Should there be "unconditional love" between spouses?

[UnifiedFieldTheory]

I'm new here, and many of the threads and comments have helped me gain a new perspective. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my marriage - something has to change.

 

So... now, I have a simple question. I base it on the feelings I have for my children (both grown and on their own). I love them unconditionally, They could do anything, and I would still love them. Suppose I don't feel this way about my spouse?

 

About me... married over 25 years. Still care deeply for my spouse. We've both made mistakes along the way - her infidelity, my rage when I found out - money troubles, all solved now - my own issues from being abused as a child, which I'm working on - her issues of emotional detachment, which she's working on now.

 

But along with those mistakes is a beautiful past. Wonderful memories of raising our children, cooking dinner together, taking vacations, decorating our house, romantic dates (I'm an incurable romantic) - all beautiful stuff.

 

But those troubles have taken the spark away. That unconditional love isn't there like it is for my children. I'm seriously considering separation and possibly divorce. We've done well together, but it may be time to move on.

 

Is it possible to rekindle that unconditional love after carrying so much baggage?

[TaraMaiden]

I'm afraid you don't know what unconditional love is, if you think you have to rekindle it.

Unconditional Love means loving somebody, caring for them, caring about them, accepting them for everything they think, say and do, and letting them live their life without feeling beholden to you. In other words, your Kindness, Compassion and Love, has no conditions attached to it.

This is the kind of Love that should be cultivated for everybody, no matter who they are to you.

However, we too should have boundaries in order to protect ourselves from manifesting Idiot Compassion. Simply because you have Unconditional Love for someone, it doesn't mean you have to Like them, or agree with what they do.

 

His Holiness the Dalai Lama has over the decades developed, cultivated and manifested Unconditional love and Compassion for the Chinese.

he wouldn't take tea with them, any time soon, though.....

[UnifiedFieldTheory]

Simply because you have Unconditional Love for someone, it doesn't mean you have to Like them, or agree with what they do.

 

His Holiness the Dalai Lama has over the decades developed, cultivated and manifested Unconditional love and Compassion for the Chinese.

he wouldn't take tea with them, any time soon, though.....

 

Great point. It appears I'm in a confused emotional state right now. I need to take an inventory of what I'm really feeling.

[TaraMaiden]

I think it's probably very simple:

You've hit the "love-her-but-not-IN-love-with-her" plateau.....

[Simon Attwood]

I think it's probably very simple:

You've hit the "love-her-but-not-IN-love-with-her" plateau.....

 

 

G'AHHHH No, Tara, No!!!!!

[quankanne]

Is it possible to rekindle that unconditional love after carrying so much baggage?

 

I think the real question here is, "What are you expecting from this relationship?"

 

do you want it to go to some fairy-tale setting where all is perfect, where nothing goes wrong and everyone is "happy," or do you want the real blood and guts stuff? Understanding and accepting that the B&G version is about rolling with the punches only to come out stronger ...

 

from what you've described, you've taken a lot of hits with this relationship, and by the same token, so has she – you expected something not quite real, you know? So that when these whammies hit, you find yourself questioning the validity of the relationship based on your emotional responses to each situation.

 

a relationship cannot survive like that, there needs to be a deeper commitment – and understanding – of what it actually is: Messy, boring at times, not fun at other times, hurtful at times, but overall very much worth the investment you put into it.

 

let me ask you this: The unconditional love you've got for your kids, does that extend to everything they could possibly get into? For instance, if the older one developed an uncontrollable drinking habit, would you still love that child unconditionally? What if it went a step further and this child chose one night to drive while drunk and took out a life or three while on the road ... do you think your love is unconditional even though you are mortified by what's happened and grieving not only over the loss of those lives, but your kid's life, too, because now there's a manslaughter charge involved? What if that child was a pedophile? Would you abandon him/her?

 

all these things are "what if" situations that are parallel to what you and your wife have been through; If you can love your kid through those episodes of bad behavior, simply because they're a part of you, why is it less possible to love the person you created those kids with? Anger and frustration and hurt are all fine, but when you leave them out of the equation, do you have the willingness to focus on the love?

