jester Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Part of the problem about discussions of religion is that they frequently generate more heat than light. Unlike sex, which most of us have experienced and can discuss based on common and shared experience, religion does not have many unifying experiential themes. The biggest division is between those with faith in the existence of some transcendent entity, and those without; those who believe that a doctrine is the Word from some transcendent entity, and those who do not; and, those who believe that ethics and the good life require faith and adherence to the Word or other revealed doctrine, and those who do not. Those of us who have not made, or cannot make, the required leap of faith, who believe that the Koran and Bible are good literature (well, at least the Old Testament), that God is Dead and that Jesus was a minor Jewish Prophet , cannot usually have constructive conversations with Believers about these foundational matters. Without a shared paradigm, no meaningful dialogue is possible. There's no right or wrong--just an unbridgeable chasm. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by UCFKevin Ah ha. I was hoping this would be said by someone. I had said it before. If some biblical writings are OBVIOUSLY fabled stories and fake...then why believe any of them at all? If you're looking for a history book, don't open the old testament. None of the stories in the Bible are 'fake', they simply aren't accurate historical chronicles. All of the stories have a religious truth, that one can choose to extrapolate, if they are so inclined. If it's a common thought that there WAS no Garden of Eden, that was all just hokum, then how far off a thought would it be that, in that line of reasoning, there was no Jesus? Extremely far off. The New Testament isn't a collection of metaphors, and while one could argue that Noah didn't exist, it takes a special kind of idiot to pretend Jesus didn't. Whether or not Jesus was the son of god is a matter of faith, but he certainly existed. It wasn't that long ago, and there are nonchristian sources that confrim his existence and execution. Originally posted by jester Without a shared paradigm, no meaningful dialogue is possible. I disagree. All it takes is a willingness to listen to both spectrums, and respond accordingly. Link to post Share on other sites
jester Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 All it takes is a willingness to listen to both spectrums, and respond accordingly. Dyer, I can listen to you until the cows come home, but if I do not believe, if I have not made that leap of faith, in God, the divinity of Jesus and the Bible as the word of God , nothing will change. At most, I can respect your beliefs, and not interfere with them. I cannot, however, because they conflict with my own core beliefs, agree with them and adopt them as my own . Sometimes tolerance , and a little sense of humor, is the best one can hope for in discussions like this. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by jester Dyer, I can listen to you until the cows come home, but if I do not believe, if I have not made that leap of faith, in God, the divinity of Jesus and the Bible as the word of God , nothing will change. For me, the nature of debate is in the discussion, not the outcome. I'd much rather have a good discussion that leads to certain discovery on both sides, than you to cave in and say "OH! I GIVE UP! GOD EXISTS! HE LOVES ME DAMMIT!"--that's an unrealistic goal, and one I would hope no one's bent on obtaining. I'm concerned more with the discussion than the outcome. If you don't change your beliefs one iota, the means still justify the ends. Link to post Share on other sites
UCFKevin Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 It wasn't that long ago, and there are nonchristian sources that confrim his existence and execution. Ahhh true...however...this may not be a good thing to bring up, the story of Jesus is NOT unique or original, there are much older civilizations that have basically the same exact story. David Icke, a British conspiracy theorist, is under the impression that history as we know it is basically BS, that the world is much older than we know it, that the Illuminati is behind everything, and that there was no Jesus. It IS indeed a hugely farfetched claim, but...there are folks who believe this stuff. I honestly am not quite sure what I believe. I believe, or hope rather, that there is a God, I'm kind of up in the air about Jesus, though. I have a strong tendency to question everything. That's either good or bad, depending on how you look at it. Link to post Share on other sites
lattimershotgun Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 wow the spell check just erased my whole post. it was like 3 paragraphs.. sweet Link to post Share on other sites
jester Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Always remember to copy your post before spell checking. That happens alot. Sorry to hear. Link to post Share on other sites
lattimershotgun Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 http://www.religionisbull****.com i know some of u might think this site is bull****, but it has alot of great points. Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 I have posted this before in another thread. Just repeating. "I believe that God or the concept of god is something that we as human beings are not ment to understand or will never understand. You can quote scriptures and ask all the questions you want or try to find scientific proof. In the end you will still be left with more questions or just not understand. For some people this is incomprehensible. With God we are trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. Faith in God is believing in the unbelievable." Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 It's a lot easier to believe in Jesus than it is God--I think we even have DNA of his blood on the shroud of Turin. Jesus was a historical figure, just like muhammad. His divinity is up in the air, a matter of faith, but he was definitely a real person. Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Actually Dyer, and this is only my personal opinion.......either Jesus was EXACTLY who He said He was....or He was the biggest Liar and Con Artrist in the world. There can be no middle ground. What do you think? Link to post Share on other sites
