He didn't pay

[Mad Max]

Lighten up, man, I was just kidding!

 

 

I wasn't referring to you.

[donnamaybe]

I wasn't referring to you.

I know. I was just making light of that fact that now that you've thrown down the gauntlet (to the "he should ALWAYS pay" crowd), they'd be comin' at me (one of the women who DARED agree with the "he shouldn't always have to pay" crowd).

 

This has always been a highly charged topic. I guess there are some guys who need the feeling that they are "taking care" of a woman, and there are women who need that feeling of being "taken care of" by a man. I just don't think pulling out a billfold constitutes someone taking care of me, particularly in this day and age of most women having their own jobs rather than being homemakers like in the old days.

[kdark]

1. You repeat in your last sentence exactly what you said before, ignoring my question as to -how- one goes about this.

 

I just told you a few ways to get to know someone before going out on a date with them. I'm not going to repeat them.

 

2. The point of dating someone is to get to know them. One may know a few things about someone before dating, or think one does, but it takes lots of time and dates to even begin to truly know someone. In a world where mores have changed drastically, and women earn money, why should the man shoulder all the "getting to know you" expense? Why a "gentleman tax?"

 

I agree that it takes a while to truly get to know someone. But why are you actively taking part in the perpetuation of said "gentleman's tax" by paying for women on dates if you dislike doing it so much?

 

3. My mother has recommended me dating some of the worst women imaginable because "she seems so nice." Personal introductions no longer carry as much weight as they once did. My girlfriend's friend she sets me up with is just as likely to be giving Julio those nightly BJs. I don't mind that, I may be getting a BJ from someone else that very night myself, but why... should... I... pay?

 

I disagree. Personal introductions to me still carry much weight. Your mom may not introduce you to the greatest women in the world, but what about friends? Co-workers? You're telling me you can't find anyone who will be able to introduce you to trustworthy people?

 

4. Going dutch is the exact controversy in this thread. Do so on early dates, and you will be labelled "cheap," "ungentlemanly," etc. It's plain social blackmail, and archaic to boot.

 

I haven't read all of this particular threadnought, but I have read three or four other threadnoughts on the topic of who pays for dates. Every conclusion I have come to is that people will be who they are. You will have men who refuse to let women pay for dates, and women who will eat that up. And their will be men who go dutch, and women who will eat that up as well. The last three women I dated were all the type who had no problem with going dutch, one of which was a serious relationship. And these were all first dates that I am referring to.

 

As I mentioned earlier, this may be a generational thing since I am probably younger than you, and it may also be because I refuse to go on dates with "old fashioned" women, and actively look for women who have a more modern, liberal outlook on life and relationships. If you hate the "gentleman's tax" so much, you don't have to pay it. I am doing fine not paying it. I couldn't care less about being labeled as cheap or ungentlemanly, because I know deep down that I am neither of those things.

[donnamaybe]

I just told you a few ways to get to know someone before going out on a date with them. I'm not going to repeat them..

In THIS thread we are talking about a first date generated from an online dating site. How do you get to know someone THAT well from an online dating site prior to a first date? Some people don't even put up their own PICTURE fer cryin' in the rain!

[sanskrit]

I post in these "who pays" threads out of self-condemnation mostly, as I have always paid for dates, and wonder whether it really is a custom with any underlying merit today, or just another scam on men. If it's a scam, I'm a hypocrite, and should suck it up and stop paying for early dates.

 

With other traditions, opening the car door for example, there are pragmatic reasons. Women wear heels, dresses, carry purses, all making entry into a car a bit more troublesome, especially with a less familiar car, uneven surfaces, especially if there is any weather, and most especially at night. Of course she is used to entering a car on her own, most likely her car, but it is a simple matter to help her. And no, I don't stop it after the honeymoon phase. It's deeply ingrained in my subculture.

 

Same with opening doors, pulling out chairs. Women in social attire are usually more encumbered. They don't -need- help, but it is easy to do.

 

I just don't see the same pragmatic rationale behind the "he pays" tradition, and the middle ground, "who asks pays" is disingenuous because men do almost all the asking out on early dates.

[kdark]

In THIS thread we are talking about a first date generated from an online dating site. How do you get to know someone THAT well from an online dating site prior to a first date? Some people don't even put up their own PICTURE fer cryin' in the rain!

 

Oh.

 

Well that is pretty much impossible. The only suggestion I have is to keep it to dates where money is not spent, or at least not very much of it. I always hear women say that some of the best dates that they have ever been on were dates that didn't cost a thing, and were more creative than the usual fancy restaurant and wine dates.

[donnamaybe]

Oh.

