He didn't pay

[Untouchable_Fire]

OK, I know there are threads about this but:

Against my better judgement I re-enabled my OKC account and had lunch with someone from there just today. The bill came, and he split it by what we had. I mean he actually added up what I had and what he had and we payed separetly. He never offered to pay

I thought that this is a clear sign of no interest, but he texted me later that he wants to see me again.

But, his stinginess REALLY bothers me. I am pretty generous with money.

LAUNCH?

 

If you were truly generous with your money this would not bother you. This would be a minor blip on your overall evaluation of the date. Instead this is you singular focus.

 

Not only that, but he went over every bill item and was adding them up (including cents) and then gave me my total

 

This could just as easily show he is fair, accurate, and brave.

[welikeincrowds]

I'm saying WOMEN should not want the current male-female dynamic, as in the bigger picture I think it is shooting the feminist movement in the foot.

 

Well, I can pretty much agree. Good work bro, let's call it a night!

 

 

Paying is expected, therefore provides no clear benefit.

 

This sentence does a good job of highlighting where I feel your argument starts to fall apart.

 

Because yes, it's true, if you go back to the etymology, it is indirectly about "protecting a woman." But this is also why I said that the etymology is less relevant to 2010 -- because what you are not doing is "protecting" a woman from having to pay a bill, or from the endless pain and suffering caused by having to swing a door open.

 

You would do better to focus on the core of the definition: that it's about upholding an ideal, about exercising your status as a nobleman by being willful and charitable. And here, now, 2010, it's about going a little out of your way, to put in the effort, to show that you care. The benefit is that you get an opportunity to flatter a woman with your chivalrous act.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Being gentlemanly is not just opening doors or being courteous. It's a mentality of men who care for and do not want to hurt women. It doesn't men that men look down on women or see them as pets, but rather that they acknowledge there is a difference (not inequality as in one gender is better than the other!) but that they care to show kindness to women and help them, no matter the woman's age, appearance, or character.

 

Elaina! This is awesome!

[TaurusTerp]

Being gentlemanly is not just opening doors or being courteous. It's a mentality of men who care for and do not want to hurt women. It doesn't men that men look down on women or see them as pets, but rather that they acknowledge there is a difference (not inequality as in one gender is better than the other!) but that they care to show kindness to women and help them, no matter the woman's age, appearance, or character.

 

It seems like you adhere to traditional gender roles - men bring home the money, women stay at home and birth children.

 

To play devils advocate, if there is a difference between the genders and men are better suited to some things and women better suited to others, then doesn't it follow that they should stick to their roles? Women should not be trying to enter the corporate system and demanding equal pay - after all, they are not going to be as good at those jobs.

 

What I'm saying is that if you expect traditional roles that your father and grandfather had, how can you expect treatment of women in other areas to change?

[elaina]

Elaina! This is awesome!

 

Thanks Untouchable Fire

 

Also, ladies, by the way, are ladies by showing kindness, graciousness, tact, and consideration to people, both to men and to women.

[elaina]

It seems like you adhere to traditional gender roles - men bring home the money, women stay at home and birth children.

 

Actually, most of the women in my family work outside the home too. I do too, and when I get married, I don't expect that to change, even though I do want my work hours to change cause yes, I do hope to have children someday and take care of them.

To play devils advocate, if there is a difference between the genders

 

True. A man cannot bear children, no matter how hard he tries lol. Can you just see it? A man giving birth lol!!! His body is not able to, nor able to provide nourishment after the baby is born. (you know what I'm talking about.?)

 

and men are better suited to some things and women better suited to others,

 

Ok... though I do think that that's gearing a bit to dangerous ground, because women can do many jobs that men can do, and do them very well.

 

then doesn't it follow that they should stick to their roles? Women should not be trying to enter the corporate system and demanding equal pay - after all, they are not going to be as good at those jobs.

 

I disagree. Not all women are the same. There are women who are amazing in the corporate system, and there are women who do not want to be mothers, and there are women who are amazing mothers who are in the corporate system.

 

What I'm saying is that if you expect traditional roles that your father and grandfather had, how can you expect treatment of women in other areas to change?

 

I have to admit, that is a fair point, but my Mamaw (grandmother) did work outside the home. Again, most of my female family members have worked outside the home too. They also work inside the home, taking care of the meals and cleaning the house and taking care of children. Women actually do an awful lot. I am not saying men don't. Men also should help in the house too; that really helps when both men and women help each other, and there are men who are amazing chefs and amazing at making a house immaculate and amazing working with kids too.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Well, I can pretty much agree. Good work bro, let's call it a night!

