Does the BS owe this to the OW?

[lilbunny]

When I get particularly annoyed with MM about something I always feel I would love to compare notes.

 

My first question would be, how the hell do you put up with his snoring?

 

To repsond to the OP I would like to know, yes.

 

But I can;t imagine many scenarios where it would be likely to happen.

 

I can relate to that one!

[wheelwright]

In all honesty, the idea of an OOW in our context would mess me up so badly, I couldn't believe it. It would make a mockery of it all.

 

I did find he had minor sexual contact with an 18 year old after we split. I believe this is what instigated his DDay.

 

But that didn't bother me. I feel very sure that the feelings we had were real and new for both, and that precludes him doing that with everyone.

 

Yes I would want to know, but I'd need proof.

 

Because honestly, if he was capable of that then I would be the world's biggest fool. Not a title I'm going to sport unless forced to!

[Spark1111]

This is so true. My xH had many many OW through the years our M lasted so I've run in to all types. The most frustrating is the one who covers for him because he has convinced her that I'll take the kids away:rolleyes: and insists they are only friends or even that they don't know each other at all. A couple of them have gone so far as to say " Oh, he is just friends with my bf I don't really even talk to him" . The couple that did actually take my call and speak openly with me were very refreshing. It allowed me to finally move on and for them to as well(till the last one). I spent maybe 4hrs on the phone with the last one comparing notes and realized this guy is a pro. His lies are incredible. Funny enough when she found out I had GPS on his phone that I never deactivated she started to call me to see where he was. This is how she started to catch him in lies as well. She told me one day that "it's amazing how he turned me against you for so long so I wouldn't talk to you, he really painted one hell of a different story then who you really are". She expected me to be vindictive and unstable. She was completely floored when I was so nice and calm. After all was said and done with that I've remained civil and friendly with her. She even came crying to me one night(after the divorce was final) to ask for relationship advice on how to deal with him...and boy that was an interesting conversation.

A MMs best tactic is to make the OW and the BS not trust each other so that they will not compare notes. When he looses that power he is f*cked.

 

 

Porter, my H xOW would never take my call --three kind ones in a 24 hour period expressing when she could reach me and extending an olive branch.

 

This was months after DDay.

 

They worked together and I left three messages saying "Let's put his behind us." I didnt want any surprises in the event we ever bumped into each other at a company event and assumed she wouldn't either. But no dice. Covering for him? herself?

 

It was sooooo frustrating.

[Spark1111]

I think informing someone is the ethical thing to do, if for no other reason it allows the person more choices - however...

 

It is hard to accept and believe information from someone who has a vested interest in seeing you fail.

 

Well that is one assumption, But it could be a very false one.

 

I did not want to see anyone fall. I actually felt empathy for a the OW in my sitch.

 

I think the MP often fosters this assumption. It keeps the two parties far apart.

[Spark1111]

In answer to the question: No

 

I think motivation (the motive behind the motive) is everything, this is the ethics IMO.

 

I think it is an individual decision, and if the heart is right, so shall the outcome...

 

But see, IF IT is the truth, despite the motive or intention it is offered in, wouldn't you still want to know?

 

Maybe you would discount it initially, or you would be in denial about it, but someone had at least the courage to tell you the truth.

 

To me, this is huge and supercedes motive.

 

I always believe truth trumps all.

[Spark1111]

In all honesty, the idea of an OOW in our context would mess me up so badly, I couldn't believe it. It would make a mockery of it all.

 

I did find he had minor sexual contact with an 18 year old after we split. I believe this is what instigated his DDay.

 

But that didn't bother me. I feel very sure that the feelings we had were real and new for both, and that precludes him doing that with everyone.

 

Yes I would want to know, but I'd need proof.

 

Because honestly, if he was capable of that then I would be the world's biggest fool. Not a title I'm going to sport unless forced to!

 

Well, WW, even when proof was offered on a silver platter, the OW in my office chose not? did not want to believe these women were more than the "friends" he had described them as.

 

So even truth, when offered by the BS, did not win out until the MM had broken up with her. Did not win out after the break up, because she soooo needed to believe the feelings between them were real.

