Came to the conclusion...

[CLOUD_ONE]

After months of being depressed and a lot of thinking, I have come to the conclusion that I am not happy at all in my marriage. I also don't believe my wife is very happy either.

 

We have only been married for 3 years and dated for a few before then, though the majority of our married relationship has just been horrible. At this point I believe the only thing that is really keeping us together is our mutual religious values, which I am at the point of going against for both our sakes.

 

We have tried counseling, both marriage and through our church, and although it helped temporarily to open up some lines of communication, things just slip back into being cold and emotionless for both of us soon after.

 

That just being a very brief background to what is going on, I am wondering how to proceed in the best way possible? I really have come to the absolute conclusion that I want a divorce, and I want to do it quick. I don't think it would be very fair to either of us to keep on like this. We have no kids, very few financial assets or debt, so at this point it would be the "cleanest" right?

 

I guess more specifically, I am wondering how to go about telling her of my decision of wanting a divorce and also acknowledging how I know this will be a hard thing to do because of our values?

 

Any advise would be great....

[GorillaTheater]

Divorce may be the answer for you, I don't know. But something I noticed was this statement "things just slip back into being cold and emotionless for both of us soon after". Is it a deal where one of you feels like the other person is being cold and emotionless, and as a reaction adopts the same mindset? I hope I don't need to tell you what a death spiral that is.

 

You can certainly get a divorce if you want, but here's my advice: stop being reactionary and lead the marriage. Regardless of her moods, you be happy, calm and collected. Figure out what you want in your marriage and lovingly ask your wife to join you in getting there. Establish your boundaries, about respect, sex or whatever else you feel strongly about and calmly call your wife on attempts to cross those boundaries.

 

Either she'll follow your lead or she won't. But what have you got to lose?

[CLOUD_ONE]

Thanks for the advise GT.

 

When I mentioned being cold and emotionless, it is not a one sided thing and the other reacts, it is more so just something that happens to both of us, it really is hard to explain. We both do not show much emotion to each other beyond being polite. The reason I label it as "cold and emotionless" is that no matter what anyone can tell me, I really don't believe it should just be polite in a marriage, and I also am not going to lie to myself and say that I believe it should always be rainbows and butterflies either, but I know it should be more than what my wife and I have.

 

As far as leading my marriage, I have been from the start and still do to this day. I am not a reactionary persona at all, and she really isn't either. The "moods" that either of us have aren't sprung based off of what the other is giving off, it really is just the mood in the marriage. Boundaries have been set and discussed, and yet although we try to adhere to each others requests as best we can, it has not helped at all to make things better.

 

This is why I have decided that, yes, I will lead the relationship still, and will lead us to not be in one as deemed needed for both of us to not only be happier and better people, but to also to not be people complacent and stuck in a marriage due to our religious values. I have seen a lot of those couples, and I don't want that for her or myself. I just don't know the best way to go about it without going full circle.

[You Go Girl]

Question: What kind of passion did exist in the beginning, during dating?

[CLOUD_ONE]

Question: What kind of passion did exist in the beginning, during dating?

 

 

During dating there wasn't what I would call passion. Seeing that we both come from very Christian families and backgrounds, while dating it was more of a casual thing. We SEEMED to get along a lot better back then and have more in common, but I have come to the conclusion that was only due to the infatuation with one another. Those moments that you "like" someone and want to hang out with them and see them more often, you tend to be a different person. I don't mean that we both were completely different people at the time, but we both did curve and bend our personalities and interests to accommodate each other more so than we would normally.

 

And yes, the question is why not do that now if it worked so well before? Well, it didn't work so well. To me, it is like we were lying to ourselves during that process. It is like we wanted to get to know each other better, only to not know each other in a way. This is the root of what screwed us from the start.

 

As far as passion while being married....as sad as it sounds, there really was none. Being married for a little over 3 years, we haven't been intimate in 2.5 of those...at all.

[GorillaTheater]

As far as passion while being married....as sad as it sounds, there really was none. Being married for a little over 3 years, we haven't been intimate in 2.5 of those...at all.

 

Ouch. For most people I think, sex is one of the primary ways to establish and maintain a strong emotional connection, so yeah, big problem.