 

Well that is pretty much impossible. The only suggestion I have is to keep it to dates where money is not spent, or at least not very much of it. I always hear women say that some of the best dates that they have ever been on were dates that didn't cost a thing, and were more creative than the usual fancy restaurant and wine dates.

And the other upside of that is it shows someone the creative side of the other person!

[kdark]

I just don't see the same pragmatic rationale behind the "he pays" tradition, and the middle ground, "who asks pays" is disingenuous because men do almost all the asking out on early dates.

 

I didn't either. That's why I don't do it anymore. And I agree that since most men do the initiating, the "middle ground" still works out heavily in the woman's favor.

 

My old stand-by is to pay for dinner, and then "insist" (in a very joking and friendly manner) that she pays for drinks or dessert or [insert fun activity] afterwards WHEN (not if), we go to a bar or for ice cream because the date went so well that we want to keep spending time together. But if she offers to pay, I'll gladly take her up on the offer.

 

If she refuses to pay, like our old friend USMChokie would say... LAUNCH!

 

If she refuses to go, then the date probably didn't go so well, so I will be glad that I took her to a restaurant that wasn't TOO expensive and doesn't serve alcohol.

[kdark]

And the other upside of that is it shows someone the creative side of the other person!

 

Exactly. Mini golf is my personal favorite. And I know a lot of local restaurants that have cheap price tags, great atmosphere, and interesting histories. Granted these aren't free, but they are much cheaper and creative than the $$wine, $$dine, and hoping for 69ing that most guys do.

[donnamaybe]

I LOVE mini-golf!

[Stung]

In THIS thread we are talking about a first date generated from an online dating site. How do you get to know someone THAT well from an online dating site prior to a first date? Some people don't even put up their own PICTURE fer cryin' in the rain!

 

 

Well, I know we are the exception and not the rule, but because we lived far apart and met online, my husband and I got to know each other pretty well by IMing/emailing/Skyping for six months before we ever met in person for our first date. We are both verbose people good with the written word, which obviously helped our communication.

 

 

Oh.

 

Well that is pretty much impossible. The only suggestion I have is to keep it to dates where money is not spent, or at least not very much of it. I always hear women say that some of the best dates that they have ever been on were dates that didn't cost a thing, and were more creative than the usual fancy restaurant and wine dates.

 

 

I strongly agree that the best dates are creative, and not necessarily expensive. I prefer someone's spending forethought and energy on a date over just money.

 

Some of my favorite dates have been to free concerts, drives in the country and stargazing with thermoses of something hot to drink, art galleries, museums, walks/picnics in the botanical gardens or through the woods, tidepooling at the beach, free black and white movies on projectors in the park, the shooting range--this would be gross and weird to most people, but my favorite first date was actually to the morgue. What can I say, I'm a biology geek.

[elaina]

I didn't either. That's why I don't do it anymore. And I agree that since most men do the initiating, the "middle ground" still works out heavily in the woman's favor.

 

My old stand-by is to pay for dinner, and then "insist" (in a very joking and friendly manner) that she pays for drinks or dessert or [insert fun activity] afterwards WHEN (not if), we go to a bar or for ice cream because the date went so well that we want to keep spending time together. But if she offers to pay, I'll gladly take her up on the offer.

 

If she refuses to pay, like our old friend USMChokie would say... LAUNCH!

 

If she refuses to go, then the date probably didn't go so well, so I will be glad that I took her to a restaurant that wasn't TOO expensive and doesn't serve alcohol.

 

Why couldn't a man, if he wants to "go dutch", just say it while inviting her out? Like say, "Hey want to go dutch and get lunch?" That's not so hard.

 

My friends (both male and female together in a group) go out to eat and out to places (the fair, amusement parks, museums, canoeing, hiking) and we pay for ourselves, except sometimes if a friend can't afford something, we help out, and those who are a couple, the guy tends to pay.)

 

Also, about this launching business, whatever happened to being friends first and getting to know a person well enough to know if you want to date them or not?

[elaina]

Well, I know we are the exception and not the rule, but because we lived far apart and met online, my husband and I got to know each other pretty well by IMing/emailing/Skyping for six months before we ever met in person for our first date. We are both verbose people good with the written word, which obviously helped our communication.

 

Stung, I love reading your posts and I learn something good every time I do, which hopefully I'll put into practice!

 

That's awesome that ya'll got to know each other better before dating. I think that's one thing that's missing in the "equation of love" for some people, which leads to fruitless searches for Mr/Miss Perfect. People don't take the time to get to know each other.

 

Yeah, communication is so important. Sometimes though I'm not sure what is best to communicate when and how.

 

I strongly agree that the best dates are creative, and not necessarily expensive. I prefer someone's spending forethought and energy on a date over just money.

