Should I call her?

[NoIDidn't]

NID you misinterpreted what I meant.

 

What I meant is, Hazy doesnt want anything to do with him. He's come round and gaslighted her in the hopes she will take him back.

 

HE Is the bunny boiler but there is no equivalent derogatory name for xMM who just wont let it die....whereas if the OW did that she would be a bunny boiler

 

LOL. You are right. I did misinterpret you. Apologies.

 

I don't think he's being a BB though. He's just acting like he owns her and can use her feelings whenever he wants. He is very much in control of his emotions and wants to control hers too.

 

Bunny boilers aren't known for being in control of their emotions.

 

There has to be a name for what he is doing beyond calling him a sociopath. I don't think that fits and it gets thrown around far too much.

[Hazyhead]

LOL. You are right. I did misinterpret you. Apologies.

 

I don't think he's being a BB though. He's just acting like he owns her and can use her feelings whenever he wants. He is very much in control of his emotions and wants to control hers too.

 

Bunny boilers aren't known for being in control of their emotions.

 

There has to be a name for what he is doing beyond calling him a sociopath. I don't think that fits and it gets thrown around far too much.

 

This is really interesting NiD. I hadn't thought of that. His relationship with his wife is very much like that - he is the boss and, as it seems so far since dday, has told her how she should get over it. I really think he's not used to hearing no from people.

[NoIDidn't]

Thank you NiD. You know, I can't 100% say it's an altruistic act, though I haven't figured out my full feelings but I do know for sure I never want to hear from him again. I bear no ill towards his wife, at all, and knowing that she wants, more than anything, to try to work it out, is holding me back from telling her. I'm afraid the sob-stories have worked on me and I would feel even guiltier for blowing her hopes apart.

 

This is what I think I'm going to do: I have copied all my evidence into an email (it's a lot), I will send it to him and tell him that any hint of contact and it will be hand delivered, by me, to his wife. I seemed to have scared him today and it's the first true remorse I've seen. Maybe he'll do the right thing himself. I want to give them that chance.

 

Please don't do this. This seems bunny boiler-ish. If you want to tell her the truth, she doesn't need those emails. She just needs the words from you. The spoken words. Anything else is using her hurt to hurt him. Telling her, you are using his fear of losing her against him. He obviously doesn't want to lose her if he's using his kid, a new baby, to keep you fearful of hurting her and the baby.

 

Too many MM have posted over the years about their OW mailing all the emails to them or their home for their W to see. And in every case, it came off as bunny boiler behavior.

 

Just telling him that you have her phone number or his home number and will call to speak to her if he contacts you again should suffice to keep him at bay. But you MUST actually have them AND be willing to use them.

 

You want her to know the truth, not break her heart and have her remembering everything she read for the rest of her life.

[Hazyhead]

Please don't do this. This seems bunny boiler-ish. If you want to tell her the truth, she doesn't need those emails. She just needs the words from you. The spoken words. Anything else is using her hurt to hurt him. Telling her, you are using his fear of losing her against him. He obviously doesn't want to lose her if he's using his kid, a new baby, to keep you fearful of hurting her and the baby.

 

Too many MM have posted over the years about their OW mailing all the emails to them or their home for their W to see. And in every case, it came off as bunny boiler behavior.

 

Just telling him that you have her phone number or his home number and will call to speak to her if he contacts you again should suffice to keep him at bay. But you MUST actually have them AND be willing to use them.

 

You want her to know the truth, not break her heart and have her remembering everything she read for the rest of her life.

 

I see your point. Thinking on anyway, he'll know I could produce evidence so there's really no need to force that issue. She rang me after the first dday, but really didn't want to know, maybe it was still too fresh, but I think that might come across as bunny boiler ish to her, too. What about writing her a letter, a brief one, giving her my number again (since he threw it out on her)?

[Hazyhead]

I haven't had time to read all of the responses but you could do what I did on dday number 2.

 

I told him that he needed to tell her. Everything. I gave him till a certain time that night and told him that if he hadn't told her everything then I would. I knew it would burn the bridges and I knew he would tell her rather than have me do it. I told him that if he chose to tell her I would send her emails and photos so if he thought he could avoid telling her things he was wrong because I would be random in what I sent. He told her and I emailed. He sent me horribly scathing emails and I went about my business. When I was done sending her the random emails she rang. We talked. They stayed together and 4 months later there was another dday.

 

Force his hand to be honest and if he isn't prepared to then tell him you are. Make the miserable SOB man up or once. If he hasn't got the balls to do it alone give him a good hard shove.