 

I am not sure the truth wins out today, because she still needs to believe her feelings were real.

[fooled once]

I wasn't sure where to post this initially. An ethics debate, though.

 

I have read the viewpoint that the AP does not owe anything to the BS; that it is MP breaking the vows and the BS should take up their issues with their spouse.

 

Some say true; some say true but have compassion if contacted; some say not true.

 

Okay, how about this scenario:

 

Separated MM, claims to his OW to be heading for divorce.

 

His W, however, is still hoping to reconcile with him, unbeknownst to his OW.

 

His W, on DDAY for her, apparently discovers not only his OW, but daily contact with several other single or divorced women, and thinks hiw OW should know she is not the only woman he has been seeing and speaking to.

 

Does the BS owe this information to the OW?

 

Regardless of the motivation of telling this information, would you want to be informed if your MP had other men or women they were seeing or speaking to on such a regular basis as to be......suspect?

 

Would you want to know?

 

nope cause remember, the OW isn't in a relationship with the BS so the BS doesn't owe the OW anything either, since she isn't in a relationship with her.

[wheelwright]

Well, WW, even when proof was offered on a silver platter, the OW in my office chose not? did not want to believe these women were more than the "friends" he had described them as.

 

So even truth, when offered by the BS, did not win out until the MM had broken up with her. Did not win out after the break up, because she soooo needed to believe the feelings between them were real.

 

I am not sure the truth wins out today, because she still needs to believe her feelings were real.

 

Scary thought. And there are dragons off the edge of the map.

 

I'm with her, she's guarding her sanity.

 

I get you now Spark. You are smart as heck. I think.

 

Well anyway, I thought for a moment that you were saying that's what we all do. Even if I was wrong about your message, it felt like a small but significant epiphany. In seeing the other's viewpoint.

 

So thanks for that, cos it's rare.

[Spark1111]

nope cause remember, the OW isn't in a relationship with the BS so the BS doesn't owe the OW anything either, since she isn't in a relationship with her.

 

And denial can be a beautiful thing.

 

Hell, I'm as guilty of it as anyone.

 

But this BS was actually taking pity on this OW, and decided she needed a heads up, and was trying to say, nicely, my H has apparently lost his f'n mind, and please be careful here.

 

And no one was listening becaise no one wanted to hear her.

 

Why?

 

He had them all snowed. He had them ALL convinced his stbxw was crazy, a lush, vindicative, and didn't love him to boot!

 

Imagine that?

 

Guess what he did?

 

Dumped the OW, divorced his W, faded quietly away from the OOW and "friends with benefits" and found a brand new, very sweet woman who thinks he is God's gift.

 

A woman who knew NOTHING of his past behavior. A woman who he could wipe the slate completely clean with. A woman who would worship the ground he walked on with no interference from his former posse of mess or truth telling BS.

 

No consequences whatsoever.

 

Except his kids hate him. Oh, well.....

[Spark1111]

Scary thought. And there are dragons off the edge of the map.

 

I'm with her, she's guarding her sanity.

 

I get you now Spark. You are smart as heck. I think.

 

Well anyway, I thought for a moment that you were saying that's what we all do. Even if I was wrong about your message, it felt like a small but significant epiphany. In seeing the other's viewpoint.

 

So thanks for that, cos it's rare.

 

There are always dragons at the edge of the map. Carry pepper spray!

 

Judge a person by their actions.... (18 years old, huh? THINK ABOUT THAT)

 

And always protect your sanity until you are ready to examine the truth.

 

But take all the courage you can with you. Truth is not for the faint of heart.

[turnstone]

I'd venture a guess at a small minority and out of them I'd imagine 99% would have done it through spite.

 

I informed all the OW about each other all at the same time - I knew it was the right thing to do because of the STD. But although I also got a real sense of satisfaction about the worry and stress it caused them (AFAIK they all knew he was married), I felt far more satisfaction in knowing my exH was at last not going to be able to continue abusing at least some women. So yeah, spite I guess, although I like to think of it more as poetic justice, for the whole shooting match.

 

I think informing someone is the ethical thing to do, if for no other reason it allows the person more choices - however...

 

It is hard to accept and believe information from someone who has a vested interest in seeing you fail.