Totally agreed!!!

 

Some of my favorite dates have been to free concerts, drives in the country and stargazing with thermoses of something hot to drink, art galleries, museums, walks/picnics in the botanical gardens or through the woods,

Oh mine too!!! Also, I like volunteering with my boyfriend, cause I like feeling like we're helping (or trying to help) people TOGETHER. Life is more than just movies and dinners!

 

tidepooling at the beach, free black and white movies on projectors in the park, the shooting range--this would be gross and weird to most people, but my favorite first date was actually to the morgue.

I've never tried those before. What did you do at the morque? just curious. I would be very silly and a tad freaked out if I was at one, so probably that wouldn't be the best for me.

 

What can I say, I'm a biology geek.

Cool!

[kdark]

Why couldn't a man, if he wants to "go dutch", just say it while inviting her out? Like say, "Hey want to go dutch and get lunch?" That's not so hard.

 

My friends (both male and female together in a group) go out to eat and out to places (the fair, amusement parks, museums, canoeing, hiking) and we pay for ourselves, except sometimes if a friend can't afford something, we help out, and those who are a couple, the guy tends to pay.)

 

Also, about this launching business, whatever happened to being friends first and getting to know a person well enough to know if you want to date them or not?

 

Well, the whole going dutch phrase has a pretty negative connotation to it. But I just end up doing it anyway in a roundabout way that seems more organic than deciding on it from the get go.

 

And if you are meeting a member of the opposite sex, just the two of you, for the first time, and you are paying for both parties even though you are "just friends", then you are displaying doormat behavior, which no one likes. A first date between opposite sexes to me automatically implies romantic interest, especially if they met on a dating website.

 

Like you said in your example, the friends all paid for themselves unless one person was unable to. If you were meeting someone just as friends, then it would be implied that each person paid for themselves.

[a_woman]

Regardless of who initiated, it is just damn gentlemanly for the guy to pay for the first date...I mean, come on now...seriously...?

 

I know you mean well but when I read patronising, paternal stuff like this I'm glad I don't live in the States.

You can't complain that your women turn out to be princesses.

[carhill]

Christ, hasn't he paid yet? Here, let me have the bill....

 

 

 

[sweetjasmine]

Well, I know we are the exception and not the rule, but because we lived far apart and met online, my husband and I got to know each other pretty well by IMing/emailing/Skyping for six months before we ever met in person for our first date. We are both verbose people good with the written word, which obviously helped our communication.

 

Same here, we were friends for a year before we met in person, but we're even more of an exception because we really were just friends, and neither of us had dating or a relationship in mind until we met and clicked. By the time we met, I knew most of his life story.

 

It's much less awkward to go out to dinner with someone you already know, IMO. There's absolutely none of the "well what if s/he's just using me for a free meal?" bullsh-t. You both already know you enjoy each others' company.

[Art_Critic]

Christ, hasn't he paid yet? Here, let me have the bill....

 

 

 

 

oh he paid.. he just doesn't know it yet

[elaina]

Well, the whole going dutch phrase has a pretty negative connotation to it.

 

Why?

But I just end up doing it anyway in a roundabout way that seems more organic than deciding on it from the get go.

 

Oh. Well, I think it may be good for a man and woman who haven't met to talk a little bit about paying for dates (possibly in a roundabout way that's good) beforehand, so neither are unpleasantly surprised by the others' point of view, yeah?

 

And if you are meeting a member of the opposite sex, just the two of you, for the first time, and you are paying for both parties even though you are "just friends", then you are displaying doormat behavior, which no one likes. A first date between opposite sexes to me automatically implies romantic interest, especially if they met on a dating website.

 

I guess that's hard for me to understand because I have a huge issue meeting a person of the opposite sex romantically unless I have gotten to know them a bit better first. That's just how I am.

 

Like you said in your example, the friends all paid for themselves unless one person was unable to. If you were meeting someone just as friends, then it would be implied that each person paid for themselves.

 

Agreed Helping friends out is also not a bad thing. I've been helped out by my friends and I've helped them out too... it's give and take, being a friend. All giving or all taking isn't a good balance. So yeah, I get how people are saying for a romantic relationship, it's not a good balance for the man to always pay and the woman to always enjoy... that's a good point, but a man being gentlemanly is also important too, I think. However, women should be ladies too.

[carhill]

oh he paid.. he just doesn't know it yet

Breath analysis has determined that carhill is too inebriated to post. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

 

[kdark]

Why?

 

Because some American women feel entitled to free dates, so offering to go dutch may get her thinking you're cheap.