 

Sorry, Summer, I missed your post the first time. He knows I have these things - as we both do I think, and I fear that doing this may cause her to cling to him even more, which I suppose if she's going to do at leats she does so a bit more informed.

 

I just don't know. Maybe I'll sleep on it for a couple of days.

[PhoenixRise]

HH

 

I get what you are saying about not wanting to hurt her further. You don't want her to be crushed at the knowledge that he hasn't changed and is still looking to cheat. You feel compassion for her and this is a good thing.

 

From the standpoint of a FBS I can tell you that after dday and when we got to the "thinking about staying married phase of things" my hopes were for an authentic reconciliation. Real remorse. A real change in my H, a real rebirth of our marriage. Nothing less would have satisfied me. I didn't want and would never have accepted the fake appearance of a restored marriage. My husband and I have been happily reconciled for a while now but I can tell you that if his feelings for me and our marriage were not sincere, if he was not at least as dedicated to restoring us as I was I would have wanted to know. I would have welcomed a call/email/ letter/ smoke signal from the FOW letting me know the truth.

 

I know that not all BS are alike and not everybody will react the way I would have, and I know you are saying you may not be ready for any potential fall out (understandable)

 

I am just saying that you shouldn't feel like YOU have to help maintain an illusion for her to keep from hurting her. Her H's actions ARE hurting her, the truth might set her free. She may be a woman who would appreciate knowing the truth about her life.

 

I also want to say that I think this business of having ones motives be 100% pure before you do something that you believe is the right thing is unrealistic. People are complex and mixed motives are par for the course.

 

I think you are motivated in this case by compassion but you would not be human if you didn't feel anger too.

[Summer Breeze]

Sorry, Summer, I missed your post the first time. He knows I have these things - as we both do I think, and I fear that doing this may cause her to cling to him even more, which I suppose if she's going to do at leats she does so a bit more informed.

 

I just don't know. Maybe I'll sleep on it for a couple of days.

 

I understand your hesitation to tell her but my thoughts are you should. I'd force him to and if he refused I'd tell her. What she decides to do with the information is her business. If she clings to him I can almost guarantee there will be enough doubt that she'll be watching for him to stray again in the future.

 

At the end of the day you need to do what's right for you. Good luck honey.

[Summer Breeze]

HH

 

I get what you are saying about not wanting to hurt her further. You don't want her to be crushed at the knowledge that he hasn't changed and is still looking to cheat. You feel compassion for her and this is a good thing.

 

From the standpoint of a FBS I can tell you that after dday and when we got to the "thinking about staying married phase of things" my hopes were for an authentic reconciliation. Real remorse. A real change in my H, a real rebirth of our marriage. Nothing less would have satisfied me. I didn't want and would never have accepted the fake appearance of a restored marriage. My husband and I have been happily reconciled for a while now but I can tell you that if his feelings for me and our marriage were not sincere, if he was not at least as dedicated to restoring us as I was I would have wanted to know. I would have welcomed a call/email/ letter/ smoke signal from the FOW letting me know the truth.

 

I know that not all BS are alike and not everybody will react the way I would have, and I know you are saying you may not be ready for any potential fall out (understandable)

 

I am just saying that you shouldn't feel like YOU have to help maintain an illusion for her to keep from hurting her. Her H's actions ARE hurting her, the truth might set her free. She may be a woman who would appreciate knowing the truth about her life.

 

I also want to say that I think this business of having ones motives be 100% pure before you do something that you believe is the right thing is unrealistic. People are complex and mixed motives are par for the course.

 

I think you are motivated in this case by compassion but you would not be human if you didn't feel anger too.

 

That was lovely and so very true in so many ways!

[jj33]

LOL. You are right. I did misinterpret you. Apologies.

 

I don't think he's being a BB though. He's just acting like he owns her and can use her feelings whenever he wants. He is very much in control of his emotions and wants to control hers too.

 

Bunny boilers aren't known for being in control of their emotions.

 

There has to be a name for what he is doing beyond calling him a sociopath. I don't think that fits and it gets thrown around far too much.

 

Totally agree and the name we came up with on another thread was azzclown. Its the best we could do in the circumstances. Selfish selfish azzclowns as HH said.

 

Sorry for the t/j HH.

[BurriedAlive]

I absolutely think you should call and tell her. This very same thing has happened to me (I will post an update) yesterday. MM came back in my life begging me to be his OW when he was trying to reconcile with W. He wouldn't leave me alone so yesterday I sent him a text (knowing that W gets copies of all his texts) telling him never to call me, email me or come over to my house ever again. She started texting me begging to know the truth. So I told her. She called me last night and we had a nice long chat. He has been brutally lying to me and her. It was awful.

