bringing up a specific number?

I know. In a year, I won't be allowed to say "six years."

[NoIDidn't]

If that is all you say, then I fail to see any purpose to your posts. I very much doubt an unqualified sentence of disapproval from a total stranger is likely to alter anyone's behaviour.

 

I see no relevance for the original poster, there is nothing new or insightful there, it is just your moral judgement. You disapprove, if that is all they learn from your post, what is it that you expect them to do?

 

It seems a pointless and self serving exercise to me. Can you explain your motivation for sharing that?

 

 

But didn't you yourself just write: "I very much doubt an unqualified sentence of disapproval from a total stranger is likely to alter anyone's behaviour."

 

If it won't change a person's behavior in the end AND meets the LS TOS, who cares? That opinion can be ignored.

 

People post to be "heard" not obeyed.

[bohogirl]

An you know this?

 

because I thought it was:

 

 

 

kind of judgmental, uh?!

 

 

Post the whole quote or this makes no sense. Or is that the point?

[BB07]

YS said........

Hey. I'm only human after all. I was a kind, attentive, sensitive partner who really went above and beyond with my EX's first EA, her alcoholism & AA, her financial woes and our counseling together to try to repair all the damage she caused.

 

I was a good friend to the MM-with-the-pregnant-wife, I helped him with his business, my son cut his lawn, he and the prego wife were part of our social group and we shared many a BBQ, dinner party and camping trip together.

 

So the effect MM and my EX's affair had on me was earth-shattering. Two people that I supported and trusted betrayed me to the core. The fact that they are gaslighting the social group to this very day that "I made it all up" only adds insult to injury. A lot of the social group see me - the faithful partner - as the bad guy right now - (many have dumped me as a friend.)

 

So ya, I have some anger issues to resolve that were not of my making. But I really try to come to Loveshack to seek knowledge rather than to judge people. Yet I really find that some OW/OM here don't take ownership for the lives they are complicit in destroying - namely the BS and the kids. It is truly a life-changing hell that I would not wish on anyone.

 

You've been put through the mill and it isn't right, and it's ****ty and it's terrible and you have my sympathy, you really do. It was and is a terrible thing that your wife and your friend did to you. Geez, with friends like that, who needs that? I can only imagine how hurtful that is and I'm sorry.

 

So ya, I have some anger issues to resolve that were not of my making. But I really try to come to Loveshack to seek knowledge rather than to judge people. Yet I really find that some OW/OM here don't take ownership for the lives they are complicit in destroying - namely the BS and the kids. It is truly a life-changing hell that I would not wish on anyone.

 

I take ownership of my ****e, believe me I do. I take responsibility and feel very remorseful and sorry that I had a part in hurting another woman, like the BS has hurt and is still hurting in my situation. He conned me, yes he did, but I had my part in it. I'm referring to the affair that he and I had several years ago when I was knowingly the OW. This last time around, geez even though I didn't knowingly become the OW, I was and it isn't pretty or pleasant and I suffer for it, I have guilt and remorse for that to. I won't get into the details of it out of respect for the BS but there was one night when she vented with me and I think I got as close to her pain as anyone can possibly get who isn't actually experiencing it. OMG, it was heart wrenching! That forever changed me, in that I will never be a part of hurting another woman like that again, never. I could feel it, I could smell it, I could taste it if that makes any sense, I got how badly that his betrayal hurt her.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if it was your thread... but if it was... wasn't it AMAZING how the MM painted his BS to you? That is... until you actually met her and realized she wasn't anything like what he painted to you.

 

You are right, she wasn't what he painted her out to be and much to her surprise, I was not what he painted me out to be. She thought I was some druggie hussy hell bent on stealing her husband.

He was desperate for her and I not to talk, he didn't want her talking to me, and he didn't want me to talk to her so the lies at the end had to get bigger and bigger. He was trying to protect himself and his lies and not get his world blown up. He said later he knew it was just a matter of time, and that he knew it was going to all come out sooner or later, but he was in so deep that he didn't see any way out of it. Well honesty would have been a way out, but his selfishness and self protection prevented that from happening.

 

 

 

I feel sorry for the OW/OM who are knowingly in an affair with a MM/MW. They are taking a bite of a poisoned apple, and when you try to tell them that they resist the criticism... as if it is you who are deceiving them while they defend the real™ dishonest party - their cheating MM/MW.

[donnamaybe]

five years is a NICE ROUND NUMBER to show time wasted. Thankfully' date=' most affairs don't last that long. Usually if they are going to leave, they would have left long before that time period had elapsed.[/quote']Or the AP would have realized that it was a go nowhere situation and bailed.

[lilbunny]

But didn't you yourself just write: "I very much doubt an unqualified sentence of disapproval from a total stranger is likely to alter anyone's behaviour."