 

And your reply to my post was very helpful. I see guys drifting along in their marriage because they don't want to take the lead, but that doesn't sound like where you're at. Seems like you've been reasonably proactive.

 

Your third post was tough. Sad to say, but it just doesn't seem like you love each other. Am I right?

[TaraMaiden]

This is a bit like a skinny decaf Cappuccino with no chocolate powder or sugar.

 

We call it a ...

 

"What's the point?"

[CLOUD_ONE]

Ouch. For most people I think, sex is one of the primary ways to establish and maintain a strong emotional connection, so yeah, big problem.

 

And your reply to my post was very helpful. I see guys drifting along in their marriage because they don't want to take the lead, but that doesn't sound like where you're at. Seems like you've been reasonably proactive.

 

Your third post was tough. Sad to say, but it just doesn't seem like you love each other. Am I right?

 

 

Thats a hard one....

 

I do love her, though I guess I am not in love with her? Not sure if that is really how to put it. I know my decision will hurt her, as much as I would rather it not, I know it will. That is why I am looking for advise as to the "best" way to go about this may be.

 

As far as if she loves me, I don't know. I think she does to a certain degree, but I mainly think she is in this to this point because of the values more than anythign else.

[CLOUD_ONE]

This is a bit like a skinny decaf Cappuccino with no chocolate powder or sugar.

 

We call it a ...

 

"What's the point?"

 

 

I'm not quite following you.....

[TaraMaiden]

.....Of staying, if neither of you are happy, there's no intimate connection, you feel the way you do, and all you do is spark off each other, and B*tch?

 

It's only been 3 years and already this relationship is jaded, stale, uncomfortable, and past its sell-by date....

 

Cutting each other loose to pursue a happier course of action might just be the best thing you could do, given that the benefits and advantages of counselling are temporary and short-lived.....

 

Do you see anything, anything else at all, that might just work if you give it one good whack?

 

I mean, you both have to want to, and you both have to 100% want to, and you both have to 100% want to, 100%.

 

Is there something in this marriage you both deem worth working all-out for?

 

What's the point?

[GorillaTheater]

Have you and your wife discussed divorce?

 

As for how to tell her you want one, I doubt that there's a good way, though some are alot better than others. I'm not sure any way beats sitting down with her and calmly telling her that the marriage is broken and you don't see it improving despite your mutual attempts to fix it, and that despite the pain for both of you you think it's time to end it and move on.

 

Do I need to ask if there's anybody else on the part of either of you?

[CLOUD_ONE]

.....Of staying, if neither of you are happy, there's no intimate connection, you feel the way you do, and all you do is spark off each other, and B*tch?

 

It's only been 3 years and already this relationship is jaded, stale, uncomfortable, and past its sell-by date....

 

Cutting each other loose to pursue a happier course of action might just be the best thing you could do, given that the benefits and advantages of counselling are temporary and short-lived.....

 

Do you see anything, anything else at all, that might just work if you give it one good whack?

 

I mean, you both have to want to, and you both have to 100% want to, and you both have to 100% want to, 100%.

 

Is there something in this marriage you both deem worth working all-out for?

 

What's the point?

 

 

Oh, okay, i'm following you now...

 

Though I do know this already, and have come to the conclusion that yes, what is the point. The reason for my post is asking advise on the best way to go about it and bring it up....especially with the factors of being in it due to religious values and all....

[CLOUD_ONE]

Have you and your wife discussed divorce?

 

As for how to tell her you want one, I doubt that there's a good way, though some are alot better than others. I'm not sure any way beats sitting down with her and calmly telling her that the marriage is broken and you don't see it improving despite your mutual attempts to fix it, and that despite the pain for both of you you think it's time to end it and move on.

 

Do I need to ask if there's anybody else on the part of either of you?

 

 

Well, I can only speak for my self 100% that there isn't on my side. I am 99% that there isn't on hers as well though.

 

I know there isn't really a good way to go about this. I am concerned as to how too and address the religious values, while being as straight forward as possible and not seemingly beating around the bush about it where she assumes we should"try harder"...

[TaraMaiden]

Look, being an ex-RCatholic myself, I can see how much of a stranglehold religion can have on its followers.

But the main factor I can see is that you would be staying together through religious constraints, not those of love, affection, endearment, companionship and mutual satisfaction.