 

Anyway, I feel like I did the right thing. She deserved to know the truth. What she does with it is up to her.

[Hazyhead]

HH

 

I get what you are saying about not wanting to hurt her further. You don't want her to be crushed at the knowledge that he hasn't changed and is still looking to cheat. You feel compassion for her and this is a good thing.

 

In his begging messages yesterday his words were 'it would completely destroy her'. How could I do that to someone?

 

From the standpoint of a FBS I can tell you that after dday and when we got to the "thinking about staying married phase of things" my hopes were for an authentic reconciliation. Real remorse. A real change in my H, a real rebirth of our marriage. Nothing less would have satisfied me. I didn't want and would never have accepted the fake appearance of a restored marriage. My husband and I have been happily reconciled for a while now but I can tell you that if his feelings for me and our marriage were not sincere, if he was not at least as dedicated to restoring us as I was I would have wanted to know. I would have welcomed a call/email/ letter/ smoke signal from the FOW letting me know the truth.

 

Do you think it possible for him to genuinely feel this now, having been scared enough, less than a week after telling me he loves me and wants to be with me?

 

I know that not all BS are alike and not everybody will react the way I would have, and I know you are saying you may not be ready for any potential fall out (understandable)

 

I am just saying that you shouldn't feel like YOU have to help maintain an illusion for her to keep from hurting her. Her H's actions ARE hurting her, the truth might set her free. She may be a woman who would appreciate knowing the truth about her life.

 

I also want to say that I think this business of having ones motives be 100% pure before you do something that you believe is the right thing is unrealistic. People are complex and mixed motives are par for the course.

 

I think you are motivated in this case by compassion but you would not be human if you didn't feel anger too.

 

Thank you so much, Phoenix. When you have talked about your husband in the past, he has always come across as genuinely remorseful, and put you above himself. xMM hasn't done this and although he's said all the right things to her, at some point, last week when he was messaging me, he told me that he was just paying lip service - saying them because he 'was supposed to'.

 

The bolded above are my worries. I don't want to wreck things for them if they have a genuine chance at reconciliation. he will never tell her the truth, he's told me that, I just don't know how he can reconcile honestly with such a huge, and recent, secret. He seems impossibly self-absorbed and what I can't figure out is if his words and warnings of what will happen are just the pleas of a desperate man.

 

I am scared.

[Hazyhead]

Totally agree and the name we came up with on another thread was azzclown. Its the best we could do in the circumstances. Selfish selfish azzclowns as HH said.

 

Sorry for the t/j HH.

 

It's a good t/j

[Hazyhead]

I absolutely think you should call and tell her. This very same thing has happened to me (I will post an update) yesterday. MM came back in my life begging me to be his OW when he was trying to reconcile with W. He wouldn't leave me alone so yesterday I sent him a text (knowing that W gets copies of all his texts) telling him never to call me, email me or come over to my house ever again. She started texting me begging to know the truth. So I told her. She called me last night and we had a nice long chat. He has been brutally lying to me and her. It was awful.

 

Anyway, I feel like I did the right thing. She deserved to know the truth. What she does with it is up to her.

 

That's it - I think it would be awful. I like that she had the opportunity to come to you, though. That's how I might go about it.

[Hazyhead]

Last night he messaged me more and his warnings about what would happen to her worked - I told him okay, and that I didn't want to cause more hurt. So, this morning I feel awful that I can't now release myself from this. And her.

 

I thought about sending her a letter telling her sorry and that he's been in touch with me. I thought I'd leave it there and give her my number if she wants to call for unanswered questions she might have. But now... I have to keep my mouth shut.

[Silly_Girl]

Last night he messaged me more and his warnings about what would happen to her worked - I told him okay, and that I didn't want to cause more hurt. So, this morning I feel awful that I can't now release myself from this. And her.

 

I thought about sending her a letter telling her sorry and that he's been in touch with me. I thought I'd leave it there and give her my number if she wants to call for unanswered questions she might have. But now... I have to keep my mouth shut.

 

Brilliant compromise Hazy. Let her decide if she wants contact, and she can decide for herself what, if anything, she wants to ask you... she can gauge what she's ready to hear. And you've tried. Which is as much as you CAN do.

[Fieldsofgold]

Last night he messaged me more and his warnings about what would happen to her worked - I told him okay, and that I didn't want to cause more hurt. So, this morning I feel awful that I can't now release myself from this. And her.

 

I thought about sending her a letter telling her sorry and that he's been in touch with me. I thought I'd leave it there and give her my number if she wants to call for unanswered questions she might have. But now... I have to keep my mouth shut.

