So glad I'm not the only one....

[You Go Girl]

"Every single time I try to get us to have sex (make love / delete as applicable) you knock me back. I find this hurtful and demeaning."

 

Wife's answer: "It isn't a buyer's market."

 

Are you serious your wife says this to you?

That's a long term married wife who is so comfortable that she actually believes she can dictate terms and conditions without consequences. Seems she needs a little shake-up, that her stability isn't as much of a sure thing as she thinks it is if she is so willing to disregard her partner's feelings and thinks she can brush them off like a pesty fly.

[You Go Girl]

Please tell me this last post with all the bold in it was a joke?

 

I'm new here and can't tell if people are joking or if there are actually women on this planet who think like this?

 

No joke at all.

Just because in this age there is porn available with one click with the internet in every home, doesn't mean your wife has agreed you may partake whenever you choose.

Here's the thing that I think many men, especially the younger generation, are not understanding: There are still men out there (not only women) who believe in a man being a gentleman. Gentlemen are very hard to find these days. I don't think you realize that they are a dying breed.

Everybody does it, why not me?

And the attitude above is exactly why there are so few gentlemen anymore.

[You Go Girl]

Probably a fair number, and some men too. IIRC, somewhere in the new testament Jesus says something about adultery of the mind being no less bad that doing it in the flesh. Whilst you obviously don't buy into the idea (and for the record, I don't either), there is obviously a well-established precedent for thinking like this.

 

The interesting thing in your comment is, I'm a happy heathen. Religion has little to do with how I feel, except to admit that I was raised in a religious home, so it may be instilled deep.

But that isn't why I am against this behavior. Like I wrote in the above post, it's about being a gentleman. I like a man that thinks that he is lucky to get the woman he has, (and if he doesn't feel that way-what is he doing in the relationship!). He doesn't take her for granted. He doesn't assume that he may pretend he is having sex with a very graphic porn video girl anytime the urge strikes. He sees this as wrong on a basic level of being in a committed relationship.

[You Go Girl]

He may not be thinking of another women. However in most couples cases only professionally made movies are those with "other women". It is possible to take the act and mind bend that porn starlet and stud into the two of you actually doing that as the man masturbates. Or at least that is what I did when in a LDR.

 

There are also the things a partner won't do, say groups anal or whatever.

 

Well the above scenario is an interesting one, but unlikely for most men. If they wanted to think of their SO, they would simply close their eyes, and dream away, remembering many pictures in their heads from previous times they were together.

As for the things a partner won't do like group and anal--why do people think that everything is ok to dream about? Just because it's out there on the internet doesn't mean you have to go down that road in your head.

Sex for many has become some free for all. Everything is acceptable to some people, not only to imagine doing, but later, much to their wives unhappy ears--suggest it to her at some point because he saw it on the internet. Geesh.

Just because McDonald's sells every unhealthy full of calorie burger and shake combination they can think of doesn't mean that it is good for you, that you have to buy it, or that you can't help yourself and must stop everytime you pass one on the road.

[xxoo]

Well the above scenario is an interesting one, but unlikely for most men.

 

Why unlikely? That is how my H and I have always used porn, when we do.

 

If they wanted to think of their SO, they would simply close their eyes, and dream away, remembering many pictures in their heads from previous times they were together.

 

Eh, it's really different. It is the visual that makes it different and fun.

 

YGG, I get that you've had some extremely bad experiences with porn in relationships. It sounds like the OP has a bad situation, too. But that isn't a reason to make generalities about ALL men (and women) who use porn (take their partner for granted, not a gentleman, etc). Compatibility is important, of course, and I support you in finding a partner who chooses not to use porn.

 

As for the OP, I think you need to start really listening to your partner, while doing your best to create a space where he can be open and honest with you. He might never be able to do that, and, if that is the case, then you should leave him. Without open communication, there is no marriage.

 

But if you CAN create a space where communication is open and honest, find out WHY he is using porn. What need does it fill? Is it an escape? An addiction?

