He questions MY "commitment" ?!?

[Star_Bright]

He and his wife told the kids he is moving out and then he came to my house. At first he seemed shell-shocked but then he said it went better than he thought, his kids handled the news okay. We went to a sports bar to watch a football game and he seemed fine. Then we went to his friend's house where he's staying. He introduced me to the neighbors who are his friend's friends and who were watching his house, and they invited us over for a beer. When we went into his friend's house, I had to go use the restroom and when I came back out he was talking to his wife. I could hear her on the phone and she seemed concerned about him. She said, "I just wanted to see how you were doing" and he said he's not doing great, but it was nice to talk to his son, and then he told her he was going to "go grab a bite to eat." He hung up and said he had called to talk to his son, and then his son had said, here's Mom.

 

I guess I got paranoid because it sounded so normal, I started to wonder if he was really moving out, he had only brought one work outfit and a bag of sundries to his friend's house. I talked to him about it and he said his wife's reaction baffled him; she had been mean and cold to him before and now she seemed to be having a change of heart.

 

I said I worried that he would want to go back home, which is totally fine, but I would prefer he figure that out before we go further. He told me not to worry so much and that he loves me and wants to be with me. I figured things were probably feeling hard for him so I just shut up. I still had a lot of worries but didn't want to sit there letting us soak in them. So then we went to my house and watched another football game and went back to his friend's house to sleep because he had left his work clothes there. At one point he mentioned an event coming up in three weeks and said he would bring me, and said that by then things would be more progressed and we would be an out and in the open couple.

 

So last night was peaceful but this morning was a bit weird. He got up and showered and we hadn't had sex last night or this morning which is weird-- we've had more sex when we were apart then yesterday/this morning when we were together. Which is fine with me but it showed me that he had things on his mind. He said I move a lot at night and he kept waking up. But that overall he slept well. While he was getting ready--my clothes were at my house--I laid down on the bed because I was still sleepy. He came and laid down next to me and said not to worry, things will be fine, and then he started talking about how it baffled him that his wife sounded so different on the phone yesterday. He said the reality of him leaving is sinking in. I said maybe she had a change of heart. He said that in the past she's said he F-ed up and she can't forgive him or take him back because he would never do that if the roles were reversed. He said at one point she kept saying she couldn't be with him so he said fine he'll move out. Now she was being nice and concerned about him.

 

I just feel like so much depends on his wife's attitude and I feel that if she were to welcome him home and just forget about the A, he would want to go back. He doesn't want to do what it takes to earn her forgiveness-previously, stop talking to me or seeing me, and now, I guess basically asking for forgiveness and really acting sorry-but if she were to give in and say, okay everything is fine, just come home, I think he would. And it makes me feel like what am I doing here? This is between them. I told him I feel that he will want to go home and he said "it's way to early to be deciding that." I said, "Eventually, I mean," and he said he doesn't know. I said, I don't understand because last night he was saying that in three weeks we'd be a public couple but now he is saying it will take awhile to decide. (I can only assume he means that if his wife files for divorce, it will go fast... if not, he still has some decisions to make). He asked me if I thought he would move out from his home and start talking about divorce and tell his wife and his counselor and his friends that he was moving out, etc., if he didn't really want to be with me. I acknowledged that he had a lot to lose-- his divorce will be very expensive and he won't have his nice house and he won't live with his kids, etc. So he said all of this is proof that he loves me and will do what it takes to be with me, and he said he is taking a risk too because after all of this I could decide I don't want to be with him, six months down the road or whenever.

 

So. Here we are in limbo. It isn't fun but I am trying to be there for him and trying to stay positive.

[KarmasTestDummy]

He and his wife told the kids he is moving out and then he came to my house. At first he seemed shell-shocked but then he said it went better than he thought, his kids handled the news okay. We went to a sports bar to watch a football game and he seemed fine. Then we went to his friend's house where he's staying. He introduced me to the neighbors who are his friend's friends and who were watching his house, and they invited us over for a beer. When we went into his friend's house, I had to go use the restroom and when I came back out he was talking to his wife. I could hear her on the phone and she seemed concerned about him. She said, "I just wanted to see how you were doing" and he said he's not doing great, but it was nice to talk to his son, and then he told her he was going to "go grab a bite to eat." He hung up and said he had called to talk to his son, and then his son had said, here's Mom.

 

I guess I got paranoid because it sounded so normal, I started to wonder if he was really moving out, he had only brought one work outfit and a bag of sundries to his friend's house. I talked to him about it and he said his wife's reaction baffled him; she had been mean and cold to him before and now she seemed to be having a change of heart.

 

I said I worried that he would want to go back home, which is totally fine, but I would prefer he figure that out before we go further. He told me not to worry so much and that he loves me and wants to be with me. I figured things were probably feeling hard for him so I just shut up. I still had a lot of worries but didn't want to sit there letting us soak in them. So then we went to my house and watched another football game and went back to his friend's house to sleep because he had left his work clothes there. At one point he mentioned an event coming up in three weeks and said he would bring me, and said that by then things would be more progressed and we would be an out and in the open couple.

 

So last night was peaceful but this morning was a bit weird. He got up and showered and we hadn't had sex last night or this morning which is weird-- we've had more sex when we were apart then yesterday/this morning when we were together. Which is fine with me but it showed me that he had things on his mind. He said I move a lot at night and he kept waking up. But that overall he slept well. While he was getting ready--my clothes were at my house--I laid down on the bed because I was still sleepy. He came and laid down next to me and said not to worry, things will be fine, and then he started talking about how it baffled him that his wife sounded so different on the phone yesterday. He said the reality of him leaving is sinking in. I said maybe she had a change of heart. He said that in the past she's said he F-ed up and she can't forgive him or take him back because he would never do that if the roles were reversed. He said at one point she kept saying she couldn't be with him so he said fine he'll move out. Now she was being nice and concerned about him.

 

I just feel like so much depends on his wife's attitude and I feel that if she were to welcome him home and just forget about the A, he would want to go back. He doesn't want to do what it takes to earn her forgiveness-previously, stop talking to me or seeing me, and now, I guess basically asking for forgiveness and really acting sorry-but if she were to give in and say, okay everything is fine, just come home, I think he would. And it makes me feel like what am I doing here? This is between them. I told him I feel that he will want to go home and he said "it's way to early to be deciding that." I said, "Eventually, I mean," and he said he doesn't know. I said, I don't understand because last night he was saying that in three weeks we'd be a public couple but now he is saying it will take awhile to decide. (I can only assume he means that if his wife files for divorce, it will go fast... if not, he still has some decisions to make). He asked me if I thought he would move out from his home and start talking about divorce and tell his wife and his counselor and his friends that he was moving out, etc., if he didn't really want to be with me. I acknowledged that he had a lot to lose-- his divorce will be very expensive and he won't have his nice house and he won't live with his kids, etc. So he said all of this is proof that he loves me and will do what it takes to be with me, and he said he is taking a risk too because after all of this I could decide I don't want to be with him, six months down the road or whenever.

 

So. Here we are in limbo. It isn't fun but I am trying to be there for him and trying to stay positive.