 

IMHO, this azzclown is bullying you. You better not tell because YOU will be responsible for his wife and baby being hurt - not just hurt, but devastated! Destroyed! And all because of YOUR actions/choices! Bullying you to make you feel responsible. That's just crazy manipulative behavior on his part.

 

In the first place, I think it is highly likey that he is totally lying about his wife's devastation. It is entirely possible, and even probable, IMHO, that the damage and destruction he is trying to prevent is not to his wife and baby, but to his own sorry azz! I think it is likely that he knows if he gets caught again, it will be very bad for HIM. He is only trying to protect HIMSELF. If he were concerned about the wife/baby, he would not be conducting himself in ways that would hurt her/them! (So far he has not demonstrated any concern for either you or her.)

 

I'm sure his ONLY concern is what it will cost HIM if he gets caught betraying her again. He is trying to play on your kind heart and bully you into thinking you better not tell because YOU will hurt her, YOU will be responsible! The nerve of him! Right now, I have no doubt YOU are more concerned about his wife being hurt than he is!!! He's making everyone responsible for the destruction going on around him, except the one person who is responsible - HIMSELF! Just crazy thinking!

 

This guy is a MASTER manipulator; manipulating both of you!

 

The only thing that will stop his manipulation is for you to take the high road, and tell her the truth. Don't bother to warn him ahead of time, or he will go into major manipulation mode with her, against you. (And, again, he won't be concerned about hurting either of you, as long as he comes out ok.)

 

A simple letter, text or phone call to her, telling her that you are sorry to have to inform her that he is contacting you again, against your wishes, that you think it only fair for her to know (it IS only fair for her to know), that you wish her well, and that if she wants or needs further information or proof, she can contact you.

 

You really owe it to yourself and her to stop this manipulator. Good luck.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[Hazyhead]

Brilliant compromise Hazy. Let her decide if she wants contact, and she can decide for herself what, if anything, she wants to ask you... she can gauge what she's ready to hear. And you've tried. Which is as much as you CAN do.

 

Thank you, SG. This is what I'm thinking, I don't want to force her to face anything that she doesn't want to hear. Though that might well be everything!

[Hazyhead]

IMHO, this azzclown is bullying you. You better not tell because YOU will be responsible for his wife and baby being hurt - not just hurt, but devastated! Destroyed! And all because of YOUR actions/choices! Bullying you to make you feel responsible. That's just crazy manipulative behavior on his part.

 

In the first place, I think it is highly likey that he is totally lying about his wife's devastation. It is entirely possible, and even probable, IMHO, that the damage and destruction he is trying to prevent is not to his wife and baby, but to his own sorry azz! I think it is likely that he knows if he gets caught again, it will be very bad for HIM. He is only trying to protect HIMSELF. If he were concerned about the wife/baby, he would not be conducting himself in ways that would hurt her/them! (So far he has not demonstrated any concern for either you or her.)

 

I'm sure his ONLY concern is what it will cost HIM if he gets caught betraying her again. He is trying to play on your kind heart and bully you into thinking you better not tell because YOU will hurt her, YOU will be responsible! The nerve of him! Right now, I have no doubt YOU are more concerned about his wife being hurt than he is!!! He's making everyone responsible for the destruction going on around him, except the one person who is responsible - HIMSELF! Just crazy thinking!

 

This guy is a MASTER manipulator; manipulating both of you!

 

The only thing that will stop his manipulation is for you to take the high road, and tell her the truth. Don't bother to warn him ahead of time, or he will go into major manipulation mode with her, against you. (And, again, he won't be concerned about hurting either of you, as long as he comes out ok.)

 

A simple letter, text or phone call to her, telling her that you are sorry to have to inform her that he is contacting you again, against your wishes, that you think it only fair for her to know (it IS only fair for her to know), that you wish her well, and that if she wants or needs further information or proof, she can contact you.

 

You really owe it to yourself and her to stop this manipulator. Good luck.

 

You know, when I started this thread I expected a mixed response, as usually happens with this issue, but I'm overwhelmed with the amount of support and encouragement I've received. Your post was eye-opening Fields, thank you. He was bullying me, telling me the worst that would happen, and at the same time flattering me into not doing it, 'I know you're a good person and won't want this', etc. And it worked on me yesterday. As it always does. God, I'm a sucker! His main concern is himself, as he stands to lose most of all, but this is something that has always been the case and should have been reason enough not to contact me again. He must have assumed I would never betray him, but, by leading me on again, and hurting me yet again, he has betrayed me because I told him six months ago never to do that - never to go there again.