 

Then the two of you can work together to see if there is some honest common ground, or if you are simply incompatible. But it is really damaging to the relationship for him to keep promising not to use it, and then use it anyway. It is also damaging for you to INSIST he not use it, without understanding why he uses it.

[You Go Girl]

YGG, I get that you've had some extremely bad experiences with porn in relationships. It sounds like the OP has a bad situation, too. But that isn't a reason to make generalities about ALL men (and women) who use porn (take their partner for granted, not a gentleman, etc). Compatibility is important, of course, and I support you in finding a partner who chooses not to use porn.

 

.

 

If I sounded as if I was making generalities of all men and women, then my jadedness came through, agreed.

If the couple agrees to it together, that's fine for them, no problem there.

I obviously take umbrage with those who think it is their right, entitlement, and lie, hide it, etc., and never have the discussion.

[Honorable_Venerable]

QUOTE=You Go Girl;2990773]Are you serious your wife says this to you?

That's a long term married wife who is so comfortable that she actually believes she can dictate terms and conditions without consequences. Seems she needs a little shake-up, that her stability isn't as much of a sure thing as she thinks it is if she is so willing to disregard her partner's feelings and thinks she can brush them off like a pesty fly.

Sorry - disjointed reply to several things.

 

Yes, because a "gentleman" will bite his tongue, and she knows it, because a "gentleman" will never try to persuade a woman to do anything she doesn't want... A gentleman's feelings are irrelevant - only the lady matters.

 

And there are those who wonder why "gentlemanly" behaviour is rare. I fear largely because it pays off so rarely that it generally few men find there's any rationale to do it. There's just a few who haven't had it knocked out of them yet.

 

Question - a married couple are making love. One or the other, or both of them, is fantasising about Brad Pitt / Angelian Jolie (any combination thereof). How does this figure on the "cheating" scale?

 

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it. You're absolutely right that marriage vows explicitly state that neither partner has any right whatsoever to have any sort of sexual fulfillment outwith their spouse. However, AT NO POINT is there any similarly explicit expectation of a fulfilling sexual relationship with this spouse. It might be implied but there is nothing, anywhere, that says that either partner has to even consider meeting the other halfway regarding sex. It might be polite, human (humane?), adult, good manners and a raft of other things, but if they don't feel like it, them's the cards in your hand. They don't have to lift a finger or bend a thought to it. As far as sex goes, the only feelings they have to consider are their own.

[InceptorsRule]

Please tell me this last post with all the bold in it was a joke?

 

I'm new here and can't tell if people are joking or if there are actually women on this planet who think like this?

 

There are some serious dysfunctional people posting here so no it's not a joke.

[waynebrady]

Alot of women have low sex drives and alot of women do not want to perform oral sex on their man and only want to use the missionary position. And that's the reason why men look at porn, they don't get fully satisfied by their wifes. Women have no right to prevent their husbands to please themselves if they are refusing to have sex with the man.

[flying]

Alot of women have low sex drives and alot of women do not want to perform oral sex on their man and only want to use the missionary position. And that's the reason why men look at porn, they don't get fully satisfied by their wifes. Women have no right to prevent their husbands to please themselves if they are refusing to have sex with the man.

 

Sigh. It's like people don't really read the individual story posted in the OP, they just pile on with what they assume MUST be wrong, based on their own preconceptions.

 

The OP said she had stepped up all these things and it didn't help:

 

I have been trying to figure out what was causing him to turn to porn and honestly I am still somewhat confused. He had told me before that we weren't having enough sex, so I picked up the pace. He kept turning to porn. Then he said it was the lack of oral sex, so I picked up the pace on that too. He of course kept turning to porn. Every time I catch him he comes up with some reason why and I try to adjust to keep him happy but nothing works.

 

So, there you go. Now what?

[You Go Girl]

.

Sorry - disjointed reply to several things.

 

Yes, because a "gentleman" will bite his tongue, and she knows it, because a "gentleman" will never try to persuade a woman to do anything she doesn't want... A gentleman's feelings are irrelevant - only the lady matters.