This sentence does a good job of highlighting where I feel your argument starts to fall apart.

Because yes, it's true, if you go back to the etymology, it is indirectly about "protecting a woman." But this is also why I said that the etymology is less relevant to 2010 -- because what you are not doing is "protecting" a woman from having to pay a bill, or from the endless pain and suffering caused by having to swing a door open.

You would do better to focus on the core of the definition: that it's about upholding an ideal, about exercising your status as a nobleman by being willful and charitable. And here, now, 2010, it's about going a little out of your way, to put in the effort, to show that you care. The benefit is that you get an opportunity to flatter a woman with your chivalrous act.

 

Still, we are talking about a custom developed in a time when the dating process was vastly different. The context for these things no longer exists.

 

It simply is not meaningful at this stage because it's seen as a cultural requirement. It is the equivalent of paying a bribe to do business.

 

Because the vast majority of the male population pays for dates and/or opens doors, it provides no particular benefit. In fact the ideal which you are attempting to uphold really no longer exists... it's just become a social moray.

[TaurusTerp]

Actually, most of the women in my family work outside the home too. I do too, and when I get married, I don't expect that to change, even though I do want my work hours to change cause yes, I do hope to have children someday and take care of them.

 

 

True. A man cannot bear children, no matter how hard he tries lol. Can you just see it? A man giving birth lol!!! His body is not able to, nor able to provide nourishment after the baby is born. (you know what I'm talking about.?)

 

 

 

Ok... though I do think that that's gearing a bit to dangerous ground, because women can do many jobs that men can do, and do them very well.

 

 

 

I disagree. Not all women are the same. There are women who are amazing in the corporate system, and there are women who do not want to be mothers, and there are women who are amazing mothers who are in the corporate system.

 

 

 

I have to admit, that is a fair point, but my Mamaw (grandmother) did work outside the home. Again, most of my female family members have worked outside the home too. They also work inside the home, taking care of the meals and cleaning the house and taking care of children. Women actually do an awful lot. I am not saying men don't. Men also should help in the house too; that really helps when both men and women help each other, and there are men who are amazing chefs and amazing at making a house immaculate and amazing working with kids too.

 

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. There are women that are more aggressive than men, better suited to cutthroat corporate life, and there are men who make better childminders than most women.

 

But you can't have it all. It's simply not possible to have a full time career, education, as well as take care of the kids and cook every day. If someone tries it, I guarantee something is being neglected. So who does what?

[elaina]

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. There are women that are more aggressive than men, better suited to cutthroat corporate life, and there are men who make better childminders than most women.

True, and men who are good taking care of kids are not inferior to men who aren't. Actually, many women who like kids absolutely love the fact that some men are good with kids, because women who want to get married and have kids hope to have a husband who...

 

1. wants kids too

2. will be a good provider and protect for them

3. won't hurt them in any way

 

Men who are in the corporate world and are not gifted in taking care of kids can fill in the above too depending on their character, but it does really help and is such a cool thing when men take the time to spend good, quality time with their kids!!!

 

But you can't have it all. It's simply not possible to have a full time career, education, as well as take care of the kids and cook every day. If someone tries it, I guarantee something is being neglected.

It is a difficult balance, yeah.

 

that it's about upholding an ideal, about exercising your status as a nobleman by being willful and charitable. And here, now, 2010, it's about going a little out of your way, to put in the effort, to show that you care. The benefit is that you get an opportunity to flatter a woman with your chivalrous act.

 

Welikeincrowds, Totally agree!!! It's like admiring a man's muscles... his kindness muscles. Sorry, I can be a bit corny sometimes.

[Eclypse]

This post probably won't change anyone's opinion but when me and my gf went out on our first date we had dinner. And we ended up going halfsies. Actually it was probably she paid more since i ended up finishing her meal (she's very tiny). I had planned to pay for the meal but a misunderstanding happened we went halfsies. I thought she might get pissed at me but hey it's 6 months later and we're madly in love. So I dunno, I guess it depends on the people.

 

Why do a lot of women feel entitled to getting this sort of stuff paid for them. A man is not a walking cash machine. Especially if you meet on an online dating site. Your goal is to go on dates so why should only one person pay. For all we know you could just be cruising around getting guys to pay for your dinners.

[Art_Critic]

LAUNCH?....Yes...

[donnamaybe]

I'm not wrong. It's common courtesy. Does that mean a woman should let the door slam in the guy's face?

