A question on the loss of trust...

[turnstone]

I think in my relationships I've been arrogant enough to assume the man I've chosen to spend time with would never do anything that would hurt me and therefore I've trusted them very easily. Now, I find myself in a situation where I am at the other end of the scale and because my judgement has proved so flawed, I no longer trust myself never mind anyone else, in the context of relationships.

 

I'm sure this is just a phase and it'll pass. Hopefully with continued work on myself and my life, my trustometer will be more balanced and I'll trust again, but this time with a healthy amount of speculation.

[seren]

I think the breaking of trust was one of, if not the worse thing about the A. I had huge trust issues and H knew this, knowing he disregarded the effect the breaking of trust would have on me, hurt unbelievably. I had always trusted him, absolutely, not just with other women, but with me, my heart and my 'self'.

 

I blindly believed that he wouldn't break that trust, that he understood the gift of my trust was not easily given and that he would cherish it - yes I am an old romantic and yet very assertive and sometimes on the surface can appear very confident. H knew a lot of the outside me was smoke and mirrors and a defence shield. It was the hurting the vulnerable me that has taken the longest to recover from. I am not really sure if that innocent me and the believing in the whole nine yards of love and romance will ever come back and it is this that hurts H the most too.

 

We have long got past the mechanics of the A, it is now about him trying to reconcile with himself, how he allowed himself to break my trust, my blind faith. He says he felt special because I loved him, because I trusted him and in his words, he blew it, big time for nothing.

 

He does everything he can to make it right, and in most respects we are all hunky dory - but we both miss the old me, not the old us, the new us is so much better - I trust him with other women, with my heart? yes I do, but with all of me, no, there will always be a bit of me that I keep back so I can never, ever be so devastated again.

[Snowflower]

I think the breaking of trust was one of, if not the worse thing about the A. I had huge trust issues and H knew this, knowing he disregarded the effect the breaking of trust would have on me, hurt unbelievably. I had always trusted him, absolutely, not just with other women, but with me, my heart and my 'self'.

 

I blindly believed that he wouldn't break that trust, that he understood the gift of my trust was not easily given and that he would cherish it - yes I am an old romantic and yet very assertive and sometimes on the surface can appear very confident. H knew a lot of the outside me was smoke and mirrors and a defence shield. It was the hurting the vulnerable me that has taken the longest to recover from. I am not really sure if that innocent me and the believing in the whole nine yards of love and romance will ever come back and it is this that hurts H the most too.

 

We have long got past the mechanics of the A, it is now about him trying to reconcile with himself, how he allowed himself to break my trust, my blind faith. He says he felt special because I loved him, because I trusted him and in his words, he blew it, big time for nothing.

 

He does everything he can to make it right, and in most respects we are all hunky dory - but we both miss the old me, not the old us, the new us is so much better - I trust him with other women, with my heart? yes I do, but with all of me, no, there will always be a bit of me that I keep back so I can never, ever be so devastated again.

 

seren, I wish every potential WS was required to read what you wrote here before they embarked on their affair. Maybe it would wake them up to the devastation they would be causing if they went down that path.

 

I can relate to your post very well and I think many BS who have chosen to reconcile can relate as well. This was beautifully written.

 

As for the part I bolded, this is what I worry about in my relationship with my husband...that last little part. I've often told my H that I can trust him...I don't worry that the second he is out of my sight that he is trying to get together with someone else. He worked hard to rebuild that type of trust.

 

It is my faith in him that is broken and I have realized during our separation right now that it remains largely broken. It's that sense of him "being there for me no matter what" that has not come back and I fear that it might not ever return.

 

But then again, maybe with more time even this will be healed for us.

[Snowflower]

But we trust that we both want our marriage to work, and want our partner to be happy. We both trust that though we are each flawed that together we can work out whatever problems arise. We trust our mutual love.

 

This is really good, silktricks. I haven't thought about trust in this way before. I think I can apply this to my relationship...we've been through a lot of hard stuff that many people would have divorced over. Yet, we weathered it all...we still love each other...even our current separation which will likely be coming to an end in the not so distant future.

 

Thank you for the food for thought; I will definitely need to think about this for awhile.

[turnstone]

seren, I wish every potential WS was required to read what you wrote here before they embarked on their affair. Maybe it would wake them up to the devastation they would be causing if they went down that path.

I don't believe it would make any difference how well the WS knew their actions would hurt their spouse.

 

The affair 'fog' is really very thick (maybe in more ways than one...) and a WS is so caught up in what they want, they're unable to even contemplate they may be caught out as this would certainly put the dampener on their fantasy.

 

I think the breaking of trust was one of, if not the worse thing about the A. I had huge trust issues and H knew this, knowing he disregarded the effect the breaking of trust would have on me, hurt unbelievably. I had always trusted him, absolutely, not just with other women, but with me, my heart and my 'self'.

 

I blindly believed that he wouldn't break that trust, that he understood the gift of my trust was not easily given and that he would cherish it - yes I am an old romantic and yet very assertive and sometimes on the surface can appear very confident. H knew a lot of the outside me was smoke and mirrors and a defence shield. It was the hurting the vulnerable me that has taken the longest to recover from. I am not really sure if that innocent me and the believing in the whole nine yards of love and romance will ever come back and it is this that hurts H the most too.

 

We have long got past the mechanics of the A, it is now about him trying to reconcile with himself, how he allowed himself to break my trust, my blind faith. He says he felt special because I loved him, because I trusted him and in his words, he blew it, big time for nothing.

 

He does everything he can to make it right, and in most respects we are all hunky dory - but we both miss the old me, not the old us, the new us is so much better - I trust him with other women, with my heart? yes I do, but with all of me, no, there will always be a bit of me that I keep back so I can never, ever be so devastated again.

 

You see, this is something I just don't get. If you're that hurt and that damaged, why would you stay? I just can't reconcile those feelings and that loss with continuing to have good times with the person who made me feel that way and who took away that part of me. Can the good times in a relationship ever be good enough to outweigh being made to feel so bad? I guess they must be and I'm glad for you, I just can't understand it.

[porter218]

The "lack of trust" has nothing to do with who my partner is...for me, it's a realization that it can happen, period.

 

What are your thoughts? Is the lack of trust specific to the one person who cheated on you? Or is it an awareness that you have to safeguard any relationship you're in?

 

For me the lack of trust after my xH's A wasn't generalized at all. It was specificaly a lack of trust in him and not the world at large. I know it can happen in any relationship but I am capable of trusting other men now that my M is over even with the knowledge that they could do it too. However I was never capable of trusting the xH again because I knew he would never fully change. I don't feel the need to "safegaurd" any relationship I get into because quite honestly that is more effort then I am willing to put in. If I feel that is needed then I just rather not even try.

[Summer Breeze]

I think it's a bit of both.

 

When my exH cheated on me the trust in him was lost. He betrayed me once and I knew full well he was capable of it. I knew that no matter how hard I tried or what he promised I could never trust him again. I don't think he's a bad person and I didn't believe that because he had betrayed me he would do the same to someone else but I had given him the shot and he blew it.

 

Blind trust is nonexistent to me.

[seren]

I don't believe it would make any difference how well the WS knew their actions would hurt their spouse.

 

The affair 'fog' is really very thick (maybe in more ways than one...) and a WS is so caught up in what they want, they're unable to even contemplate they may be caught out as this would certainly put the dampener on their fantasy.

 

 

 

You see, this is something I just don't get. If you're that hurt and that damaged, why would you stay? I just can't reconcile those feelings and that loss with continuing to have good times with the person who made me feel that way and who took away that part of me. Can the good times in a relationship ever be good enough to outweigh being made to feel so bad? I guess they must be and I'm glad for you, I just can't understand it.

 

I can only speak for myself Turnstone, I understand why H had the A, it had more to do with his feelings toward himself than his feelings toward OW or our M, or me. I have said before, I didn't know H during the time just before the A or during it. That part of H I wouldn't have had back, that part of H was and is so alien to me and incidentially, with hindsight, to H - had he remained that H, I would not and could not trust him or reconcile with him.

 

I accept that there is an element of H's behaviour at that time, that I will never understand and we had been together for a very long time, perhaps I was 'blindly trusting' but then I had never cause to be otherwise, at least in my marriage. I knew at the moment he told me about the A, that he regretted his actions, it was a WTF moment, I could see it in his face and it was as though he had woken up - H was pretty screwed up before the A (Iraq mostly) and is a classic conflict avoider, I take some of the blame for that as I am a fixer and face it person, in some ways I suppose I had enabled the conflict avoidance behaviour in him.

 

Without seeing and experiencing his actions since D Day it is hard to convey how much our marriage has changed from what it was just before the A, or how hard H has worked to show remorse (not guilt) and how much I too have changed and ultimately our marriage too. I cannot imagine being with anyone else, indeed, I wouldn't want to. So, I asked myself, do I, can I, forgive this A? Can I ever, truthfully and realistically trust this man again? Had the answer to any of those been No, then I would have left, no question. I don't walk around lamenting or crying or any of that, our life is very good and I laugh far more than I cry.

 

I weighed up all that we had (not material) all that we had gone through and experienced with what the A actually was and meant, and, having established boundaries, realised that we could work together to fix it. Breaking my trust is and was a huge obstacle, but not one that we couldn't work together to repair. The alternative, to leave, would have made us both dreadfully unhappy and frankly, I think that you only live once and that I love H and that, at least in my life, was worth the effort. Glad to say it was the same for H. I am not saying this applies to all, ir just works for us and it really does work for us - but, blind faith? no, not for anything or anyone (except my son). The rest is a work in progress.

[spriggig]

So, we only give our love to those who give their love back? And we trust that they will not give their love to anyone else as long as they profess love for us? And, if they do choose to give their love to someone else, we will then choose to be hurt and angry and bitter and never give our love to anyone else again? This is the train of thought when you view your love as a special gift to be bestowed upon the worthy.

 

The ideal is to simply radiate love and those who choose to bask in it do so for as long as they want to.

 

So, when you're trying to answer these seemingly thorny questions of trust and love, simply consider the ideal and aim for that. Yes, love and trust unconditionally, regardless of what others have chosen! Because you are in control of you--no one can hurt you in this context. You may choose to feel hurt, but it's your choice always.

 

You have to give up the idea that you are entitled to be loved because you are loving.

[turnstone]

Actually spriggig, my exH wasn't giving his love to anyone, but he was abusing my life without my knowledge or permission. That lost him the right to any of my consideration or respect just as anyone putting my life in jeopardy would lose.

 

Not only is it impossible to love unconditionally (apart from a parent's love for their child), its also unrealistic and doesn't help yourself or the person being loved. For us to love we need respect, we need to know the person we're loving has standards and boundaries because without them they have little self-worth and that is key to being loveable and hence being loved.

[JRoy]

But my question is this...is the trust that's lost specific to the cheater, or is it an "eye opener" that makes you realize that ANYONE could cheat on you?

 

Is the lack of trust specific to the one person who cheated on you? Or is it an awareness that you have to safeguard any relationship you're in?

 

Loss of trust is specific to the one who cheated on me.

In all other relationships, it is on a case by case basis. I trust someone until there is a reason (some kind of red flag) not to.

 

I chose to believe my wife after her A. At the time, I just wanted my wife, 3 small children and marriage back.

 

After a period of years and a suspected 2nd A, and now coming to realize my wife is (in my opinion) a pathological lier. I no longer believe or trust her.

[2.50 a gallon]

My XW cheated, and like Woggle I extended the umbrella of distrust over all women. Over the next 15 years I met and dated several who game me no reason not to trust them and went out of their way to ge me to trust them. It was a wall that no one could penetrate, until I met this long legged lady.

 

And then it was not that she gave me any reason to not trust her as she was honest when she described her ideal man, which was the Stevan Segal tough guy. And it just so happens that when we started dating that she became available when she separated from her long time live in BF, who just happened to be a 6' plus, semi-pro boxer with a pony tail. I was pushing my into my late 40's, she was one year shy of 40, and yet attractive enough to catch the eye of this 32 year old hunk. Age had caught up with her BF and he had trade gym drugs for street drugs, and they had separated so that he could clean up his act, and then possibly reunite.

 

My, I am short and skinny, and she was honest in that she had chosen me to get back into the dating scene, because of all of the other prospective OM's I was the least likely she would fall in love with. And like James Garner in "Support Your Local Sheriff" who keeps on repeating that he was on the way to Australia, she kept telling me that she was expecting to get back together with her BF.

 

In short I had little chance of winning and should enjoy the time we had together. But my heart didn't feel that way as cupid had nailed me. My choice was to get out early with the least amount of hurt, or carry on and build up a bigger hurt. Actually, to break up with her I would have had to fight myself. So I chose to stay and fight for her heart.

 

As for trust, I had to go whole hog and trust her blindly, as to show any doubts by mistrusting her would be unmanly and a detraction in her eyes, as I was coming at her from a place of confidence. Does that make any sense.

 

That was 15 years ago, and I thanked her again last night for doing my laundry. And yes I still trust her almost blindly, I am well aware that no relationship is affair proof, but I believe that I can cut down the odds by working on our relationship daily, such as thanking her for doing my laundry.

[allhopelost]

I trusted my FWW completely and without any thoughts ever entering my mind even once in over twenty years about her straying. It was not in her nature and went against the values and beliefs that were the foundation of my love for her.

 

Fast forward to today…

 

I no longer have the capacity to trust. I do not trust one word of anything that anybody tells me. I monitor my FWW’s location constantly via satellite tracking, I have installed recording devices in all my vehicles, control all of the finances, and I demand every receipt for every purchase she makes. Her paycheck is direct deposited and she is on a very small cash allowance, and has absolutely no privacy from me. In social situations if there are people around, particularly men who resemble her AP, she holds her head down and does not look at them, and quickly comes to my side assuming a very submissive posture out of respect for my feeling and the immediate trigger response that occurs if she even looks at them.

 

Those are the conditions of our reconciliation. I control every aspect of our household. I control almost every aspect of her life. I arrange for her to get her annual physical exams and make sure that she is tested for STD’s at every one. If that controlling ever becomes intolerable for her, she knows where the door is. If she ever were to test positive for any STD, now or in the future, there is the door.

 

It has been 13 months since D-Day, and the thought of relinquishing any control to her, or allowing her any of the freedoms that she took advantage of during the first nineteen years of our marriage, brings the rollercoaster of emotions back online.

 

Trust for me is like Santa Claus. We want to believe in it, and do for a time, but soon we realize it is nothing more than a fantasy construed to make little children feel good and behave.

 

I will take control over trust any day of the week.

 

Verify every word you speak or I will not listen, nor believe.

[anne1707]

All hope

 

Do you really think that level of control and power over another individual allows for a healthy, happy marriage in the long term? Whilst in the immediate recovery from Dday, I can understand the need for total transparency. But there has to come a time when more space is allowed - if you cannot trust your wife enough for that then your marriage has not recovered. To be honest, what you describe sounds like emotional abuse to me - your wife is your prisoner.

[Silly_Girl]

That sounds like a living hell for both parties. Allhope - is there really no other way? Does/did your marriage counsellor support this method?

[Owl]

Allhopelost,

 

I've got to agree with the other posters. I admit that I definitely needed my wife to take measures to rebuild my trust in her after her affair. And I think that having the ability to verify her honesty and trustworthiness for sometime after the affair was required.

 

But what you describe sounds quite extreme, and you don't appear to have any intent for this to set the stage to allow trust to be rebuilt.

 

Respectfully, it sounds like a power trip.

 

And in a relationship, power has to be shared, or there's no basis for love. No basis for honesty, or good communication.

 

If you truly feel this strongly about never trusting again...then why are you remaining married to her?

 

Where's the positive in all of this?

[little_devil]

For me it was both:

 

After my long-term bf cheated I lost omost all trust in him but also, in the process I've lost my "innocence".

 

I've never easily trusted people, but he earned my trust, in such a degree, that after omost 8 years of being together I trusted him blindly. I decided to give "us" a second chance, but it was actually a mistake. Now, two years later I found out he is doing it again (with someone else) and this time there is no room for any kind of trust.

 

I don't think I could love someone the way I loved him... that innocent, trusting love. Maybe it's a good thing (growing up) but it makes me very sad to know I will never again get to live that wonderful feeling.

[allhopelost]

With respect, the real emotional abuse is sitting there, listening to the person you have loved unconditionally your whole adult life tell you intimate details about her involvement with another man, whilst the whole time you have been together she was positioned on a pedestal, incorruptible, held in the highest of esteem, and loved more than life itself.