 

And there are those who wonder why "gentlemanly" behaviour is rare. I fear largely because it pays off so rarely that it generally few men find there's any rationale to do it. There's just a few who haven't had it knocked out of them yet.

 

Question - a married couple are making love. One or the other, or both of them, is fantasising about Brad Pitt / Angelian Jolie (any combination thereof). How does this figure on the "cheating" scale?

 

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it. You're absolutely right that marriage vows explicitly state that neither partner has any right whatsoever to have any sort of sexual fulfillment outwith their spouse. However, AT NO POINT is there any similarly explicit expectation of a fulfilling sexual relationship with this spouse. It might be implied but there is nothing, anywhere, that says that either partner has to even consider meeting the other halfway regarding sex. It might be polite, human (humane?), adult, good manners and a raft of other things, but if they don't feel like it, them's the cards in your hand. They don't have to lift a finger or bend a thought to it. As far as sex goes, the only feelings they have to consider are their own.

 

Sigh. There is obviously some very serious disconnect with you and your W.

Being a gentleman isn't going through the motions of opening doors, it's cherishing a W.

And likewise of course--a lady cherishes her man. Your W doesn't seem to cherish you, sorry!

 

As to whether imagining Jolie/Pitt is cheating--is that even the real question? Not to me. Why are these two people so disconnected during the most intimate of times that they have to imagine they are somewhere else and with somebody else? Hello! The best sex in the world is staring into your lover's eyes and making that connection while you are connected elsewhere with your bodies. There's no time or thought of other people--not if you're present in the moment, and love being so close and loving each other. Sex is about the connection! Not the getting off!

Anybody can get off anytime with their hand...but being with somebody else is all about just that! BEING WITH THEM!

So I don't even address the question, because it just seems SAD to me. I don't ever want to have sex that is so disconnected from my partner that I have to imagine I'm somewhere else.

Now if it seems like it is the same old same old because it's the same person and the same position and the same sighs for 20 years or whatever--then I think doing something a little out of character--being loud if you're usually quiet, talking dirty if you usually talk all lovey-dovey, or talking lovey-dovey if you usually talk dirty, or whatever it takes to spice things up...I really don't believe there is some limit as to how to make things exciting. A new nightie? Heels and tearing up the sheets? On top of the kitchen table? Whatever it takes!

It seems to me that there are some people who are never satisfied, no matter what is done, no matter how much love comes their way, no matter how enthusiastic their partner is in bed. And then there are people who's mate is the problem because they are tuned out. And if a mate is tuned out, they need a little shake-up, that hey, this isn't working!

But most of all...there is that simple straight forward comfort of the person you love and loves you...and if THAT is intact, everything else falls into place naturally, without effort, and it NEVER gets boring.

Now I am having deja-vu. I know we have been down this road on another thread some months back...and I hope that somehow you can break through that thick skull of hers and let her know that you do love her...and you'd like to be close with intimacy! But the status quo just ain't working!

[You Go Girl]

Alot of women have low sex drives and alot of women do not want to perform oral sex on their man and only want to use the missionary position. And that's the reason why men look at porn, they don't get fully satisfied by their wifes. Women have no right to prevent their husbands to please themselves if they are refusing to have sex with the man.

 

Sorry, I can't relate to women that only want missionary and won't perform oral. I don't lack variety or enthusiasm in the bedroom whatsoever.

It certainly isn't the only reason different men use porn. Some men get very enthusiastic partners such as myself and it's still not enough for them........

I agree, if a woman is refusing sex, then her man, AFTER trying to fix the problem and failing over and over again, has a right to tell her that he's going somewhere else, wherever that may be.

[Honorable_Venerable]

 

Sigh. There is obviously some very serious disconnect with you and your W.

Being a gentleman isn't going through the motions of opening doors, it's cherishing a W.

And likewise of course--a lady cherishes her man. Your W doesn't seem to cherish you, sorry!