 

Wow I know how hard it must be. I know what he's talking about in regards to the W's sudden change of attitude. If been the bs asking my mm to just come home to me' and our kids. They are just as capable of playing the game and the seductress to grt their man back as an ow is to win her man. Its easy to be mad and nasty when they are in the house because you always think that u have too much together for the oW to be worth giving it all up...but when he does it is a slap in the face of reality and suddenly there is a need to win. She will pull this and he will eat it up. He will say he is going to visit his kids and she will be there in 1 of 2 conditions, either completely fallen apart to make him feel guilty like she just can't hold herself together without him, or completely together, new hair cut, clothes, she'll probably have done some decorating or remodeling to their house...all screaming she has it together...she's moving on without me' and I didn't mean anything to her. Either will drive him crazy, and with his history with her it will be the hardest thing in the world for him to not run back. You have to be on your A game to keep him during this transition. It's probably the most challenging time u will have in your R...for once he really has to make a choice. I know as much as u want to be insecure and let him show u his love, now is not the time...now is the time to be confident, secure, prove to him ur commitment and show him he can be happy. Give him everything he never had with her. It's a dual now. His love for both women are about to be tested to the extreme. I so wish u all the best....but what it will boil down to is him choosing what he thinks is right for everyone...and be sure of one thing it's easier to let down one person than it is to let down an entire family (kids and wife) who are fighting to get him home too.

[Star_Bright]

Wow I know how hard it must be. I know what he's talking about in regards to the W's sudden change of attitude. If been the bs asking my mm to just come home to me' and our kids. They are just as capable of playing the game and the seductress to grt their man back as an ow is to win her man. Its easy to be mad and nasty when they are in the house because you always think that u have too much together for the oW to be worth giving it all up...but when he does it is a slap in the face of reality and suddenly there is a need to win. She will pull this and he will eat it up. He will say he is going to visit his kids and she will be there in 1 of 2 conditions, either completely fallen apart to make him feel guilty like she just can't hold herself together without him, or completely together, new hair cut, clothes, she'll probably have done some decorating or remodeling to their house...all screaming she has it together...she's moving on without me' and I didn't mean anything to her. Either will drive him crazy, and with his history with her it will be the hardest thing in the world for him to not run back. You have to be on your A game to keep him during this transition. It's probably the most challenging time u will have in your R...for once he really has to make a choice. I know as much as u want to be insecure and let him show u his love, now is not the time...now is the time to be confident, secure, prove to him ur commitment and show him he can be happy. Give him everything he never had with her. It's a dual now. His love for both women are about to be tested to the extreme. I so wish u all the best....but what it will boil down to is him choosing what he thinks is right for everyone...and be sure of one thing it's easier to let down one person than it is to let down an entire family (kids and wife) who are fighting to get him home too.

 

Yeah, you sum it all up correctly. that is what is going on, and I don't really want to be in a fight for him, especially one that I know I will probably lose. I have thought (and told him) from the beginning that it is crazy for me to think he would leave his long-standing marriage and family and creature comforts and image etc. for ME... just one person. He says I don't value myself enough but I am just being realistic; it is one new relationship against all of that, and the odds are stacked.

 

From what I can tell she has been doing the 180 on him this whole time -- going about her own life and not caring about him, in fact it makes him feel bad when she doesn't acknowledge him and she's not kind to him, and I'm kind of like well honey what do you expect, you are with ME every night, yet you expect her to coddle you? Yes, I think he did/does expect that because he really demands a lot; full acceptance and love and attention even when he isn't giving his all. That is what makes me frustrated with him. If he is really done with her then why does he care what she says and does, why not just get divorced and move on? Shows me he isn't totally done with her.

 

Which I do understand. I understand why he would stay married and I don't want him to feel like I'm here dragging him away or putting all these demands on him... I want him to decide what he really wants and go with it. As you say that would be hard for him to do if I step away and she's pulling him back... I lose. But if I stay and fight and give it my all and he goes back home anyway, I still lose, and I've invested all this time and energy and love. I feel like it's a catch 22. I don't think there's any way I can win (unless she gets totally fed up and just files for divorce and doesn't look back), so why am I playing? Sometimes I just want to stop this game but I also realize that he has come this far for me and it's not fair to back off when things get rough. I feel an obligation to see this through one way or the other.

[Star_Bright]

I can see how MM questions my commitment. I told him not to contact me unless he moved out, and then right before he moved out, I told him NOT to move out. I'm all over the place!! I am afraid of getting hurt.

[BB07]

Star, I admit that I haven't read all the replies but I want to share my concerns with some of what I have read.

 

From what you have described to us, I'm afraid this MM of yours is highly likely to have emotionally and verbally abusive tendencies. I say this from my own bitter experiences. I have had two relationships of that sort in my life. One when I was very young and then one a few years ago. You would think after the 1st time I would have been smarter and I would have been the 1st one to say, never again but I was vulnerable and needy at the time and even though I knew the signs I didn't heed them.

Star......please do some research on this and do some soul searching because if he is this kind of man, it is not a road you want to go down. The affair combination and the possibility of being abused is a recipe for a disaster that will take you years to recover from. Please.......please take heed because I believe the signs are there.

[Brokenlady]

Star, your first night with him sounds a lot like mine with DM when he moved out. Xw controlled the pace of everything, and in some ways, she still does. It's not fun. Your guys Ws reaction isn't so strange when you know she wants him to come home. She will likely go back and firth between anger and trying to win him over with kindness.

 

It says a lot that he took pretty much nothing with him. That's not moving out. That's a hotel stay. DM left most of his stuff at his xw's house just to keep the door open with her for almost a year. It symbolized his unwillingness to be definitive in any decision. You are right to be wary. Very wary indeed. And don't let him make you feel bad about that- his track record speaks for itself and right now he's figuring he will never have to make it up to you.

 

My DM was the same way. In his head, it was easier to be with me and theoretically have a great relationship- he could avoid doing work to fix his M. And what a rude awakening it was when he realized ge had much to make up to me too! For a ling time, he was unwilling to do that work and it was heartbreaking. Please be careful.

[Star_Bright]

Star, I admit that I haven't read all the replies but I want to share my concerns with some of what I have read.

 

From what you have described to us, I'm afraid this MM of yours is highly likely to have emotionally and verbally abusive tendencies. I say this from my own bitter experiences. I have had two relationships of that sort in my life. One when I was very young and then one a few years ago. You would think after the 1st time I would have been smarter and I would have been the 1st one to say, never again but I was vulnerable and needy at the time and even though I knew the signs I didn't heed them.

Star......please do some research on this and do some soul searching because if he is this kind of man, it is not a road you want to go down. The affair combination and the possibility of being abused is a recipe for a disaster that will take you years to recover from. Please.......please take heed because I believe the signs are there.

 

Thanks BB. I am watching out. So far he hasn't been like that again AT ALL even though his past two flip-outs made me so skiddish I keep heading for the door. He said he will talk to his IC about his jealousy issues and that he knows now that I'm not out to hurt him. I think his fears just got in the way of reality and turned him into an ugly person! I know if he does that again I am GONE.

[Star_Bright]

Star, your first night with him sounds a lot like mine with DM when he moved out. Xw controlled the pace of everything, and in some ways, she still does. It's not fun. Your guys Ws reaction isn't so strange when you know she wants him to come home. She will likely go back and firth between anger and trying to win him over with kindness.