Whoever gets to the damn door first opens it, fer gawd's sake.

 

I've had people literally SEE me behind them just a few steps while walking through the skywalks here and let the door go and it comes swinging back at me at JUST the wrong time. That is so rude! I don't care if you're a man or woman - just give a damn about others. I NEVER let a door slam on someone like that. I hold it until they are in the opening so they can hold it themselves as they pass through, or whatever, or if there's someone with a cane or wheelchair or lots of items on a hand truck or with a stroller (you get the point), I hold it until they are completely through.

 

WTF happened to common courtesy for EVERYONE. Why do only WOMEN get the benefit of common courtesy? Sorry. I'm not buyin' that, and this from a woman who doesn't accept less than good treatment.

 

Also, I find it funny that the OP says she's generous with money, and in nearly the same breath gets all bent because this guy expects her to pay her share. There shouldn't be an expectation that a guy should ALWAYS pay, especially from online dating. Hell, you don't even KNOW these people from these websites! He was probably just wanting to find out if you were "dating for dinner" or not. Some people are like that. It COULD be that once he finds out you aren't some kind of gold digger just looking for free meals and free clothes and free whatever else, he may become VERY generous with you and give more than you've ever known a guy to give.

 

I understand how his nitpicking every penny probably came across, though, and if I were actually there it would be easier to gauge by observing his behavior myself.

[donnamaybe]

My SO cooked dinner for us today. Holy f-ck, I better run out and cheat on him!

He actually COOKED for you? Since we're all about traditional roles on this thread, I thought the wimmin folk did the cookin'.

[Art_Critic]

Not paying for the date because dutch was in the cards is quite different than a person being stingy.

 

How he reacted with breaking it down to the cents should be a predictor of future behavior. IMO... as well as the fact that he never offered..

 

I have like 6.00 in change sitting in my ashtray in the car.. most people do..

Counting cents isn't a normal thing to do on a date..

 

Launching in this case isn't about the OP expecting him to pay.. but more along the lines on that she just learned how stingy he is with pennies..

If he had just thrown down half plus some extra to cover any cents and not split the bill exactly down the middle he wouldn't have looked as bad...

 

If he acts cheap on a first date he isn't going to get more generous as the dating process goes on.

[Art_Critic]

There are cheap people out there.. there are also people out there who are cheap and really don't care how other people perceive them..

 

I've never been one of those people..

I've always been generous to a fault, I tip extremely well 25%-50% no matter the service, and I do like to avoid the cheap public look..

I would never let myself look cheap in public, I always pick up the tabs on business meals when I'm the customer and should be catered to.

 

In dating.. the same thing.. I'm supposed to be looking good.. putting my best foot forward and be damned if I would let 25.00 stop that from happening.

[collegeguy_24]

Whoever gets to the damn door first opens it, fer gawd's sake.

 

I've had people literally SEE me behind them just a few steps while walking through the skywalks here and let the door go and it comes swinging back at me at JUST the wrong time. That is so rude! I don't care if you're a man or woman - just give a damn about others. I NEVER let a door slam on someone like that. I hold it until they are in the opening so they can hold it themselves as they pass through, or whatever, or if there's someone with a cane or wheelchair or lots of items on a hand truck or with a stroller (you get the point), I hold it until they are completely through.

 

WTF happened to common courtesy for EVERYONE. Why do only WOMEN get the benefit of common courtesy? Sorry. I'm not buyin' that, and this from a woman who doesn't accept less than good treatment.

 

Also, I find it funny that the OP says she's generous with money, and in nearly the same breath gets all bent because this guy expects her to pay her share. There shouldn't be an expectation that a guy should ALWAYS pay, especially from online dating. Hell, you don't even KNOW these people from these websites! He was probably just wanting to find out if you were "dating for dinner" or not. Some people are like that. It COULD be that once he finds out you aren't some kind of gold digger just looking for free meals and free clothes and free whatever else, he may become VERY generous with you and give more than you've ever known a guy to give.

 

I understand how his nitpicking every penny probably came across, though, and if I were actually there it would be easier to gauge by observing his behavior myself.

 

Finally! Someone who says what needs to be said!

 

Personally, I always pay, its who I am, but reading some of the posts on here, I can see where some guys would be frustrated. Hell knows I am frustrated with being a gentleman and getting screwed!

 

Tomorrow is my last date for a while, if she isn't interested, I'm giving up. I will pay, if we go to dinner, that hasn't be decided yet, I will hold the door open for her, I will smile, I will be polite. Not because its expected, but because its who I am.