 

Yes, that's right and I'm sure that many of my exH's OW wouldn't have believed a word out of my mouth even if my motives had been completely pure, had it not been for my lawyer being involved and the evidence of an STD. Why would they when they seemingly had the catch of the century, anyway? I know if I had been the OW I probably wouldn't.

[Spark1111]

I informed all the OW about each other all at the same time - I knew it was the right thing to do because of the STD. But although I also got a real sense of satisfaction about the worry and stress it caused them (AFAIK they all knew he was married), I felt far more satisfaction in knowing my exH was at last not going to be able to continue abusing at least some women. So yeah, spite I guess, although I like to think of it more as poetic justice, for the whole shooting match.

 

 

 

Yes, that's right and I'm sure that many of my exH's OW wouldn't have believed a word out of my mouth even if my motives had been completely pure, had it not been for my lawyer being involved and the evidence of an STD. Why would they when they seemingly had the catch of the century, anyway? I know if I had been the OW I probably wouldn't.

 

Hey turnstone! STDs are another thing! health and safety first right?

 

And I do not CARE why you informed me (motive).

 

You maybe helped save my life.

 

So, who in their right mind would question this true info?

 

Who would not run to get tested?

[turnstone]

The 'motive' argument is only so much flak to cloud anything that could be construed as good about the BS. I prefer to subscribe to the notion of doing the right thing in the right way, whatever the motive.

 

As for the 'who wouldn't want to know that sort of info?' - well, I once would've asked who would want to sleep with a married man? I know the answer now, unfortunately.

[porter218]

Porter, my H xOW would never take my call --three kind ones in a 24 hour period expressing when she could reach me and extending an olive branch.

 

This was months after DDay.

 

They worked together and I left three messages saying "Let's put his behind us." I didnt want any surprises in the event we ever bumped into each other at a company event and assumed she wouldn't either. But no dice. Covering for him? herself?

 

It was sooooo frustrating.

 

I usually found this to be the case when my xH was still in contact with the OW.

Avoiding me was something he was continually telling her she HAD to do. The way I found this type of woman would answer my calls if I called her from his phone, from another number she didn't know, or just leave a VM assuring her this isn't something you will tell your H about and there is something important she needs to know. If you don't have access to his phone you can go to spoofcard.com and create whatever # you want to use to call from. But if you don't have access to his phone after an affair I wouldn't even want to work things out because that is suspicious.

[porter218]

There are always dragons at the edge of the map. Carry pepper spray!

 

Judge a person by their actions.... (18 years old, huh? THINK ABOUT THAT)

 

And always protect your sanity until you are ready to examine the truth.

 

But take all the courage you can with you. Truth is not for the faint of heart.

Yup! Often one will not actually accept or listen to the truth until the are fully prepared and ready to deal with it. I often didn't want to hear the truth because I made the mistake of asking for it before I was really ready for it.

[Spark1111]

It would probably depend on the approach. In the middle of the A, this is what I would have been inclined to believe. Or to get back at me, revenge...to create doubt and suspicion.

 

Regardless of which foot the shoe is on, I believe proof is necessary to get someone's attention. No one wants to believe it so it takes very little from the MM to explain it away. I think this holds true on either side (BS or OW).

 

Without the proof I may have further vilified the W and then truly felt justified doing so. I know that's not a great answer, but it's possibly how I would have felt.

 

If she approached me in an open and non-confrontational manner, my reaction might not be exactly the same, but I think the result would. Proof would be required. Otherwise MM would explain it away. It just might leave a seed of doubt if I intuited BS's intentions were honest.

 

So if she had proof she was willing to share, then yes, by all means I would want to know. Without it, only a seed of doubt might be planted at best.

 

And no, I don't think the BS owes any of that to the OW.

 

This is honest.

 

But good luck getting an OW to return a phone call, or a message left on the answering machine.

 

I personally would not leave "proof" in a message. I would do as the BS did, try to reach the OW directly, maybe in an effort to PROVE I wasn't a vindictive alcoholic.

 

Only when other employees began to intercept these phone calls intended for the OW, did the office sit her down and say, "This is a reasonable and articulate woman. Return her calls now!"

 

The first time the OW did, she just listened. At the end of the call, she said (regarding the BS) "Well, I'm not sure, but she might have been slurring her words."

 

We all looked at her like she had two heads.

 

Ah, denial....what a beautiful thing.

[Hazyhead]

I informed all the OW about each other all at the same time - I knew it was the right thing to do because of the STD. But although I also got a real sense of satisfaction about the worry and stress it caused them (AFAIK they all knew he was married), I felt far more satisfaction in knowing my exH was at last not going to be able to continue abusing at least some women. So yeah, spite I guess, although I like to think of it more as poetic justice, for the whole shooting match.

 

IF it was me (BS) I would reveal it, probably for these same reasons. But as you also say Turnstone, it matters not the motive just that the right thing is done. As far as the BS owing it to the OW, I don't think so. The BS owes the OW nothing - she must only look out for herself and her loved ones.

 

Denial, however, is sometimes so strong that even when handed the truth undeniably, some will refuse to believe - even with a man with a track record of lies.

[lilbunny]

This is honest.

 

But good luck getting an OW to return a phone call, or a message left on the answering machine.

 

I personally would not leave "proof" in a message. I would do as the BS did, try to reach the OW directly, maybe in an effort to PROVE I wasn't a vindictive alcoholic.

 

Only when other employees began to intercept these phone calls intended for the OW, did the office sit her down and say, "This is a reasonable and articulate woman. Return her calls now!"

 

The first time the OW did, she just listened. At the end of the call, she said (regarding the BS) "Well, I'm not sure, but she might have been slurring her words."

 

We all looked at her like she had two heads.

 

Ah, denial....what a beautiful thing.

 

This really surprises me that I have such a different view. It seems that most in that situation wouldn't respond, but I would 100%.

 

I wonder xmm never, ever said anything negative or unpleasant about his wife. He didn't speak about her much and anything he did say was positive. Perhaps that is why I take such a different view.

 

I think if anything I at least owe her an explanation and an apology, and really the right to say whatever it is she wants to say, unpleasant to hear as it might be, she should at least have the opportunity to vent if needs be. I would never tell her myself, I think that is the responsibility of the WS, but if she found out I'm not going to deny her the chance to do whatever she needs to do.

 

It's an interesting one you've raised Spark.

[Summer Breeze]

This really surprises me that I have such a different view. It seems that most in that situation wouldn't respond, but I would 100%.

 

I wonder xmm never, ever said anything negative or unpleasant about his wife. He didn't speak about her much and anything he did say was positive. Perhaps that is why I take such a different view.

 

I think if anything I at least owe her an explanation and an apology, and really the right to say whatever it is she wants to say, unpleasant to hear as it might be, she should at least have the opportunity to vent if needs be. I would never tell her myself, I think that is the responsibility of the WS, but if she found out I'm not going to deny her the chance to do whatever she needs to do.

 

It's an interesting one you've raised Spark.

 

We had 3 Ddays and after each of them his BS contacted me. I didn't owe her anything and she didn't owe me anything. I had always wanted to be honest with her and as I'd always told him - if she contacts me and we have direct communication I will never lie. I didn't. She asked, I answered. At one point she raised her voice and called me a name and I told her she was out of line and if she wanted to carry on in a civil fashion to call me the next day. So we ened up having a total of 5 calls after the 3 ddays. He knew from day 1 that if she ever called me and she involved me in their R then all bets were off. Shocked him the first time and he expected it the next two.

 

I know that's OT but there seemed to be some chatter about OW not responding and it isn't always the case. I didn't have a 'pact' with exMM but he knew as long as I was outside the day to day of their R I was happy to go about my business but if I was drawn into it then God help him.

[lilbunny]

We had 3 Ddays and after each of them his BS contacted me. I didn't owe her anything and she didn't owe me anything. I had always wanted to be honest with her and as I'd always told him - if she contacts me and we have direct communication I will never lie. I didn't. She asked, I answered. At one point she raised her voice and called me a name and I told her she was out of line and if she wanted to carry on in a civil fashion to call me the next day. So we ened up having a total of 5 calls after the 3 ddays. He knew from day 1 that if she ever called me and she involved me in their R then all bets were off. Shocked him the first time and he expected it the next two.

 

I know that's OT but there seemed to be some chatter about OW not responding and it isn't always the case. I didn't have a 'pact' with exMM but he knew as long as I was outside the day to day of their R I was happy to go about my business but if I was drawn into it then God help him.

 

I see this very differently.

 

If I break it down to the raw facts, regardless of why I did it, my own feelings, what the WS said etc, ultimately I slept with her husband, if she wanted to scream at me and call me every name under the sun I can take it and pretty much deserve it. I can't say I'd feel any different in her shoes, so I do feel that I owe her that.

 

I think if she wanted to slap me in the face I'd be able to say fair dos. Anything above that I might have to call a halt to it, but no I think she is entitled to be angry and has every right to express it. I don't think trying to talk about anything at that point would be constructive, so I can see why you wouldn't get into that converation.

 

Interesting how differently people see the same thing.

[Summer Breeze]

I see this very differently.

 

If I break it down to the raw facts, regardless of why I did it, my own feelings, what the WS said etc, ultimately I slept with her husband, if she wanted to scream at me and call me every name under the sun I can take it and pretty much deserve it. I can't say I'd feel any different in her shoes, so I do feel that I owe her that.

 

I think if she wanted to slap me in the face I'd be able to say fair dos. Anything above that I might have to call a halt to it, but no I think she is entitled to be angry and has every right to express it. I don't think trying to talk about anything at that point would be constructive, so I can see why you wouldn't get into that converation.

 

Interesting how differently people see the same thing.

 

I was a BS and I didn't blame the OW. Who my exH slept with was inconsequential. The issue I had was with him and that was it. I had no right to speak to her disrespectfully or to slap her. Him on the other hand I could have beaten to a bloody pulp! My view is the BS has an issue with the person who betrayed her-period. I know I look at things differently but that's how I felt and how I feel. I don't owe her anything. I was happy enough to answer her questions but I didn't owe it to her.

 

She's welcome to express all the anger she wants-to her WS but not to me. I'll cut her some slack but if it becomes an attack I'd end it.

 

Like I said that's just me and my feelings as an OW were born from being a BS. Sorry for the t/j here!

[Tsm]

I owe her nothing, and she owes me nothing. chances are that when she does tell me i wouldnt believe her anyway....

[greengoddess]

The BS does not owe this information to the OW but if she would want to infom me as an OW, it would definitely be welcome.

 

I like to know all information necessary to draw the right conclusions on the relationship I am in.

 

 

but of course you will not give his wife this same information.

[2sure]

My H DID have various OW. And yes, I told them about each other via a group email announcing that he had been diagnosed with an STD. Let them fight it out.

[Spark1111]

Spark, get real. There was never an olive branch from you to her. You hate her guts, you show it in a lot of posts. I think the aim of your call was to tell her "I won the competition between you and me. He choose me." So I think it is logical that she did not want to talk to you.

 

You say one thing but you show another. You say that you have empathy for the OW but on the other hand you are very negative about her (I can understand that, it is normal but then don't pretend to be oh so good and positive). You also say that you are happier than ever with your H then why do you keep talking so much about the A. It's like you keep opening a wound that was about to close.

 

Hey, Walk in the Park....

 

I have been posting here for over two years...

 

My negativity of the OW did not develop until she broke NC last November and the reality of her versus my imagination were very, very different....

 

Also, there has been some bunny boiler actions, which I have ignored, but which has angered my fWS, including telling lies about me!

 

And in the course of all this, we have both learned that she lied about many many other things to my fWS, which have knocked her former halo off for him, I guess.

 

Won a competition? My spouse at DDAY?

 

Hahahahaha, now you get real.

 

Hate to burst your bubble, but I am extremely good and positive. Always have been.

 

And, the purpose of this thread is to show that the affair dynamic, us against them, is perfect design of mistrust perpetuated to keep the AP and BS far, far, apart.

 

And WHO does that protect?

THe cheater.

 

And what does an office situation have to do with the current state of my happy marriage?

 

Are you suggesting I not post at LS because my marriage is once a gain, a happy one?