 

It says a lot that he took pretty much nothing with him. That's not moving out. That's a hotel stay. DM left most of his stuff at his xw's house just to keep the door open with her for almost a year. It symbolized his unwillingness to be definitive in any decision. You are right to be wary. Very wary indeed. And don't let him make you feel bad about that- his track record speaks for itself and right now he's figuring he will never have to make it up to you.

 

My DM was the same way. In his head, it was easier to be with me and theoretically have a great relationship- he could avoid doing work to fix his M. And what a rude awakening it was when he realized ge had much to make up to me too! For a ling time, he was unwilling to do that work and it was heartbreaking. Please be careful.

 

BrokenLady,

 

You've been through a lot and I don't envy you; I will pay particular attention to what you say because yes it seems like you have lived this scenario.

 

MM and I just had a very open talk; he was honest with me, which I appreciate. He had just had IC and he said his therapist is encouraging him to go back home and stay there until his son leaves the house. He told me he does think about staying married for his kids' security and also because it's the most secure and easiest/less costly/less risky option. But that if he does he knows he will be robotic and will be missing out on what he has with me. He said he doesn't want to miss this chance with me. He knows he is taking a risk that in awhile down the road I will be gone and he will have given up everything for nothing. But he is willing to take that risk because 1) he is so unhappy at home and 2) he loves me. He said there's definitely the "StarBright factor," where even if his wife were to say, please come back home and I'll forgive you for everything, that option might sound tempting except that I am here and he wants to be with me.

 

I feel he is being honest. I told him how this morning I could tell he was feeling strange, and he said yes, he woke up missing his kids and knowing what they were doing as part of their routine and he wasn't there. I said I'm sure part of him worries how his wife is doing and missing her and he said, yes, that's true, it's mainly his kids but also his wife, and house.

 

I am just glad he is being honest with me. I feel that his feelings are normal. Before his big jealousy blow-ups I had told myself that my conditions are, he follows through with the actions he promises, he doesn't lie to me, and if he goes back home, we are done. Then I added the big one to the list which is that he can't have one of those angry fits anymore where he tries to make me feel like crap. The last one is something he has done and which I will walk if he does again. The other ones are conditions I set for myself in advance, knowing what I need in order to stay in this relationship, and to his credit he has not broken any condition. He told me a date he would move out and he did-- yes, it's a lot more temporary than I'd like and I can tell he is unsure because of how he is leaving stuff at home etc.--but he did move out which is a step in my direction and which follows through on what he told me. He hasn't lied to me, and he hasn't gone back home. I feel I need to see this out because part of me thinks it has been and can continue to be great, and part of me thinks it has been and can continue to be a nightmare! I guess the nature of As are just so tumultuous; well, I got with him fully knowing he is married and I now it's hard but I do want to see it out if he continues to meet me half way.

 

I am going to get the book Angel suggested and see if I recognize him in it. So far I feel that most of this must just be "normal", hard stuff that people go through when they have an affair and start the separation/divorce process. I don't always like what's going on but I can understand it. Yes his wife is setting the tone right now but I also think that if he wants to be with me and I want to be with him then it isn't going to matter what she does. That only matters if he wants to stay with her, in which case, I am going to lose anyway. So RIGHT NOW all of that feels bearable to me and worth it to see it out. It's the jealousy fits that have me worried, and maybe as some posters say, that's his insecurities stepping in about the unstable situation and about the fact that I was starting to look for other options once I went NC, and he picked up on that and got worried that I didn't want to be with exclusively him. If the anger/jealousy fits have subsided for good then I will keep evaluating the other issues as we go. That and my other three conditions are the only deal breakers for me at this point. I do understand it's hard for him to leave such a long marriage and his home and kids. I totally get that and would not blame him for not being able to do it. I think he is trying to do it because he really has been unhappy and he really does love me.

[Angel1111]

- This lashing out at me and being cruel has happened a few times in our relationship... and twice recently regarding his jealousy towards other men.

 

- it really took me down, made me feel so crappy about myself, made me so emotionally upset

 

- It's like he was purposefully trying to hurt me...and it cuts me to the core.

 

- Like Jekyll and Hyde

 

- And this morning when I woke up I thought, it's like after a guy hits a woman and she is upset and he doesn't care

 

- He can be a really aggressive hot tempered bully, and I had seen him be like that to other people

 

- I had never seen him use it on me until recently.

 

- I guess we did have some big blow-ups when his wife first found out and I went away and he didn't want me to come back to work.

 

- I did feel like this then but the whole thing was so explosive I didn't realize what was going on.

 

- Now when things are supposedly good and he is supposedly leaving and he acts like this over jealousy, I see that it could very well be emotional/verbal abuse.

 

 

These are direct statements from you, Star, in just one post. I'm not imagining things or pulling things out of my hat just to put this guy down. It horrifies me that people are so willing to excuse this kind of thing. But I do think you need to give it time so that you can see for yourself who he really is, and then you'll be certain, one way or another.

 

Please read the book that I mentioned. If he's not verbally abusive, then great; at least you'll know the signs. I'll just say that this one is really simple in my eyes -- if a person is an "aggressive bully" to others, he or she will be an aggressive bully to you eventually.

 

And, now, for the next 6 mos to a year, he can use the 'I'm stressed about my divorce' excuse when he starts lashing out at you again. Or he can hang it over your head that he'll either date other women or go back to his wife if you won't tolerate his anger. Please be careful about getting into the mode of walking on eggshells around him because of these spoken or unspoken threats.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Angel1111

[Star_Bright]

- This lashing out at me and being cruel has happened a few times in our relationship... and twice recently regarding his jealousy towards other men.

 

- it really took me down, made me feel so crappy about myself, made me so emotionally upset

 

- It's like he was purposefully trying to hurt me...and it cuts me to the core.

 

- Like Jekyll and Hyde

 

- And this morning when I woke up I thought, it's like after a guy hits a woman and she is upset and he doesn't care

 

- He can be a really aggressive hot tempered bully, and I had seen him be like that to other people

 

- I had never seen him use it on me until recently.

 

- I guess we did have some big blow-ups when his wife first found out and I went away and he didn't want me to come back to work.

 

- I did feel like this then but the whole thing was so explosive I didn't realize what was going on.

 

- Now when things are supposedly good and he is supposedly leaving and he acts like this over jealousy, I see that it could very well be emotional/verbal abuse.

 

 

These are direct statements from you, Star, in just one post. I'm not imagining things or pulling things out of my hat just to put this guy down. It horrifies me that people are so willing to excuse this kind of thing. But I do think you need to give it time so that you can see for yourself who he really is, and then you'll be certain.

 

Please read the book that I mentioned. If he's not verbally abusive, then great; at least you'll know the signs. I'll just say that this one is really simple in my eyes -- if a person is an "aggressive bully" to others, he or she will be an aggressive bully to you eventually.

 

And, now, for the next 6 mos to a year, he can use the 'I'm stressed about my divorce' excuse when he starts lashing out at you again. Or he can hang it over your head that he'll either date other women or go back to his wife if you won't tolerate his anger. Please be careful about getting into the mode of walking on eggshells around him because of these spoken or unspoken threats.

 

Angel,

 

I do appreciate your concern for me. I am definitely going to read the Why Does He Do That? book.

 

I think one thing that really stuck out for me in your post is how you said if he is an aggressive bully to others, he will be that way to me eventually too. People who don't know we are together (he was my boss, so, in that context) have told me he is an A-hole. It's a close call because we work in a field where being an aggressive bully is often valued, and it's partly how he became so successful. He told me he is not the way he is at work at home. I have seen him be an A-hole to staff at work. But never me, or anyone he likes/respects, before. So I am thinking about this more because I really don't want to be with an aggressive bully. I am not one to let my feelings be trampled on and I can say for sure that if he acts like that again, I am gone. I don't care if he has the excuse of being stressed over his divorce. He knows I need him to deal kindly with me no matter what, and he'd better do that or it's over.

 

Thanks again for all your advice Angel.

[fooled once]

He said he is moving out today either way, with or without me. He said he wants me to be there with him but he knows he needs to do this anyway. I feel like I have gone too far and already helped caused too much destruction. Although I have tried to step out of the way several times and each time he comes and tells me his marriage is over and he wants to be with me.

 

I am confused as to how house sitting is moving out?

 

Thank you for the advice Jennie. I guess I AM being wishy-washy. When everything was a bed of roses with MM, it bothered me that we were in an affair but I thought, we love each other ad he wants to get divorced and be with me. It isn't ideal but it happens. Well now that he has shown me anther side of himself, or maybe the real side of himself, it causes me to question everything and think, well, what did I think I was getting by being involved with a MM who can cheat on his wife and leave his family? Everything gets so murky and I start to see how my own actions played a part in this.

 

He thinks I am only saying don't do it because I am afraid of getting hurt. Of his going back home or moving on to someone new. He is right about that but I also feel real guilt and sadness when I think of him talking to his kids about moving out, which he is supposedly doing right now. It makes me wish I never would have embarked down this path. But I did and here I am.

 

You're right that I need to choose love or morals. And I really need to figure him out. He has always been very loving to me except with these fits of jealousy (well and a couple of times awhile back when his wife found out and I wanted to keep working there but he didn't want me ti). I guess when he feels threatened, he gets angry, which I can understand. But if he does that again I am leaving for sure. I guess in the meantime I will just watch how he acts. I did/do love him more than anyone else ever, but it is hard to measure that against my rationality, when he has one of those fits. To me that is the big problem here and then my morals/conscience.

 

Fits of jealousy

Angry and threatening

 

And when he does it AGAIN, you are leaving for sure????

 

So why don't you tell him to call you after he is divorced? Why can't you do that? Why can't you back out, since you are having moral issues and let him end his marriage (or go back) without having you to coddle him along the way?

 

Yes, he did leave. We spent a the night together which was nice. I think I have so many fears and doubts, some maybe rational, some not. It makes it hard to show him I'm a secure choice when really I'm full of my own insecurities about us. But he thanked me for being there for him. He has IC this morning so that should help. Thanks for your message; it does help to hear some encouragement while keeping in mind the concerns. I'm kind of all over the place right now and I thin he is too... Even though he says I worry enough for the both of us!

 

So the night his wife kicks him out, he spends with you? What happened to stepping back? OR was that just words?

 

It's like, I don't want to be naive, but I also don't want to be overly cynical. I think I start to get paranoid reading all the stories on LS and even some of the replies in my thread. Like, I was going back and re-reading, and someone said he's foolish to plan to move in with me right away, AFTER I had said he plans to get his own three-bedroom place for him and his kids (NOT move in with me). And then people keep asking me his kids' age and how long he's been married... I understand that not everyone has time to read my whole story but I also think that sometimes people give cookie cutter advice without really listening to everything. This is NOT a slight on anyone who posts to me; I appreciate everyone's comments, but I just get so inundated thinking the worst that I have to step back and look at the situation for what ***I*** really think it is.

 

Yeah, it was me who asked those questions - sorry, been busy with my life and my son who was in surgery so I didn't go back and research your entire history to find out your age (30) against his 54 years old and his kids ages. No, my advice is not cookie cutter (which I don't even understand, but it is the normal defensive mode OW go into when they get advice they don't like). Again, my own life has had its challenges lately and I don't have time to sit on here 24/7 to read every single word. Which is why it is helpful in new threads to put more back ground so that those that aren't here 24/7 can be refreshed without having to go back and search through someone's posts.

 

I guess I could start saying all affairs are cookie cutter and the same old, same old. Guess no one needs the background info in order to access and give advice.

Yes, MM could be lying his butt off to me, but I have never once caught him in a lie. He has been honest even when it's harmful to his own interest in seeing me. And I have been on my toes to verify the truth as much ads I can. I KNOW there are things he keeps from me-- like, I'm sure he often thinks of staying married and if he told me every time he thinks this, I would get tired of it and say then stay married! So instead I wonder how often he thinks of it and what's really going on in his head... so I worry anyway. This situation is full of a lot of angst for me and I'm trying to determine whether its' worth it. I figure it can't hurt to see what happens now that he's moved out. At least I'll know I gave it a shot.

 

Another OW who believes all of it.

 

So enjoy. Enjoy sneaking around for 3 more weeks (won't ask why the 3 week deadline of sneaking around). Enjoy watching his kids ask dad when he is coming home or ask dad who that girl is he was with.

 

He isn't MOVED OUT. He didn't move his stuff. He packed A BAG. How is that moved out? Moved out is taking your stuff, signing a lease and MOVING. It isn't house sitting.

 

Even HE can't tell you he won't be going back. Is that really, really something you want? You are 30!!!! He is 54. He is a serial cheater who has issues - big issues. But you want to believe that he is going to be different with you. He isn't going to cheat. He isn't going to continue to be abusive.

 

So much of your story is similar to my affair. I was 30; he was 47. He was married to his 2nd wife. They didn't have any kids together, but had blended families (and the kids were all adults). But the guy I had an affair with actually DID move out and into an apartment - not house sitting for a friend. He actually MOVED his things. And after a year of living on his own, he moved back home with his wife. Yet the affair continued for another year because I was stupid and believed his stories of how bad it was at home and how he just needed some more time. What an idiot I was.

 

But we all have to learn our own ways. I apologize for asking you obviously too many questions and not knowing your entire story.

 

It says a lot that he took pretty much nothing with him. That's not moving out. That's a hotel stay. DM left most of his stuff at his xw's house just to keep the door open with her for almost a year. It symbolized his unwillingness to be definitive in any decision. You are right to be wary. Very wary indeed. And don't let him make you feel bad about that- his track record speaks for itself and right now he's figuring he will never have to make it up to you.

 

My DM was the same way. In his head, it was easier to be with me and theoretically have a great relationship- he could avoid doing work to fix his M. And what a rude awakening it was when he realized ge had much to make up to me too! For a ling time, he was unwilling to do that work and it was heartbreaking. Please be careful.

 

 

Ditto the bolded and BL - I am flabbergasted. You took him back????

 

Star, it seems as if you are going to have to 'learn' the hard way. My advice - tell him to call you after he is divorced. I know you won't do that - so my other advice is to be ready - be ready for when he returns home, because he feels as if he owes it to his wife. The fact that he isn't even emotionally okay about it speaks VOLUMES. If he was so ready to be done, he would be happy and good with it all. He doesn't like that she isn't chasing him and calling his bluff. And why is that? Because while he enjoys having a girl 24 years younger than him all ga-ga over him, he knows it won't last. And that is what makes him such an ass because he is leading you on. If I have time tomorrow, I will go back and research and see how long you have actually been having an affair with him (or maybe someone can PM that info to me because I don't want to ask you because you will again make an assumption that (a) I can't read or (b) I am making cookie cutter responses. Heck, if that is what I was doing, I would have a document I have saved so I could save myself all the typing and the pain from typing that I go through each day (I have major medical issues in my arms).

 

Good luck to you - just be ready for it.

[Brokenlady]

Star,

I know well the feeling of wanting to see where it goes and like you I rationalized for him and called that being "understanding of his loss". I also went through a divorce, which was definitive and not the agonizing slow process DM insisted his must be. I knew what I wanted and did what I needed to do, yet I had a million reasons why DM just couldn't do the same thing. Please bear in mind that there is a difference between being understanding and being a doormat. And also bear in mind that you KNOW thus isn't going to go anywhere good. He's showing you the signs I got, and you're still in the mode of wait and see because you're so hoping that the ending will be different than what all the signs point to. I've been there, and I wish there was something I could say to save you from the process I see you're determined to undergo, but I know i can't.

 

What I can say now that I'm on the other side is that although things are better now, the damage was done and it can never be undone. If I could go back in time, I'd not do this again. No amount of future joy that you are envisioning will be worth what he is going to put you through. His last ow can attest to that (his W).

 

But since you're embarking anyway, a book I found helpful was surviving your boyfriends divorce. Check it out.

[Star_Bright]

Hi Fooled Once. First let me address this:

 

 

Yeah, it was me who asked those questions - sorry, been busy with my life and my son who was in surgery so I didn't go back and research your entire history to find out your age (30) against his 54 years old and his kids ages. No, my advice is not cookie cutter (which I don't even understand, but it is the normal defensive mode OW go into when they get advice they don't like). Again, my own life has had its challenges lately and I don't have time to sit on here 24/7 to read every single word. Which is why it is helpful in new threads to put more back ground so that those that aren't here 24/7 can be refreshed without having to go back and search through someone's posts.

 

I guess I could start saying all affairs are cookie cutter and the same old, same old. Guess no one needs the background info in order to access and give advice.

 

I'm sorry that what I said upset you; I meant no offense. I don't mind if you ask me questions; I just thought that some of it sounded like cookie cutter advice in that you didn't know the whole story and were giving advice as if the details didn't matter. Maybe the details don't matter to you and that is fine. I appreciate your advice and the time you spend giving it to me. I admit I don't have all the answers and I'm just figuring my way through this. And probably not doing very well at it.

 

I am confused as to how house sitting is moving out?

 

He's not house-sitting. His friend has been out of the country for awhile now (and will be out of the country for another few months-- he's working overseas) and has neighbors to check in on his house; has no animals or plants so doesn't really need a house-sitter; his neighbors water his yard every other day (we live in the desert) and that's it. So he doesn't need MM to housesit; MM needs the place to stay.

 

I know what you mean though and I joked with MM that he's on vacation. He told me he told his therapist I called his BS with that line. So yes I do think it is a very temporary situation but it also works out well because there is no rent involved and it's big enough for MM to bring his kids to, etc. So yes I am, perhaps stupidly, trying to be understanding and compromising; in my opinion it is a huge deal that he has moved even temporarily out of his house and away from his kids. To me that is big and I understand if to you it isn't, but to me it is.

 

 

Fits of jealousy

Angry and threatening

 

And when he does it AGAIN, you are leaving for sure????

 

Yes. IF he does it again.

 

So why don't you tell him to call you after he is divorced? Why can't you do that? Why can't you back out, since you are having moral issues and let him end his marriage (or go back) without having you to coddle him along the way?

 

I have no other answer except that I love him.

 

 

So the night his wife kicks him out, he spends with you? What happened to stepping back? OR was that just words?

 

I don't believe his wife kicked him out; he told me he was leaving in eight days, because he had told her he was going to move out and then she had asked him to stay through the end of her out-of-town friend's weekend visit (which ended Sunday). And he did. So to me that is not her kicking him out at all.

 

I spent the night with him at his friend's house. I guess stepping back WAS just words, because I told him I couldn't do it, to stay home, and he said he was moving out with or without me, and he did. So yeah I didn't have the strength to stay away from him once he had done what he had said and moved out. So yeah I was confused. I don't know what else to say but I am not sorry that I was there for him after he moved out, or started housesitting or whatever it is you want to call it. I felt I should continue giving him a fair shake because I knew it was hard for him to do. That's just how I felt and yes my feelings contradict and my words contradict but that's just how it is for me right now.

 

Another OW who believes all of it.

I guess I am, for now. I believe that he has moved out and that it was his decision and that it was a hard decision to make. I believe that he loves me. That is what I believe and the rest of it is muddled at the moment.

 

 

So enjoy. Enjoy sneaking around for 3 more weeks (won't ask why the 3 week deadline of sneaking around). Enjoy watching his kids ask dad when he is coming home or ask dad who that girl is he was with.

 

I am not sure where you got three weeks or a three week deadline? Right now he has moved out and there is no deadline for anything else at the moment. So that one confuses me-- there's no three week anything.

 

As far as his kids, they haven't met me (well they met me when I worked for him as part of office events etc. but they have not met me as the "girl he is with" and they won't right now.

 

 

He isn't MOVED OUT. He didn't move his stuff. He packed A BAG. How is that moved out? Moved out is taking your stuff, signing a lease and MOVING. It isn't house sitting.

 

Yesterday he went and got a lot more of his stuff and clothes. He said that the first step was talking to his kids and that was so hard that he hadn't wanted to worry about packing everything and what he'd need to take. It wasn't ideal but again I understand. Now he has all his living stuff there and a bunch of clothes. So more than a bag.

 

Even HE can't tell you he won't be going back. Is that really, really something you want? You are 30!!!! He is 54. He is a serial cheater who has issues - big issues. But you want to believe that he is going to be different with you. He isn't going to cheat. He isn't going to continue to be abusive.

 

I admit the situation is not ideal. I wish it were different. If he abuses me I will leave, if he goes back home, which is his choice to make and I will not pressure him, I will leave. If he cheats, I will leave. I feel I have the right to set my own boundaries and standards in this relationship like any other. I do not think he will do those things, except perhaps go back home, which, again, I understand.

 

So much of your story is similar to my affair. I was 30; he was 47. He was married to his 2nd wife. They didn't have any kids together, but had blended families (and the kids were all adults). But the guy I had an affair with actually DID move out and into an apartment - not house sitting for a friend. He actually MOVED his things. And after a year of living on his own, he moved back home with his wife. Yet the affair continued for another year because I was stupid and believed his stories of how bad it was at home and how he just needed some more time. What an idiot I was.

 

But we all have to learn our own ways. I apologize for asking you obviously too many questions and not knowing your entire story.

 

I'm sorry that this happened to you. It sounds like a very hard situation to have to go through. I do appreciate you passing your hard-earned advice onto me. I'm not trying to ignore what you say; I do hear it, I guess as you say I have to learn on my own. I do know that if he goes back home, we are done. Now is the time for him to make his choice.