Being a gentleman is all to do with obeying certain rules, and with all due respect, knob-all to do with "cherishing a W". My wife doesn't see that sex has anything to do with cherishing - it's something men do to women and women try to avoid, or at least to manage downward to an "acceptable" level.

 

As to whether imagining Jolie/Pitt is cheating--is that even the real question? Not to me. Why are these two people so disconnected during the most intimate of times that they have to imagine they are somewhere else and with somebody else?

I'm not saying you aren't right, but where does this sit with the idea that everyone is having sexual fantasies, unless you construe sexual fantasies as limited to imagining doing something with your spouse they don't / won't do.

Hello! The best sex in the world is staring into your lover's eyes and making? that connection while you are connected elsewhere with your bodies. There's no time or thought of other people--not if you're present in the moment, and love being so close and loving each other. Sex is about the connection! Not the getting off!

And for those for whom sex is a chore / icky / boring / an imposition on their time / whatever, where are they in this, or perhaps more importantly, where does this leave their partners?

 

Anybody can get off anytime with their hand...but being with somebody else is all about just that! BEING WITH THEM!

So I don't even address the question, because it just seems SAD to me. I don't ever want to have sex that is so disconnected from my partner that I have to imagine I'm somewhere else.

I have to say that this is something a lot of people DO have to do - they don't want to / can't get divorced, but have nothing that even resembles the sex life you describe (one partner might aspire to it, but like I get told, "it isn't a buyer's market".)

 

Now if it seems like it is the same old same old because it's the same person and the same position and the same sighs for 20 years or whatever--then I think doing something a little out of character--being loud if you're usually quiet, talking dirty if you usually talk all lovey-dovey, or talking lovey-dovey if you usually talk dirty, or whatever it takes to spice things up...I really don't believe there is some limit as to how to make things exciting. A new nightie? Heels and tearing up the sheets? On top of the kitchen table? Whatever it takes!

The limit is what the other partner will "let" you do - if they say no talking, dirty or otherwise, no sex except in bed missionary position, light off and covers up, if you try to spice it up, I will tell you what you get - nothing. If your partner's into something like, you won't have to introduce it, you already will be doing it. I accept there might be cases where one partner or the other perhaps never thought of it or didn't feel confident enough to say, but for the most part, people know what the answer will be before they ask. At best it's a frosty refusal, at worst, you don't even get the level of sex you had before until you've apologised and promised never to do it again.

 

It seems to me that there are some people who are never satisfied, no matter what is done, no matter how much love comes their way, no matter how enthusiastic their partner is in bed. And then there are people who's mate is the problem because they are tuned out. And if a mate is tuned out, they need a little shake-up, that hey, this isn't working!

No, they aren't tuned out in all cases - in some cases they know what they COULD do and have not the slightest interest in doing it. In this case a shakeup is a good way to make thinks worse for a good long time.

 

But most of all...there is that simple straight forward comfort of the person you love and loves you...and if THAT is intact, everything else falls into place naturally, without effort, and it NEVER gets boring.

"Why do you only ever see love being expressed in terms of sex? Can't you just feel loved without sex, or with the sex we have?" I can't be the only man who's heard that (or something similar)

 

Now I am having deja-vu. I know we have been down this road on another thread some months back...and I hope that somehow you can break through that thick skull of hers and let her know that you do love her...and you'd like to be close with intimacy! But the status quo just ain't working!

See above;) Love and sex are different, and it works for her, and I don't count! I'll post an update soon, now we're having "real" Relate meetings.

[carhill]

Usually we have sex anywhere between 4-9 times a week, sometimes more. I have always thought that was about average because I was 18 when we got together. So it never really phased me, and I have always been able and eager to keep up. My biggest issue is that there have been times that I tried to come on to him in the evening and he said he was too tired or something, and I caught him watching porn later that night. Earlier today I asked him what I wasn't doing for him, so I could be enough and he told me that it wasn't that I wasn't enough, just that he was a man. Honestly the way it sounds to me is that he is bored and wants to sleep with other women or something, which, in all honesty, I would be fine with but he would have to let me sleep with other guys, and that is where the issue lies. I really am confused.