 

if you're willing to protect and carefully help that love to grow bigger than what the collective heartache has been, then yes, your marriage is more than worth salvaging.

[TaraMaiden]

I accept that. But it's not an unchangeable thing.....

[LittleTiger]

I'm afraid you don't know what unconditional love is, if you think you have to rekindle it.

Unconditional Love means loving somebody, caring for them, caring about them, accepting them for everything they think, say and do, and letting them live their life without feeling beholden to you. In other words, your Kindness, Compassion and Love, has no conditions attached to it.

This is the kind of Love that should be cultivated for everybody, no matter who they are to you.

However, we too should have boundaries in order to protect ourselves from manifesting Idiot Compassion. Simply because you have Unconditional Love for someone, it doesn't mean you have to Like them, or agree with what they do.

 

His Holiness the Dalai Lama has over the decades developed, cultivated and manifested Unconditional love and Compassion for the Chinese.

he wouldn't take tea with them, any time soon, though.....

 

Great post TaraMaiden. I loved, and do still love, my ex husband unconditionally. Obviously it didn't stop us getting divorced!

 

To the OP, this sounds like a mid life crisis. Kids are grown and gone and you're left alone with a spouse who's probably very different from the person you married.

 

That baggage you talk of? You picked it up together. You married your wife expecting to be with her for life, you've forgiven her mistakes and you still 'care for her very deeply'? What's wrong with picking up the baggage and sharing the load - for the rest of your lives - as you promised you would 25 years ago?

[TaraMaiden]

G'AHHHH No, Tara, No!!!!!

Well.....

 

It's possible.....Op hasn't denied it.

 

yet......

[Simon Attwood]

OK, here's my take on it.

 

When we crave unconditional love in an adult relationship, it is because, in some way and to some extent, our early development years lacked that unconditional love from the provider, the mother.

 

To crave unconditional love is a craving of the infant, if an adult craves unconditional love then their inner infant, their inner baby, has not had it's need for unconditional love fulfilled by the mother.

 

Healthy, adult love should always be conditional, otherwise it risks becoming very dysfunctional.

 

This point of view may seem hypocritical coming from me

[TaraMaiden]

It's also incorrect.

You think The Dalai Lama craved Unconditional Love from his partner? (I know, he doesn't have one.....!)

 

The whole point of Unconditional love is that it's not conditional on the relationship.

 

And no, there are not 'different types' of Unconditional Love. Love is either Conditional, or it isn't.

[Simon Attwood]

It's also incorrect.

 

 

no it's not

 

 

[UnifiedFieldTheory]

Well.....

 

It's possible.....Op hasn't denied it.

 

yet......

 

The reason I haven't denied it... yet... is because I had to leave my computer for a meeting. From what you say... "yet"... you expect that I would? Maybe I can come up with some shabby examples why I'm very much in love, but as you pointed out - maybe don't like (as a person) so much.

 

1) emotional detachment from our marriage

2) throws off my dreams and feelings as childish

3) her passive / aggressive and controlling nature

 

And by the way - there's no affair. I will say that months ago I was contacted by an old flame. I put the end to the conversations after 2 phone calls. I could see the slippery slope in front of me and I value my strength of conscience and the promises I've made. Here's where it gets sticky. With her affair and points one through three above, I feel as though she has broken her promises to me. I'm simply asking myself - are all bets off? What can I find in the relationship that I can build from something worth having?

[UnifiedFieldTheory]

Great post TaraMaiden. I loved, and do still love, my ex husband unconditionally. Obviously it didn't stop us getting divorced!

 

To the OP, this sounds like a mid life crisis. Kids are grown and gone and you're left alone with a spouse who's probably very different from the person you married.

 

That baggage you talk of? You picked it up together. You married your wife expecting to be with her for life, you've forgiven her mistakes and you still 'care for her very deeply'? What's wrong with picking up the baggage and sharing the load - for the rest of your lives - as you promised you would 25 years ago?