 

Again, it's fine that you ask me questions, I didn't mean not to. I do appreciate you getting to know the details of my story and of course there are questions to be asked, and that's really fine.

 

Ditto the bolded and BL - I am flabbergasted. You took him back????

 

Star, it seems as if you are going to have to 'learn' the hard way. My advice - tell him to call you after he is divorced. I know you won't do that - so my other advice is to be ready - be ready for when he returns home, because he feels as if he owes it to his wife. The fact that he isn't even emotionally okay about it speaks VOLUMES. If he was so ready to be done, he would be happy and good with it all. He doesn't like that she isn't chasing him and calling his bluff. And why is that? Because while he enjoys having a girl 24 years younger than him all ga-ga over him, he knows it won't last. And that is what makes him such an ass because he is leading you on. If I have time tomorrow, I will go back and research and see how long you have actually been having an affair with him (or maybe someone can PM that info to me because I don't want to ask you because you will again make an assumption that (a) I can't read or (b) I am making cookie cutter responses. Heck, if that is what I was doing, I would have a document I have saved so I could save myself all the typing and the pain from typing that I go through each day (I have major medical issues in my arms).

 

Good luck to you - just be ready for it.

 

We have been in a PA for four months. Actually one of those months I was out of state visiting my family after his wife found out about us. But the PA started four months ago. It was an EA for quite awhile before that, about a year. I didn't always know it was an EA, it snuck up on us as I guess these things do, and then at some point I did realize we were in some kind of an affair even though it wasn't physical-- spending as much time together as we could, sharing private information about our lives with each other, little jokes and "accidental" touches etc. So I can't say exactly when it started but as soon as we met there was chemistry and connection. Maybe a messed up kind of connection but there it was.

 

FWIW I do think he was very unhappy at home and that some part of him was looking to leave before he even met me. At first I was just another escape from his wife. Then I became very close and important to him, and vice versa. I'm not saying it's right but that's what happened and it's a hard bond to break. I'm sure you understand, having gone through something similar. I have tried to break it off many times before and it is just very powerful. I guess I am weak. Really I am just trying to figure it all out.

 

I appreciate your advice and I'm sorry to hear about your medical problems with your arms. Thank you for taking the time to write to me; half the time I am absolutely miserable with this whole situation but then when I go to get out of it, I let myself get sucked back in because I love him and I guess because it's become what I know. Not trying to make excuses but that's where I am right now. I think your advice to get ready for him to go back home is probably right. Honestly I think I will be glad because I just want this to be over with. I want it be resolved one way or the other. But when you say the fact that he's not emotionally okay with it speaks volumes-- I find it hard to believe that someone leaving a 17-year marriage with kids would always be emotionally okay with it. Sometimes he is resolved about it and other times he feels guilt and sadness. He has told me he doesn't feel remorse, which is what he would need to make it work, and that he knows it's over and can never be revived. I do think if he were strong enough he would leave on his own, without me, but it's a lot easier when someone else is there to help you through. I think that is just human nature. I don't feel he's leaving just because of me, although he does want to be with me, and I think if he goes back it will just be because it is so hard and sad for him to give up all he knows; in which case, I will understand and move on. I know I may not be making sense but my thoughts and emotions are all over the place. I'm just trying to say that I do understand his emotions and I know this is a hard time for him, which doesn't mean he doesn't love me and doesn't WANT to do what it takes to be with me-- it's just that that's a lot easier said than done. Thanks again.

[Star_Bright]

If he's telling you he misses his W, that is where his heart ultimately lies, no matter if he moves out for a short while.

 

If she let's him back, he will go.

 

I tell you this because when a man wants to leave, he leaves and gets divorced. He doesn't sleep with his W, go on vacations with her, or say that he misses her. When a man loves his OW and wants to be with her, he is. He stops making excuses and starts making it a reality.

 

You are happy that he is being honest with you. But I don't think he is. I think he doesn't just miss his W, but loves her and is in over his head here. It's only been 4 months of a PA. Men don't leave that soon unless they were leaving anyway and it sounds like he has been pretty happy with his life as he knows it. The counselor info is a little tidbit so that you'll step aside and say "Ok, a professional thinks that's best." Have you ever been to a session with him? I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even have an IC.

 

I tell you this because you sound very sweet, caring and loving. And you deserve someone who will reciprocate your love.

 

And his feelings are normal of men conflicted in their love lives. Not normal of men who have made a hard decision to leave a M. I know that man and he is not conflicted at all. The conflicted ones are the ones that waffle, break your heart into a trillion pieces, ruin your reputation and then go back to their W's unscathed. The ones who leave say they miss you and love you and then SHOW you and the world that's the truth.

 

EEG

 

He hasn't told me he misses his wife. In fact he's said he misses being around his kids and he misses his home but he is glad not to be with her. He has started to refer to it as his "kid's house."

 

I do think he was unhappy with his marriage and looking for a way out for a very long time. Not that all was happy wit his married life, at all. He spent every free minute with me for a long time; he would not go home until after she was asleep, sometimes he would spend the night with me. And even before we were in a full-blown, very intense PA, he would look for every reason to stay out talking to me instead of going home to her. And even before we were in an EA and I just worked with him, I would notice he would find every reason NOT to go home. So did all of our co-workers. So I do think he was ready to end his marriage but I'm not sure if he'll have the guts to go through with it.

 

Not sure why you mentioned sleeping with his wife or going on vacations with her. He is obviously not doing that as they are separated. I'm not trying to be snarky I'm just not sure why you said that.

 

The PA was four months but the EA was much longer, again because I think he was looking for someone else because he was not happy with her.

 

I'm not saying we are going to work out. I have no idea. I'm just saying it has always seemed to me that he wanted to leave her. If he doesn't, well, I'm not going to push him to do it. Perhaps he THOUGHT he wanted to leave her and now he is having second thoughts. Perhaps I am paranoid and think that he misses her when he doesn't. It was me who said he misses her, and I just *assume* that... I have broken off long relationships and I have missed that person even though I know they're not right for me. It's hard to just leave a relationship, let alone a very long marriage, and I'm sure it does involve missing the other person. So if he does miss her I am okay with that and don't think it means we're doomed. But he hasn't told me he misses her.

[Star_Bright]

Right here. This is where he admitted it.

 

And I said about going on vacations and sleeping with the W because it goes along as one of the lies that MM tell. Some just embellish more. Many MM are trying to reconcile with their W's when they are separated with the OW. And those are the conflicted ones. Or maybe not really conflicted. Maybe just know they're in deep s*** at home and trying to have what they really desire: the W at home and the OW when they feel like it.

 

And I know you're not being snarky, you're just on the defensive. And I don't want to make you feel like that, I'm just telling you guard your heart. He's warning you about what he's going to do. I'm just advising you to heed that warning.

 

EEG

 

Hmmm that's true, thanks for going back and finding that because I'd forgotten.

 

I guess for me I don't feel like he misses his wife nearly as much as his kids and I do understand that he misses his wife, I would think that would be natural/normal.

 

BUT I do think he's still wishy-washy and, as you said, wanting to keep both of us.