 

If it won't change a person's behavior in the end AND meets the LS TOS, who cares? That opinion can be ignored.

 

People post to be "heard" not obeyed.

 

Hence my point: it is a self serving exercise.

 

They can be ignored, in fact the lack of impact says that they are ignored.

 

My question was: is there some other purpose to these posts? What do the posters want to achieve? It is a genuine question.

[Fallen Angel]

Sigh that term is so tiresome. So many times you read that people who find affairs morally wrong are just bitter judgmental people but is that not what the ow is doing?

 

The ow makes judgments of the bs DAILY. They justify their relationship with the mm through their own judgments of a woman they do not even know.

 

As lizzie said in another thread.

 

 

These are all judgments she has made about the bs. You without knowing the bs form an opinion of her and judge her not to be worthy of her husband. You judge her to be a bad mom, a bad housekeeper, fat, lazy and even a lousy lover.

 

I am so tired of hearing that people are being judgmental when they find affairs to be offensive. The pw is doing much more judging daily than the bs. It is so hypocritical.

 

This thread is really long already, and I have only read the first two posts. My response is, you are speaking of lizzie specifically, please do not lump all OW into a bin and lable us by something lizzie has said or done. THAT is being judgemental.

[NoIDidn't]

Hence my point: it is a self serving exercise.

 

They can be ignored, in fact the lack of impact says that they are ignored.

 

My question was: is there some other purpose to these posts? What do the posters want to achieve? It is a genuine question.

 

I think they post for the reason I stated: to be heard.

 

Some feel that to do nothing is more evil than to offend one actually doing what they consider evil.

 

They state their piece.

 

But I can't speak to their intent on whether they mean to be hurtful or not. I have no problem with what Nancy posted. It was a simple statement. No "poetic license" involved. No nastiness. Just plain she feels its wrong. I don't see that as judgmental. I just see that as a statement of her opinion. And if I disagree with it, I am free to ignore her opinion.

[NoIDidn't]

This thread is really long already, and I have only read the first two posts. My response is, you are speaking of lizzie specifically, please do not lump all OW into a bin and lable us by something lizzie has said or done. THAT is being judgemental.

 

Its actually stereotyping - which is done to the betrayed here ALL THE TIME - which is a form of judgment. A lazy one that doesn't even take the time to JUDGE each person on their own merits.

 

The "oh, you're just saying that because you were betrayed" sounds very similar.

 

I'm not saying either is right for doing it. But like the OP said, only one perception gets called out as judgmental here.

[Fallen Angel]

Its actually stereotyping - which is done to the betrayed here ALL THE TIME - which is a form of judgment. A lazy one that doesn't even take the time to JUDGE each person on their own merits.

 

The "oh, you're just saying that because you were betrayed" sounds very similar.

 

I'm not saying either is right for doing it. But like the OP said, only one perception gets called out as judgmental here.

 

BS! And I don't mean betrayed spouse. But this is another pointless argument thread started to bash OW... whatever....

[greengoddess]

BS! And I don't mean betrayed spouse. But this is another pointless argument thread started to bash OW... whatever....

 

Fallen angel I think you need to read the thread. It's been very respectful and nicely discussed. If you read it instead of making a judgment on my motives you may feel differently.

[donnamaybe]

only one perception gets called out as judgmental here.

Yup. And bitter. Let's not forget bitter.

 

Although, since I'm not a BS, CAN I be bitter?

 

That seems to be reserved for BS's only.

[Silly_Girl]

If I was so totally in love with someone I would never put a foreign holiday or a new car ahead of them.

 

Me neither. Never. But I find it judgmental for someone to make the call that because someone else does not make the same choices as them in the same situation that the other person is 'wrong', or (which is normally what's posted) "they don't love you if they don't do x, y, z".

 

All that means is "if I didn't do x, y, z it would mean I didn't love that person".

[Tony]

Fallen angel I think you need to read the thread. It's been very respectful and nicely discussed. If you read it instead of making a judgment on my motives you may feel differently.

 

I agree. People do not come here to be judged. They come here for advice and support. If a member has neither to offer, they should abstain from posting in the thread. Many persons' religious and moral upbringings taught them that cheating and betrayal is wrong. That doesn't give us the right to condemn others.

 

I was brought up to believe that stealing a tootsie roll from the corner grocer was wrong, yet I did it a time or two and to this day I can't figure out whether I feel guilty about it or not. However, I do not judge others for violating my moral imperatives...or even theirs. It happens to humans.

 

When I see posts that lecture people on the evils of their affairs, I delete them. I do have my own personal guidelines for myself but I don't press those on others, especially here. People already know exactly what their own personal morals are. Frankly, I wish some of them would be a lot more clear about what they actually need from us...but one thing is for sure, lectures on what we think are the evils of what they are doing is NOT what they are here for.