 

Yes, this baggage we picked up together. As for sharing the load, it feels to me right now that I'm getting the lion's share. If I didn't expect to be with my wife for life, why would I be here? But... maybe Tara knows because I think is has much to do with Buddhism "expectation breeds disappointment". So, maybe I've expected too much. I'm exploring the question.

[Trimmer]

About me... married over 25 years. Still care deeply for my spouse. We've both made mistakes along the way - her infidelity, my rage when I found out - money troubles, all solved now - my own issues from being abused as a child, which I'm working on - her issues of emotional detachment, which she's working on now.

This is a tangent, but it's part of your original post...

 

Why was your rage in finding out about your wife's infidelity a mistake?

 

Now, if you are talking about your behavior - actions you took as a result of that rage, then maybe some of that was a mistake, I grant you that.

 

But do you really consider the emotion you felt upon learning of her infidelity "a mistake?"

 

My take on the "unconditional love" angle is more like romanago's - you can't equate the love for a child with love between partners, from the perspective of saying: my love for my partner should be unconditional like the love for my children is. These are different-enough that I don't even think the question is "should you have it?" as you asked in your subject line, I think the question you need to start with is: "is it even possible to have it?" ... and I don't think they are the same thing.

 

Also, all due respect to Tara and his Holiness the Dali Lama, but I don't think the kind of love ("unconditional" or otherwise) that he developed for the Chinese was precisely analogous to either the love that links husband and wife, or the "unconditional love" that links parent and child. Not close enough that it's a compelling guide for this poster's situation in his marriage, anyway...

[TaraMaiden]

My take on the "unconditional love" angle is more like romanago's - you can't equate the love for a child with love between partners, from the perspective of saying: my love for my partner should be unconditional like the love for my children is. These are different-enough that I don't even think the question is "should you have it?" as you asked in your subject line, I think the question you need to start with is: "is it even possible to have it?" ... and I don't think they are the same thing.

 

Also, all due respect to Tara and his Holiness the Dali Lama, but I don't think the kind of love ("unconditional" or otherwise) that he developed for the Chinese was precisely analogous to either the love that links husband and wife, or the "unconditional love" that links parent and child. Not close enough that it's a compelling guide for this poster's situation in his marriage, anyway...

 

You make the point yourself, Trimmer... the 'Love' you have for your children, is completely different to the love you have for your partner. It has to be.

 

But Unconditional love is in a class of its own. It encompasses all. it outclasses all, and is incomparable.

You cannot have different types of "unconditional " love. Unconditional love is precisely that. It places no conditions upon who has it, why or in what measure.

 

You can have different types of Love, all of which hinge on different circumstances, people and conditions. Sure.

But Unconditional love cannot be bracketed into the same criteria.

[UnifiedFieldTheory]

This is a tangent, but it's part of your original post...

 

Why was your rage in finding out about your wife's infidelity a mistake?

 

 

 

I was verbally abusive - for a long time - after I found out. How did I find out? W bragged about it in public. That was behavior that I really had trouble tolerating. To me, she deserved to be called every derogatory name in the book.... and that was a mistake on my behalf. I moved into another room in the house for over a year - completely cutting off any affection or intimacy. It's a "two wrongs" thing.

[Trimmer]

I was verbally abusive - for a long time - after I found out. How did I find out? W bragged about it in public. That was behavior that I really had trouble tolerating. To me, she deserved to be called every derogatory name in the book.... and that was a mistake on my behalf. I moved into another room in the house for over a year - completely cutting off any affection or intimacy. It's a "two wrongs" thing.

Understood.

 

I just wanted to be sure that you didn't consider the emotion itself to be, somehow, a mistake.

 

What we choose to DO with our emotions, often end up to be mistakes, I agree.

[Woggle]

It is one thing to love a spouse if they were crippled or if my wife developed a condition that made her lose her hair but nobody should just stay and put up with being mistreated. If she cheated and then bragged about it maybe divorce is the answer. If a spouse purposely mistreats you then that is where you draw the line.

[Trimmer]

You make the point yourself, Trimmer... the 'Love' you have for your children, is completely different to the love you have for your partner. It has to be.

 

But Unconditional love is in a class of its own. It encompasses all. it outclasses all, and is incomparable.