 

I was thinking, I told him not to contact me until he moved out. Ok so he did the bare minimum that I required. He moved into a very temporary place. He still sees his wife (she works for him although he says she's "phasing her out" and she's training another assistant for her duties. I'm friends with that other assistant so I know this is true but it is still weird to me that they are "separated" and see each other at work). He still talks to his wife. Yes it's only been two days but to me it FEELS like he is still undecided or else he would just file for divorce! He says it's not automatic like that and I do understand. But in the meantime I am still left hanging because at any moment he could go back to his wife. So I feel like taking the preemptive strike and just leaving.

 

I am trying to open my eyes and rely on my intuition and common sense and the advice of all of you wise folks here on the LS forum, instead of just my blind love for him. It FEELS like he is still buying time. He finagled a way to get her to be okay with him moving out, by saying he "needs space to think," the environment is "toxic for the kids" and his counselor agrees it is best to "take a time-out." Or else she could have given him a deadline, because she knows about me, and said "if you don't stop talking to/ hanging out with SB by this date, you are out." Somehow, he is out. So he is seeing how long he can go with me being okay that he is out yet not pending divorce, and how long she can go with him being out.

 

Now supposedly she is talking to a divorce lawyer today, so perhaps he is biding his time and seeing whether she is cutting him off for good, or whether I am cutting him off for good, which of course I am close to doing. What kind of strategy is that? What is he getting out of this??? Why doesn't he just make up his mind one way or the other?

 

I should have told him not to contact me until he has filed for divorce. But then I have the feeling he might have even filed but then still hoped there was a chance to work it out with the wife. Because at one point I got frustrated and said, why are you waiting for her to file, if you want out, why can't you just file, and he said, ok then, I'll file. Argh he is so frustrating.

 

I don't know why he didn't/can't just tell her, I'm sorry but it's over, I'm leaving to be with SB. If he really wanted to be with me for sure, he would just do that. I guess it's as simple as that, so why am I wasting my time?

[Angel1111]

I don't know why he didn't/can't just tell her, I'm sorry but it's over, I'm leaving to be with SB. If he really wanted to be with me for sure, he would just do that. I guess it's as simple as that, so why am I wasting my time?

 

In the sense of waiting this one out, I don't think you're wasting your time - especially not nearly as much as most of us OW have wasted our time with men who never left their marriages. And not having a relationship with him until he's divorced is kind of a moot point now because you were together right before he left, so why all of a sudden would you stop seeing him? That wouldn't make any sense. It would be like punishing him for moving out.

 

I think by now you know my stance on this guy, and I think you've already made a good decision about your feelings on this issue, too. But based on what I think I know about him, I do think it's a very strong possibility that his wife has kicked him out; that she gave him a certain number of days to find a place to live. This would explain why she's filing for divorce and not him. The only reason this would be relevant to you is because if that is what happened, then he's waiting to see if she'll take him back. It's very possible that she might, or she might be sick to death of him and would refuse to take him back. If I remember right, they have a long history together - and kids - so the desire to take him back will probably be strong. I recall that when my ex and I separated and I had even filed for divorce; he continued to contact me and say that things had changed and about a month later, I retracted the filing of the divorce and we tried again (this was before I realized that verbally abusive people don't ever change). We divorced about a year and a half later.

 

Just something to think about - because if he's lying to you, then you have no way of knowing what's going on behind the scenes; you won't necessarily know if he's contacting her and trying to get her to take him back or not. And this is very typical of verbally abusive people and their relationships, so that's why I bring it up. I know you're being smart and you've probably already thought about all this anyway.

[Star_Bright]

In the sense of waiting this one out, I don't think you're wasting your time - especially not nearly as much as most of us OW have wasted our time with men who never left their marriages. And not having a relationship with him until he's divorced is kind of a moot point now because you were together right before he left, so why all of a sudden would you stop seeing him? That wouldn't make any sense. It would be like punishing him for moving out.

 

True! That is my exact rationale for staying with him or, as some have put it (which is fine because that's how they see it), taking him back. We've come this far and we're closer to being together than we were when he was living there. As he says, the first step is moving out. So yeah it's hard for me to say, oops, never mind, I meant now we can't be together until you're totally divorced.

 

I think by now you know my stance on this guy, and I think you've already made a good decision about your feelings on this issue, too. But based on what I think I know about him, I do think it's a very strong possibility that his wife has kicked him out; that she gave him a certain number of days to find a place to live. This would explain why she's filing for divorce and not him. The only reason this would be relevant to you is because if that is what happened, then he's waiting to see if she'll take him back. It's very possible that she might, or she might be sick to death of him and would refuse to take him back. If I remember right, they have a long history together - and kids - so the desire to take him back will probably be strong. I recall that when my ex and I separated and I had even filed for divorce; he continued to contact me and say that things had changed and about a month later, I retracted the filing of the divorce and we tried again (this was before I realized that verbally abusive people don't ever change). We divorced about a year and a half later.

 

Yes, this is my concern! Part of it is my pride; I start to think, "I don't want him if it's because she threw him out." And then I'm like, well, why not? I wanted him, I got him. So then my next thought is, how long could this take, if he is trying to get back in her good graces??

 

He has said that she was cold and distant to him and then he was surprised when she was concerned about him the evening he moved out. So to me there are signs that point to her being so fed up with him that she either agreed that he should move out (which in some ways I could see irking him just as much as kicking him out, because she's not begging and pleading for him to stay with her), or telling him to be out by this date if he doesn't cut things off with me (so why not cut things off with me instead of begging me to stay with him???), or, yeah, as you say, telling him he must be out by this date, no matter what he does or doesn't do (even though he swears this isn't the case; she hasn't kicked him out). It is all so confusing.

 

I guess it comes down to whether I trust him or not and at this point I'm just not sure. I don't know why he would spend every free minute seeing me, calling me, texting me, etc. if he had any hope of saving the marriage. Perhaps she had gotten sick of him and then he turned to me? And now if she shows signs of letting him back in, he would go? He pretty much admitted to that yesterday when I told him, "It seems that if she said, come back home, all is forgiven, let's just be a family again, then you would want to do that," and he thought about it for a minute and said, "Yeah, but there's the StarBright factor." Okay... so he WOULD go back home if I wasn't a factor, even though things were so bad there? I just don't get it, it makes my head spin.

 

He's told me recently that she's said things like, he messed up, and she can't forgive him, and he wouldn't forgive her if she'd done that, etc. So maybe he is just with me because he doesn't think he can still be with her. And if he COULD still be with her, I don't know if he'd still want to be with me, or if he'd toss me out like yesterday's garbage. I guess if I'm not SURE it's not the latter then I should walk away. Because I don't want to be tossed out like garbage and I don't want it to all depend on her and what she decides to do. I wanted him to man up and decide and he's just not doing that.

 

Just something to think about - because if he's lying to you, then you have no way of knowing what's going on behind the scenes; you won't necessarily know if he's contacting her and trying to get her to take him back or not. And this is very typical of verbally abusive people and their relationships, so that's why I bring it up. I know you're being smart and you've probably already thought about all this anyway.

 

True, I have no way to know. I hate being in the dark. I think I am done with this... again... why am I so inconsistent?

 

Thanks for your totally objective advice, it really helps me wake up to some things that, yes, I've already been pondering in the back of my mind.

