It's over...

[Lizzie60]

James.. I understand your PoV.. but let's say... I'm a erotic masseuse () .. the MM comes to see me.. who am I to question him or lecture him.. etc... I know.. I know.. this is not an A.. but it can generate into one..

 

They come to see me.. not the other way around..

 

On a few occasions (one of my experiment ) I hit on a MM (on vacation)... he swore he had never cheated on his wife... or would never do it.. ha-humm.... guess what.. OK.. this time I hit on him.. but I didn't go to his room to get him.. he came to mine. He could have just forget about the whole thing and stay with his wife..

[donnamaybe]

On a few occasions (one of my experiment ) I hit on a MM (on vacation)... he swore he had never cheated on his wife... or would never do it.. ha-humm.... guess what.. OK.. this time I hit on him.. but I didn't go to his room to get him.. he came to mine. He could have just forget about the whole thing and stay with his wife..

The kind of guy who WOULD cheat on his wife is also the kind of guy who would lie to anyone and everyone.

[someday]

I couldn't edit the above post, so....

 

You know, threads are jacked all the time here. I believe that my thoughts are relevant and related to the Liz's thread...as she's offered the info and I was curious of her POV. But that's ok, I'll just move along. No problem

[OWoman]

The kind of guy who WOULD cheat on his wife is also the kind of guy who would lie to anyone and everyone.

 

Only a subset of MM who cheat on their Ws lie to "anyone and everyone". Others lie only to their Ws.

 

I know for a fact none of my MMs had ever had, or had considered having, an A previously. But, when the opportunity and the terms were presented to them, they agreed. Why should it be different in the case of Lizzie's "experiment"?

[JamesM]

James.. I understand your PoV.. but let's say... I'm a erotic masseuse () .. the MM comes to see me.. who am I to question him or lecture him.. etc... I know.. I know.. this is not an A.. but it can generate into one..

 

I would agree, but it is different than if you knew that he was getting enough sex at home per him. Does that mean you share the blame? Maybe not. Does that mean that you are enabling him in his addiction? Yes.

 

They come to see me.. not the other way around..

 

I know and that is why I say you do not carry the blame.

 

OK.. this time I hit on him.. but I didn't go to his room to get him.. he came to mine. He could have just forget about the whole thing and stay with his wife..

 

Your argument works IF he would have cheated with anyone and not if he cheated with you only because you tempted him. Did he seek it out, or did he only follow through with it after a few beers and your enticing words and gestures...and whatever else you did to the poor unsuspecting feller.

 

The kind of guy who WOULD cheat on his wife is also the kind of guy who would lie to anyone and everyone.

 

Disagree. Many a man who gets into an affair would never dream of lying about anything. And oddly enough, many in affairs never have to lie about the affair because the issue never comes up. Some men who cheat if asked "Are you cheating on me?" would feel obligated to say yes. Many men simply avoid having that question asked.

 

Hiding an affair does not mean that the man will lie about everything.

[OWoman]

Disagree. Many a man who gets into an affair would never dream of lying about anything. And oddly enough, many in affairs never have to lie about the affair because the issue never comes up. Some men who cheat if asked "Are you cheating on me?" would feel obligated to say yes. Many men simply avoid having that question asked.

 

Hiding an affair does not mean that the man will lie about everything.

 

Thank you James!

 

When a MM ( not implying you're a WS, but you are M and a man...) says that, it might be more credible than when an OW says it. When we say the exact same thing, we get told "well you would say that because he's brainwashed you and you can't even recognise his lies anymore!" Even if we had independently verified facts long before we even spoke our first words to him... But hey, there you go. The medium is the message...

[donnamaybe]

Disagree. Many a man who gets into an affair would never dream of lying about anything.

Yeah, okay. They NEVER lie to their OW or their spouse.

[JamesM]

The kind of guy who WOULD cheat on his wife is also the kind of guy who would lie to anyone and everyone.

 

Yeah, okay. They NEVER lie to their OW or their spouse.

 

I responded to your first comment which said that a WS would lie to anyone and everyone. I disagree.

 

However, I do agree that they would lie to their spouse to cover up their affair. And they MAY lie to the OW, but many don't need to. The OW knows that they are married and accepts that to some degree.

 

Yet the best hidden affair is the one in which the WS never has to lie, simply because the BS never suspects that there is an affair. If no affair is suspected, then the WS can avoid telling a lie.