Darkangelism Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Jesus did exist, but that doesnt make him any more then an ordinary person. I don't hate religion, i used to, but that was just as bad as what i believe established religion to be. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Ryan was the strongest atheist i have ever seen Ryan would be the first to tell you he's agnostic, not atheist. I'll repost this link for those who might be interested in the intersection of religion and science. It's high-end physics, but the article's understandable and the concepts accessible. http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html#synthesis Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by Arabess Actually Dyer, and this is only my personal opinion.......either Jesus was EXACTLY who He said He was....or He was the biggest Liar and Con Artrist in the world. There can be no middle ground. What do you think? I've heard it said that he's merely a true, non-messiah prophet who needed to assert his soveirgnty to the kingdom of god (what you call conning) in order to get across his message. Of course, that's not an issue for me, I believe he's the Christ. Jesus did exist, but that doesnt make him any more then an ordinary person. Some have faith, you do not. It's a shame you see that as a weakness, especially since I've seen little to indicate you've given this any study or research. I have all the respect in the world for those who don't respect religion, but because they came to that conclusion with a bit of thought, not because it's the easy way out. Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by Darkangelism Jesus did exist, but that doesnt make him any more then an ordinary person. I disagree. Either He was EXACTLY who He said He was....or He was the world biggest LIAR! There is no science or theology to smooth it over. Either you believe Him or you don't. I'm not making a judgement on someone's personal belief. I'm just saying there isn't a lot of room for fence sitting. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 how come so many people kill each other over religion? I mean its like I hate you because some guy who died 600 years ago tells me that what some other guy who died 5000 years ago is wrong This is SUCH a myth. Go read the SIPRI Yearbook, World In Conflict, and the Armed Conflict Report. Go read some International Relations texts. The principal causes of war have been struggles over money, power, and land. Civil wars arise when one group of any type attempts to deny rights to another group. Sometimes, it is a religious group that denies rights to another group, but that is not the fault of the religions, but of some morons who abuse religion to turn people against each other. Take a degree in International Affairs and specialize in conflict - like I did - and then you'll be in a position to discuss the causes of war. Link to post Share on other sites
Darkangelism Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 It wasnt like i didnt learn about other religions, i went to a unitarian universalist church til I was 18. They are pretty liberal and had us learn about as many other religions as possible, now i didnt like their liberalness, so i am agnostic/atheist depending on various factors in my current beliefs, yet I am very conservative, by that i mean a republican, so i am a beast that i have never seen someone else with my same views. I hope I don't sound intolerant, cause i am not, my best frends in HS were all catholic and in various christian groups. My other friends were jewish, my roomate is jewish. Link to post Share on other sites
Darkangelism Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme how come so many people kill each other over religion? I mean its like I hate you because some guy who died 600 years ago tells me that what some other guy who died 5000 years ago is wrong This is SUCH a myth. Go read the SIPRI Yearbook, World In Conflict, and the Armed Conflict Report. Go read some International Relations texts. The principal causes of war have been struggles over money, power, and land. Civil wars arise when one group of any type attempts to deny rights to another group. Sometimes, it is a religious group that denies rights to another group, but that is not the fault of the religions, but of some morons who abuse religion to turn people against each other. Take a degree in International Affairs and specialize in conflict - like I did - and then you'll be in a position to discuss the causes of war. I was not saying all war. But jihads, crusades, WW2 to a point. European colonialism and Isreal palestine. Reglion is a sense of identity and some use it as a way to hate and kill. Sports are the same way to a lesser extent. Currently you are better educated on the subject i will say, cause i specialize in Civil War history(which wasnt over religion) Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Everyone has a right to believe what they WANT to believe as long as their heart is at peace with it. And if their hearts are not at peace......they can always reconsider. When all else fails...get alone and ASK HIM! I think a Mighty God would not deny you an answer if He truly existed. What you find out.....might surprise you. It can never hurt to ask. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 DA, it's not that you disagree with me, it's that you don't know enough to back up your contentions. People don't fight wars over God, they fight wars over themselves. People use religion to JUSTIFY going to war for personal interest (all major religions are guilty of such actions) because pretending your political, personal, or economic gains are the will of God is a great way to motivate soldiers. If the Crusades were about God, we would have donated all the money we got from it to Charity. People fight wars for gain, or to defend what they have gained. Link to post Share on other sites
yllany Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Originally posted by saintfrancis I was raised Catholic and I don't recall ever being taught that if you don't accept Jesus you will go to Hell. sf SF, I was raised a Catholic too. And believing in Jesus as being the Christ was the meat and potatoes at the core of what I was taught. [color=red] Eternal suffering in the Big Microwave Oven was the punishment for all capital sins, including the worst of all: heresy. (and that included not accepting Jesus as One's Saviour) [/color] Maybe I was in some strange secret branch of Catholicism ? Link to post Share on other sites
BBQsLeese Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 God is in each and every one of us. I was raised as a Catholic, so I had this image of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit embedded into my brain.I strayed from it because it wasn't fulfilling for me. As I get older, I've come to realize that God is there. He is a higher power that I have a personal relationship with.No one can say it is wrong or right.I have been betrayed by a few people in my lifetime.There was no way of getting even or returning the pain that they afflicted on me.Besides, I am not that way although I gave it alot of thought.So I simply forgave them inwardly and moved on with my life trying to better myself.I would say God-what did I do? Why me?Nevertheless, I had to go on.Knowing that I had to be strong for my daughter, as a single parent, I had to let things go and stay focused on staying positive. I recited the Serenity Prayer to myself whenever I felt negative.When good things happened, and they did, I thanked God because praying kept my mind strong.I believe God helps us when we make an effort and commit to being the best person possible. I refer to it as "God has my back" We have a 50/50 relationship-the 401Kplan. He matches what I put in to it. Sometimes more. We just have to develop our own way of understanding it all. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts