Do the OW & BS "deserve" the same....

[silktricks]

Certainly not, everyone owns their own bad behavior. What I AM saying is that, as a man who choose to enter into an affair, I was well aware that it could end badly and that there was potential for craziness on anyone's part. An affair is a conscious decision that one should not enter without first considering the potential consequences. Not excusing bad behavior, just saying that had the affair never taken place, any resulting bad behavior on anyone's part would not have taken place either.

 

Cannot the same be said of the OW?

[Spark1111]

I absolutely was fully aware of the potential consequences prior to entering into an affair. I personally do not believe that things "just happen" in life.

 

edited to add that I do believe everyone enters into their affair consciously, whether or not they want to admit it to themselves is an entirely different story. To admit it to themselves, as an adult, would also mean having to consider the consequences. Easier to say it "just happened."

 

Well I like that!

 

Sounds to me you own your choices!

 

And that takes courage!

 

(But, IMHO, it would have been better had you owned your choice, informed your wife before the affair, and proceeded from there with your OW.....Just saying.)

[silktricks]

Gotcha!! Cheers

 

I think there's more fluffy-stuff around relationships. More "TALKING", you know, sharing, acknowledging feelings... the navel-gazing stuff has of course spilled over in to partnerships, relationships, marriages, affairs. I think in the world in general people pay more attention to that stuff. Good indicator is how many people have had/do have IC/MC these days, than 'way back when'. It's all part of the same trend.

 

I don't see any indication that AP's expect more from an ending than where there are 2 people. I have a theory that because the reader thinks 'Doh! You KNEW he was married' there's maybe an expectation that a big fat zero at the end should be acceptable to the AP, and of course it rarely is, in ANY relationship scenario.

absolutely agree.

 

Also, the OW/OM's on LS often aren't talking about a sit-down chat of 'honey, it's not working out, goodbye'. They're often talking about multiple break-ups; flip-flopping; LC/NC while MM/MW does x/y/z; playing 2 sexual/emotional partners along at once; and so on. Very rarely are the OW/OM's simply referring to a break-up in the most common sense of the word, I don't think. So it's a bit misleading, LS is.

I think I see. The problem I've got (totally personal) is that I experienced (and I've seen others on LS say they have as well) a bit of the boiler bunny scenario. There seems to be an underlying ..... well, that's to be expected... (with an adjunct of - "that's probably a lie") which really is upsetting to me. I lived through it, and did not enjoy the experience even a little bit.

 

But I get what you are saying about the flip-flopping and playing of partners against each other. That is confusing at best and cruel at worst.

[HappyAtLast]

Well I like that!

 

Sounds to me you own your choices!

 

And that takes courage!

 

(But, IMHO, it would have been better had you owned your choice, informed your wife before the affair, and proceeded from there with your OW.....Just saying.)

 

If I had been in a normal marriage, I would 100% agree with you. My wife knew, early on that I would be leaving when my last child left for school. When I met my now wife several months prior to my leaving I decided for once to do something for myself. I still own that choice.

[pureinheart]

So, I've been thinking a lot based on a few recent threads. There seem to be 2 different "camps" of thinking regarding post affair treatment of both BS & OW.

 

Camp one (call it the OW camp) says both women should be treated the same by the fWS. Both should be given equally good treatment. The fWS (assuming he went back to the BS) should never make any negative or derogatory comments about her - should not "throw her under the bus". He should give her "closure". This camp takes the stand that the MM apparently thought enough of the OW to have a relationship with her, he should treat her well.

 

Camp two (call it the BS camp) says the BS should be the complete focus of attention for the fWS. He should not necessarily say derogatory comments about the fOW, but if he does that is understandable (at least in some situations). This camps says the OW was fully aware that he was married and therefore knew of the possible consequences of having the relationship. She is responsible for having made the choice of being in the relationship and therefore should pick herself up and move along if it doesn't work out.

 

To be completely honest, I'm somewhat torn between the two camps. On the one hand, I feel that all people should be treated respectfully. On the other hand she is responsible for her own choice of participating in a relationship with a married man. So I "get" both camps, and a portion of me agrees with both.

 

What I guess I don't get - and is the real reason for this post is that back in my single days of dating, I didn't expect (nor did I give) hearts and flowers at the end of a relationship. If things didn't work out, they didn't work out. Yeah, the guy could have been all full of "I love you and want to spend my life with you", but sh*t happens, and I love you and want to spend my life with you can and does turn into "what was I thinking! You aren't the person I thought you were!" on a number of issues. I didn't expect him to go out of his way to break up nicely - and I guess I wasn't all that gentle with some of my breakups either. Hey, it was nice, it's over, move along...

 

So.... what's the difference or is there a difference if the romance is illicit? It appears to me (and I could easily be dead wrong and just out of the dating game for waaayyyy to long to relate) that more is expected by women at the end of an EMA then at the end of an affair.

 

BTW, this is not intended to be rude or start a flame war. I simply would like a discussion. !!

 

This is priddy much how my dating/M'ed life was also. It wasn't until exDM that I saw the "I own you label" placed upon him by his W.

 

I think there should be respect for all parties concerned regardless of the "type" of R.

 

I understand there are extenuating circumstances and will leave that at that. Having been on all sides of this fence I never once went off on anyone.

 

I wasn't offended if they didnot want "me", nor was my ego blown out of proportion if they wanted to stay, it was all good IMO as I have never had a difficult time with a lack of R's...lol...

 

I am not sure what this is...bold...it's not that I don't believe in forever, but I never place a bunch of importance on the "I love you's forever, till I die"...I understand people can change, I might do something to them that is a dealbreaker, and them me. My whole world was never lost to the point of freaking out on the AP or the S.

 

To conclude I have always maintained my own identity, yes there was an identity crisis concerning my job, but with people, no.

 

I am in the camp of live and let live, work out your mess and keep it real:)

[HappyAtLast]

Cannot the same be said of the OW?

 

Yes, certainly. But OW's often put too much of their power into the hands of their married men (mistakenly, in my opinion). If a married man leads her to believe that she is his intended future partner (similar to gaslighting his wife) he has fueled the fire, if you will.

 

Again, everyone owns their particular bad behavior though.

[pureinheart]

I absolutely was fully aware of the potential consequences prior to entering into an affair. I personally do not believe that things "just happen" in life.

 

edited to add that I do believe everyone enters into their affair consciously, whether or not they want to admit it to themselves is an entirely different story. To admit it to themselves, as an adult, would also mean having to consider the consequences. Easier to say it "just happened."

 

I agree with this on some parts. For me, after a series of traumatic events I was a mess and still trying to function, and had a great deal of responsibility. I am unable to disclose the nature of all of the traumas, although most people do not have to deal with what I dealt with.

 

I made a series of bad choices that would not have been normally made by me given the same choices were not made prior to this. I am not making excuses, although I understand now that sometimes people can go through things that alter their perception...some of them remain in this altered state after these types of traumas, I did not.

 

Would this be viable to you HAL as you seem extremely reasonable?

[BB07]

Cannot the same be said of the OW?

 

As a (majority of the time) unknowing OW and for the short time I knew......Yes. And yes I own my bad choices.

[BB07]

Also, the OW/OM's on LS often aren't talking about a sit-down chat of 'honey, it's not working out, goodbye'. They're often talking about multiple break-ups; flip-flopping; LC/NC while MM/MW does x/y/z; playing 2 sexual/emotional partners along at once; and so on. Very rarely are the OW/OM's simply referring to a break-up in the most common sense of the word, I don't think. So it's a bit misleading, LS is.

 

This is most often the scenario that plays out as evidenced by the multiple posts here about it and also as evidenced by and confirmed by the bs in my situation. It's similar to gas-lighting as done to the BS and as others have said, it's enough to make anyone more than a little nuts. Also as I've said and others have said, that doesn't excuse bunny boiler behavior. Which leads to another question.......if the AP exhibits bunny boiler behavior after DDay, I wonder if that makes it more likely that a reconciliation will be attempted? It seems from a lot of the reconciled bs here that they did deal with a bunny boiler upon DDay. Perhaps a subject for another thread.

[silktricks]

Yes, certainly. But OW's often put too much of their power into the hands of their married men (mistakenly, in my opinion). If a married man leads her to believe that she is his intended future partner (similar to gaslighting his wife) he has fueled the fire, if you will.

 

Again, everyone owns their particular bad behavior though.

So, please explain what you are saying

 

1st you state that OW put too much power in the MM's hands. Her choice, if she does so, correct?

 

Then you say he has fueled the fire by gaslighting her. Maybe so, maybe not. Possibly he believed what he was saying at the time.

So now, say he changes his mind, (anyone can do that, right?) And she goes all bunny boiler on his wife.

 

Though you say that everyone should own their own behavior, you have intimated that he should have considered the possibility of incipient bunny boiler attitude prior to the affair. That sounds to me like you are blaming him for her bad actions. At what point are her actions completely her responsibility?

[silktricks]

.if the AP exhibits bunny boiler behavior after DDay, I wonder if that makes it more likely that a reconciliation will be attempted? It seems from a lot of the reconciled bs here that they did deal with a bunny boiler upon DDay. Perhaps a subject for another thread.

It's an interesting question. In our case my husband told me about before he terminated the relationship, so we/he weren't yet aware of the coming fest.

[HappyAtLast]

So, please explain what you are saying

 

1st you state that OW put too much power in the MM's hands. Her choice, if she does so, correct?

 

Then you say he has fueled the fire by gaslighting her. Maybe so, maybe not. Possibly he believed what he was saying at the time.

So now, say he changes his mind, (anyone can do that, right?) And she goes all bunny boiler on his wife.

 

Though you say that everyone should own their own behavior, you have intimated that he should have considered the possibility of incipient bunny boiler attitude prior to the affair. That sounds to me like you are blaming him for her bad actions. At what point are her actions completely her responsibility?

 

Let me try it this way. Her actions are her responsibility. His actions are his responsibility. While he is in no way responsible for her actions, his actions could have spuured hers. Simple cause and effect. I am not blaming him for her bad actions. Her actions - her responsibility.

 

However, at the end of the day, he alone knows what he may have done to make her want to act a certain way. Her actually acting that way is on her.

 

Does that help?

[HappyAtLast]

"So now, say he changes his mind, (anyone can do that, right?) And she goes all bunny boiler on his wife."

 

Specifically to this.. there are generally consequences when one changes one's mind in life. They must always be prepared to deal with those consequences. If she is going to go bunny boiler, it should be on him, not his wife.

[HappyAtLast]

I agree with this on some parts. For me, after a series of traumatic events I was a mess and still trying to function, and had a great deal of responsibility. I am unable to disclose the nature of all of the traumas, although most people do not have to deal with what I dealt with.

 

I made a series of bad choices that would not have been normally made by me given the same choices were not made prior to this. I am not making excuses, although I understand now that sometimes people can go through things that alter their perception...some of them remain in this altered state after these types of traumas, I did not.

 

Would this be viable to you HAL as you seem extremely reasonable?

 

I do believe that people make certain choices at certain times in their lives due to their current circumstances. I am a pretty firm believer that you should actually try to avoid making choices when you are in "a bad way" (similar to when a BS does not decide the fate of their marriage on D-day).

 

As part of the aging process, we continually learn more and more about ourselves. More important than beating yourself up for some past poor choices would be to further your understanding of yourself (which seems like you are doing) to know when you should avoid making choices.

 

I think we are all capable of making poor choices, it is learning to be smart enough to hold off on actually making a life-decision until we are in the frame of mind to consider the consequences carefully that is important.

[BB07]

Yes, certainly. But OW's often put too much of their power into the hands of their married men (mistakenly, in my opinion). If a married man leads her to believe that she is his intended future partner (similar to gaslighting his wife) he has fueled the fire, if you will.

 

Again, everyone owns their particular bad behavior though.

 

I agree with HAL's statement about OW's giving mm too much power. During the time that I was knowingly the OW and a bit of my back story, sorry:eek:, (I thought I was dating a recently separated man, {yeah I know not smart} who in a few months time, told me he had to go back to the marriage but would not stay) so for a little more than a year I knew I was the OW and I don't have to tell anyone what a miserable experience that was.

 

Anyway.....during that time, the little time I had with him, was his call as to when and how. Like an idiot I didn't even pressure him for more, oh I wanted more, but his poor me stories and (all which I now know were lies), had me convinced that if I was just patient enough, it would all work out. I also had been led to believe that his short marriage was a mistake from the get go so that justified it somewhat in my mind. I know.......how stupid could I be?

 

So in summary regarding HAL's statement about OW giving all their power away. I certainly did and yes just thinking about it, makes me very angry at myself. At least I didn't let it go on for years and years. Frankly I couldn't handle it, one reason being that I had never felt more powerless in my life and that is not a good feeling at all. Back then I didn't know that there were places like LS or else my eyes would have been opened a lot sooner as to the games he played with me during that time. I thought he was such a good guy and no I didn't think he was saintly, I just thought he had made a major mistake and had gotten married for the wrong reasons and was doing the best he could to get out of it. What a dope I was uh! Then a few years later when we crossed paths again, he said he was free, and I was free, so.........there we went, me having no idea that he lied both times about being separated.

[thomasb]

Happy, I take no responsibility for OW's behavior either during the affair or after. Her choices and actions are her own. Just as my choices and behaviors were no reflection on my wife. I own them. OW was angry I believe because my wife forced her, by revealing all to everyone, to own her choices, and yeah, that definitely pissed her off. Her anger over this is why she did all the crazy things she did. And she was probably pretty mad that I didn't lose my marriage and she did. Her husband left her.

I think she believed that my wife should have hung her head and kept her mouth shut. Not my wife at all. She told everyone we both knew. And probably a few strangers too! That was her choice. She had that right. She was the one who was wronged. The only one.

[pureinheart]

I do believe that people make certain choices at certain times in their lives due to their current circumstances. I am a pretty firm believer that you should actually try to avoid making choices when you are in "a bad way" (similar to when a BS does not decide the fate of their marriage on D-day).

 

As part of the aging process, we continually learn more and more about ourselves. More important than beating yourself up for some past poor choices would be to further your understanding of yourself (which seems like you are doing) to know when you should avoid making choices.

 

I think we are all capable of making poor choices, it is learning to be smart enough to hold off on actually making a life-decision until we are in the frame of mind to consider the consequences carefully that is important.

 

LOL...anyone who has ever watched Oprah or Dr Phil show, read a self help book, been to any sort of councelling knows this, it is a basic IMO (not making life changing decisions while in trauma. I do have to say in my case there was no choice, there was just me and traumatised or not some of them had to be made and most of them were wrong.

 

Now on the other side of this horrible time in my life (there is still a little clean up, but it's not that bad:)), it's like I wondered how I even survived. BUT the flip side for anyone who can relate to this IS we are MORE than mere survivors...WE ARE WINNERS *putting on my cheerleading outfit and have pom poms in hand*.

 

I really appreciate your understanding and wisdom...you have the demeaner and class of someone who has served in the military...

[BB07]

Happy, I take no responsibility for OW's behavior either during the affair or after. Her choices and actions are her own. Just as my choices and behaviors were no reflection on my wife. I own them. OW was angry I believe because my wife forced her, by revealing all to everyone, to own her choices, and yeah, that definitely pissed her off. Her anger over this is why she did all the crazy things she did. And she was probably pretty mad that I didn't lose my marriage and she did. Her husband left her.

I think she believed that my wife should have hung her head and kept her mouth shut. Not my wife at all. She told everyone we both knew. And probably a few strangers too! That was her choice. She had that right. She was the one who was wronged. The only one.[/quote

 

And..........I disagree with your wife being the only one wronged, you did another man's wife, actually your friends wife?? So don't you think that this woman's husband was wronged also?

[pureinheart]

Happy, I take no responsibility for OW's behavior either during the affair or after. Her choices and actions are her own. Just as my choices and behaviors were no reflection on my wife. I own them. OW was angry I believe because my wife forced her, by revealing all to everyone, to own her choices, and yeah, that definitely pissed her off. Her anger over this is why she did all the crazy things she did. And she was probably pretty mad that I didn't lose my marriage and she did. Her husband left her.

I think she believed that my wife should have hung her head and kept her mouth shut. Not my wife at all. She told everyone we both knew. And probably a few strangers too! That was her choice. She had that right. She was the one who was wronged. The only one.

 

I have to disagree on this note. It sounds like your W provoked OW bigtime as a way to retaliate.

 

I have been through this MANY times as I was the BW way too many times. I personally think it is wrong to put others business along with mine out there to the world.

 

I didnot tell anyone about the A my H's had, it was noones business, I did not want to hurt his character nor OW's.

 

I know you will not agree, although I don't agree that OW deserved what she got and I don't see your W as completely innocent. This turned out to be a war between her and your W.

[thomasb]

Not a war on my wives part at all. She did what OW and I had failed to do. She told the truth. And according to the councillor full disclosure is the most effective way to kill an affair. The shame was terrible for me. I can imagine for OW also, society being as it is. I know she was shunned at work after that by the other wives.

And OWs' husband deserved the truth also. Perhaps if she had finally been honest and told him before my wife, he wouldn't have left her. Instead she started stalking my family. And also, since you weren't there I have a lot more knowledge of the events as they happened. And no, she wasn't gaslighted or told any misinformation about my feelings, ever. She knew I loved my wife.

[thomasb]

And also... If anybody hurt my character and disregarded what I knew all along was the right thing to do, it was me.

why is everyone so afraid to take personal responsibility these days? Everything is not always someone else's fault or responsibility. If you do something wrong, as I obviously did, own it. Fix it.

Edited September 30, 2010 by thomasb
spelling

[HappyAtLast]

I am all for everyone taking responsibility for their own actions. I have said it repeatedly on this thread.

 

Something is odd about your situation, Thomas. If you ended your affair, informed your affair partner, and then came clean to your wife, all great things, by the way. Why did your wife feel the need for the public humiliation? Is this typical of when an affair ends this way? I may be wrong, but somehow I thought it was more advice given in a situation when an affair is not ended, or is discovered by the spouse.

 

Regardless, no one is suggesting that your OW's actions are your responsibility. I can't help but think, somehow though, that since your wife decided to bring the whole thing public, that you are not secretly pleased that your OW is also feeling the consequences, rather than just you.

 

No need to answer, just something you may want to ponder yourself.

[xxoo]

Something is odd about your situation, Thomas. If you ended your affair, informed your affair partner, and then came clean to your wife, all great things, by the way. Why did your wife feel the need for the public humiliation? Is this typical of when an affair ends this way? I may be wrong, but somehow I thought it was more advice given in a situation when an affair is not ended, or is discovered by the spouse.

 

It seems important to me that the OW was a "friend" of thomas's wife. I'm trying to imagine how a bs could fully process and recover from the affair without the mutual friends knowing the truth about what is/was going on. I mean, can you imagine how difficult this specific situation would be for a BS? Doesn't she deserve to talk about her pain with friends, and get support?

 

Take the affair out of it. Most people, if terribly hurt by their spouse in any way, will need to reach out and seek support from friends. Most people, if terribly hurt by a friend in any way, will need to reach out and seek support from friends. In this case, the hurt was the affair. Why would this case be any different? It is the OW's (and the MM's) fault if the BS's support circle is ALSO the OW's community.

[HappyAtLast]

It seems important to me that the OW was a "friend" of thomas's wife. I'm trying to imagine how a bs could fully process and recover from the affair without the mutual friends knowing the truth about what is/was going on. I mean, can you imagine how difficult this specific situation would be for a BS? Doesn't she deserve to talk about her pain with friends, and get support?

 

Take the affair out of it. Most people, if terribly hurt by their spouse in any way, will need to reach out and seek support from friends. Most people, if terribly hurt by a friend in any way, will need to reach out and seek support from friends. In this case, the hurt was the affair. Why would this case be any different? It is the OW's (and the MM's) fault if the BS's support circle is ALSO the OW's community.

 

Yes, that does make some sense. And yes, certainly she should speak with whomever she needs to get support.

 

I may have misread Thomas post, or maybe it was just the way he worded it, but it seemed like when he said "she revealed all to everyone and forced OW... etc" sounded more like she was doing more than simply trying to get support. Seeking support for yourself is one thing, broadcasting a situation to the world is sort of another, don't you think? Two different motivations, I think. But, obviously I don't know Thomas' wife's situation, so you may very well be correct.

 

To your last question, if the BW's support system happens to also be the OW's community, then, no, there is no difference. Both women would certainly be entitled to garner support.

 

I would have to say though, to be with two women in the same social circle would not be the brightest choice a man could make.

 

edited to add... talk about not considering the potential consequences!

[donnamaybe]

I read only the opening post, so here goes: IMO, BOTH are being rudely and inconsiderately treated by the MM/MW. They are BOTH being lied to and led to believe something that is NOT their reality in the R. The one being "treated" the best here is the MM/MW - they make SURE of that.

 

This is as it relates to an A being orchestrated by your run-of-the-mill "someday I may leave him/her - it's so hard" (it's because of the kids, the house, the money, the dog, the.....) kinda person.

Edited September 30, 2010 by donnamaybe