Religion is never an easy path to adhere to, but if we adhere to it, it should be for the right reasons, and not the wrong ones.

If we stay with someone it should be because of devotion to them, not devotion to God.

 

That's just a bad aim.

[TaraMaiden]

(. . .) I know there isn't really a good way to go about this. I am concerned as to how too and address the religious values, while being as straight forward as possible and not seemingly beating around the bush about it where she assumes we should"try harder"...

 

1 Corinthians 13.

 

If your marriage does not match up to this famous, oft-quoted and much vaunted Biblical passage, then your Christian marriage is a sham.

 

Perhaps the easiest answer would be to speak to a Lawyer/solicitor, get them to draw up the paperwork and say "For the love of God, let's end this."

 

No irony, pun or ridicule intended.

Because for the love of God is not a good enough reason for staying together.

[GorillaTheater]

Well, I can only speak for my self 100% that there isn't on my side. I am 99% that there isn't on hers as well though.

 

One of the reasons I ask is, if you're a Christian, adultery appears to be the only sanctioned cause for a divorce. I'm sorry, I honestly don't know what to tell you about that.

[CLOUD_ONE]

TM - Yes, very good point. I myself still hold to my values, but still do not see how I can stay married in this situation just because of them. It is more so a struggle as to how to go about it without crushing hers I guess. That is very important as well to me.

[CLOUD_ONE]

One of the reasons I ask is, if you're a Christian, adultery appears to be the only sanctioned cause for a divorce. I'm sorry, I honestly don't know what to tell you about that.

 

 

Regardless of whether or not it is sanctioned through my religion, I have still come to this point. I am not trying to justify my decisions at all. I know its against it.

 

I am not looking to justify it to her, but I am also not looking stay in this because there is no justification religiously. That would not be fair to both of us, and I believe she wont come to this conclusion bc of our religion, so I must....

[willowthewisp]

Regardless of whether or not it is sanctioned through my religion, I have still come to this point. I am not trying to justify my decisions at all. I know its against it.

 

I am not looking to justify it to her, but I am also not looking stay in this because there is no justification religiously. That would not be fair to both of us, and I believe she wont come to this conclusion bc of our religion, so I must....

 

I am not a Christian...yet...it is something that I am still pondering at the moment, more so recently than ever before, perhaps b/c of the suffering I have been through with my X leaving me. You do seem to be speaking about religion a lot though, so I will add this if I may?

 

Have you asked God? Have you prayed, have you read your Bible? Have you asked for guidance on what God would like you to do about your marraige, whether to stay or go, how to work through it if he wants you to stay? All I can say is that the Bible states that God hates divorce, the two reasons for divorce it gives are adultery and abandonment (whoch many beleive includes abuse), anything else, turn to God.

 

Not trying to preech, but as you have said you are religious thought i would ask.

[CLOUD_ONE]

 

I am not a Christian...yet...it is something that I am still pondering at the moment, more so recently than ever before, perhaps b/c of the suffering I have been through with my X leaving me. You do seem to be speaking about religion a lot though, so I will add this if I may?

 

Have you asked God? Have you prayed, have you read your Bible? Have you asked for guidance on what God would like you to do about your marraige, whether to stay or go, how to work through it if he wants you to stay? All I can say is that the Bible states that God hates divorce, the two reasons for divorce it gives are adultery and abandonment (whoch many beleive includes abuse), anything else, turn to God.

 

Not trying to preech, but as you have said you are religious thought i would ask.

 

 

I am religious, and you are pretty accurate on all your accounts of translation. I am in no way sanctioning or saying my decision is what God want at all. In fact, based on the Bible and teachings its quite the opposite. There are other ways to look at it though. Like you had mentioned regarding the reasons, abandonment is one of them as stated. Now, does this mean physical or emotional? Or both? Emotionally we are abandoning each other at this point.

 

I would rather not start a debate on religion so please lets all stay away from that if possible. The reasons I state the religious values as a factor is only because, well, it is. I am not asking whether is it right or not based on that, but how to proceed with that in mind.

[TaraMaiden]

May I ask.... when you got married, or as you were approaching marriage (and I am asking 'you' specific, as opposed to you 'both'), did you at any time, at any point, for whatever reason - harbour any doubts, misgivings or hesitation ?