This post boils it down. No wonder you're confused. It's true, he is a man, just not a mature one yet. Are you willing to hang in there while he matures? Are you compatible in enough other ways to feel positive about continuing? It might be worth getting a professional's take on your dynamic, especially the communication aspects away from the bedroom.

 

How old are you and he now and do you have children?

[controlledchaos]

i am so sorry your wife is like this. not all women are like this.

 

as for the comment she made regarding love and sex ( quoted further down in this quote). i read something that stated that men are taught from birth to turn off their feelings. that is the natural state for men. and one of the few times that they open up emotionally, and feel emotionally, is during sex. they need that time to reconnect and to feel and love.

 

one of the simplest things i read about men is that they are not hard to care for or hard to please. love them and have sex with them.

 

there is a lot of really good advice out there about dealing with two people who have differing sex drives.

 

i can relate to the positioning and time of day and place issues. it stinks to want to do more or different places, etc. and not have someone be interested along with you.

 

 

 

Being a gentleman is all to do with obeying certain rules, and with all due respect, knob-all to do with "cherishing a W". My wife doesn't see that sex has anything to do with cherishing - it's something men do to women and women try to avoid, or at least to manage downward to an "acceptable" level.

 

 

I'm not saying you aren't right, but where does this sit with the idea that everyone is having sexual fantasies, unless you construe sexual fantasies as limited to imagining doing something with your spouse they don't / won't do.

 

And for those for whom sex is a chore / icky / boring / an imposition on their time / whatever, where are they in this, or perhaps more importantly, where does this leave their partners?

 

 

I have to say that this is something a lot of people DO have to do - they don't want to / can't get divorced, but have nothing that even resembles the sex life you describe (one partner might aspire to it, but like I get told, "it isn't a buyer's market".)

 

 

The limit is what the other partner will "let" you do - if they say no talking, dirty or otherwise, no sex except in bed missionary position, light off and covers up, if you try to spice it up, I will tell you what you get - nothing. If your partner's into something like, you won't have to introduce it, you already will be doing it. I accept there might be cases where one partner or the other perhaps never thought of it or didn't feel confident enough to say, but for the most part, people know what the answer will be before they ask. At best it's a frosty refusal, at worst, you don't even get the level of sex you had before until you've apologised and promised never to do it again.

 

No, they aren't tuned out in all cases - in some cases they know what they COULD do and have not the slightest interest in doing it. In this case a shakeup is a good way to make thinks worse for a good long time.

 

 

"Why do you only ever see love being expressed in terms of sex? Can't you just feel loved without sex, or with the sex we have?" I can't be the only man who's heard that (or something similar)

 

 

See above;) Love and sex are different, and it works for her, and I don't count! I'll post an update soon, now we're having "real" Relate meetings.

[Stormie]

If you can find a way to show him that you are willing to attempt to see things his way (not agree with, but simply to try to understand it) he might be more willing to do the same for you.

 

I have tried sitting him down and us haveing a not heated disscusion on the why of it, he always gives me some bogus reason, then after that I try to fix whatever he said was the problem this time, it just seems to do no good. He always comes up with something new.

[Stormie]

I find it unrealistic to require someone to never masturbate or look at porn while in a committed relationship.

 

It's not that I mind him masturbating, I just have an issue with his chosen muse. I have told him could could take pics or whatever of me and we used to have a few videos. But he don't use those, that is what has me so upset.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

i am so sorry your wife is like this. not all women are like this.

 

as for the comment she made regarding love and sex ( quoted further down in this quote). i read something that stated that men are taught from birth to turn off their feelings. that is the natural state for men. and one of the few times that they open up emotionally, and feel emotionally, is during sex. they need that time to reconnect and to feel and love.

 

one of the simplest things i read about men is that they are not hard to care for or hard to please. love them and have sex with them.

 

there is a lot of really good advice out there about dealing with two people who have differing sex drives.

 

i can relate to the positioning and time of day and place issues. it stinks to want to do more or different places, etc. and not have someone be interested along with you.