[donnamaybe]

Any guy who LIVES a lie filled life (cheater) would have more of a propensity for lies to come out of his mouth, no matter WHO he's tellin' 'em to. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[JamesM]

Any guy who LIVES a lie filled life (cheater) would have more of a propensity for lies to come out of his mouth, no matter WHO he's tellin' 'em to. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

 

Stick to it, honey.

 

BUT....is the MM who cheats actually telling a lie by breaking a vow? If he meant it with his whole heart at the time and then later broke it, did he actually tell a lie?

 

Not sure that I could say yes.

 

Does it then mean that anyone who lies is more inclined to break his marriage vows?

 

Not sure that I could say yes.

 

And does it mean that he is more inclined to lie to his boss then say the man next to him?

 

Not sure that I could say yes.

 

And does it mean that forevermore none of his words can be trusted?

 

Not sure that I can say yes.

[donnamaybe]

Stick to it, honey.

 

BUT....is the MM who cheats actually telling a lie by breaking a vow? If he meant it with his whole heart at the time and then later broke it, did he actually tell a lie?

 

Not sure that I could say yes.

 

Does it then mean that anyone who lies is more inclined to break his marriage vows?

Now you're just being silly. A lie to a phone bank employee about, say, paying a bill on time (the check's in the mail when they are going to just put it in the mailbox later that afternoon) has NOTHING to do with a promise of fidelity made to your life partner. It's like telling your wife her butt does NOT look fat in those jeans. A little white lie. There's a WORLD of difference between that and carrying out a deceitful act like cheating that requires forethought, planning, and then execution and THEN lying about it or ommitting the truth.

 

Not sure that I could say yes.

 

And does it mean that he is more inclined to lie to his boss then say the man next to him?

 

Not sure that I could say yes.

 

And does it mean that forevermore none of his words can be trusted?

 

Not sure that I can say yes.

Yes. When someone is a cheater, that act carries with it a plethora of situations in which a person MUST lie in order to "get away" with what they're up to. When they are lacking THAT MUCH in integrity, yes - they will have more of a propensity to be a liar in any aspect of their life. You won't change my mind. I've seen guys like this in action. I'm happy to say, for the woman I've spoken of before who is beautiful, sexy, and "the best wife ever" (according to her cheating POS H), she is carefully planning her exit from her M to that sneaky, lying scumbag.

[Lizzie60]

And to add to what James said...

 

A woman who withhold sex just because she's too tired.. and doesn't care much about her husband in that department.. is she lying?

 

Not sure I'd say no..

[donnamaybe]

And to add to what James said...

 

A woman who withhold sex just because she's too tired.. and doesn't care much about her husband in that department.. is she lying?

 

Not sure I'd say no..

Sorry, but that made absolutely NO sense.

[Lizzie60]

Sorry, but that made absolutely NO sense.

 

 

Sorry but I think it does make a lot of sense...

[donnamaybe]

Sorry but I think it does make a lot of sense...

Of course YOU would.

[White Flower]

So.. all the BS out there.. one advice:

 

If you ever find out about your spouse's affair.. do NOT tell him/her how you find out.. unless, of course, you catch them in the act..

This is a prime example of how OP contribute in helping BS. I'm sure this goes unnoticed and thought I would point it out.

 

Nice to see you posting again Lizzie.

[JamesM]

And to add to what James said...

 

A woman who withhold sex just because she's too tired.. and doesn't care much about her husband in that department.. is she lying?

 

Not sure I'd say no..

 

Sorry, but that made absolutely NO sense.

 

Yes it does.

 

 

Is it okay for a spouse to withhold sex and yet demand sexual fidelity from her partner?

 

Is it only cheating if a person gets sex elsewhere? Is it not cheating and breaking the marriage vow when a person says that he or she will be faithful and therefore sexual with his or her partner...and then withholds sex?

 

I think so.

 

As one who has been there too often, I can say that the pain from the rejection is not easy to bear. I doubt that it is the same as a betrayal with another person, but yet it certainly is incredibly frustrating to cherish that vow while the partner belittles it secretly by withholding sex.

[White Flower]

James, as always, my hat's off to you for remaining the ever faithful partner in a situation like that. I'm always in awe of you.

[MizzBlue72]

HUGS Lizzie.

Hope all is still well on your end of the world.

You do go to show that OW have feelings too. I think some should realize that. Take care doll!!

[Lizzie60]

This is a prime example of how OP contribute in helping BS. I'm sure this goes unnoticed and thought I would point it out.

 

Nice to see you posting again Lizzie.

 

 

Hahaha.. thanks for pointing it out.. like you said it probably went unnoticed..