 

The real emotional abuse is doubting your own capacity to every truly make the one person in your life that you love happy, to be good enough again for her, in every way, constantly doubting your own ability to ever recover from being so emasculated that you would rather die than open your eyes every day. To be constantly, relentlessly compared to the OM within the confines of your own severely convoluted thoughts, to the point of impotence, is the worst possible emotional abuse that I can imagine. In addition, that it is my life. I accept that, and how I make my miserable life better is my own prerogative.

 

So respectfully, do not claim that I am, in any way, emotionally abusing anybody. My marriage and I have been thrust into this hell, and if my taking control of my situation, within the confines of my bastardized marriage can be labeled as abusive, then walk in my shoes for a while, live in my head for a while, feel like I do for a while first. Only then will I accept any criticism for the way we are dealing with the shame and humility of our situation.

 

Perhaps it is the small town mentality, or the very non-diverse location that we reside in, or the ultra conservative views that are the essence of who I am and all that I respect, that make me react the way that I am reacting. Maybe it is that I am presumed to be small minded and fail to see the big picture in healthy marital dynamics, as OWL has alluded to with the power shared comment. To me, the whole affair has been categorized on the same level as a criminal assault against me as a man, a husband, and as a person in general. Would you trust your financial future with a convicted thief? Would you trust your children with a convicted abuser?

 

I think not.

 

I am not here to boast about the perceived power trip, or give the impression that I am keeping my FWW like a prisoner, as she is free to leave any time she likes. Life is about choices. She chose to get involved with that scumbag, and she is choosing to remain at home under my conditions. I am not looking for sympathy, simply trying to share my perspectives on trust.

 

Who knows, maybe eventually if she continues to show me respect and commitment, I will open my heart to start trying to trust her again. Nothing in this world is absolute, but for the time being what we have is working for us.

 

For the record, we have been in MC consistently for the last thirteen months. Our counselor is aware of the insecurities I have and the extreme measure that I have taken to monitor my FWW. We are constantly being evaluated under his care. Within the last year, there have been significant gains in communication, specifically as far as FWW is concerned. When we first started going, she did not want to say anything. Now she commands about 40% of the conversation. We do talk at home, and are in constant communication via text messaging throughout the day.

 

What we have settled into may seem extreme to the majority of WS’s out there, but I am guessing, however, that there are a few BS’s out there that know exactly where I am coming from and probably have many of the same feelings and insecurities as I do.

[OpenBook]

I reconciled with my wife. I trust her again. I don't blindly trust her and "assume" that nothing could ever happen like that again, true.

 

Those last two sentences contradict each other, IMO. You trust her but not blindly? Kinda like a born-again virgin? Sorry, no such thing. Trust by its very nature IS blind. You can't see inside her mind, and you can't predict the future, either for yourself or for her.

 

As much as you try to control this and pin it down, Owl, it's not going to work. You can't control it. And you're not going to get the closure you seek. Can you live with that for the rest of your life?

 

But... for me that trust isn't a lack of trust IN HER. It's a realization that there's nothing special about ANY relationship that prevents it from happening. If I were to divorce and leave my wife...I wouldn't ever blindly trust any other woman either.

 

The "lack of trust" has nothing to do with who my partner is...for me, it's a realization that it can happen, period.

 

This sounds like doublespeak for "I don't trust my W, but I refuse to acknowledge it." You're dancing around the real issue with a lot of fancy words and psychoanalysis twists & turns. It's not that complicated. Either you trust her or you don't. And it sounds like you don't. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here asking questions like this.

 

What are your thoughts? Is the lack of trust specific to the one person who cheated on you? Or is it an awareness that you have to safeguard any relationship you're in?

 

Both, and neither. You can take steps to safeguard the relationship - but no relationship is ever completely safe. It's simply the chance you take when you commit to someone. It's a BLIND leap of faith. A crapshoot.

 

And it has EVERYTHING to do with the person you pick. Because they are half of the picture, you being the other half. It's the combination of both of you. The quality of the ingredients + how well they mix together = either a masterpiece or a disaster coming out of the oven.

 

Apologies if all this sounds harsh or touches a nerve with you, Owl. But you started this thread asking for people's opinions. And this is what I see.

[Owl]

No offense taken at all, Openbook.

 

The bottom line is that I originally held the blind faith that my relationship with my wife was bulletproof.

 

After having gone through what we've been through, I've realized that NO relationship is bulletproof. My relationships, your relationships...no relationship is 100% bulletproof. There's not anything magical, mystical that somehow protects a relationship just because we believe it's "special".