 

Like people have said above, its called Chivalry, it was pounded into my head as a kid ( sometimes literally with a book), and its what I do. If some guys don't do that, its fine, to each their own. But personally, with the lack of success I have had in the dating department, it makes me wonder if being chivalrous is even needed anymore if all that happens is me getting screwed.

 

I'm not sure if its a woman in todays society thing, to expect a man to pay only to walk away with no intention of seeing him again, or friend zoning him, or if I just have that much bad karma.

[yessy21]

ok. maybe he was just trying to see if u were one of those girls who cared. my really good guy friend tells me all the time that he waits to see if the girl offers to at least pay for herself. just to see if shes being a golddigger or if she likes him for him. i usually take out my wallet to initiate my half or if i invite the payment. usually i get the "put it away" look. even when im with my best girlfriends.

[BruceLeroy]

Said it before and I'll say it again. I've never ran into trouble going dutch. Paying the bill is for special occasions. And I've seen no connection between going dutch and not getting a second date result for me.

Maybe its just you older gen that pitches a fit over this?

[climbergirl]

It's not just paying for dinner. It's opening doors and they bring in love notes their men write and laught at then. Plus one of them laughed at how pathetic her husband looked after he cooked her dinner. This is what being a considerate gentlemen gets a man these days.

 

 

Just because a couple of women do this does not justify generalizations. My bf writes me 'love notes' every morning and I carry them with me during the day. I love him more for it.

 

However, I do think that whoever initiated the first date should pay regardless of gender. Consideration goes both ways---be it paying for the date or opening doors.

 

As for subsequent dates, take turns paying or go dutch. But tallying up who ate what is just ridiculous.

[donnamaybe]

Maybe its just you older gen that pitches a fit over this?

Nope, that's not it. I'm of that generation of which you speak.

[donnamaybe]

Just because a couple of women do this does not justify generalizations. My bf writes me 'love notes' every morning and I carry them with me during the day. I love him more for it.

 

However, I do think that whoever initiated the first date should pay regardless of gender. Consideration goes both ways---be it paying for the date or opening doors.

 

As for subsequent dates, take turns paying or go dutch. But tallying up who ate what is just ridiculous.

Don't let his ridiculous analogies get to you. He obviously knows some really awful people ONLY for some reason.

[Jannah]

He grabs the check immediately.

 

She does the "fake reach".

 

He waves her off and insists on paying.

 

She thanks him for his generosity.

 

End of scene.

 

[climbergirl]

I didn't insult women who liked you. I said that the right woman for you is a doormat, based on the fact that only doormats would enjoy paying on the first date. Very different.

 

 

If I initiated the date I would insist on paying. And I am far from a doormat.

[Chocolat]

Said it before and I'll say it again. I've never ran into trouble going dutch. Paying the bill is for special occasions. And I've seen no connection between going dutch and not getting a second date result for me.

Maybe its just you older gen that pitches a fit over this?

 

Nope. As a member of the "older generation," ( ) I would definitely have offered to split the cost of the meal.

 

That said, it would bother me if the man felt he had to itemize the bill down to the last cent. That is the part of this guy's behavior that would probably make me decline a second date.

[climbergirl]

Whoever gets to the damn door first opens it, fer gawd's sake.

 

I've had people literally SEE me behind them just a few steps while walking through the skywalks here and let the door go and it comes swinging back at me at JUST the wrong time. That is so rude! I don't care if you're a man or woman - just give a damn about others. I NEVER let a door slam on someone like that. I hold it until they are in the opening so they can hold it themselves as they pass through, or whatever, or if there's someone with a cane or wheelchair or lots of items on a hand truck or with a stroller (you get the point), I hold it until they are completely through.

 

WTF happened to common courtesy for EVERYONE. Why do only WOMEN get the benefit of common courtesy? Sorry. I'm not buyin' that, and this from a woman who doesn't accept less than good treatment.

 

Also, I find it funny that the OP says she's generous with money, and in nearly the same breath gets all bent because this guy expects her to pay her share. There shouldn't be an expectation that a guy should ALWAYS pay, especially from online dating. Hell, you don't even KNOW these people from these websites! He was probably just wanting to find out if you were "dating for dinner" or not. Some people are like that. It COULD be that once he finds out you aren't some kind of gold digger just looking for free meals and free clothes and free whatever else, he may become VERY generous with you and give more than you've ever known a guy to give.

 

I understand how his nitpicking every penny probably came across, though, and if I were actually there it would be easier to gauge by observing his behavior myself.

 

Props to this.