You cannot have different types of "unconditional " love. Unconditional love is precisely that. It places no conditions upon who has it, why or in what measure.

 

You can have different types of Love, all of which hinge on different circumstances, people and conditions. Sure.

But Unconditional love cannot be bracketed into the same criteria.

 

I hear you, but I'm still uncertain about this "there's only one kind of unconditional love" thing.. The love that I feel for my children is limited to them, and does not carry over in the same quantity or quality to other children or living things, so since it is not unbounded and all-encompassing, would you not consider that "unconditional love?"

 

Perhaps we are using the same term - "unconditional love" to describe different things... But then, I realize that's exactly the point here - I believe I understand you to be saying that it is one and only one thing, and that there is no "other kind" from the all-encompassing love-of-world-and-everything-and-everyone that I believe you are describing.

 

All I can say is, I have a love for my children that is a very different love than any I have had before - so different that I put it in a class all by itself, and I believe most people would use the term "unconditional love" to describe it, and would understand what I meant when I used the term to describe it myself.

[LittleTiger]

You make the point yourself, Trimmer... the 'Love' you have for your children, is completely different to the love you have for your partner. It has to be.

 

But Unconditional love is in a class of its own. It encompasses all. it outclasses all, and is incomparable.

You cannot have different types of "unconditional " love. Unconditional love is precisely that. It places no conditions upon who has it, why or in what measure.

 

You can have different types of Love, all of which hinge on different circumstances, people and conditions. Sure.

But Unconditional love cannot be bracketed into the same criteria.

 

I'm totally with Tara on this one.

 

Unconditional love is unconditional love.

 

It's not romantic love, friendship love, family love, parental love or whatever names you choose to give the many different kinds of love that exist.

 

It stands alone.

 

I feel unconditional love for a number of people (and for my animals). Some of those people I also feel other kinds of love for.

 

To use my feelings for my ex husband as an example. We knew each other for 20 years before we got together as a couple. I loved him when we were children (puppy love and friendship love?) and soon grew to feel unconditional love. We remained friends through our teens and twenties, the puppy love disappeared but the friendship love stayed, as did the unconditional love. Then we got together and the friendship love turned into romantic love. The unconditional love continued. Now we are apart, I no longer feel romantic love but I still love him unconditionally - nearly 40 years after we met.

[LittleTiger]

Yes, this baggage we picked up together. As for sharing the load, it feels to me right now that I'm getting the lion's share. If I didn't expect to be with my wife for life, why would I be here? But... maybe Tara knows because I think is has much to do with Buddhism "expectation breeds disappointment". So, maybe I've expected too much. I'm exploring the question.

 

I agree that most people expect too much from marriage and long term relationships and that will almost certainly lead to disappointment.

 

I'm a realist and often get called a pessimist but, to me, optimists are just setting themselves up for a fall.

 

If you still want to fight for the marriage your best bet is to sit down and talk to your wife. Tell her exactly how you're feeling - no holds barred. What have you got to lose?

[Trimmer]

I'm totally with Tara on this one.

 

Unconditional love is unconditional love.

 

It's not romantic love, friendship love, family love, parental love or whatever names you choose to give the many different kinds of love that exist.

 

It stands alone.

 

I feel unconditional love for a number of people (and for my animals). Some of those people I also feel other kinds of love for.

 

To use my feelings for my ex husband as an example. We knew each other for 20 years before we got together as a couple. I loved him when we were children (puppy love and friendship love?) and soon grew to feel unconditional love. We remained friends through our teens and twenties, the puppy love disappeared but the friendship love stayed, as did the unconditional love. Then we got together and the friendship love turned into romantic love. The unconditional love continued. Now we are apart, I no longer feel romantic love but I still love him unconditionally - nearly 40 years after we met.

OK - still trying to understand here - Tara's point that unconditional love "encompasses all", and her use of the Dali Lama as her example was leading me to understand her description of it more as a state of mind and spirit - an enlightenment, if you will. A love of life, a love of all, unconditional, unbounded, encompassing all. Sounds hard to reach, but blissful.

 

But yours is limited to specific beings. So is that really unconditional?