 

Did you once wonder to yourself whether marriage was a good idea, or whether you "should be doing this..."...?

[CLOUD_ONE]

May I ask.... when you got married, or as you were approaching marriage (and I am asking 'you' specific, as opposed to you 'both'), did you at any time, at any point, for whatever reason - harbour any doubts, misgivings or hesitation ?

 

Did you once wonder to yourself whether marriage was a good idea, or whether you "should be doing this..."...?

 

 

Of course I personally did. I don't think there is anyone that can say there were 100% sure of such a decision. If you are wondering whether there were MAJOR doubts, hesitation and such....no.

[TaraMaiden]

When my husband and I got married, (and I was still heavily involved with RCatholicism, the church and all the gubbins) I know I had absolutely no doubts at all, ever, either before or even after, and especially not during.

I know for a fact my husband didn't either. we went to the extent of having a Nuptial Mass, communion, blessing and the lot.

 

What I'm saying is that, as a devout and serious Christian (and I applaud you for the consideration you are giving this factor), if you were committed to the sanctity of Holy Matrimony and everything that entailed, then by rights, you should have felt it was absolutely 100% right to be doing what you were doing, in the eyes of God.

 

That you had doubts would lead me to suggest (I know, bit damn late, thanks for that!) that marriage in the frame of mind you were in was a mistake.

 

What made you ignore your misgivings?

 

I'm just trying to make you think about the whole picture here, start to finish....

[CLOUD_ONE]

When my husband and I got married, (and I was still heavily involved with RCatholicism, the church and all the gubbins) I know I had absolutely no doubts at all, ever, either before or even after, and especially not during.

I know for a fact my husband didn't either. we went to the extent of having a Nuptial Mass, communion, blessing and the lot.

 

What I'm saying is that, as a devout and serious Christian (and I applaud you for the consideration you are giving this factor), if you were committed to the sanctity of Holy Matrimony and everything that entailed, then by rights, you should have felt it was absolutely 100% right to be doing what you were doing, in the eyes of God.

 

That you had doubts would lead me to suggest (I know, bit damn late, thanks for that!) that marriage in the frame of mind you were in was a mistake.

 

What made you ignore your misgivings?

 

I'm just trying to make you think about the whole picture here, start to finish....

 

The concerns I had where more due to both my wife and I coming from divorced parents, and other relational issues we have always had in our separate lives. Put that on top of being "young" and yes, there were concerns.

 

As far as correct in God's eyes, well I don't know how to answer that really. Of course at the time I believed it was. And so it goes, if it WAS right in his eyes then, then it still is now. I know this. Although I know this doesnt mean I feel this, or she does for that matter.

[TaraMaiden]

The concerns I had where more due to both my wife and I coming from divorced parents, and other relational issues we have always had in our separate lives. Put that on top of being "young" and yes, there were concerns.

I have to say here, I'm not trying to pick holes, criticise or ridicule your deep-felt faith. I'm really (to use a well-known metaphor) trying to sort the grain from the chaff....I'm trying to clarify what's what, in all of this....

 

As far as correct in God's eyes, well I don't know how to answer that really. Of course at the time I believed it was. And so it goes, if it WAS right in his eyes then, then it still is now. I know this. Although I know this doesnt mean I feel this, or she does for that matter.

Here's the disparity.

You believe it was, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was, because you add the provisory 'IF' with regard to the matter in God's eyes.

 

In my opinion (and I'm sticking my neck out here,) had it been Right in God's eyes, I can't help but feel He would have made you feel as assured it was, in your minds also.

A devout Christian feels God's Grace, and feels God's blessing during times like these.

 

My husband and I divorced in 2005, after 23 years of marriage.

Much as I knew, and was 110% convinced our marriage was right at the time, and that we had received a full blessing in the eyes of God, this certainty became unsustainable over time.

Things change, people change, circumstances change, minds change, attitudes change, beliefs change. Life IS change.

 

Consider your marriage like a river.

Gaze on it.

Turn away.

now look at it again.

It's the same river.

But it's different.

 

You cannot see the same river twice. It's moved on, and what looks the same is in every essence, different.

 

The separation you feel now, is not of the marriage you had, then.

The separation you are contemplating now, is of the marriage as it stands, now.