 

 

Oh. Well, I think it may be good for a man and woman who haven't met to talk a little bit about paying for dates (possibly in a roundabout way that's good) beforehand, so neither are unpleasantly surprised by the others' point of view, yeah?

 

 

 

I guess that's hard for me to understand because I have a huge issue meeting a person of the opposite sex romantically unless I have gotten to know them a bit better first. That's just how I am.

 

I agree that in a perfect world it would be wonderful to get to know your date as a friend before you go on a romantic date with them. But that's near impossible for internet dating, and some people are just too busy or too impatient.

 

 

Agreed Helping friends out is also not a bad thing. I've been helped out by my friends and I've helped them out too... it's give and take, being a friend. All giving or all taking isn't a good balance. So yeah, I get how people are saying for a romantic relationship, it's not a good balance for the man to always pay and the woman to always enjoy... that's a good point, but a man being gentlemanly is also important too, I think. However, women should be ladies too.

 

But being a gentleman can be shown in ways other than paying. For me being a gentleman is more about respect and courtesy than flashing the bills.

[VeveCakes]

Ok I'm late to the party but I have a few things to add. Firstly, maybe the guy just wanted to be friends after meeting th OP and that was his way of sort of showing there was no romantic interest?

 

 

Also, regarding Canadian girls. They are as bad if not WORSE than American girls. I have not met a single one who doesn't get pissed if the guy doesn't pay, and they do feel they are entitled. I HATE North American dating culture.

 

Finally, it could have been worse. I actually was asked out once, then my date told me he only brought $20 when the bill came, after ordering a bottle of wine etc. Totally classless.

[Mad Max]

Ok I'm late to the party but I have a few things to add. Firstly, maybe the guy just wanted to be friends after meeting th OP and that was his way of sort of showing there was no romantic interest?

 

 

Also, regarding Canadian girls. They are as bad if not WORSE than American girls. I have not met a single one who doesn't get pissed if the guy doesn't pay, and they do feel they are entitled. I HATE North American dating culture.

 

Finally, it could have been worse. I actually was asked out once, then my date told me he only brought $20 when the bill came, after ordering a bottle of wine etc. Totally classless.

 

 

I've lived in both and it's worse in the states. Take it from a Québécer.

[Stung]

Stung, I love reading your posts and I learn something good every time I do, which hopefully I'll put into practice!

 

That's awesome that ya'll got to know each other better before dating. I think that's one thing that's missing in the "equation of love" for some people, which leads to fruitless searches for Mr/Miss Perfect. People don't take the time to get to know each other.

 

Yeah, communication is so important. Sometimes though I'm not sure what is best to communicate when and how.

 

I've never tried those before. What did you do at the morque? just curious. I would be very silly and a tad freaked out if I was at one, so probably that wouldn't be the best for me.

 

Cool!

 

Aw Elaina, you're always such a sweetheart. Thanks.

 

The morgue date worked for me because I have a biology geek's cast-iron stomach and an overdeveloped sense of literally morbid curiosity, but it definitely wouldn't work for most people. The guy I went out with worked for the sheriff's dept. and the coroner's dept. and he took me on a run to pick up a body after the scene had been processed and take it back to the morgue, and the detectives and coroners talked to me about the whole process and the biological processes of postmortem lividity and the autopsies etc. It was dark, sure, but really fascinating, and at the time I was taking several courses in physiology and anatomy.

 

The relationship with the guy didn't work out, but I have always given him credit for taking me on some really interesting dates that I really appreciated. He also took me to the shooting range a few times.

 

Same here, we were friends for a year before we met in person, but we're even more of an exception because we really were just friends, and neither of us had dating or a relationship in mind until we met and clicked. By the time we met, I knew most of his life story.

 

It's much less awkward to go out to dinner with someone you already know, IMO. There's absolutely none of the "well what if s/he's just using me for a free meal?" bullsh-t. You both already know you enjoy each others' company.

 

Actually, the same is true in my case, more or less. It was really more like eight months, and while we were kind of intrigued with each other on a romantic level, we weren't taking that seriously because we didn't 'believe' in LDR's, especially virtual ones. We both casually dated other people while we were talking to each other and thought it would be insane to consider ourselves anything but friends, although we were obviously already in emotional territory and just not ready to admit it. Then we met in person, and WHAM. I moved to be with him six months later.

 

I've lived in both and it's worse in the states. Take it from a Québécer.

 

I have lived in multiple countries as well, but I don't consider myself a final authority on the culture and dating habits of any of them. I knew the culture and dating habits of the regions I lived in and the circles I moved through, not the entire population of the country.

[Gattica]

Opening and holding a door is common courtest, regardless of gender.

I definitely agree.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Gattica