 

 

The OP has a seriopus issue that goes way beyond Porn as Carhill and I have pointed out and she still does not get.....

 

But I love what Controlledchaos said and must wonder how young and naive she is to actually think it is so simple.....

 

Honorable Venerable made me laugh out loud and wonder if we are married to the same person when he posted this.....

 

"Why do you only ever see love being expressed in terms of sex? Can't you just feel loved without sex, or with the sex we have?" I can't be the only man who's heard that (or something similar)....

 

 

Hit way too close to home....

[LucreziaBorgia]

I have tried sitting him down and us haveing a not heated disscusion on the why of it, he always gives me some bogus reason, then after that I try to fix whatever he said was the problem this time, it just seems to do no good. He always comes up with something new.

 

It doesn't sound like he is interested in anything except what works for himself.

 

It is good you tried talking to him, though. Unfortunately, he probably associates sex with conflict, and porn with 'no conflict', among other things.

 

What were some of the bogus reasons? If they all had to do with stuff that YOU need to fix, then you can bet they are bogus. Did he offer up anything that had to do with how he 'works' (ie: he gets bored easily, he literally can't get aroused without porn anymore, etc)?

 

I have told him could could take pics or whatever of me and we used to have a few videos. But he don't use those, that is what has me so upset.

 

This isn't a problem with you - there are plenty of guys out there who have basically conditioned themselves in such a way that they need a constant stream of "new" in order to become aroused and simply looking at pictures of the girlfriend/wife won't work (they are already used to it, and need something "new"). Sexual ADD, if you will. Some men are simply wired in this way in general.

 

I think he may have porned himself out to the point where he actually needs it in order to become aroused, or to reach the a certain level of pleasure when he has an orgasm.

 

I do think that you both would benefit from a porn-free period.

Edited September 13, 2010 by LucreziaBorgia

[Stormie]

I have tried that, and we have what I think is great sex during those times, but eventually that tapers off (his end, not mine) and he's back to porn. After I do see that he has been back to porn I feel too discusted to sleep with him, wich in turn increases his porn use, so it's a catch 22.

[Honorable_Venerable]

 

 

Honorable Venerable made me laugh out loud and wonder if we are married to the same person when he posted this.....

 

"Why do you only ever see love being expressed in terms of sex? Can't you just feel loved without sex, or with the sex we have?" I can't be the only man who's heard that (or something similar)....

 

 

Hit way too close to home....

How come you never use the shower at my house then?

 

We try to please - not just here, but out there with the wife in the real world. The difference is here it sometimes works. I'm gathering my thoughts on an update on our MC. Suffice it to say that it could be going better.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

How come you never use the shower at my house then?

 

We try to please - not just here, but out there with the wife in the real world. The difference is here it sometimes works. I'm gathering my thoughts on an update on our MC. Suffice it to say that it could be going better.

 

Oh yea, and "it's not a buyer's market" sounded familiar too.... Told we have a great marriage outside the bedroom complaints....

[xxoo]

How come you never use the shower at my house then?

 

We try to please - not just here, but out there with the wife in the real world. The difference is here it sometimes works. I'm gathering my thoughts on an update on our MC. Suffice it to say that it could be going better.

 

Oh, sorry to hear that HV! I'd been hoping for good news.

[controlledchaos]

depends how young, "young" is ;-) and yes, i am starting to believe i am naive. seeing as how my marriage has fallen apart ( only long term relationship i have ever been in) and all i ever did was show him love and respect, and have sex with him........ it wasn't enough.

 

i am still sorry you both are married to people like that. i'm glad the rest of your marriage is good!

 

 

 

But I love what Controlledchaos said and must wonder how young and naive she is to actually think it is so simple.....

 

Honorable Venerable made me laugh out loud and wonder if we are married to the same person when he posted this.....

 

"Why do you only ever see love being expressed in terms of sex? Can't you just feel loved without sex, or with the sex we have?" I can't be the only man who's heard that (or something similar)....

 

 

Hit way too close to home....