[Angel1111]

He probably wants to be with both of you but he knows that's not going to fly. And reading about him leaving his kids and home, it really did break my heart to hear about it. A man once told me that there are many different types of love - and a marriage is one of the most tangled webs you'll ever encounter. So I think it's only natural that he would want to go back if he had the opportunity - that's his home, that his family, etc.

 

Really, though, I don't think you need to over-noodle this too much. I think you just need to sit back, enjoy life as it currently is, and don't react unless something happens that gives you reason to. As long as you're aware of the possibility that moving out isn't necessarily the end of his marriage, and all the other factors. Only time is going to give you answers so I say have fun and see where it takes you.

[Brokenlady]

Sb,

He refuses to tell W it's over.....because it isn't. My DM did the SAME thing. He let her file, and never did come out and say he was never coming back. It's part of not definitively choosing either woman. This is precisely the wushu washiness that had him taking xw with his kids on vacation behind my back post-separation. This is what caused him to lie to his xw about our engagement post-divorce. Don't you see?

 

The IC is telling him to go home because he is telegraphing that that is what he wants. My DMs therapist told him to be with me. Had he advised otherwise I know he would have gone back to xw because he needed someone else to guide him. And at least he made it clear that he wanted to be with me in therapy. You're mm isn't even doing that. It's very worrisome.

 

EEG is right on so many things. And she knows what she's talking about.

[Star_Bright]

He probably wants to be with both of you but he knows that's not going to fly. And reading about him leaving his kids and home, it really did break my heart to hear about it. A man once told me that there are many different types of love - and a marriage is one of the most tangled webs you'll ever encounter. So I think it's only natural that he would want to go back if he had the opportunity - that's his home, that his family, etc.

 

Really, though, I don't think you need to over-noodle this too much. I think you just need to sit back, enjoy life as it currently is, and don't react unless something happens that gives you reason to. As long as you're aware of the possibility that moving out isn't necessarily the end of his marriage, and all the other factors. Only time is going to give you answers so I say have fun and see where it takes you.

 

I wish I could follow this advice but I am a very all-or-nothing person, and, as MM always points out, I think a lot and worry about things. To me if I know he is just trying to get back into his wife's good graces, I can't be with him. Now if he is genuinely confused, wanting to be with me but having a hard time leaving his family behind, I can understand that and deal with it. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I do. But my issue is I tell him to only be with me if he is sure he is getting divorced. That I understand if he isn't sure and I won't be mad, but I can't be with him if he's unsure because that's not best for anyone involved. He tells me he IS sure but then he says and does things that show me he isn't sure. So I guess he HAS to tell me he's sure because that's the condition upon which I said I'd be with him.

 

I guess since that's the case I have to go with my gut and determine that even though he says he's sure, he's actually not, and that's not okay with me. It just isn't. I want to be the only woman in his life if we are going to be together, and either he is actively working towards that or he isn't. I can handle him going back or him telling me he's not sure and I walk. But I can't handle him telling me he's sure but then acting differently; I can't handle not knowing what's really going on!

[Star_Bright]

Sb,

He refuses to tell W it's over.....because it isn't. My DM did the SAME thing. He let her file, and never did come out and say he was never coming back. It's part of not definitively choosing either woman. This is precisely the wushu washiness that had him taking xw with his kids on vacation behind my back post-separation. This is what caused him to lie to his xw about our engagement post-divorce. Don't you see?

 

The IC is telling him to go home because he is telegraphing that that is what he wants. My DMs therapist told him to be with me. Had he advised otherwise I know he would have gone back to xw because he needed someone else to guide him. And at least he made it clear that he wanted to be with me in therapy. You're mm isn't even doing that. It's very worrisome.

 

EEG is right on so many things. And she knows what she's talking about.

 

MM told me he started seeing the therapist after I went NC, to help him deal with getting over me. But then he decided he doesn't want to get over me, that it's me he really wants, and now he spends all his IC sessions convincing his therapist that he wants to be with me, not his wife. I don't know if it makes any difference that this therapist was once his wife's therapist and their couple's therapist in the past too. So I can see why she would have a bias towards keeping them together, especially if he first went there and said, help me focus on my marriage instead of my OW.

 

So far... yeah I know it's early to say, but... MM hasn't kept anything from me about his wife, I know when he talks to her and sees her and he doesn't hide that from me or do it behind my back.

 

I do think it's worrisome that he is making his wife file instead of doing it himself. That makes me lose respect for him and I've told him that.

[UntoldStory]

MM told me he started seeing the therapist after I went NC, to help him deal with getting over me. But then he decided he doesn't want to get over me, that it's me he really wants, and now he spends all his IC sessions convincing his therapist that he wants to be with me, not his wife. I don't know if it makes any difference that this therapist was once his wife's therapist and their couple's therapist in the past too. So I can see why she would have a bias towards keeping them together, especially if he first went there and said, help me focus on my marriage instead of my OW.

 

SB, I haven't posted on your thread before but I am totally there with you, supporting you as I read your story. Waiting and not knowing for sure what he doesn't know for sure either is truly one definition of hell in my book.

 

Re: the bolded part... from personal experience, IT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE that who he's seeing for IC used to be her therapist and their couples' therapist. That therapist absolutely has an interest in seeing him stay married. As someone wise once told me, divorce lawyers make money off divorces, therapists make money off unhappy marriages. As someone who's been in both MC and IC, in that exact situation, I realize it's not quite that simple... but it wasn't until I got my own therapist and got out of the love triangle that was me and stbxH sharing a therapist that I started really healing and being able to be truly heard by the person I was/am paying for guidance.

[Brokenlady]

Sb, DM was extremely open and honest with me too at first. I overheard many of his phone calls with is xw and I'd hear him tell her that he wasn't sure if he wanted a divorce or not. As time went on and I got increasingly frustrated with his waffling, that's when the lies started. Your mm is following right in DMs footsteps.

 

I agree with untold about the therapist, ESP if the wife is still seeing him. The therapist probably should have referred him out.

[2sure]

That therapist absolutely has an interest in seeing him stay married. As someone wise once told me, divorce lawyers make money off divorces, therapists make money off unhappy marriages.

 

That makes sense.

 

But SB says her MM is now spending his IC "convincing" his therapist he wants to be with SB.

 

Why would a therapist, even one that had the BS in mind...need convincing of anything if it has been honestly discussed? Why would someone in IC need to justify a decision that has already been made?? A MC would not suggest someone stay married if they were in love with someone else and wanted out. Thats not fair to either.

 

I would be concerned he is using the advice he says he is given in IC to justify still not making a decision or to once again - take the making of a decision out of his hands. Thats where he is going with this.

People who have made a decision, dont need to convince a counselor its the right one...they would see a counselor only to explore the options of communicating the decision to others.

[UntoldStory]

Why would a therapist, even one that had the BS in mind...need convincing of anything if it has been honestly discussed? Why would someone in IC need to justify a decision that has already been made?? A MC would not suggest someone stay married if they were in love with someone else and wanted out. Thats not fair to either.

Completely agree with you, but for instance, if the therapist has a religious bent, or is anti-divorce, or is just a bad therapist, it happens.

 

 

People who have made a decision, dont need to convince a counselor its the right one...they would see a counselor only to explore the options of communicating the decision to others.

100% agree with this, too. And the conclusion is (as SB is aware) that he actually hasn't made a clean decision in his own head and heart yet.