 

If I left my wife today, and later began a relationship with someone else (anyone else), I'd be taking that same "leap of faith" with them...I'd be taking the same risk with them that I'd be taking if I stayed in a relationship with my wife instead.

 

Part of it is indeed "who you choose" to be with. Some people are clearly more trustworthy than others. But then again...as you said, ALL relationships are a 'leap of faith'.

 

But you raise a good point about trust in general.

 

I don't trust ANYONE. I don't trust the guy driving the car in front of me, I don't trust the cashier handing me my change when I buy a coffee, I don't trust the plate in the dishwasher is clean unless I know it was run.

 

I've NEVER really been a trusting sort. Which made the betrayal for me pretty damned painful at the time...because I DID foolishly, blindly trust. Because I believed that there was something magical about "our relatonship" that would keep something like this from ever happening.

 

Now, I'm realistic. I know that the potential to be hurt exists in any relationship. My wife could indeed get involved with someone else again. Or, if I started a relationship with someone else...they could do the same exact thing. There's nothing preventing it from happening in either case. As you said, it's a risk.

 

Don't think I'm living my life in some kind of paranoid state, wondering when the next time it's going to happen will hit. Not at all. I simply realize that I'm in no more danger of it happening now than I was BEFORE, when I was blindly unaware of the possibiliity.

[JustJoe]

It's basically what I said in my first post. The loss of trust in a person (WS), can be repaired by that person (WS), by proving trustworthiness. The loss of innocence (blind faith) is usually permanent, and can almost never be restored. IMO, it's better for a person not to be a "baby duck", in the first place.

[Owl]

Thanks Joe...I wish I could have summed it up as well as you did! Great post!

[Dexter Morgan]

So one of the common themes here on LS is dealing with the loss of trust after infidelity.

 

A common post that you'll see..."Never reconcile with a cheater...you'll never trust them again!".

 

But my question is this...is the trust that's lost specific to the cheater, or is it an "eye opener" that makes you realize that ANYONE could cheat on you?

 

I'll concede that its an eye opener as far as the state of a relationship, but its more of an eye opener about the character of the person that betrayed you. and I don't want to be with someone with that kind of character.

 

 

I reconciled with my wife. I trust her again. I don't blindly trust her and "assume" that nothing could ever happen like that again, true.

 

owl, I know you have said this, and I believe you. I hope things are working out great for you.

 

But if you don't "blindly" trust, then you don't trust completely. I believe one can say that for the "most part" they trust their partner, but if you truly trusted someone, you wouldn't question anything they say or do at all.

 

 

What are your thoughts? Is the lack of trust specific to the one person who cheated on you? Or is it an awareness that you have to safeguard any relationship you're in?

 

 

to me lack of trust is specific to the person that cheated. I haven't had a problem with jealousy or trust with anyone I've dated until they have given me a reason to not trust them. and nobody I have dated gave me a reason to not trust them (except one)...it just wasn't meant to be and the relationship kind of withered on the vine.

[2long]

Like most people, I think, I blindly trusted my W would never do something so awful as cheat on me. But cheat she did.

 

That was years ago, and it 2k years 2 get past it. I'll never blindly trust her again, and I believe that's a good thing. I don't think anybody should trust blindly (the word "blind" even means "unawares" in this context, and I don't think anyone should choose 2 be ignorant).

 

Still, I think my trust for her is increasing beyond simply accepting what she is trustworthy about. I don't think it's the same as trusting blindly, by any means, but it's not simply "earned trust" either.

 

hm...

 

-ol' 2long

P.S. Owl, I think I sent you a PM a while back...

[thomasb]

.

 

But if you don't "blindly" trust, then you don't trust completely. I believe one can say that for the "most part" they trust their partner, but if you truly trusted someone, you wouldn't question anything they say or do at all.

 

 

I don't feel you should ever 'blindly trust' anyone. We are all human and as a consequence we all occasionally make mistakes. You can repair the damage from a mistake made, but you can't change the fact that it was done. Just as it is always to late to say you are sorry. The deed was done. A choice was made.

I'm glad my wife has chosen to once again trust me. But, I would never ask anyone for complete trust. I want the people I love to protect themselves with their eyes wide open.