 

If you happen to be Christian, you know you are ultimately judged by the same criteria you judge others. Suspend all judgment and your are clear to move to the front of the line.

[donnamaybe]

I personally feel people are doing more "evil" to themselves waiting for an A to become something more. Waiting for the MM/MW to leave their spouse. It happens occasionally, but when it does happen it happens rather soon. Not after years and years. It is sad to know that those years are going by and the AP will most likely not get what they really want.

 

And that's NOT me being judgmental on A's. I have an opinion, and it may seem judgmental, but I feel my motives are in the right place.

[Silly_Girl]

I was thinking about this the other day. I find it contradictory, but I feel the same way - oddly enough.

 

I'll explain.

 

A friend's H has been trying to tempt me into some sort of intimacy with him for years. I've always ignored him, for the most part, because I've known her longer than him. But if she weren't my friend, I can honestly say it would be harder to resist.

 

The reasons are many. Most of us find it easier to cause pain to an unknown person. We shop at Wal-Mart knowing that people half a world away are working in sweat shops like slaves. But we won't support a company domestically that's doing the same thing to our neighbors.

 

So my logic goes like this. If I messed around with him and we were found out, I'd lose my social network (we have many mutual friends and we've been friends since high school), I'd lose my reputation as a trustworthy friend (which I am, but some may not think it safe to have their husbands around me after something like this), my children would lose their very good friends since our kids often play together, I'd humiliate my H as he and the guy are friends as well, and lastly, I'd lose my friend AND her H as friends.

 

None of these things is desirable.

 

I don't think a friend sleeping with a friend's spouse is a "double-betrayal" as its so often said around here. I feel its betraying my community because it will ripple through the lives of all that I hold dear.

 

So I would never do it. And I don't think saying so is judgmental of me. I think its a calculated choice, seriously weighing the pros and cons (not just the morals part, as I don't think most people truly have the morals they claim to have anyway - but that's another topic).

 

NID - not putting words in to your mouth, my head's dead foggy today, are you saying that your choice not to cheat here is not because it is morally wrong?; not because your friend would be hurt?; but because it would impact on your life unfavourably and you can't be bothered with the hassle?

[NoIDidn't]

If you happen to be Christian, you know you are ultimately judged by the same criteria you judge others. Suspend all judgment and your are clear to move to the front of the line.

 

Off-topic a bit, but I disagree with this. A Christian is called to be "hot or cold" or risk being "spewed out of [His] mouth". They are called to exercise "right" judgment, but none has the power of condemnation.

 

And, back on topic, I think that's the issue some have with what they are labelling "judgmental". I think they feel "condemned" for their choices, which, to me, is worse than feeling judged.

 

We all exercise judgment to a degree, even concerning people's actions and motives. So I don't think being judgmental is the biggest concern as no one can "suspend ALL judgment" without jeopardizing their emotional or physical well-being.

[NoIDidn't]

NID - not putting words in to your mouth, my head's dead foggy today, are you saying that your choice not to cheat here is not because it is morally wrong?; not because your friend would be hurt?; but because it would impact on your life unfavourably and you can't be bothered with the hassle?

 

LOL. Yeah. Something like the last one, but you make it sound worst than it actually is. LOL. I can't be bothered with the hassle. I do feel its morally wrong, but I'm human have been known to go against my own morals a time or two. And in so doing, learned that some things aren't worth the bother.

 

But, number two is pretty important too. To cheat with a friend's spouse is offensive to most people. I'm not saying that the friend's pain is neglible, but is actually not my biggest concern. I could hurt my friend by saying something unflattering about her to someone else, or telling her the truth about my feelings for something she did. There are many ways to hurt a friend. Sleeping with their spouse is but one of them. And depending on the person, some people would feel that sleeping with their spouse wasn't even the worst thing that was done to them.

 

 

The pain caused the friend is huge, but so is the lost to the one helping the friend's spouse cheat. When you share a social circle and you lose it, that lost is huge.

 

And I can say this from partial experience. A friend's husband was cheating on her, but not with me. He lied and said it was with me because we were working very closely together on a project (alone, at my house). It wasn't until she walked in on him with ONE of his OW (in her bed) that she knew he lied to her, but the damage was done to our friendship already. She and I parted ways, but not before I lost a huge part of my social network behind his lies.

 

After the truth was out these "friends" came back, but I no longer wanted them. They didn't even think to ask me what the truth was. Sometimes enemies are better than friends like these. I was judged to be a "greedy homewrecker" since I was already married. And no one sought the truth from me for three long and lonely years.

 

(This story has many more turns and twists to it. While mostly on-topic with the judgmental side of things, I don't want to change the thread too much)