 

He is used to getting his own way and things that bother him the most. Although it is going to be incredibly painful, I honestly believe now that his wife is better off without him. He absolutely cannot be trusted and I don't think he'll change. He MUST manipulate her in the same way he does me... I hadn't thought of that before either.

 

Thank you FoG.

[Hazyhead]

I wrote a letter this morning telling his wife that he is withholding the truth from her. I explained that I wanted nothing from him ever again and that, and that I think it important for her to be able to make her own choices, was my reason for contacting her. I left her my phone number, explaining that I knew he had thrown it away at the weekend after giving it to her on her request. I also told her that I didn't want to force anything on to her that she didn't want but if she had any questions, to call.

 

I'm pretty much cr@pping myself

[greengoddess]

You did the right thing. You know you did, Relax knowing you did it from a good place not one of revenge but one of caring for a woman and her baby.

 

Hold tight now. If she throws him out you can not give in to his charm. He may come to you if he finds himself alone and with no where to go.

[lilbunny]

I hope that she reads and takes note Hazy. What she does with this information is up to her now and you can let it go and move forward. Try not to worry about it any more, if she contacts you then you can deal with that then, she might not.

 

I think (as discussed elsewhere) that the barriers to the BS and OW/OM communicating and exposing lies are what the WS relies on. I hope that it is clear to the BS that you have no hidden agenda and she is able to believe what she is reading.

[BB07]

You did the right thing Hazy....and I'm proud of you girl.

 

I know you are upset but consider this as another nail that he has hammered in and the more nails the better for you.

 

Hugs Hazy........you are strong and smart and you are wonderful!

[Hazyhead]

You did the right thing. You know you did, Relax knowing you did it from a good place not one of revenge but one of caring for a woman and her baby.

 

Hold tight now. If she throws him out you can not give in to his charm. He may come to you if he finds himself alone and with no where to go.

 

I hope so. If she doesn't see that and sees malice then, like SG said, at least I tried. I then back off and leave them to it and hopefully never be involved again. She kicked him out six months ago at the first dday so he has a place to go. I honestly think that she's desperate for him to be at home with her now, though.

 

I hope that she reads and takes note Hazy. What she does with this information is up to her now and you can let it go and move forward. Try not to worry about it any more, if she contacts you then you can deal with that then, she might not.

 

I think (as discussed elsewhere) that the barriers to the BS and OW/OM communicating and exposing lies are what the WS relies on. I hope that it is clear to the BS that you have no hidden agenda and she is able to believe what she is reading.

 

You're right. I hope this too. And then I don't at the same time because I don't particularly relish a conversation that could happen. The barriers are there for a reason, most of the time, unfortunately. In their situation this is the case - six months ago I let him minimise and pin most of the blame on me because, after speaking to her, I could tell that this was all she was willing to see. And, yes, he relies on this. Fosters it, even.

 

You did the right thing Hazy....and I'm proud of you girl.

 

I know you are upset but consider this as another nail that he has hammered in and the more nails the better for you.

 

Hugs Hazy........you are strong and smart and you are wonderful!

 

Agree about the nails. I need as many as possible! Thanks BB - you're very sweet. Hope you're good.

[Fieldsofgold]

I wrote a letter this morning telling his wife that he is withholding the truth from her. I explained that I wanted nothing from him ever again and that, and that I think it important for her to be able to make her own choices, was my reason for contacting her. I left her my phone number, explaining that I knew he had thrown it away at the weekend after giving it to her on her request. I also told her that I didn't want to force anything on to her that she didn't want but if she had any questions, to call.

 

I'm pretty much cr@pping myself

 

Wow! Wow! Girl, you have guts, backbone, and just plain courage! I'm very proud of you! You did the right thing. Now what she does with it is none of your concern. Your conscience is clear.

 

Now go find yourself a wonderful relationship with a man who will fully appreciate your many fine qualities, and love you for the wonderful woman you are!!!

 

Yay, HH! Yay, HH! Yay, HH!

[PhoenixRise]

HazyHead

 

 

I Think you did the right thing. MM WAS bullying you and trying desperately to make you responsible for the pain he is causing. Yes, his wife will be hurt, his actions could devastate her. But they are HIS actions. HIS responsibility. She deserves the opportunity to make decisions about her life based on the truth.

 

AND just as important, you have operated from a place of personal integrity. You told MM if he continued to contact you you would tell his wife. You honored your word to yourself and to him. If you had backed down you would have reinforced to MM his belief that he could play around in your life whenever he wanted to without consequence. He would believe that no matter what you say, he will always be able to manipulate what you do.

 

I think you did a good thing for the BW. I also think you took a really big step forward for yourself.