 

Yes, I realize that we are now pretty much just arguing semantics - what are we going to call this thing we have a term for, and what is the meaning of this term that we use. I'm not doing it just for the sake of argument, but to try to understand what we're talking about here.

[TaraMaiden]

I hear you, but I'm still uncertain about this "there's only one kind of unconditional love" thing.. The love that I feel for my children is limited to them, and does not carry over in the same quantity or quality to other children or living things, so since it is not unbounded and all-encompassing, would you not consider that "unconditional love?"

No. That is a familial love. if you have this love for your children, but not others, it's not UNconditional, is it?

I take nothing away from the love you have for your children. Nothing at all. In fact, I commend and admire it. I think it's wholly right and entirely understandable, and I'm completely with you on it's incomparability with the love you have for others.

 

Perhaps we are using the same term - "unconditional love" to describe different things... But then, I realize that's exactly the point here - I believe I understand you to be saying that it is one and only one thing, and that there is no "other kind" from the all-encompassing love-of-world-and-everything-and-everyone that I believe you are describing.

Unconditional Love is balanced by wisdom and Compassion. It knows no limitations or provisos. It is the kind of Love, for example, Gandhi held in his heart for all mankind, even though he made some pretty harsh decisions, and kicked a few asses. But his affection and compassion for everyone, made him a unique individual. Unconditional Love does not Judge but can criticise. It has no bias but can weigh up options.

 

All I can say is, I have a love for my children that is a very different love than any I have had before - so different that I put it in a class all by itself, and I believe most people would use the term "unconditional love" to describe it, and would understand what I meant when I used the term to describe it myself.

I do understand you. No justification, explanation or clarification is either necessary or expected. You're right, and I see where you are coming from.

 

 

But again, to use him as an example, Gandhi would just as soon taken a bullet for an Englishman, as for a person from India, or for a stranger as well as a family member.

You may have seen the film by Attenborough, starring Ben Kinglsey?

At one point Gandhi goes on hunger strike, in an effort to bring a Muslim/Hindu conflict to an end. A Hindu man confesses to having killed two Muslim adults, leaving an orphaned boy. Gandhi exhorts the man to adopt the boy and to love him as his own - but to bring him up as a Muslim.

 

Does this explain my standpoint, better?

[mem11363]

We have 3 kids - I agree that you give kids unconditional love - at least until they reach a certain age. Giving a "spouse" unconditional love is almost always a train wreck.

 

I absolutely love and am in love with my W. And she with me. If you asked her how committed I am she would say "totally". If you asked her whether I would tolerate an open ended amount of bad behavior/cheating/emotional abuse she would laugh at you and say "why should he, and no of course not he would leave me".

 

And the same is true in reverse. And that is a big reason I respect her. If she loved me unconditionally - that would seem weak and very not sexy.

 

I love her a huge amount but I have some very real boundaries. For instance I demand a certain amount of respect for me and my needs. I just do. I don't have to explain it or justify it with some complex argument. Nor does she. I am kind and loving and supportive because I want to be. Sometimes I sacrifice to do stuff for her just to be a good partner and vice versa.

 

 

I'm new here, and many of the threads and comments have helped me gain a new perspective. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my marriage - something has to change.

 

So... now, I have a simple question. I base it on the feelings I have for my children (both grown and on their own). I love them unconditionally, They could do anything, and I would still love them. Suppose I don't feel this way about my spouse?

 

About me... married over 25 years. Still care deeply for my spouse. We've both made mistakes along the way - her infidelity, my rage when I found out - money troubles, all solved now - my own issues from being abused as a child, which I'm working on - her issues of emotional detachment, which she's working on now.

 

But along with those mistakes is a beautiful past. Wonderful memories of raising our children, cooking dinner together, taking vacations, decorating our house, romantic dates (I'm an incurable romantic) - all beautiful stuff.

 

But those troubles have taken the spark away. That unconditional love isn't there like it is for my children. I'm seriously considering separation and possibly divorce. We've done well together, but it may be time to move on.

 

Is it possible to rekindle that unconditional love after carrying so much baggage?