[Lizzie60]

Yes it does.

 

 

Is it okay for a spouse to withhold sex and yet demand sexual fidelity from her partner?

 

Is it only cheating if a person gets sex elsewhere? Is it not cheating and breaking the marriage vow when a person says that he or she will be faithful and therefore sexual with his or her partner...and then withholds sex?

 

I think so.

 

As one who has been there too often, I can say that the pain from the rejection is not easy to bear. I doubt that it is the same as a betrayal with another person, but yet it certainly is incredibly frustrating to cherish that vow while the partner belittles it secretly by withholding sex.

 

Again James.. well said!

[donnamaybe]

Yes it does.

 

 

Is it okay for a spouse to withhold sex and yet demand sexual fidelity from her partner?

No. It made NO sense, because that doesn't involve lying. It involves a lack of caring for their partner.

 

And of course it's not okay, but that's NOT what we were talking about, so the sidetracking ain't workin' folks. I didn't note anywhere in this thread where this MM claimed he wasn't getting any at home. And then there's the example of Lizzie's young former MM where he did admit he was getting it all the time but still snuck around and lied to his spouse to hide his extracurricular activities.

 

Cheaters who put their instant gratification above all else, including above the feelings of the one person they vowed to love and "honor," are dishonest, lack integrity, and yes - probably lie ALL THE TIME. It's their way of life as demonstrated by their dishonest behaviors.

 

End of story.

Edited September 16, 2010 by donnamaybe

[JamesM]

No. It made NO sense, because that doesn't involve lying. It involves a lack of caring for their partner.

 

Actually, it CAN and DOES involve lying. "I have a headache" or "I am tired" or "I just don't feel good" are all comments that are lies covering up the real reason...whatever it may be. Avoiding the real reason allows the withholder to keep going on as usual and it keeps the power of control with the one who doesn't want sex.

 

Oh yes, it really does involve lying. And in many/some cases it involves preplanning...how to avoid sex with the partner. (My own wife has admitted to staying up later to avoid having to say no to sex on a number of occasions.) Betrayal? Yes, in the sense that what was once promised at the altar of love now is no longer honored.

 

 

And of course it's not okay, but that's NOT what we were talking about, so the sidetracking ain't workin' folks. I didn't note anywhere in this thread where this MM claimed he wasn't getting any at home.

 

Agreed. This MM according to Lizzie gets plenty of sex. But I think this started when we heard someone say that all cheaters lie to all people.

 

Cheaters who put their instant gratification above all else, including above the feelings of the one person they vowed to love and "honor," are dishonest, lack integrity, and yes - probably lie ALL THE TIME. It's their way of life as demonstrated by their dishonest behaviors.

 

Again, disagree. Obviously, they don't lie all of the time...even you would agree. But IMO obviously they don't lie in situations that are not connected to the affair. They may lie to cover the affair. Unfortunately that is a given.

 

But back to withholders of sex. Isn't it also using dishonest behavior when that person avoids and evades intimacy with their spouse because the sexless one wants what he or she wants and is not concerned about what the partner wants? Is this putting their immediate satisfaction above that of their partner? Should it not break their heart that the partner being refused sex must live in emotional and physical frustration as a result? Is not this being dishonest? And isn't it dishonest and uncaring when the person seeking a good sexual relationship cannot even hold a discussion as to WHY the sex is being withheld?

 

Of course, it is not an open "cheating" or an open dishonesty as is an affair. And withholding sex is something that is borderline acceptable because we all assume that the person who wants sex is going about it all wrong and rarely assume that the person withholding sex may simply be doing out of selfish spite.

 

Affairs are not a good thing. But there is a distinction between the person who is simply addicted to the feelings that sex gives and the person who craves what is being withheld at "home."

 

IMO a general judgment against all "cheaters" is wrong without having walked in their shoes. Yes, the affair is a betrayal and wrong, but understanding what drove that person to this option may help us determine why he or she threw away that promise made. Perhaps he did throw it away without feelings for his spouse, but perhaps it was done out of desperation.

 

End of story.

 

This is a never ending story...especially for all of those who must live it.

[donnamaybe]

Sorry. Like I already said, you won't change my mind. Someone with that HUGE of a personality flaw (a gargantuan lack of integrity) has a MUCH higher propensity to lie in general than others.

 

End of story (IMO).

[Meaplus3]

I'm sorry Lizzie. Not sure how I miss your thread. Hope your doing ok.

 

 

Mea:)